View Full Version : Julian Assange
walpurgis
16-08-2012, 15:51
The Equadorians should be mightily congratulated for their stance on the Julian Assange matter, regardless of the as yet unproven rights or wrongs of the potential prosecution Assange faces in Sweden. Announcing that he would be given asylum took some guts, as no doubt enormous political and diplomatic pressures have been brought to bear on Equador.
The Americans are being very vindictive as seems to often be their way these days. Blowing the whistle is not a terrorist act!
It makes a real change to see a country 'do the right thing' and not bow down to the bullying techniques of America, who wanted to extradite him from Sweden presumably as soon as he arrived, supposedly to face Sweden's legal process.
Assange's future of course remains uncertain. He can't stay in the Equadorian embassy forever and there's always the chance our government may do something truly crass, like invading the place to remove him.
International law, especially European law must be reviewed and proper humanitarian safeguards introduced.
Our own Gary McKinnon is still battling extradition to America to face charges under anti-terrorism laws, which is ludicrous. He has been diagnosed with mental problems which probably led to his misguided acts, but he's no terrorist. It may be that he's an idiot, but he'd be our idiot and he has not broken English law!
Totally agree Geoff. I get so annoyed with the US for throwing its weight about in such matters when it is demonstrably the most corrupt power in the world. The US got caught with its pants down when Wikileaks released those memos and emails and now it wants some payback. As far as I'm concerned it can go whistle, it is acting like a petulant child which has had its favourite toy confiscated.
As for Gary McKinnon, the crime was committed on British soil so he should be tried in a British court, pure and simple. Besides, if the US military are too fecking lazy to protect their computer systems with passwords then they deserve everything they get... :steam:
And +1 from me to both the above. I wonder if enough sympathisers got together in a concerted action he could be got on an aircraft for Ecuador? I would not rule out the baddies shooting it down or forcing it to land somewhere more sympathetic to their cause (or more obligated to them).
It will be interesting to see how this pans out. This is one instance in which I would welcome Europe getting involved and there aren't many of those :) .
Dave.
Spare a thought too for PFC Bradley Manning who has spent two years in solitary confinement, one of those naked, for passing on the data to Wikileaks. Now whatever your thoughts about his motives, the guy is effectively on remand and nobody deserves to be treated in this manner under such circumstances. They are effectively punishing him for a crime for which he has yet to be convicted. Any country that still employs the death penalty has a cheek to call itself 'civilised' IMHO...
bobbasrah
16-08-2012, 16:49
Agreed on all the above, whether or not the case against him is justifiable.
What is particularly telling is that neither the Swedish nor UK governments would give an undertaking that he would not be extradited to the US.
sq225917
16-08-2012, 17:48
All the US want to do is to scare Assange shitless. They can't try him, he hasn't done anything. The longer he puts off going to Sweden the longer he is out of action for and that is all they want to stop Wikileaks and the best way to do this is to ensure he stays in charge but paralysed with fear from being able to do anything.
He needs to man up and face the charges in Sweden, erroneous or not,
All the US want to do is to scare Assange shitless. They can't try him, he hasn't done anything.
You must be joking!!:eek::scratch: . They'd much rather get their hands on him, then they can ensure he's under control. While ever he remains outside their jurisdiction they cannot be sure what might come out next. They don't have to try him, they just have to keep him out of circulation - Guantanamo Bay ring any bells?
What puzzles me is that surely Wikileaks is not simply a 'one manband'? Why hasn't someone else come out with more leaks, that would surely blow a small hole in their wish to keep him quiet?
Dave.
JazzBones
17-08-2012, 10:48
What I find absolutely unacceptable is the way that the UK is seen as America's aircraft carrier. When the US commander in chief says, 'get your butt up here immediately' the cabin boys, our prime ministers and foreign secretaries, are up the ladder to the top deck saluting the commander and waiting for orders.
When I watch Americans place their right hand on their hearts and sing, 'land of the free', I can't help but look on with sadness at such utter bullshit!
Did you know that the USA planned to go to war against Britain in 1930 as they were jealous of the empire and Britiain's world influence, they wanted some of the action. USA bases were placed along the Canadian border, a Commonwealth member (to be attacked first) and a two prong attack across the Pacific to knock out Australia, New Zealand and othe British posts. There was also an attack planned across the Atlantic to take out Britain!!!! The USA power of the day even had talks with Adolf Hitler who was increasing his power in Germany but AH turned the Americans down thinking it was not a good idea at the time.
A BBC TV programme was aired about this and you will find more info on Google search... that is if it hasn't been deleted by powers known :(
There are good and bad people in ALL countries but why does the White House and Pentagon have the right tell the World what it should do and not do in the twenty first century?
anthonyTD
17-08-2012, 11:03
The Equadorians should be mightily congratulated for their stance on the Julian Assange matter, regardless of the as yet unproven rights or wrongs of the potential prosecution Assange faces in Sweden. Announcing that he would be given asylum took some guts, as no doubt enormous political and diplomatic pressures have been brought to bear on Equador.
The Americans are being very vindictive as seems to often be their way these days. Blowing the whistle is not a terrorist act!
It makes a real change to see a country 'do the right thing' and not bow down to the bullying techniques of America, who wanted to extradite him from Sweden presumably as soon as he arrived, supposedly to face Sweden's legal process.
Assange's future of course remains uncertain. He can't stay in the Equadorian embassy forever and there's always the chance our government may do something truly crass, like invading the place to remove him.
International law, especially European law must be reviewed and proper humanitarian safeguards introduced.
Our own Gary McKinnon is still battling extradition to America to face charges under anti-terrorism laws, which is ludicrous. He has been diagnosed with mental problems which probably led to his misguided acts, but he's no terrorist. It may be that he's an idiot, but he'd be our idiot and he has not broken English law!
+1
A...
!
Did you know that the USA planned to go to war against Britain in 1930 as they were jealous of the empire and Britiain's world influence, they wanted some of the action. USA bases were placed along the Canadian border, a Commonwealth member (to be attacked first) and a two prong attack across the Pacific to knock out Australia, New Zealand and othe British posts. There was also an attack planned across the Atlantic to take out Britain!!!! The USA power of the day even had talks with Adolf Hitler who was increasing his power in Germany but AH turned the Americans down thinking it was not a good idea at the time.
?
It is a good tale but alas not even remotely credible.
sq225917
17-08-2012, 15:12
It's certainly time that extradition treaties with the US were torn up.
Very telling that none of the posts above mention the women he is alleged to have assaulted in Sweden.....Don't they deserve some justice too ??
JazzBones
17-08-2012, 15:25
It is a good tale but alas not even remotely credible.
Dig around, you'll find info.
Ecuador does not really have great human rights I think their reasons might not be what we expect
Sorry I think the Swedish Justice system is pretty fair compaired to most countries in the world
. . . none of the posts above mention the women he is alleged to have assaulted in Sweden . . .
This plain and very obvious fact seems to get conveniently forgotten all the time, which I find rather disappointing. Whatever you feel about the US, Equador, Sweden, the UK Government or the rights and wrongs of what Assange may or may not have done, we have a legal obligation to return him to Sweden for trial - that's the simple truth of it.
If we fail to at least try and full-fill that obligation, we have let ourselves down as a so called 'civilised and law abiding' nation. Assange and his team are clearly very astute and very determined to try and deflect away from this fact and the posts here, together with the media reporting demonstrate its working.
I hope we don't cock it up and do the wrong thing, but I fear we will.
Very telling that none of the posts above mention the women he is alleged to have assaulted in Sweden.....Don't they deserve some justice too ??
No, not really telling, they are only alleged assaults so not been really scrutinised - they may well just be trumped up like a lot of the allegations against him IMO, just to put him in a bad light for Joe Public and reduce public sympathy for him. If he ever is tried by a Swedish court and found guilty then certainly they deserve some justice but not just because of alleged crimes.
Strange that they only came to light after the Americans were upset don't you think?
Dave.
Its up to the court to scrutise them
Its up to the court to scrutise them
Exactly John and we ignore that at our peril.
Beechwoods
17-08-2012, 17:47
Assange is an ego-driven glory seeker, with a definite taste for liaisons dangereuses. Whether he did what he's alleged to have done or not is indeed for a court to decide, but you can bet your bottom dollar, if he were to be extradited to Sweden, he'd be arrested and held for trial for his crimes not against his alleged female victims, but for those against the US military-industrial machine. I understand him wanting to avoid *that*.
As far as his Wikileaks activities are concerned, I'm pretty conflicted about them. It started as a fine venture, but through the luck and good fortune of finding one person with access to a huge trove of military secrets, and a troubled mental state, they were able to blow open all manner of confidential material. Some of this was in the public interest (the video footage of intentional attacks on unarmed civilians, journalists a clear example) but much of it was only of value to those troubled / 'pariah' states who now knew exactly who to target as informers, agents etc. I wonder how many good people in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea, Burma have died as a result of the unredacted disclosures made by Wikileaks.
Even the Guardian, who worked with Wikileaks to release redacted excerpts of key revelations balked at the subsequent release of unredacted material. Wikileaks' lack of fraternal support for Bradley Manning is shocking, and just goes to show how Wikileaks is more a vanity project than a real service to mankind, or even a community-based initiative.
Sorry to disagree with some of the opening posts, but what about the rights of the females supposedly sexually assaulted? I thought in law abiding countries that everyone has a right to a fair trial, and I'm reasonably confident that Sweden can offer that.
Why on earth is a second-rate banana republic with a very questionable human rights record interested in protecting him, rather than allowing the machinery of justice to do its thing? I sincerely hope that Hague can keep his word and not allow, under any circumstances, Assange to escape the country. Who are we going to stand with - Equador or Sweden? I know which country I would rather trust.
As for Assange's sycophantic acolytes, oh dear. Their childish chanting said it all for me.
Didn't he turn out to be a bit of a muppet?
Who are we going to stand with - Equador or Sweden? I know which country I would rather trust.
I share your view on which country I would rather trust. Howver, not arguing, just expressing a possible alternative point of view, but if the USA were intent on getting their way (not an unusual attitude for them) on which country would any pressure they could bring to bear have more result?
Might is not always right, particularly in world politics.
Dave.
walpurgis
17-08-2012, 20:54
Very telling that none of the posts above mention the women he is alleged to have assaulted in Sweden.....Don't they deserve some justice too ??
I think you and others seem to have completely missed the point.
What would mentioning the women making allegations against Assange have to do with this? That's not what this is about. I did not start the thread to discuss what Assange may or may not have allegedly done.
The issue is how the whole thing is being dealt with.
If he was sent back to Sweden and only face his accusers, I'd have no problem with that. Its the overbearing and unjust way the Americans are misusing legislation that was intended to be used against real terrorist suspects, just so they can extradite people who have pissed them off that gets my goat! And our government's inevitable collusion is something we should all be disgusted with.
The USA's bullying behaviour is something we've had to deal with since the 2nd world war.
I'd still rather our government collude with another that wants to bring a man accused of rape to trial.
I fear though but can't know for sure that the offenses he may be charged with are totally trumped up for poltical reasons. It's so hard to know what is real in this case but gut instinct tells me the US are deeply involved.
Also, not that it helps much, I believe the potential charges would not be rape in the UK, Swedish definitions are different to ours.
I understand distrust of the USA's intentions, but I can't see the Swedes being swayed so easily.
I understand distrust of the USA's intentions, but I can't see the Swedes being swayed so easily.
The Swedes are very correct but it could be the accusers who are being swayed, not their very correct legal system.
Besides, somewhere along the line the 'charges' against Assange (which have never been officially filed by the way) have been reduced from rape to sexual assault. It also needs to be said that the Ecuadorians have said on several occasions that Sweden can send people over to interview Assange about the case. The Swedes have turned these offers down flat without explanation. If the Swedes really had the two women's best interests at heart then surely they would have accepted these offers. This all stinks of political machinations and scare tactics to get Assange out in the open.
Besides, somewhere along the line the 'charges' against Assange (which have never been officially filed by the way) have been reduced from rape to sexual assault. It also needs to be said that the Ecuadorians have said on several occasions that Sweden can send people over to interview Assange about the case. The Swedes have turned these offers down flat without explanation. If the Swedes really had the two women's best interests at heart then surely they would have accepted these offers. This all stinks of political machinations and scare tactics to get Assange out in the open.
Am shocked that you imply sexual assault is such a trivial thing. If Assange had the best interests of the women at heart, he would man up and go to Sweden to answer the charges.
Am shocked that you imply sexual assault is such a trivial thing. If Assange had the best interests of the women at heart, he would man up and go to Sweden to answer the charges.
Where is the implication that sexual assault is such a trivial thing because I didn't pick it up? :scratch:
Where is the implication that sexual assault is such a trivial thing because I didn't pick it up? :scratch:
Right here Dave;
Besides, somewhere along the line the 'charges' against Assange (which have never been officially filed by the way) have been reduced from rape to sexual assault.
The implication I got from that is that it's not as important, others seem to have drawn that conclusion too.
Right here Dave;
The implication I got from that is that it's not as important, others seem to have drawn that conclusion too.
Fair enough, I don't think it's as important either, but I don't interpret that reduction in importance as trivialising it.
Would I prefer to be raped or sexually assaulted, I'll take sexual assault any day (depending on who's doing it of course :lol: ) but I would not call it a trivial offence in any way - trivial offences are what you get a lecture from the local 'law' for to behave yourself in future - entirely unappropriate for sexual assault IMHO.
Dave.
walpurgis
18-08-2012, 10:25
Am shocked that you imply sexual assault is such a trivial thing. If Assange had the best interests of the women at heart, he would man up and go to Sweden to answer the charges.
Again, somebody is missing the point.
The charges are not the issue. Its way America is manipulating anti-terrorist laws and leaning on the British and Swedish governments to get their own way that is in contention.
Fair enough, I don't think it's as important either.
Good grief . . . I frankly find that astonishing - I'm outta this one and I hope no women are reading this :(
walpurgis
18-08-2012, 10:27
Besides, somewhere along the line the 'charges' against Assange (which have never been officially filed by the way) have been reduced from rape to sexual assault. It also needs to be said that the Ecuadorians have said on several occasions that Sweden can send people over to interview Assange about the case. The Swedes have turned these offers down flat without explanation. If the Swedes really had the two women's best interests at heart then surely they would have accepted these offers. This all stinks of political machinations and scare tactics to get Assange out in the open.
Spot on!
Good grief . . . I frankly find that astonishing - I'm outta this one and I hope no women are reading this :(
It's not only women who are sexually assaulted.
All crimes of this type are bad but some are more bad than others. Was it Ken Clarke that got into trouble for saying something like this? If all these crimes are equally bad then all sentences would be the same......there has to be a matter of degree.
It's not only women who are sexually assaulted.
Indeed Clive, but I was responding within the context of this thread and the outstanding allegations against Assange, which relate to women.
walpurgis
18-08-2012, 10:37
Good grief . . . I frankly find that astonishing - I'm outta this one and I hope no women are reading this :(
I, on the other hand, hope there are female members following the thread.
Assange, in all probablility may have a case to answer back in Sweden. I don't know the details. If there are genuine charges of a sexual nature for him to face, then of course every sympathy should go with whatever victims there may be and I am totally in favour of his answering to the law in his own country.
But he should not be sent to America by Sweden or this country and there should be assurances obtained before he leaves the UK!
Indeed Clive, but I was responding within the context of this thread and the outstanding allegations against Assange, which relate to women.
I take your point Tim but as an example there was a male recently who came forward about being raped; being given the courage to do so by a Corrie storyline about a woman being raped. If the allegations are true then it's the 2 women involved who we should be concerned about. I don't suppose they are reading this thread. Anyway we're splitting hairs....
Good grief . . . I frankly find that astonishing - I'm outta this one and I hope no women are reading this :(
Tim,
I think there may be some misunderstanding here on someone's part, maybe even mine :) . In the interests of clarity, all I was trying to say was that I do not think sexual assault is as serious a crime as rape. I thought my further light hearted comment made that clear but if not I apologise :) .
Dave.
bobbasrah
18-08-2012, 11:20
Ultimately the swedish and/or uk government could have given guarantees that Assange would only be extradited for the stated enquiry and any subsequent trial without fear of US extradition, or indeed interviewed in the UK with extradition where there was a case to answer.
I suspect that the US would not now dare attempt to extradite given the publicity, but given the role of WMD in recent history, honesty in government can be a dangerous assumption.
walpurgis
18-08-2012, 11:49
Ultimately the swedish and/or uk government could have given guarantees that Assange would only be extradited for the stated enquiry and any subsequent trial without fear of US extradition, or indeed interviewed in the UK with extradition where there was a case to answer.
I suspect that the US would not now dare attempt to extradite given the publicity, but given the role of WMD in recent history, honesty in government can be a dangerous assumption.
Don't agree. Assange will end up in the States. His basic freedoms and human rights will be trampled on. Wait and see.
aquapiranha
18-08-2012, 11:52
This is all about the US getting revenge. People should read up on the charges against him in Sweden - I am sure I read somewhere the charges are very specific and something about not using a condom? Dunno but I guarantee the US want to make an example of him ad they do with that other bloke, the hacker with aspergers syndrome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange#Allegations_of_sexual_assault
anthonyTD
18-08-2012, 12:16
Hi All,
Reading through a lot of the comments here I still agree with Geoff's first post, This is not about the alleged assaults on the two women, if it were I would be among the first to condemn him, and his actions, I would like to think that none of us here are that naive to think it is, but there again?
The man in question for what ever reasons known only to him decided to become a one man' or one entity machine to expose sensitive material to the general public, now this may or may not have been done purely for the good of mankind, but he did it, and the people who he has scorned will not take it on the chin, they cannot, as it will leave the door wide open for other like minded to follow suit, they cant let that happen, so need as always to make as a big an example of this person as possible, hopefully, then no one would have the guts or determination to do the same in future, personally I ask, is that what we really want ? Is that the world we want to live in?
A...
Good grief . . . I frankly find that astonishing - I'm outta this one and I hope no women are reading this :(
Tim, I understand why you are upset but the facts are the facts. If Assange is convicted of sexual assault then he would receive a lesser sentence than if he were convicted of rape, so even the law delineates between the two crimes, which was the point I was trying to make. Personally I believe the alleged crimes were manufactured after the event as a means to lasso Assange and drag him out into the open where the US can get their greasy mitts on him.
The question I ask myself is would the USA and Sweden go to all this trouble if this was just a sexual assault charge. :scratch:
It's not even a charge as yet John, they just want to question him.
morris_minor
18-08-2012, 15:33
If we have a legally ratified extradition treaty with Sweden then we are obliged to honour it.
But if our police enter the Ecuadorian embassy we might as well kiss goodbye to all our embassies in banana republics and rogue states around the world. Russia, Iran, Syria etc will take any such action as we take as carte blanche to trample on our "rights".
Whatever anyone feels about one particular case, if we don't obey the rule of law we can never expect anyone else to.
It pains me to agree with muppet William Hague and all his fellow cameroonian lackies, but he's right on this one....
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
walpurgis
18-08-2012, 18:35
Glad to see a few more cogent posts. There have been some really odd and diagonally off topic examples.
Geoff.
sq225917
18-08-2012, 18:55
I don't think we do have an extradition treaty with Sweden and even if we did Assange has not been charged with anything so it probably wouldn't take effect. What they've used is the European arrest warrant, but that should only really be used for people who have an arrest warrant out for them and as Assange hasn't been charged in Sweden, he can't be under arrest in Sweden. So the use of EAW in this way is a little odd. (The UK judges upheld it though).
If they want to interview him, then they either need to give him an assurance he will not be extradited or subject to extraordinary rendition if he goes to Sweden. Doesn't seem too difficult does it? Hell they could even come to the UK to interview him, the offer from Assange still stands.
Cos the trouble is, Sweden have knowingly allowed US flights to land and go through their airspace where people onboard were basically being kidnapped and taken to the US. Make no doubt about it, extraordinary rendition is exactly that, kidnap without due legal process.
I want to see Assange answer the potential charges against him. He's of dubious moral character that is for sure. But I don't want to see him have to risk his life to do this. Especially given the protracted- charges, dropped charges, re-opended charges situation he has already been through. Let's not forget he was in Sweden when the prospect of sexual assault charges were originally raised and only left after the prosecutor decided there was no case to answer.
He's being done over, no doubt about that. But I genuinely think he is too hot for the US just to grab.
Good point there SQ. If he can stay in the headlines and on the news it makes it all the harder for them to just bundle him away. If you are nobody they can have you off to Gitmo in a heartbeat and the total coulmn inches devoted to you will be zero.
The wider problem imo (and the EAW is just a part of that, very scary bit of legislation) is that people simply don't appreciate that national governments are just a big mob organization in reality. They do not care for human rights or the rule of law although they are happy to pay lip service to them. Ultimately they can simply do anything they need to and you will never hear about it because it is not in the 'national interest' to tell you.
I am surprised the outrage over the U.S. wanting to punish a slug who would have done the same thing to England if he had so chosen.
I am surprised the outrage over the U.S. wanting to punish a slug who would have done the same thing to England if he had so chosen.
Bashing the USA is a sport amongst a lot of people in the UK. A shame really. The obvious retort is 'without the U.S we would all be speaking Russian and parading once a year past a 50 foot statue of Stalin placed where Big Ben once stood.'
Except that a lot of them would have quite liked that outcome.;)
The difference being Jeff that we are glad Assange did it because our governments are dishonest, money grabbing, dangerous arseholes which was proved when the documents were out in the open...
I am surprised the outrage over the U.S. wanting to punish a slug who would have done the same thing to England if he had so chosen.
I agree with you there Jeff - I wonder how many of the people who constantly rebuke the US have actually been there or have any friends that are American? A government alone does not make a country - we of all people should know that and we don't have a history to be that proud of anyway. Makes for interesting reading though, whichever side of the fence you sit on ;)
I was under the opinion we were talking about the government Tim... :scratch:
I was under the opinion we were talking about the government Tim... :scratch:
Just ignore me Dave, best to really after a few Coronas . . . hot weather and booze makes me ramble :eyebrows:
I understand our government is self serving.
But I do believe we are the first superpower in history that has not expanded into other country's.
My outrage is corruption and greed, it seems Wall Street and our government are one and the same.
And don't even get me started how much we have borrowed from other nations that went directly to contributors to a certain campaign.
We are now on par with Mexico and Pakistan when it comes to corruption.
Beechwoods
18-08-2012, 21:20
I think your location pretty much sums up the dim view you hold your government in, Jeff!
WOStantonCS100
18-08-2012, 22:34
Though I don't agree with Obama-hate, as indeed, most presidents we've had, certainly since JFK's doing in, if not before, are puppets of the larger corporate/political/military evil empire; an empire that completely ignores the will of the people whilst fooling them into believing they are making decisions for the "good of the people".
Yet, behind closed doors (and blatantly in front of them sometimes), many players from many nations want, expect and even demand that America continue to "police" the world so long as it provides them with back pocket loot. I think they call that "friends with benefits". We all know that. It's nothing new. It's just that in the age of information, the dirty laundry is so mountainous that it's impossible to keep it hidden under the rug.
Where does one turn when the whole world is corrupt? I digress.
As far as Julian and Ecuador are concerned, I have a suspicion they are both ultimately going to be used as puppets. I mean, are they really the problem? Or, is the problem the state of all of our governments and the self-serving greed of those who get to make systemic decisions. To hell in a hand basket it's going. The entrenchments are deep, deep, deep.
If you've got a wry sense of humour, it makes for good entertainment sometimes (not often; but, sometimes). :popcorn: ...so long as I don't let any of these feckers control my mind, if you know what I mean.
I think your location pretty much sums up the dim view you hold your government in, Jeff!
My hope is that we will elect a new president,one who is unafraid to dissmantal years of government regulations preventing us from manufacturing,building new industry and opening businesses.
Our immigration policy is insane, and everyone expects the government to put there kids through collage,put them in a house,pay there medical and support them when they grow old. Everyone expects a check from the government.
We can't keep doing this, We know of a family that came here from Iran,the father is very old and can't work,he never worked a day in this country but gets social security retirement.
We need to become self reliant, Free means free to fail too.
The government is becoming to powerful because people abandon there resposiabilitys to it, empowering government over individualism.
When you depend on some one to meet all your needs you become there slave.
Or, is the problem the state of all of our governments and the self-serving greed of those who get to make systemic decisions.
Amen to that. Distrusting any politician these days is a healthy state of mind.
StanleyB
19-08-2012, 08:54
My hope is that we will elect a new president,one who is unafraid to dissmantal years of government regulations preventing us from manufacturing,building new industry and opening businesses.
Our immigration policy is insane, and everyone expects the government to put there kids through collage,put them in a house,pay there medical and support them when they grow old. Everyone expects a check from the government.
[]
We need to become self reliant, Free means free to fail too.
[]
Those kind of policies are widely practised in South America and Africa. It has not helped many of them to get oit of financial trouble.
The freedom to build new industries and manufacture whatever you want is heavily practised in China. The result has been land grabs by those in power and ever increasing pollution of the Yangtze river.
But what exactly is the US going to manufacture that would increase wealth in the economy? Would Apple etc. switch to manufacturing in the US or more US companies start building consumer electronic goods in the US instead of importing them from the Far East? Perhaps the pharmaceutical companies would manufacture drugs in the US instead of across the border in Mexico? Somehow I doubt that very much.
Biff, I think you're 100% right in your summation in that it equally well applies to the UK IMHO. Like the Bankers this 'axis of evil' (fair, as far as the general population is concerned?) of Big Business, Bankers, Politicians and the 'Establishment' will take things too far and the worm will turn, with God alone knows what consequences.
I fear for the future, I really do, with greedy barstewards running the country as if it's their personal fiefdom and nutters both here and abroad wanting to impose their very different way of life on us. And guess who'll be called on again to sort that mess out, again :steam: - that seems to be our (the general public) roll in life throughout history, to protect the interests of those at the top from other equally evilly motivated at the top of another country from doing a takeover bid.
Thank God my kids are childless (so far :) ) as I'm not sure what sort of world they will inherit
Rant over - enjoy your Sunday :) .
Dave.
.
walpurgis
19-08-2012, 09:56
A lot of the foregoing posts sound promising. Have we got enough disenfrachised souls here to start a world revolution yet?
Nothing would be nicer than seeing the grasping, corporate powermongers and their government lackeys put in their place (maybe up against a wall facing a firing squad, not that I'd advocate such a thing of course).
Naturally, this would destroy the world economy, but I'm sure we'd muddle through after years of territory wars, genocide, starvation and deprivation.
Geoff.
The world economy will collapse when the EU does, can't be long now. It's what may follow that is of concern to me. The danger here is that we might see powerful corporations attempt to form a world government from the ashes...
We may not have to worry about all this after all - a scientist on the TV has just said that the earth appears to be about to go into it's usual 'trick' of reversing it's magnetic field which it does apparently every 10,000 years or so. Apart from confusing our compasses and SatNavs (:lol: ;) ) it will remove our protection from solar radiation which will 'fry' everybody for a few hundred years until it restabilises again and Australia becomes to be in the Northern hemisphere.
One benefit is that we shall all 'fry' together :lol: .
Enjoy your Sunday ;) .
Dave.
bobbasrah
19-08-2012, 10:37
The world economy will collapse when the EU does, can't be long now. It's what may follow that is of concern to me. The danger here is that we might see powerful corporations attempt to form a world government from the ashes...
And what makes you think such a situation is not effectively in place now ?:scratch:
I love the irish for their healthy disrespect of authority, and it keeps their politicians broadly in check with public opinion. :D
Revolutions have a nasty habit of reminding the powers that be that they only have 'their' power on loan.....:eyebrows:
Have we got enough disenfrachised souls here to start a world revolution yet?
We saw enough of how disenfranchised people behave last year in the London riots.
We saw enough of how disenfranchised people behave last year in the London riots.
Don't make excuses for them. They are not disenfranchised, just amoral. Even someone from a sink estate with no father and no money can better themselves in this country if they have the desire. I a not syaing it is easy, but the opportunity is there, unlike many other countries. Here, the infrastructure exists in spades to enable people to do that. Egypt or Syria - now that is an example of disenfranchised people rising up.
A case of: If it happens on our own soil they're just yobs whereas if it happens elsewhere they are fighting for their rights? That doesn't work for me Martin :rolleyes:
A case of: If it happens on our own soil they're just yobs whereas if it happens elsewhere they are fighting for their rights? That doesn't work for me Martin :rolleyes:
Not what I said. My point is some people in the world are truly oppressed and you cannot blame them for rising up. That does not apply in this country, although people like to pretend it does in order to justify certian actions. Looting and arson, for example.
StanleyB
19-08-2012, 12:18
My point is some people in the world are truly oppressed and you cannot blame them for rising up. That does not apply in this country, although people like to pretend it does in order to justify certian actions.
Have you ever looked at the "stop and search" figures and noticed any thing unusual in the percentage of them carried out on the basis of the ethnic make up in the UK?
Have you also noticed how students wishing to go to university have suddenly found themselves having to pay for the privilege whilst those who made the decision to implement the change never had to pay unless it was private education? The students did not rise up just for the fun of it but because they feel oppressed.
Don't make excuses for them. They are not disenfranchised, just amoral. Even someone from a sink estate with no father and no money can better themselves in this country if they have the desire. I a not syaing it is easy, but the opportunity is there, unlike many other countries. Here, the infrastructure exists in spades to enable people to do that. Egypt or Syria - now that is an example of disenfranchised people rising up.
Oh I wasn't, Martin. Missed irony alert. I thought they were scumbags the lot of them and hope every last one has been caught.
StanleyB
19-08-2012, 12:46
As I understand it the Arab Spring was a consequence of young people not being able to find a job since there were none to be had.
I am not sure that young people in this country have far better chances at this moment in time.
If you are unemployed in this country you are still provided with rent and living allowance, you can also access free educational courses and aquire qualifications. People take this for granted. In reality these opportunities do not exist in most of the world.
As for students in this country being 'oppressed' - that gave me a big laugh. I would like to abandon a couple of the more vocal ones on the streets of Calcutta and let them fend for themselves for a week or two. They might come back to the UK with just a little bit more gratitude for their lucky accident of birth.
We may not have to worry about all this after all - a scientist on the TV has just said that the earth appears to be about to go into it's usual 'trick' of reversing it's magnetic field which it does apparently every 10,000 years or so. Apart from confusing our compasses and SatNavs (:lol: ;) ) it will remove our protection from solar radiation which will 'fry' everybody for a few hundred years until it restabilises again and Australia becomes to be in the Northern hemisphere.
One benefit is that we shall all 'fry' together :lol: .
Enjoy your Sunday ;) .
Dave.
Any idea when as i'am bidding on a couple of items that finish tonight.:doh:
. . . it will remove our protection from solar radiation which will 'fry' everybody for a few hundred years . . .
. . . omg, what should I do, where shall I hide, please somebody help me . . . should I put tin foil on my head?
I know, I'll take my computer with me, then I'll be OK, wherever I go
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/450x338px-LL-0b73cf22_case-body-mod.jpg
:eyebrows:
Yep, you'll be able to scrobble to the last, Tim...
Guys, there is no doubt that these 'scumbags' as someone called them were very wrong in their behaviour and I do not condone any of it for one moment, so get that straight, OK? :) . But shouldn't we all see it as a warning as to what might happen when a big group of people do feel disenfanchised and deprived. We may not share that view, and with good reason, but that is irrelevant IMO - if they feel that way that will influence how they react to society. Put into that mix the natural 'wrong 'uns' who see an opportunity to take advantage of such a situation if it should happen, and they come from all 'walks' of society based on last year's events, and you have a fairly potent and volatile mix.
In this country we are policed with the consent of the policed and when that consent is withdrawn the police don't stand a chance of bringing things under control as we all saw last year. That lot was caused by a relatively small core of really frustrated people - imagine what might happen if a much bigger proportion of society begins to feel that the only way to get what they think is their share is to do the same and take it by ay means available - can you see our army firing on our citizens? - I hope it never comes to that.
Dave.
Going to get even tougher too Dave by 2015, when we will have around 20% less police around than there was last summer.
Still, I'll just hide in a cave and scrobble :lol:
The first night of the rioting I was watching it on TV at a friends and remarked to him that if the Police continued to stand off and do nothing they would be making a rod for their own backs. The lack of response simply emboldened the rioters and the use of social media 'come down here now and take what you want the police aint doing nuffink' meant that word spread very quickly to anyone who might be inclined to take part.
It was not a riot about social or economic conditions. It was a looting spree. Nothing more.
Any idea when as i'am bidding on a couple of items that finish tonight.:doh:
Think you should be alright with them ;) but I don't know whether you'll actually get a chance to use them :lol: . Certainly I would avoid bidding on anything that closes later than 7 days hence, just in case :lol: .
Enjoy 'em while you can ;) .
Dave.
If you are unemployed in this country you are still provided with rent and living allowance, you can also access free educational courses and aquire qualifications. People take this for granted. In reality these opportunities do not exist in most of the world.
As for students in this country being 'oppressed' - that gave me a big laugh. I would like to abandon a couple of the more vocal ones on the streets of Calcutta and let them fend for themselves for a week or two. They might come back to the UK with just a little bit more gratitude for their lucky accident of birth.
Isn’t that a bit like a wealthy Baron who has given his peasants shoes so they can work in his fields saying to the peasants when they ask for a fairer share of the profit; I could always take your shoes away.
You have the expectations that the society you live in teaches you.
It was not a riot about social or economic conditions. It was a looting spree. Nothing more.
No Martin, I suspect you may be wrong - that is certainly what it degenerated into but it was not that when it started. You may of course believe what you choose to believe and the future may even prove you to be right - I certainly hope so - but I would not ignore the possibility that you might be wrong.
If and when it all kicks off again past experience shows us that no one and nothing is safe from being 'done over' so start looking for your cave now is my advice :lol: .
Dave.
StanleyB
19-08-2012, 13:56
It was not a riot about social or economic conditions. It was a looting spree. Nothing more.
As I recall it was the cold blooded execution of Mark Dugan that started it off.
The officers involved have so far refused to give evidence as to what happened. If you and me would refuse to give evidence we would spend time in prison for obstructing justice.
As I recall it was the cold blooded execution of Mark Dugan that started it off.
The officers involved have so far refused to give evidence as to what happened. If you and me would refuse to give evidence we would spend time in prison for obstructing justice.
Perhaps they could have sought refuge in a foreign embassy rather than give evidence ???
As I recall it was the cold blooded execution of Mark Dugan that started it off.
The officers involved have so far refused to give evidence as to what happened. If you and me would refuse to give evidence we would spend time in prison for obstructing justice.
Mmmm, you're right Stan - all gone quiet on that subject hasn't it? Doesn't help those feeling deprived and disenfranchised to feel any better about their lot does it? :scratch: .
Dave.
I'm a bit stunned at your reaction Martin (Macca) to tell the truth. It's a bit dangerous to dismiss such events as pure yobbery, there is always a reason these things kick off (take the riots in the '80's for example which were down to Police stop and search tactics, sound familiar?). With the political, economic and social problems we are currently experiencing there's a danger it could all spark off again as the government continue to turn the screws... :scratch:
Mmmm, you're right Stan - all gone quiet on that subject hasn't it? Doesn't help those feeling deprived and disenfranchised to feel any better about their lot does it? :scratch: .
Dave.
How are these people deprived or disenfranchised? They are eligible to vote in elections. They can peacefully protest. They can meetand comunicate freely. They have their x box 360 and plasma screens. There are jobs if they want to work (they may be shit jobs but everyone has to start somewhere) and there are handouts if they choose not to. They can opt to enter education and gain qualifications. They can volunteer and gain experience.
The simple fact is that all sounds too much like hard work. Much easier to listen to those enablers who tell them they are deprived and disenfranchised and so justifiy their criminal and amoral actions.
You make a lot of assumptions in your post Martin... :doh:
Me, Dave? I'm sorry but I had not a shred of sympathy for the rioters. These people live in a welfare state, FFS. It's not as if they ever need to actually starve.
It's up to every individual to get up off their backsides and make something of their lives. Instead they waste every day doing nothing of worth and then rise up when they smell blood. I'm making no reference to the trigger event as I simply don't know enough about it, but these scumbags caused untold misery to many law-abiding people who had their posessions taken and their property smashed. All my sympathy is with them.
There are jobs if they want to work (they may be shit jobs but everyone has to start somewhere)
Indeed there are. We have new cleaners starting almost every week and they work hard for their crust. Don't anyone tell you there are no jobs to be had; what they really mean is there are no jobs they want. Something quite different.
StanleyB
19-08-2012, 14:36
They can peacefully protest. They can meet and comunicate freely.
So why is the UK the most spied upon society in the world?
They have their x box 360 and plasma screens.
A very generalized comment. Of all the poor people and unemployed youngsters that I know of, none of them has a plasma screen.
There are jobs if they want to work (they may be shit jobs but everyone has to start somewhere) and there are handouts if they choose not to.
Have you paid any attention to how many applicants there are for any single job going? Have you also heard about the back to work scheme and A4e? Many businesses are not making money right now and are not hiring staff as a consequence.
Actually I was referring to Macca's post MT but I'll take yours on too. Making assumptions that the entire body of rioters were unemployed is incredibly dangerous. The riots began because some people were rightfully pissed off about how the Police handled the Duggan situation. As is always the case during riots you get the great unwashed joining in because that is what they do, but the underlying reasons for what happened last year are important and need to be addressed. The riots became a protest about a lot of things in the end, but this country needs to sit up and take note of how the majority of the general public are feeling just now or next time it could be even worse.
It is the nature of the beast that innocent people end up being affected by riots. Ultimately the authorities are responsible for what happens in their own manor, and if they can't take the heat then they either need to pull their socks up or get out of the kitchen...
I'm going to butt out of this now because I am getting mightily angry... :steam:
How are these people deprived or disenfranchised? They are eligible to vote in elections. They can peacefully protest. They can meetand comunicate freely. They have their x box 360 and plasma screens.
Cynical, to say the least
There are jobs if they want to work (they may be shit jobs but everyone has to start somewhere) .
Martin, the last time I saw the relevant figures (earlier this week) in round figures 1m job vacancies and either 2.5 or 3.5m unemployed. Still, you're not one of those without, so that's OK then :scratch: .
Dave
So why is the UK the most spied upon society in the world?
Tell that to someone who grew up in Soviet Eastern Europe and watch their eyes widen with amazement.
A very generalized comment. Of all the poor people and unemployed youngsters that I know of, none of them has a plasma screen.
True - I was playing to the gallery a bit with that one.
Have you paid any attention to how many applicants there are for any single job going? Have you also heard about the back to work scheme and A4e? Many businesses are not making money right now and are not hiring staff as a consequence.
Call up one of the agencies who advertise in your local paper. Tell them you will do any work, any hours anywhere in a 10 mile radius and yes you have your own steel toe capped boots. You will be working within hours
.
As I said: there are jobs out there. Strangely, it's only the Poles and Latvians and Ukrainians that take them. Make of that what you will.
I'm going to butt out of this now because I am getting mightily angry... :steam:
Okay lets leave it then. I don't fall out with anyone over politics or money. Women - now that's different... :)
Me, Dave? I'm sorry but I had not a shred of sympathy for the rioters. These people live in a welfare state, FFS. It's not as if they ever need to actually starve.
So Martin, that's your 'line in the sand' then is it? - "sod 'em all until they're starving". Ever heard of "There but for the grace of God go I?" Only an accident of birth prevented it, nothing you can claim any credit for.
Of course there are those for whom your lack of sympathy is appropriate but I suspect they are the minority, rather than the total.
Dave.
As I said: there are jobs out there. Strangely, it's only the Poles and Latvians and Ukrainians that take them. Make of that what you will.
And what reliable source of evidence do you base that assertion on? - or is it just convenient hearsay?
On the same hearsay evidence many of your eager Poles, Latvians and Ukrainians are illegal immigrants being exploited by their own people, living 50 to a box and paying all their meagre wages to their slavemasters - they have no real choice but to work for sh1t wages, nothing to do with work ethic - but that bit of 'evidence' does nothing to support your PoV so can be ignored I take it?
Take your head out of the sand Martin, before it's too late, is my best intentioned advice to you.
Dave.
And what reliable source of evidence do you base that assertion on?
My direct observation. My employer maintains a workforce of cleaners. I see new ones arrive and others leave since I generate the security IDs for them. I know where each one is from. In the last three years, we have taken on one British national, and in the region of 15 Poles, Latvians and Ukrainians.
Our interview process is entirely unbiased and conducted by my boss who is British. We simply don't get the applicants from this country. Oh, and all workers have to submits passports as is common for all companies these days.
My direct observation. My employer maintains a workforce of cleaners. I see new ones arrive and others leave since I generate the security IDs for them. I know where each one is from. In the last three years, we have taken on one British national, and in the region of 15 Poles, Latvians and Ukrainians.
Our interview process is entirely unbiased and conducted by my boss who is British. We simply don't get the applicants from this country. Oh, and all workers have to submits passports as is common for all companies these days.
And your response to the second paragraph of my post, or does that aspect not concern you?
Dave.
Beechwoods
19-08-2012, 15:38
I'm with the Martins on this. I guess I better get my head out of the sand too. Living in central Bristol you get to see a lot of things that harden to you to welfare dependency. I know my views have changed since I moved here. I was a firebrand Trotskyite socialist after I left school, and went to Poly / University, mighty cosseted environment that was.
The Welfare State was designed as a contract, it was a National Insurance scheme not a national entitlement scheme. People would travel for work. People would expect to work, and in return, they could depend on the state to help them when they genuinely fell on hard times. Not so these days. And there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with leaving school and not expecting to work.
As for the riots, according to the Guardian, obviously a Tory sockpuppet (;)) Three-Quarters of those charged had prior convictions (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/15/three-quarters-rioters-criminal-convictions). I think that supports the looter rather than principled revolutionary analysis when it comes to the motivations of many of those involved.
And your response to the second paragraph of my post, or does that aspect not concern you?
Already answered, Dave. They are NOT illegal as we would not be able to employ them.
You might do well to stop making assumptions about my thoughts, Dave.
And clearly the Brits and legal EU workers don't apply for jobs as they can be on benefits. The illegals (some run by gangs) don't have such benefits so work pays for them.
What's the solution?
1) magically expel the illegals?
2) turn off more benefits so more legals apply?
Hard to see what we can do that would be effective.
They were not 'riots' at all, started off as a direct attack on the police for reasons we all know about. It then turned into wholesale criminality, looting and damage, didn't anybody listen to the so called rioters and follow the conviction stories? :scratch:
It was a big party for the majority, rioting ..... I don't really think so.
It's good fun init, free stuff init.......
Any room behind the sofa for me Martin and Nick?
:sofa:
Beechwoods
19-08-2012, 15:55
It's a big sofa, you're all welcome to share it!
It's a big sofa, you're all welcome to share it!
Is Laura N behind there?
:lol: ok, I'm behind the sofa, too. As has already been said, I'm not going to fall out with anyone here over politics.
:sofa:
Already answered, Dave. They are NOT illegal as we would not be able to employ them.
You might do well to stop making assumptions about my thoughts, Dave.
Martin,
No disrespect intended but I seem to recall that either the Home Office or MoD (or both) were found to be employing illegal immigrants as cleaners a short while ago. If they can be conned into believing that they are totally complying with the law in these matters what makes you so sure that your company can't? - just askin' :) .
Beechwoods,
Not for one moment do I doubt such a reliable source for such information as the Guardian but it ain't really relevant to the point I'm trying to make. To repeat myself, I believe the trouble was started by the disenchanted and disenfranchised, as they saw themselves. As Stan says, the spark that lit the tinderbox, literally, was the shooting of the suspect the police aprehended. Some of those who thought of him as one of their own began to make their objections known as the word spread and then the opportunists joined in - one of 'em was even the daughter of a millionaire IIRC. Is it not possible, probable even, that by the time the forces of law and order got themselves organised and in a position to respond the 'legitimate' and peaceful protestors who were not also included amongst the opportunists (not mutually exclusive I suspect) had gone home leaving the police to wade in to the much reduced gangs doing the rioting and, surprise, surprise, 75% of 'em had previous convictions. Should that really surprise anyone?
I have no idea as to whether that was actually what happened but I suspect it is at least possible.
Your experiences in Bristol have been mirrored and probably exceeded by my experiences (going back well over 50 years :( ) in Sheffield. I have no time for those that only take from society as if it is their God given rights, but equally Ihave no time for those that say I'm going to give back to society as little as I, my accountant and my lawyer can possibly get away with and take as much out as the same three can similarly get away with.
Cheers,
Dave
Just seen the most recent replies that were posted while I was compiling my epic missive. I'm also happy to retire behind the sofa if everyone else is going there :lol: .
Dave.
It's much nicer back here Dave, but I'm afraid Nick has scoffed all the custard creams :lol:
Beechwoods
19-08-2012, 17:16
You're all cissies. If you want one, you can fight me for them!
You're all cissies. If you want one, you can fight me for them!
Best we stop this now as I understand talk of violence is against AUP? ;)
Beechwoods
19-08-2012, 18:44
There is an exception known as the 'Beastie Boy' clause. Whether this covers custard creams I don't know :)
bobbasrah
19-08-2012, 19:01
There is an exception known as the 'Beastie Boy' clause. ...
So that brings us full circle or is that prejudicial :D
There is an exception known as the 'Beastie Boy' clause. Whether this covers custard creams I don't know :)
Perhaps I shouldn't say it but I assume the expression 'Beastie Boy' refers only to members of the Admin team? ;) , with or without custard creams.
Dave.
Beechwoods
19-08-2012, 19:40
You think too much!
eBShN8qT4lk
Going back to Mr Assange, there's a good article here http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition which clears up many of the myths on the case including some mentioned in earlier posts here...
bobbasrah
20-08-2012, 17:27
Going back to Mr Assange, there's a good article here http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition which clears up many of the myths on the case including some mentioned in earlier posts here...
Excellent ;)
Thank you for that link, Dave. Five excellent points summarising Assange's position.
sq225917
20-08-2012, 17:58
Who else has noticed a shift in the media over the past two weeks, everything has had more than smell of final days about it, mixed with a healthy dose of foregone conclusion. His side is very obviously being briefed against in all the mainstream media.
I think he will be on a plane to Sweden at some point, which is only right and proper. As to him being snatched away to the US, well that's an entirely different kettle of fish.
Here's a foil to the very clinical and legalistic New Statesman article, ok old boy George may not be PC and does say some daft things, but not always.....some of what he says is more common sense than some other views that have been written. It's also a sort of "let's get real and put this in perspective".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19334598
And BTW, here's another news item from today that rightly or wrongly is closer to my view of what rape means.
Here's a foil to the very clinical and legalistic New Statesman article, ok old boy George may not be PC and does say some daft things, but not always.....some of what he says is more common sense than some other views that have been written. It's also a sort of "let's get real and put this in perspective".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19334598
And BTW, here's another news item from today that rightly or wrongly is closer to my view of what rape means.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-19330927
Sorry Clive but that man has absolutely zero credibility IMHO . . .
E-D5XoNWFSQ
"Not everybody needs to be asked prior to each insertion" :rfl:
Sorry Clive but that man has absolutely zero credibility IMHO . . .
All I'm suggesting is that you read his words to see if they spark any thoughts of your own. I don't care for him either but it's good to think about the issues in a different way to the New Statesman article to try to come up with a balanced view.
All I'm suggesting is that you read his words to see if they spark any thoughts of your own. I don't care for him either but it's good to think about the issues in a different way to the New Statesman article to try to come up with a balanced view.
On that we are in agreement, but not from that muppet! ;)
Its interesting that this guy was once supported by a liberal paper like the Guardian but has no been rejected by them because the guy has been acting like an asshole.
Its interesting that this guy was once supported by a liberal paper like the Guardian but has no been rejected by them because the guy has been acting like an asshole.
I suppose it's a bit like Ed Balls, can anyone hear his words and take any of them seriously? It's not like he has any principles.
Dear old George is more quaint I suppose, he's way outside the establishment and a total loose canon. Unlike Ed he's pretty harmless - except he won't have done much to help Assange - who on a personal level may not be fantastically likable either.
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