View Full Version : Burning in cables - discuss
Stu @ M Developments
15-08-2012, 12:34
Hi folks,
Been advise to run in some new speaker cables before making a final decision wether to keep them or not.
Now, I have heard of this before of course, but never really cared too much to look into it in any great depth. So...
What changes, permanently, in the wire when it's being used?
sq225917
15-08-2012, 12:57
Nothing of course. Can you think of any filed of scientific endeavour where cable burn in is an issue? Do they burn in the wires in nuclear magnetic resonant imaging machines, do they burn in the wires in tunnelling electron microscopes, do they burn in the wires in super computers, at CERN?
I wonder why all this equipment, that works on signal levels that are thousands and tens of thousands of times smaller than we are capable of discerning with out ears, should be immune to this stuff, but old 'steam powered' hifi not?
It would be easy to be facetious here but I won't simply because I have heard the results for myself. I'm sure someone will be along in a mo to enlighten you with all the technical guff however, some cables do indeed seem to benefit from 'burn in' time, particularly the Belkin IC's and speaker cables that I own.
Burn-in is hard to credit. I can't help thinking it's more like your ears become accustomed to the sound of the cable so it's your brain burning-in. It needs a test with a new cable vs a burnt-in one but I for one can't be bothered.
Dingdong
15-08-2012, 13:24
Nothing of course. Can you think of any filed of scientific endeavour where cable burn in is an issue? Do they burn in the wires in nuclear magnetic resonant imaging machines, do they burn in the wires in tunnelling electron microscopes, do they burn in the wires in super computers, at CERN?
I wonder why all this equipment, that works on signal levels that are thousands and tens of thousands of times smaller than we are capable of discerning with out ears, should be immune to this stuff, but old 'steam powered' hifi not?
I tend to agree with this.
Does the cable change or is it your perception of the sound that changes?
I notice the change in sound as my valve amps warm up. Seems sensible.
But cables. I'm rather sceptical of that.
prestonchipfryer
15-08-2012, 13:26
Contentious issue for sure. Light blue touch paper and stand back. :eyebrows:
Contentious issue for sure. Light blue touch paper and stand back. :eyebrows:
Indeed John, which is why I've commented only in regard of my own experiences. I'm lucky enough to have several new and unused sets of the white Belkin IC's lying around. A few weeks ago when this subject last raised its ugly head I decided to swap out a well used pair of Belkins which ran from the DR5 to the Amptastic T for one of the new sets and the difference was marked. The sound was overly bright and a tad grainy using a set straight out of the box and bass was less extended and well formed. The new Belkins stayed put and are now well and truly 'burned in'. They sound as lush as the old set ;)
sq225917
15-08-2012, 14:39
I'm perfectly happy that people claim they have heard the effects. I've heard effects that I cannot reason out logically. I certainly fall into the cables can and do make a difference camp.
But a cable that burnt in, is burning out every time you use it, and logically at some point one must expect it to fail.
My view is give it time if they do not burn in then return them, if you enjoy them after the right burn in time keep them
The brain is trisky but in the end trust your own experience
Oxidised connectors?
Not on my part Clive, I regularly treat all the connectors and sockets in my system with De-Oxit and had in fact treated them just a few weeks beforehand when I acquired the Mini T amp. I did replace the new IC's with the ones I'd removed for a few hours just to be certain of what I was hearing.
Not on my part Clive, I regularly treat all the connectors and sockets in my system with De-Oxit and had in fact treated them just a few weeks beforehand when I acquired the Mini T amp. I did replace the new IC's with the ones I'd removed for a few hours just to be certain of what I was hearing.
I'm not 100% anti the possibility of cable burn-in, it's one of those things that I would prefer wouldn't happen. There's no doubt some capacitors burn-in, maybe it's the minor capacitive nature of some cables. IME though I've never heard significant changes over a long period. The first hour maybe...but I do question whether it's me adjusting.
prestonchipfryer
15-08-2012, 15:21
Indeed John, which is why I've commented only in regard of my own experiences. I'm lucky enough to have several new and unused sets of the white Belkin IC's lying around. A few weeks ago when this subject last raised its ugly head I decided to swap out a well used pair of Belkins which ran from the DR5 to the Amptastic T for one of the new sets and the difference was marked. The sound was overly bright and a tad grainy using a set straight out of the box and bass was less extended and well formed. The new Belkins stayed put and are now well and truly 'burned in'. They sound as lush as the old set ;)
Yes Dave, my own experiences with various cables tells me that they can indeed make a difference to SQ. Whether mains, interconnect or speaker. Whether that difference can be proved/disproved by measurement I do not know, only my ears telling me what, in my system, is better or not. :)
For my part, I've heard cables and connectors make a difference, but I've yet to hear any evidence that cables burn-in.
realysm42
15-08-2012, 16:09
Whether it's me or the cable burning in, something changes over time and it tends to sound better with it.
The sad thing is that our ears, experiences and moods change on a minute by minute level and it's been proved countless times just how fallible/easily fooled we humans are on the whole. However, remember when we "clean" all our connections periodically, the small but important differences we claim to hear, and then a couple of days to "settle back down again?"
I suspect cable "burn-in" is nothing of the sort, but maybe the different metals in the plugs and sockets (most often plated in several layers) and maybe microscopic changes in contact resistance as the plugs seat themselves into place? Just a thought.
I do admit to easily hearing some cable differences, but it's interesting how the most "different" ones are fancy confections designed to be different and priced high accordingly. So many "sensible" cables at mixed prices actually sound pretty darned similar to me, but then, I'm not as highly tuned as many on here and don't listen out for these tiny differences if they exist.
kininigin
15-08-2012, 16:21
Well for me,using Mark Grant's cables,i haven't noticed any burn in.They have sounded the same from day 1 to me.
I'm not convinced by cable burn in personally,but remain open minded enough,to aknowledge that it may happen.
I've long thought that the cable burn-in thing was bollocks... I was convinced that if anything was "burning in" it was most likely my ears/head!
However, having recently heard the effect on three different sets of cables in less than a week... well, I'm buggered if I know! :scratch:
The only thing I can come up with is that there may be something going on with regards to the insulation/dielectric, a bit like what goes on with capacitors. Or not!
Yes I used to be more sceptic too but these days I am not really sure after using the Belkin Speaker cable.
bobbasrah
15-08-2012, 20:21
I have noticed differences that differing cables make when connected, although the differences are subtle.
I thought cable burn-in referred to them changing over time and use, which i have not knowingly experienced.
Besides the potential reasons quoted previously, is it not possible for those who HAVE experienced this that the circuits are somehow changing to accommodate at either end of the cable, rather than the cable per se ?
Stu @ M Developments
15-08-2012, 20:55
Nothing of course. Can you think of any filed of scientific endeavour where cable burn in is an issue? Do they burn in the wires in nuclear magnetic resonant imaging machines, do they burn in the wires in tunnelling electron microscopes, do they burn in the wires in super computers, at CERN?
I wonder why all this equipment, that works on signal levels that are thousands and tens of thousands of times smaller than we are capable of discerning with out ears, should be immune to this stuff, but old 'steam powered' hifi not?
I totally agree with you, and deal with a lot of quite complex wiring for a living, in canbus systems, but I was hoping some electrical cable expert on here could explain to me what physically happens to the cables conductor and/or insulator materials over time as it is subjected to tiny voltages that is dictating this need for a "burn In". Surely after all these years someone has asked and got a decent believable reply?
I meant to ask the chap I bought the cables from today, but was in a hurry to get from Huddersfield to Carlisle so clean forgot due to rushing which is a shame as he sells and even builds these cables for a living and has told me catagorically that these £350 cables will need a "Burn in period" to sound their best.
I shall E-Mail him and find out his thoughts. :)
Nothing of course. Can you think of any filed of scientific endeavour where cable burn in is an issue? Do they burn in the wires in nuclear magnetic resonant imaging machines, do they burn in the wires in tunnelling electron microscopes, do they burn in the wires in super computers, at CERN?
I wonder why all this equipment, that works on signal levels that are thousands and tens of thousands of times smaller than we are capable of discerning with out ears, should be immune to this stuff, but old 'steam powered' hifi not?
Maybe you are missing the point, you're right that cable burn-in is not an issue, and never will be for any critical applications. But for some reason there are audible differences between cables and indeed after they have been burned in. Cables will never make a big difference in a system unless they are mismatched, but there are subtle gains or losses.
I've tried to disbelieve the difference in cables for a long time and really do not want cables to make a difference, but my TQ Blacks were definitely more closed-in when I used them fresh. I was A/Bing between it and my NVA and could clearly tell the difference, I thought they were colouring the sound. However the TQ black did end up matching the NVA perhaps, but perhaps a tad softer.
Floyddroid
15-08-2012, 21:13
As much as i enjoy the engineering and mechanical aspect of Hi-Fi the science of cable technology leaves me a little cold. My view is that cables do not have any directionality until they are first used. Whether this can be described as burn in by altering the structure of the materiel used i am unsure. I remain sceptical. An ongoing topic that will no doubt be supported and/or refuted by many more intelligent folks than i. As far as i am concerned, cables in their many guises are but a tuning device in the abscence of good quality tone controls.:rolleyes:
Just a little food for thought:
If it was possible to record audio magnetically onto a steel wire in 1900, how unlikely is it that electrical energy passing through a medium, such as a speaker cable, would NOT affect the medium? :rolleyes:
http://www.ollars.net/hififorum/Telegrafon_8154.jpg
Stu @ M Developments
15-08-2012, 21:19
Just a little food for thought:
If it was possible to record audio magnetically onto a steel wire in 1900, how unlikely is it that electrical energy passing through a medium, such as a speaker cable, would NOT affect the medium? :rolleyes:
Thats the beginning of a tape recorder as we know it, and used magnetic medium which would either record, or return the magnetic field as it passed the head depending on wether current was applied to the head at the time. We dont use magnetic medium in Speaker cables.
sq225917
15-08-2012, 21:23
Like I said, I know cables make a difference. I just have no experience that tells me that burn in is one of the mechanisms by which this happens.
I'm much more willing to believe that what some people associate with burn in is simply them becoming accustomed to the new 'balance' of their set-up with new cables over time. As opposed to some, as yet unknown to science, metamorphosis caused only by the passage of tiny electrical signal and only in cable for audio.
What's more likely, that we adjust to the subtle shift in the balance of our hif after adding new cables in the same way that we adjust to the biting point of the clutch in a hire car after only a few miles? Or that there's unknown science afoot?
I'm not denying that people don't perceive differences as a result to ongoing exposure to new bits of kit in their hifi- just the likely mechanism by which it takes place.
As much as i enjoy the engineering and mechanical aspect of Hi-Fi the science of cable technology leaves me a little cold. My view is that cables do not have any directionality until they are first used. Whether this can be described as burn in by altering the structure of the materiel used i am unsure. I remain sceptical. An ongoing topic that will no doubt be supported and/or refuted by many more intelligent folks than i. As far as i am concerned, cables in their many guises are but a tuning device in the abscence of good quality tone controls.:rolleyes:
Yes the differences that people publish are very exaggerated, which leaves me cold... "Bass appeared out of nowhere with an inky black background"... I have not ever heard a cable do anything like this. Other manufacturers deliberately introduce a colouration, which might be pleasant in the right context.
I am still skeptical about most things about cable, but *some* cables appear to slightly change, giving an overall slight difference to the sound. You could hook up an high end system with coathangers and it wiil sound better than an equivalently priced system with 40% cost on foo cables, which I see a lot on forum sigs!
Now I may be talking bollocks here, it has been known, but perhaps the tiny currents passing through the wire heat it imperceptibly thus, over time, changing the properties of the copper fractionally. Perhaps it is this process that leads to the small change we hear. If I am talking bollocks then I wiil go stand in the naughty corner forthwith... :lol:
Dingdong
15-08-2012, 21:44
I think there are a bunch of theories about cable burn-in. Could be a tiny change in he conductor. Or a change in the dielectric. Or just the contacts oxidising a bit.
I remain sceptical.
Does anybody notice a difference if they bend their cable? This should change the properties of it by a tiny amount.
Same with cleaning connectors. At what point do you notice that they need cleaning?
steveledzep
15-08-2012, 22:57
Now I may be talking bollocks here, it has been known, but perhaps the tiny currents passing through the wire heat it imperceptibly thus, over time, changing the properties of the copper fractionally. Perhaps it is this process that leads to the small change we hear. If I am talking bollocks then I wiil go stand in the naughty corner forthwith... :lol:
I may be joining you in the naughty corner Synsei. My observations and perceptions throughout my hifi journey are as follows :
I never believed that speaker cable could make a difference. I always believed that a good cross section of quality copper is all that's required. However, I tried QED Silver Anniversary once and found that it was too bright for my liking. I considered that the superior conductivity of silver would be helpful to the situation, but didn't expect a difference to the sound !
I use large cross section copper now. I don't understand directionality in cables. As has been touched on here, does the constant flow of current in the same direction cause a rearrangement of the atoms in the cable ? I've not tried reversal, but maybe it sounds inferior or different if reversed after a long time in one direction.
How about cables with arrows printed on the outer insulation ? Have they been pre-conditioned for current flow in that direction ? My only qualification in this is A level Physics, but I really can't get to terms with directionality ?????
I haven't experimented with interconnects for components, just bought "tidy" ones. Not cheap, but not mega expensive either.
The whole subject baffles me. I think there are more enhancing tweaks to be had than many pounds spent on cables. Don't skimp, but don't spend a fortune. £10 to £20 is more than enough for an interconnect in my opinion.
Synsei, do we have to wear a dunce's hat in this naughty corner ?
Synsei, do we have to wear a dunce's hat in this naughty corner ?
If we do then I'm going to write 'Gaultier' in permanent marker on the cap and start a new fashion trend... :D
sq225917
16-08-2012, 07:08
Some cables are built with the shield connected at one end
Hello everyone.
Interesting thread so many opinions in one place, respected persons too, people who when they say something they have cred.
I have never heard burn-in but then again I don't listen for it. If I fit a new cable, interconnect, speaker I usually believe I detect some difference so I suppose I accept cables make a difference to the sound quality. Last set of speaker cables as soon as I put them in I am hearding a difference.
Cables are part of the whole system and are passive, relatively inert. At either end of the cable are loads of components which can change.
Simple option nobody has thought of - it isnt the cable changing it is the rest of the system adjusting to it being there. Slowly again cable does not change rest of system adjusts cos that is the part of the system that can change.
Discuss if you want
Cables are indeed passive, but have varying amounts of resistance, capacitance and inductance, all of which is measurable and can be tweaked by those that know. Some domestic gear is well designed, stable and relatively inert to these differences, other wacko items are so strung out there that the tiniest change affects their performance - in my opinion obviously. Couple that with an Autistically inclined hobbyist who totally tunes himself (usually a him, but maybe there are one or two ladies as well out there) to the tiniest real or imagined differences and bingo!
FFS fellas, just enjoy the music and get the main components of the stereo right to start with. Cables and fancy plugs can look after themselves most of the time as long as they're properly fit for purpose :)
I have heard for myself that cables really do 'burn-in' (perhaps we need a different word) over a period of time. It simply isn't psychology. The effect has always been in part that they lose some harshness and become less 'clanky' - the best word I can think of for it. In my experience copper cables can take 10-50 hours to settle down but silver ones need over 100 hours.
Apart from burn-in, cables make very obvious differences to a system's sound but should be selected for final tuning and not to fix an existing problem.
Stratmangler
16-08-2012, 10:47
FFS fellas, just enjoy the music and get the main components of the stereo right to start with. Cables and fancy plugs can look after themselves most of the time as long as they're properly fit for purpose :)
A man after my own heart :cool:
I have heard for myself that cables really do 'burn-in' (perhaps we need a different word) over a period of time. It simply isn't psychology. The effect has always been in part that they lose some harshness and become less 'clanky' - the best word I can think of for it. In my experience copper cables can take 10-50 hours to settle down but silver ones need over 100 hours.
Apart from burn-in, cables make very obvious differences to a system's sound but should be selected for final tuning and not to fix an existing problem.
Martin stop and consider before you answer this. How do you know it is the cable itself changing in any way and not other components in the circuit it is part of or are you using a simplification?
I don’t believe cables ‘burn in”.
If I did hear what I took to be a consistent change for the better over time I wouldn’t attribute it to burn in. I would be inclined to believe my hearing was adjusting to the sound.
I once accidentally wired a tweeter out of phase in a 4 driver speaker (mark your cables when working on crossovers :doh:) and although I thought something sounded different I didn’t realize what it was until I carried out a phase test.
Add to the above that some days the stereo sounds absolutely brilliant and on other days I just don’t think it sounds right despite having made no changes.
I’m fairly incredulous when I read what people say they can hear and even more incredulous when I read some of the explanations for such perceived changes.
It just seems to me when it comes to stereo sound some people go for the most unlikely explanation for what they hear and the most plausible explanation gets dismissed out of hand.
The one thing in my system that varies a lot from day to day is me, the listener.
Martin stop and consider before you answer this. How do you know it is the cable itself changing in any way and not other components in the circuit it is part of or are you using a simplification?
Simple - I only change one thing at a time when I'm evaluating. I also know the sound of my system pretty well and so have a baseline in my head.
Add to the above that some days the stereo sounds absolutely brilliant and on other days I just don’t think it sounds right despite having made no changes.
.
I get this quite a lot. Some days lacklustre, some days so good I can barely believe it. I had put this down to my differing mood because, as you say, I am the obvious variable in the conundrum. Recently though the differences are so great I have been thinking it may be due to varying mains quality -although again I am sceptical that this makes an audible difference especially in the UK as we have a fairly decent mains supply.
For the record I've never heard interconnects or speaker cable 'burn in'.
Simple - I only change one thing at a time when I'm evaluating. I also know the sound of my system pretty well and so have a baseline in my head.
But have you left one cable unused and ran the other for 100 hours or so, directly comparing them after? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but without proper proof, all it is is subjective speculation and opinion, which is largely pointless to anyone except the person making the claims. Sorry Martin, I'm really not being picky or nasty here, but I hope you get where I'm coming from. Subjective opinion is so untrustworthy and in my personal experience of my systems, one day they can sound horrible, and the next quite pleasant and well able for me to "suspend disbelief" in the reproduced sound. I very much doubt it's the system, although temperature and humidity changes make a real difference, but more likely my ears, but then, I have frequent ear-canal issues most probably don't..
Oh I'm with you, Dave, and I cannot provide proof - nor am I trying to. I guess I'm just speaking out loud.
One test I have done, and it's very simple to try: take a pair of well burned-in speaker cables (humour me). Reverse only one of them. Listen. What do you hear?
If, as you suggest, there is no such thing as burn-in (or directionality), then there will be no apparent change in the sound. Try it!
Do studios give a toss about cables or is it just hi fi people?
brian2957
16-08-2012, 15:08
Oh I'm with you, Dave, and I cannot provide proof - nor am I trying to. I guess I'm just speaking out loud.
One test I have done, and it's very simple to try: take a pair of well burned-in speaker cables (humour me). Reverse only one of them. Listen. What do you hear?
If, as you suggest, there is no such thing as burn-in (or directionality), then there will be no apparent change in the sound. Try it!
I've done that in the past Martin , when I've mistakenly replaced one cable the wrong way round and thought my system didn't sound quite right . When I changed the cables round everything was OK. . I've been marking the directionaliy of cables for some years now. In my opinion if you discard a cable without using / burning it in for at least 50 hours you may be doing yourself a major disfavour. And no I can't provide proof of this apart from what I hear.
Do studios give a toss about cables or is it just hi fi people?
Some studios do too including Abbey Road.
What including burn in and direction.
I thought most used cheapish van damme.
Nothing at all wrong with cheapish Van Damme, in fact much of their signal stuff is better than most budget to mid grade interconnects and speaker cables from a dealer IMO.
Martin, I HAVE reversed cables, one of a pair, and in the worst cases, the whole stereo image is badly affected for a good long while, the most obvious of all being the old Chord Solid interconnects, which were based on Microwave transmission cables I understand - a silver (plated?) single inner conductor in a flexible copper pipe around 3/16" diameter. get one of a pair of these wrong and it drastically affected the sonics - I don't know why, but it was easily repeatable blind.........
On the other hand, we had a prototype interconnect sent us. VERY thin screened cable around 1mm diameter tops (Cardas? - white and I think one with a red stripe down it IIRC) with sturdy but not special phono plugs on the end. Sounded incredible and not directional at all....
I HAVE reversed cables, one of a pair, and in the worst cases, the whole stereo image is badly affected for a good long while
Ok, well if you've heard the effect, no matter how large or small, then you are accepting that something happens to cables during use. Give it any name you like, the effect is real.
Mr Kipling
16-08-2012, 17:39
Thats the beginning of a tape recorder as we know it, and used magnetic medium which would either record, or return the magnetic field as it passed the head depending on wether current was applied to the head at the time. We dont use magnetic medium in Speaker cables.
Doesn't a current flow along a conductor produce a magnet field? Place another conductor inside that field and a voltage gets induced.
Eddy Current
Agreed.
Apologies for being a bit of a devil's advocate, but there has to be something going on and, if we can't measure it properly with current thinking, we must find a technique that proves it. I bet we can measure it, but no-one can be a*sed since it would take the foo and mega profits out of it ;) For some reason, a cable's behaviour at RF and higher seems to have some sort of indication of its audio behaviour Don't know why, but some years ago, I understand Paul Miller tried to collate these differences together...
sq225917
16-08-2012, 17:41
Abbey Road didn't give a toss until they licensed their name for use in a cable brand. Some studios do care but mostly only those who have a deal in place and are paid to use specific cables as part of a marketing deal.
The only exclusion to this rule I know is Dave Gilmour, who pays for his own cables- though he no doubt gets a rite deal on em...
Doaesn't a current flow along a conductor produce a magnet field? Place another conductor inside that field and a voltage gets induced.
Eddy Current
Not sure it applies at very low voltages and current used in audio reproduction in all honesty. I mean, the signal wires in my old Croft preamp are 0.6mm single core unscreened wires, all neatly dressed together, left, right and returns, and yet there is no bleed-through that I can discern and the measured stereo separation of a directly related croft model was very good as I remember - modern Crofts do use screened cables inside, by the way :lol:
The main thing is to keep mains cables away as much as possible from signal wires. if they have to cross each other, it's good practice to cross them at right-angles. Can't say I've heard a difference, but I try to do this as much as I can ;)
Harry Hill
16-08-2012, 17:55
I'm not sure it makes any difference but the only way to tell is to have another identical set and not burn those in so you can have a quick A-B test to settle the argument for good.:cool:
OK, I've had another go at this as well as trying reversing them...
I'm back to thinking it's all bollocks. I can't hear a jot of difference! :doh:
Mr Kipling
16-08-2012, 18:11
Not sure it applies at very low voltages and current used in audio reproduction in all honesty. I mean, the signal wires in my old Croft preamp are 0.6mm single core unscreened wires, all neatly dressed together, left, right and returns, and yet there is no bleed-through that I can discern and the measured stereo separation of a directly related croft model was very good as I remember - modern Crofts do use screened cables inside, by the way :lol:
The main thing is to keep mains cables away as much as possible from signal wires. if they have to cross each other, it's good practice to cross them at right-angles. Can't say I've heard a difference, but I try to do this as much as I can ;)
On the face of it what you say is true. But I've read, years and years ago that braided cables connections are preferred to a twisted pair connection partly due to better rfi rejection and also the canncelation of magnetic fields due to the construction.
Stu @ M Developments
16-08-2012, 19:05
** Update **
Thanks for the discussion and input guys, am enjoying reading it.
My supplier replied, and, by way of explanation directed me here:
Makes interesting reading.
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=12&pagestring=Cable
Dingdong
16-08-2012, 19:17
** Update **
Thanks for the discussion and input guys, am enjoying reading it.
My supplier replied, and, by way of explanation directed me here:
Makes interesting reading.
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=12&pagestring=Cable
Yes it does. Just beacuse someone (a cable maker) put it on a website does not make it true.
Maybe if they backed it up with some figures.
Try bending your cables while listening to music. This will affect the charge in the dielectric. Do you notice any difference?
Try bending your cables while listening to music. This will affect the charge in the dielectric. Do you notice any difference?
OK... back in a bit!
Try bending your cables while listening to music. This will affect the charge in the dielectric. Do you notice any difference?
OK... back in a bit!
Nope, nothing!
Dingdong
16-08-2012, 19:44
If you want to try a different experiment. Clean some of your connectors.
Hopefully you should hear a small improvment. Over the next few weeks can you notice that there is a degredation in sound? It should be very small, but it should happen.
If you want to try a different experiment. Clean some of your connectors.
I do that regularly... ;)
Dingdong
16-08-2012, 19:54
I do that regularly... ;)
When do you notice that they need cleaning again?
Stu @ M Developments
16-08-2012, 19:58
Yes it does. Just beacuse someone (a cable maker) put it on a website does not make it true.
I didn't say I sanctioned the information, I am just reporting back the suppliers explanation as I promised I would.
I am now awaiting a reply from the actual manufacturer of the cable to get their thoughts. :)
When do you notice that they need cleaning again?
Never... cables are hardly ever connected for long enough for it to be an issue. All plugs and sockets are gold plated anyway.
weetabix
17-08-2012, 12:40
Hi All,
My hifi dealer who went into the cable business was able to demonstrate the difference between a "burnt-in" cable and one that was newly made, the audible results were clear.
The "burnt-in" cable was more musical, smoother, more "rounded" and expressive.
His cable company still uses a cable "toaster" to bring the cables up to their optimum potential before releasing:
http://www.s-arrowcables.com/page3.html
Interestingly, the Van den Hul website also covers this subject in their articles:
3-8 Q: What is the so-called “burning-in” of a cable ?
A: Any cable’s conductors consist of many groups of atoms, clustered in crystals or atom clusters. The borders between these crystals or clusters are critical zones where electron movements are hindered when the condition of these boundaries is getting worse. This worsening takes place e.g. when your loudspeaker cable is moved every day and/or chemical activity is around - latter amplified by higher humidity levels, elevated temperatures and air pollution. Also imperfections in the cable insulation can trigger conductivity changes.
Burning-in is the effect that, despite any affected crystal borders, the sound quality improves again thanks to electron movement through conducting zones like so-called electron tunnels. But... when you move a cable again, those tunnels are “broken” and you then have to start again by playing your music.
You may wonder why (especially) on Sunday evening the music sounds so good again, this after a week with plenty of sound problems. Your cables finally are burned-in. But as soon as the killing Hoover (vacuum cleaning) hour on Monday morning comes and the over-active cleaning lady messes about with your cables, the problem returns: your cables are “burned-out” again, remaining that way until the following Sunday...
sq225917
17-08-2012, 15:11
Well I'd certainly be willing to put my faith in someone who sells a £500 cable made of nondescript materials and nondescript parts. He's obviously the sort of guy I can trust.
julesd68
17-08-2012, 15:56
Well I'd certainly be willing to put my faith in someone who sells a £500 cable made of nondescript materials and nondescript parts. He's obviously the sort of guy I can trust.
You mean you weren't convinced by "a heady mix of precious metal conductors" :doh:
weetabix
17-08-2012, 15:57
Indeed, his website describes the materials used, such as silver foils & Palladium:
http://www.s-arrowcables.com/index.html
To be fair, he knows his stuff. Don't knock it until you've tried it.
julesd68
17-08-2012, 16:31
Don't knock it until you've tried it.
From their website -
< A Stunning new, affordable, interconnect from Silver Arrow Cables. Featuring a heady mix of precious metal conductors, encased in an air dielectric, damped by natural cotton. The RCA connectors are heavily silver plated Copper, not the usual Brass based plugs that most other manufacturers use. >
Sorry but it's easy to be a little cynical when someone is asking £500 for this. :eek:
Don't let the psychobabble detract from the main thrust of this thread, though.
Dingdong
17-08-2012, 17:46
Interestingly, the Van den Hul website also covers this subject in their articles:
3-8 Q: What is the so-called “burning-in” of a cable ?
A: Any cable’s conductors consist of many groups of atoms, clustered in crystals or atom clusters. The borders between these crystals or clusters are critical zones where electron movements are hindered when the condition of these boundaries is getting worse. This worsening takes place e.g. when your loudspeaker cable is moved every day and/or chemical activity is around - latter amplified by higher humidity levels, elevated temperatures and air pollution. Also imperfections in the cable insulation can trigger conductivity changes.
Burning-in is the effect that, despite any affected crystal borders, the sound quality improves again thanks to electron movement through conducting zones like so-called electron tunnels. But... when you move a cable again, those tunnels are “broken” and you then have to start again by playing your music.
You may wonder why (especially) on Sunday evening the music sounds so good again, this after a week with plenty of sound problems. Your cables finally are burned-in. But as soon as the killing Hoover (vacuum cleaning) hour on Monday morning comes and the over-active cleaning lady messes about with your cables, the problem returns: your cables are “burned-out” again, remaining that way until the following Sunday...
That's just arse gravy. Over-active cleaning ladies.:rfl:
I think that if cables burn in it must be very gradual,cos i have never really noticed it,electronics on the other hand certainly do.I have had several headphone amps and dac's that were unlistenable when i first turned them on, but after leaving running for 48 hrs changed totally. :scratch:
Interestingly, the Van den Hul website also covers this subject in their articles:
3-8 Q: What is the so-called “burning-in” of a cable ?
A: Any cable’s conductors consist of many groups of atoms, clustered in crystals or atom clusters. The borders between these crystals or clusters are critical zones where electron movements are hindered when the condition of these boundaries is getting worse. This worsening takes place e.g. when your loudspeaker cable is moved every day and/or chemical activity is around - latter amplified by higher humidity levels, elevated temperatures and air pollution. Also imperfections in the cable insulation can trigger conductivity changes.
Burning-in is the effect that, despite any affected crystal borders, the sound quality improves again thanks to electron movement through conducting zones like so-called electron tunnels. But... when you move a cable again, those tunnels are “broken” and you then have to start again by playing your music.
You may wonder why (especially) on Sunday evening the music sounds so good again, this after a week with plenty of sound problems. Your cables finally are burned-in. But as soon as the killing Hoover (vacuum cleaning) hour on Monday morning comes and the over-active cleaning lady messes about with your cables, the problem returns: your cables are “burned-out” again, remaining that way until the following Sunday...
Anyone who has studied solid-state physics and electrical conduction in metals, will realise what a total load of "techno-bollocks" or nonsense this is! :steam:
Dingdong
17-08-2012, 19:11
Anyone who has studied solid-state physics and electrical conduction in metals, will realise what a total load of "techno-bollocks" or nonsense this is! :steam:
On Sunday I shall play some music. Then pretend to be an over active cleaning lady. This may involve some dressing up to make it authentic.
Then I'll play the same music again.
bobbasrah
17-08-2012, 19:28
On Sunday I shall play some music. Then pretend to be an over active cleaning lady. This may involve some dressing up to make it authentic.
Then I'll play the same music again.
Is that a scrubber ?:scratch:
Don't let the psychobabble detract from the main thrust of this thread, though.
:doh: what did I say? Please don't let that Van den Hul cobblers stain this interesting thread.
On Sunday I shall play some music. Then pretend to be an over active cleaning lady. This may involve some dressing up to make it authentic.
Then I'll play the same music again.
:worthless::
He He
:worthless::
He He
Of WHAT FFS? :lol:
Mark in a housecoat and a feather duster....:D
:rfl:
Mark in a housecoat and a feather duster....:D
Yer granny 'milking' a donkey? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Oh Crap... he's back! :lol:
Anyone who has studied solid-state physics and electrical conduction in metals, will realise what a total load of "techno-bollocks" or nonsense this is! :steam:
+100 same goes for the other link quoted up thread...
On Sunday I shall play some music. Then pretend to be an over active cleaning lady. This may involve some dressing up to make it authentic.
Then I'll play the same music again.
You'll be playing Queen's, I Want To Break Free during this interesting experiment I guess... :D
weetabix
23-08-2012, 17:32
What's that phrase again?
"There's no smoke without fire...."
http://www.russandrews.com/product-Cable-Burn-In-Service-BURNIN.htm
Nice photo for you all, well you did ask!
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Tellurium%20Q/8c80cc78.jpg
and another.............
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Tellurium%20Q/763aaeea.jpg
final one before I go to make some more cables up.....
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/The%20Ultimate/ultimate.jpg
The Grand Wazoo
23-08-2012, 18:52
What is it that you sell David? - I've forgotten......again
What is it that you sell David? - I've forgotten......again
someone said this thread is useless without pics so what do you expect me to put up as a picture dude? fried eggs? :)
was just trying to brighten the thread up
realysm42
23-08-2012, 20:22
What's that phrase again?
"There's no smoke without fire...."
http://www.russandrews.com/product-Cable-Burn-In-Service-BURNIN.htm
If you change the colour of the unit, it puts the price up considerably :scratch:
awkwardbydesign
24-08-2012, 15:59
someone said this thread is useless without pics so what do you expect me to put up as a picture dude? fried eggs? :)
was just trying to brighten the thread up
I think he was referring to the cleaning lady!
Was she worth a jump?
Marco.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TuRRNezD83A/TIZ6WENT1zI/AAAAAAAAB9w/W9zU7GFVzXk/s1600/Cleaning+lady.jpg
Hehehe... I think I'd be leaving a nice wee froth on the floor like that after she'd been! :D
Marco.
Hehehe... I think I'd be leaving a nice wee froth on the floor like that after she'd been! :D
. . . what are you like Marco :lol:
If that's a "wee" froth then I'd hate to imagine what a full load would be like :eek:
:lol:
Now you've put me right off cables :eek:
I'm sure it won't be long before a manufacturer "comes up" with a "specially treated" wanky wire... :rfl:
prestonchipfryer
24-08-2012, 17:38
I'm sure it won't be long before a manufacturer "comes up" with a "specially treated" wanky wire... :rfl:
Reminds me of the strange ''Winky-Wanky'' bird. By a strange quirk it's eyelids are attached to its foreskin. So - when it winks, it wanks; and when it wanks, it winks.
julesd68
24-08-2012, 18:22
I'm sure it won't be long before a manufacturer "comes up" with a "specially treated" wanky wire... :rfl:
Aren't these already available from Russ Andrews?? :eyebrows:
Of WHAT FFS? :lol:
Too good!! I see your patience was already at a low ebb. I had just read the input and was wondering what pics. Then I read your reply - I laughed so much that tears ran down my leg.
tannoyman
26-10-2012, 11:20
Aren't these already available from Russ Andrews?? :eyebrows:
Hi Julian
I too am a bit sceptical about RA's wares. Some of the RA philosophy is absolutely on the button (good mains, good supports, good cables etc) but it does not always lead to mega expensive Kimber Kables with bait traps in, Torlyte stands and balanced mains units (whatever they are)
David :)
julesd68
26-10-2012, 14:46
Some of the RA philosophy is absolutely on the button (good mains, good supports, good cables etc)
I'm not even that far down the road David! :lol:
I only have isolation platforms as I am conditioned to think that I need them ... I have never done an A>B test to convince myself. And what I use is second-hand / very cheap stuff like Asda granite chopping boards ... I also have BASE platforms that cost a couple of hundred quid and I bought them for about 20 quid. Don't know whether they "do" anything.
I still haven't heard a speaker cable that made any difference to the sound in my system, which is why I settled on the cheap Talk 3 stuff.
That's not to say I don't have "good" ears - I do - I have a highly musical background and have no problem hearing differences in presentation with decks, amps and speakers etc
And while I'm at it, the only interconnect that sounded different in my system was an old & cheap Silver High Breed one which sounded more "airy" with my cdp. So I still have it ...
Now I may be talking bollocks here, it has been known, but perhaps the tiny currents passing through the wire heat it imperceptibly thus, over time, changing the properties of the copper fractionally. Perhaps it is this process that leads to the small change we hear. If I am talking bollocks then I wiil go stand in the naughty corner forthwith... :lol:
Umm..that's not a very likely scenario frankly - if you leave an egg in the a warm place (an airing cupboard for example), you don't get a hard boiled egg no matter how long you leave it. Passing a music signal through a cable heats the cable so imperceptibly that it never vaguely reaches the point where any heat related alterations occur - doing this for a long time doesn't make the effect cumulative - it just continues to get nowhere near hot enough.
"Let the cable burn in" is often just code for "live with it for a while and see if you grow to like it".
StanleyB
26-10-2012, 16:59
Umm..that's not a very likely scenario frankly - if you leave an egg in the a warm place (an airing cupboard for example), you don't get a hard boiled egg no matter how long you leave it.
Have you ever left an egg in a warm place to see what happen?
Yes, it went off - what did it do do for you - open the doors of perception?
StanleyB
26-10-2012, 18:00
Nope. Chicks showed up.
Nope. Chicks showed up.
:lol:
Curiously, that reminds me, how's that 'cable burn in' service working out for you Dave?
Nope. Chicks showed up.
Hehehe... Remember the old one: "How d'ya like yer eggs, darlin'?"
"Fertilised", she replied.
Marco.
Curiously, that reminds me, how's that 'cable burn in' service working out for you Dave?
When I first bought the machine it was slow at first, now it's quite busy, always have something on it as most of the cables I sell (except mains of course) go on there if time permits, I spoke to the guy who designed the nordost vidar at last year's whittlebury show as it happens, he was working on the Loricraft stand, very nice chap, also designed most of IsoTek's conditioners amongst other things.
Colin Wonfor
27-10-2012, 18:50
Oxidised connectors?
Hi Clive,
Very close, it is to do with molecular exchange between dissimilar metals.
Gold and Copper will exchange molecules and if you watch gold plating on gold the shine fads, gold will not oxidize in our atmosphere normally , but the exchange happen, that why copper connectors should be nickel plated first.
The same happens with gold a lead tin alloys in solder joints, to reduce this we can use and NOT WISELY cadmium based solder. And other alloys of tin to solder.
Fresh joints do still exchange but the dissimilar voltage very small voltage until this happen effect the conductive characteristics.
So burn in may be not the wire but the connector/solder/conductor barrier.
Col
Mr Kipling
27-10-2012, 21:26
Hi Clive,
Very close, it is to do with molecular exchange between dissimilar metals.
Gold and Copper will exchange molecules and if you watch gold plating on gold the shine fads, gold will not oxidize in our atmosphere normally , but the exchange happen, that why copper connectors should be nickel plated first.
The same happens with gold a lead tin alloys in solder joints, to reduce this we can use and NOT WISELY cadmium based solder. And other alloys of tin to solder.
Fresh joints do still exchange but the dissimilar voltage very small voltage until this happen effect the conductive characteristics.
So burn in may be not the wire but the connector/solder/conductor barrier.
Col
Not wanting to get you too excited Colin, but what about silver? Is oxidation and tarnishing one and the same?
Some time ago flitting around the 'net I found a thread suggesting the two were different. Being a tad on the lazy side I never thought to bookmark it so I could go back to it.
Not wanting to get you too excited Colin, but what about silver? Is oxidation and tarnishing one and the same?
Some time ago flitting around the 'net I found a thread suggesting the two were different. Being a tad on the lazy side I never thought to bookmark it so I could go back to it.
No. Silver oxide (Ag2O), a colourless film, is a partial conductor (8 microOhm.m).
Silver tarnish is silver sulphide (Ag2S), the grey-black colouration of tarnished silver, and is a semi-conductor (0.1 - 10 mOhm.m). Together with pure silver (resistivity 15 nanoOhm.m), it forms a rectifying junction, as does copper with cupric oxide (CuO).
Mr Kipling
27-10-2012, 22:00
Thanks, Barry.
For years I've thought about replacing the steel chassis in a Trough-Line with a one of copper silver plated to see if it would do anything for sound quality. Always wondered how to stop it from tarnishing.
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