What is it about Tannoy dual concentrics?

[walpurgis]

I've been messing about with all sorts of audio gear for over forty years (yes I'm an old git) and I've owned so many different types and makes of speaker. Quad ESL, Lowther, Proac, Cura, Dynaudio, KEF, B&W, Celestion and many, many more, plus a lot of home built speakers, including the legendary, but obscure seventies Coral Beta 10s in full sized horns (amazing), but I still end up having to go back to a pair of 'proper' Tannoys.

I know they aren't perfect by any means, no speaker is, especially moving coil types, which are all 'the sum of their faults'. However, I remember being at audio shows when the Monitor Gold range were marketed and just falling in love with that sound.

There's definitely something the Tannoys do that just isn't achieved by other speakers. I recall somebody in a publication once saying they gave "an enhanced sense of presence" and I think that's true of all the dual concentrics including the tulip wave guide variants, but in particular the 'pepper pot' compression horn types. I have owned many of both sorts and hear the difference.

Today, I compared my System 1000 tulip wave guide monitors to my pepperpot type Etons (both have 10" drivers) and while the System 1000 has less colouration, it just doesn't quite have the Eaton's depth of image, its still very, very good though.


Geoff.

[spendorman]

Me too, over 40 years messing with Hi Fi, and loads of speakers, still have most of them, inc ESL63's, ESL57's, Spendor BC1's, BC2's Preludes, Ditton 10's, 15's, 44's, B&W DM1, DM2, DM2a, DM3, DM4, DM5, Tangent RS2, RS4, Rogers LS2, LS7, Chartwell LS3/5a, JR 149 and many more, but for months now, the only speakers that are in use are Tannoy HPD 315's.

[synsei]

I've never owned a pair of Tannoy dual concentrics and probably never will as they are way out of my budget, however I have been exposed to the delights of a far more modest dual concentric speaker system.

Up until May this year I owned a pair of KEF Q35 MK2's, not the epitome of quality speakers granted, but good enough to sample some of the delights dual concentric drive units can bring to a party. Two things the KEF's did better than any speaker I've owned was to produce pin-point imaging and deliver an expansive soundstage. Okay, they weren't quite so good at conveying depth but that soundstage was as wide as you like, in fact the Q35's were capable of throwing the soundstage way out beyond the speakers to a point where the the confines of the room were no barrier at all and instruments and voices were placed in the image with almost military precision. Unfortunately the DM2's aren't as talented in this department but they make up for it in other ways, and they do at least convey a sense of depth. I suspect the Q35's depth issues were more to do with the somewhat cheapish cabs rather than the excellent drive units, which I still rate very highly. They were a little bass shy and the highs weren't as sweet and concise as they could have been however mids were gorgeously rendered and female vocals were shockingly realistic.

In the end their shortcomings, which were exacerbated by my current listening room, were too much to bear so I sold them on to a friend. Having heard them at his place attached to his modest system, the room in which they are now housed seems to suit the KEF's far better as there are fewer soft furnishings, plus they fire up the room instead of across it which has helped them to dig a little deeper into the bass. The lack of soft furnishings also makes them sound livlier which in turn has meant they are far more fun to listen to. My friend is very happy with them.

[sq225917]

There's two things to consider about the Tannoys, how they sound and all the 'hoopla' that comes with owning them. Like the 57's they are a speaker steeped in history and emotion and people buy into the history and the sound. I don't think that you can separate the two sides. As regards the sound they are an unremarkable speaker other than the polar response though they do seem to have a frequency response that finds favour with older ears and failing treble acuity.

I used to run a set of 12", most enjoyable things but hardly neutral. No reason not to enjoy them though.

[Ammonite Audio]

There's two things to consider about the Tannoys, how they sound and all the 'hoopla' that comes with owning them. Like the 57's they are a speaker steeped in history and emotion and people buy into the history and the sound. I don't think that you can separate the two sides. As regards the sound they are an unremarkable speaker other than the polar response though they do seem to have a frequency response that finds favour with older ears and failing treble acuity.

I used to run a set of 12", most enjoyable things but hardly neutral. No reason not to enjoy them though.

There is something inherently 'musical' about Monitor Golds (the only Tannoy DCs that I've experienced for myself). They are certainly not without colour; they don't have particularly sparkling treble, but they do music rather well. Music and musicality are very personal things/notions, so YMMV, of course. My MG15s will be treated to new crossovers (including the Sowter autoformers that Joe has been so successfully playing with) when I get back from my travels in a few months.

I did once own some KEF Q35s, which did have the imaging and soundstage attributes mentioned above, but musically they were a disaster. Rather foolishly I'd moved on to the Q35s from Epos ES14s :doh:

[walpurgis]

I think the point I was trying to get across, was that despite all their acknowledged shortcomings, the Tannoys give me something that I just don't get with any other speakers I've heard. Its difficult to put a finger on what that may be, but I get the sense that I'm not getting the full picture with other speakers. The dual concentrics, particularly the 'pepperpot' designs are incredibly revealing of system changes and on music I feel that I am hearing deeper into the whole thing than with different speakers.

The previous suggestion that they find favour with people with compromised hearing is not right I feel, I'm knocking on a bit, but I've been using Tannoys since I was in my twenties. It is true that older audio buffs often use Tannoy dual concentrics, but I think this is because like me they grew up with them and still enjoy them.

[Jonboy]

I just find they do what it says on the tin and play music very well, they always seem to bring out the best of any (mainly) valve amp i hang on the end of them. i have had esl's 57's 63'3, singles and stacked, top end Kef DC's and still think my Tannoys and others i heard are still the best all round performers.

[sq225917]

Geoff, they either have a distortion signature of a frequency/phase response anomaly that you, I and many other people like. It's not magic, it just might not be well defined exactly what that 'unique' characteristic actually is.

For me I like the way they 'shift air' they couple incredibly well to the room.

[PaulStewart]

For me the "Point Source" of the DC design just makes the imaging as good as it gets. I've got the 12" MGs in the Lockwood Academy cabs t the moment and I don't think i'll ever change them. Over the years I've had Eatons, Little Reds, Lancasters with 15"HPDs and a pair of Berkleys. I also had a pair of 6" I think they were called DC30s little book shelf jobbies I wish I had not sold.

In studios I used Lancasters, Little Reds and Dreadnoughts, when I was recording and especially mixing I always looked for studios with Tannoys and eventually started taking the Eatons round with me. I just love their coherence and presentation.

[walpurgis]

Yes, the Eatons are a sweet speaker. I've had five pairs in thirty years and still got a pair. Just refurbishing a pair of rare Cheviot 3128 speakers at the moment that sound amazing.

[southall-1998]

Are Eatons very easy to drive?

[walpurgis]

Very! 10 watts is more than enough. Geoff.

[dantheman91]

Remember the days where my dad used to pick up Tannoy Dual concentrics all them time in the late 90's early 00's nowadays you cant buy them sub £500 or £1000. i think the likes of ebay and the internet have killed the good old days of hi-fi. when you could walk into a shop and come out with some gems. Was lucky at a boot sale with a pair of III LZ's for £3 but none since. we should of kept the last 3 pairs we have owned because on each dual concentric the value goes up.


Everyone knows "Tannoy"

[DSJR]

I liked the Devon's myself, but I must admit the Turnberry SE's I had a long session with were very good indeed sans grilles, with all the main driver problems sorted (tizzy fizz and nasal glare in some older units). Almost as good as harbeth SHL5's in fact and I say that as a compliment :)

Since the average Tannoy box is fuggly as hell, I must admit to wanting to try some DMT 12's at some point. The 15's are out of the question since I have a life, new job starting and family away from stereo's (believe it or not) and the 15's are too huge to live with.

Sadly now though, the prices are ridiculous, since most old Tannoys will need expensive work, either to the crossovers, or drivers, or probably both on the mid 70's foam surround models with rotary switches for response tuning, which they all (from that period) need IMO.

[chelsea]

I really like tannoys but i'am always surprised to there lack of bass.
I think i always expect more from the big cabs.

[walpurgis]

Apparent lack of bass is not uncommon with bigger Tannoys, In each case I've come across its a positioning or room acoustic problem. Take the Devons for instance, they look compact by Tannoy standards, but they just will not work properly in a smaller room, sounding very flat and bass light, bung them in a decent sized room and they come to life.

[DSJR]

I think it's partly the efficiency being traded for bass balance with the mid - the HPD's added mass to the cone and used foam surrounds to increase bass output a bit at the expense of 2db sensitivity, which wasn't at all an issue. Set "flat," the old rotary control crossovers left a nasal sounding peak at 3kHz or so and the usual pepperpot humpty-dumpty extreme top could be dominating (not opinion, it's all easily measured and heard in comparison to better behaved speakers). I used to (have to) runn the Gold and HPD series models with the tweeter level set to minus 1 and also the roll-off switch set the same. Later crossovers with screw adjusters for level etc. were completely re-worked and cured much of the driver issues at a stroke.

[Reid Malenfant]

I really like tannoys but i'am always surprised to there lack of bass.
I think i always expect more from the big cabs.
It's probably down to the larger drivers having a low total Q or QTS. If you take Marcos' Lockwoods for instance, the 15" has a QTS of just over 0.2, which is low.

The enclosure forces the driver into what is known as an extended bass shelf response at -6dB, the best way to get that bass back is to use the room boundaries to reinforce the deep bass ;)

That's probably why Marco finds they work well in his small room backed up to the rear wall :cool:

[lewis]

I have Turnberry se's, and i love em. Very musical and enjoyable, and they have a lovely bass quality and quantity which suits my smallish room surprisingly well, considering they are fairly close to rear and side walls. The only negative is a slight mid colouration, which seems to be common to all Tannoy dc's, from what i have read. The owners manual recommends firing the speaker axes to a point slightly in front of the listening position, but i found firing them straight down the room helps reduce the colouration. Very easy to drive too, so you can treat yourself to a low powered single-ended amp!

[hifinutt]

went round my friends house recently who has built a MASSIVE and i mean massive organ in his bedroom !!!! and he is using the tannoy dc2000 as the main stereo sound in it i believe, flip me they sound so realistic, certainly if you shut your eyes you could be convinced you were in a church

[chelsea]

It's probably down to the larger drivers having a low total Q or QTS. If you take Marcos' Lockwoods for instance, the 15" has a QTS of just over 0.2, which is low.

The enclosure forces the driver into what is known as an extended bass shelf response at -6dB, the best way to get that bass back is to use the room boundaries to reinforce the deep bass ;)

That's probably why Marco finds they work well in his small room backed up to the rear wall :cool:

So is it possible to get a deep bass out of them in a bigger room?

[Reid Malenfant]

So is it possible to get a deep bass out of them in a bigger room?
Or a small room, yes ;)

[chelsea]

Yes worked well when i had a pair in a smallish place but bass was lost in the new front room.

[Reid Malenfant]

Hmmm, I can see how that might happen thinking about it :scratch:

You see with a bigger room the bass reinforcement that the room can add will occur at a lower frequency due to the room size. In a smaller room it'd probably fill in pretty well. This is going on something like Marcos Lockwoods by the way.

They happen to be about -6dB & 30Hz (-9dB @ 25Hz give or take - which is the rolloff point), with a room the size of Marcos they'll get that bass back due to room gain.

The only thing you can do is attempt to get more interaction with the room boundaries to fill in the bottom end.


This is why I prefer a smaller listening room to a bigger one, plus the lowest frequency that standing waves can be generated is raised to a frequency which is easier to deal with. In the case of my room (about 4 x 4M) it's 40Hz, any bass below that frequency is not affected by the room & is reproduced cleanly :)

[chelsea]

The room is 5mx5m but i ended up selling them and getting AN/es.

Would like to go back to a bigger pair one day.

[Reid Malenfant]

If you do, make sure that you pick some with higher QTS drivers, that way you won't have a problem with needing gain from the larger room ;)

The specs for all the Tannoy (or very nearly all) drivers are out there on the net.

Another alternative is to use something like a pair of Linkwitz/Riley transform circuits custom designed to boost that lower bass if using low QTS Tannoy drivers like Monitor Golds.

Yet another alternative would be a highish Q high pass filter to boost the bass, that would also protect the drivers from any subsonics.

As long as you can connect them between a pre & power amp, you'd be laughing.

[chelsea]

Excellent..cheers.

[walpurgis]

went round my friends house recently who has built a MASSIVE and i mean massive organ in his bedroom !!!! and he is using the tannoy dc2000 as the main stereo sound in it i believe, flip me they sound so realistic, certainly if you shut your eyes you could be convinced you were in a church

I didn't know organs came in stereo.

[spendorman]

I didn't know organs came in stereo.

Doing a search on "stereo organ", stumbled upon this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2LzSItsQ80&feature=related

Incidentally, I'm playing through Tannoy HPD 315's,

[YNWaN]

My experience is that the term 'Tannoy dual concentric' (TDC) has become a rather unfortunate global term that encompasses quite a variety of actual drivers and their implementation; ultimately, I think that these issues make more difference than whether it is dual concentric or not. For example, many TDC's are used in rear horn loaded cabinets and these give the bass a very specific sound/colouration.

I also think that the manner in which the bass cone and the tweeter cross over, and the associated 'hump', has a lot to do with the TDC 'projection'. A friend of mine has converted his Tannoy's to active operation and in building the active cross over he has flattened the frequency response. Although this is technically more accurate, a bit of the TDC subjective magic has been lost I think.

[spendorman]

Brass instruments usually sound good through Tannoy Dual Concentrics, similarity of shape?


Another version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY1fcGFpv9w&feature=related

[DSJR]

If the response has been properly flattened and the filters and frequencies used suit the drivers properly, it may be a great idea to live with them this way for a while and then go back to passive/bi-amp operation to hear what's right or wrong with this.

Tannoy spent shedloads on sorting the drivers and crossovers in the early eighties and the passive crossovers had a lot done to them at the time, I think for the better, although why the UK market was all but deprived of the top models I really don't know, as the only one to be on show to my knowledge was the Westminster Royal (KJ W1 had some in the mid 80's and they were regarded as a huge nostalgia trip IIRC).

Not as cheap as they were, but the DC2000's and 3000's were huge fun. Fugly as hell, plastic cones rather than paper and with the tulip wave-guide, but they could sound natural in a huge-hearted way with orchestral music and on rock, came into their own :)

[walpurgis]

I used a pair of DC1000 Tannoys for a year or so, they were available for £60, so I thought why not and they were fun.

I compared them to my friend's DC2000s and the DC1000s were the better focused of the two, the extra bass unit of the DC2000 seeming to cloud the lower mid a bit and affect the imaging.

But, there's no escaping the fact that the plastic cones of those DC models were definitely adding noticable colouration in the form of a twang. Later tulip waveguide versions were cleaner sounding.

[hoopsontoast]

DC1000's are cracking speakers, I picked mine up as my first pair of hifi speakers about 6-7 years ago.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6514893983_33dddb2914_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6514893983/)
pict0105a (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6514893983/) by hoopsontoast (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr

Still fancy trying another pair for fun at some point. Much faster and open, but leaner than the HPD315's (Cheviots) that replaced them.

[Reid Malenfant]

I keep forgetting that I own a pair myself :doh: A friend of mine appears to be getting a good bit of use out of them, or as I think of it, he's running them in for me :lol:

I bought a pair of centre speakers for about £99 each new (were somewhere in the region of £300 each at one time) to get the drivers. Of which there is one just here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TANNOY-SENSYS-SPEAKERS-DUAL-CONCENTRIC-DRIVER-SINGLE-/320965894484?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item4abb0ee154) :cool:


The idea to pair each driver with possibly a couple of 12" & run them to say 150Hz :)

[spendorman]

I keep forgetting that I own a pair myself :doh: A friend of mine appears to be getting a good bit of use out of them, or as I think of it, he's running them in for me :lol:

I bought a pair of centre speakers for about £99 each new (were somewhere in the region of £300 each at one time) to get the drivers. Of which there is one just here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TANNOY-SENSYS-SPEAKERS-DUAL-CONCENTRIC-DRIVER-SINGLE-/320965894484?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudio HiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item4abb0ee154) :cool:


The idea to pair each driver with possibly a couple of 12" & run them to say 150Hz :)

Yes, I bought a pair of Sensys DC1 off ebay, the guy reneged on the deal.

[Reid Malenfant]

That's a bit off :rolleyes:

[spendorman]

That's a bit off :rolleyes:

In a way, I'm glad, the guy was totally unreliable.

[Reid Malenfant]

In a way, I'm glad, the guy was totally unreliable.
As was born out by the looks of it :rolleyes: There really are some tossers on ebay, I have generally been either extremely lucky, or pretty wise, not sure which :scratch:

[spendorman]

As was born out by the looks of it :rolleyes: There really are some tossers on ebay, I have generally been either extremely lucky, or pretty wise, not sure which :scratch:

It's a long story, but at least I got my money back without too much trouble.
I generally have had good deals though.

[Reid Malenfant]

Umm, I had one very recently... No blu ray after two weeks so I got in touch, was going to get back in touch at three weeks. I got a full refund from the seller at two weeks six days :rolleyes:

No explanation, but I can only imagine that they didn't like a new & sealed BD going for the starting bid of £6.99, well start the bidding higher then you mug! :steam:

Not left feedback yet, it certainly won't be complimentary though ;)

[spendorman]

Yes, yours was a very low figure, he should have had a higher reserve.

Probably similar with the pair of Sensys DC1's for something over £100, can't remember exactly. The guy then said that one of the supertweeters was smashed. Asked him for a reduction/ refund because of the damage. Agreed a small figure, then he was never available for the speakers to be collected. Eventually refunded my money.

[Butuz]

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x412/Butuz/Hi%20Fi/P3134563.jpg

I keep trying to force myself to part with these but never quite manage to submit the for sale post :D

Butuz

[cooky]

The EBS alignment occurs when you tune the box at or very close to the Fs of the driver.
It is an ideal tuning for large enclosures in normal rooms that need positioning close to walls, note the E in EBS, that is extended-goes very deep. The Arundel in the first Prestige range was tuned to 24hz, I think the modern Canterbury 'fully open' has a similar tuning-the effect is a very breathy almost transmission line extreme low end. You can tune them to be maximally flat and have a more punchy snappy bass too....but you then need to watch you don't bottom them with deep bass.
For me the DC sound is the coherent point source/controlled dispersion. The pepper pot rolls off steeply off axis above 16khz but does project images out into the room in a very entertaining way, the bass of the larger DC's is always musical and has the ability to put a huge big grin on your face.

[Reid Malenfant]

The EBS alignment occurs when you tune the box at or very close to the Fs of the driver.
It is an ideal tuning for large enclosures in normal rooms that need positioning close to walls, note the E in EBS, that is extended-goes very deep. The Arundel in the first Prestige range was tuned to 24hz, I think the modern Canterbury 'fully open' has a similar tuning-the effect is a very breathy almost transmission line extreme low end. You can tune them to be maximally flat and have a more punchy snappy bass too....but you then need to watch you don't bottom them with deep bass.
Ah, you need to be a tad more specific :) The Extended Bass Shelf only occurs with a driver tuned close to its Fs if it happens to have a low Qts ;) In the case of the Monitor Gold 15" this is indeed the case, if you tried the same with a driver with a Qts of about 0.38, you'd end up with a fairly flat response & approximately -3dB at cutoff (Butterworth or QB3 response).

I certainly agree with the idea of using the room to get the upper hand though :)

[cooky]

Well we were talking about Tannoys but you can give any driver with a Qts of 4 and below EBS alignment.

"The idea is to intentionally design the enclosure to be 125-175% larger than the optimal calculated volume and then tune the enclosure much lower than optimal as well. The result is a significant amount of extended low frequency response.

"The name [EBS] was derived simply from the visible appearance of the response curve. The bass response is extended to a lower frequency than would be possible from the QB3 alignment, but at a lower level or shelf relative to the mid band level. Although the EBS alignment is not a nice neat flat alignment such as the QB3, it is very often a much better choice than the QB3. The EBS alignment has some interesting features. Consider a loudspeaker with a Qts of 0.30, the QB3 alignment would have about 2dB more output at a frequency of twice the Fs, while the EBS alignment would have over 2db more output at Fs. In most cases the EBS alignments will have far more subjective [low] bass than the QB3 alignments. Also, if you were to equalize the responses flat to Fs, 10db more boost would be required for the QB3 versus the EBS. This can dramatically consume large amounts of headroom in the power amplifier, and may also far exceed the linear excursion limits of the speaker. The EBS alignment will maintain much lower cone excursion at frequencies near Fb than is possible with the QB3 alignment. This can be very important for high power systems."

[Reid Malenfant]

Yes, I'd agree with all of that :) Pretty sure you meant to say a Qts of 0.4 or below though.

Considering how well they tend to match in with room gain, I'm constantly surprised that there aren't that many EBS6 designs available to purchase :scratch:

[Macca]

I sort of follow this but what is meant by 'tuning the enclosure' - ports or vents?

[Reid Malenfant]

The enclosure internal volume & the frequency the port is tuned to, yes :) Though an ABR could be used instead, it seems a tad pointless as the enclosure is likely to be more than large enough to accomodate a decent sized port at the right frequency.

ABRs tend to get used where a port would be problematic due to the small enclosure size.

[Macca]

So the enclosure must be ported for this alignment to work as intended?

[Reid Malenfant]

Ported or ABR yes :cool:

[Macca]

Cheers Mark. Are there any commercial examples?

[Reid Malenfant]

Marcos Lockwoods are about all I can think of right now :scratch: Sorry, there must be others though :eyebrows:

[Macca]

I suppose the large cab size required makes them niche market only.

[Reid Malenfant]

Well it's only large because the driver is big & has a fairly high compliance equivalent volume (Vas).

An 8" driver could be used in a much smaller enclosure obviously.

I have a few 9" drivers here that would be ideal in an EBS6 enclosure & it'd be quite small indeed & still get down to below 35Hz at very high volume :)


Right, gotta go out. Catch you soon Martin.

[cooky]

Yes, I'd agree with all of that :) Pretty sure you meant to say a Qts of 0.4 or below though.

Considering how well they tend to match in with room gain, I'm constantly surprised that there aren't that many EBS6 designs available to purchase :scratch:

Yup,:doh: darned typo.

[Mika K]

Back in the days I loved the bigger Tannoys used by my friends older brother as listeted tons of good music with those. Later owned Turnberry HEs for 3-4 years. Loved the sound but eventually went for a bigger horn solution from Altec and still from time to time think should I have tried to just improve the system with those..

Anyway, now have a change of getting smaller Tannoy Dovers as secondary speakers but can not audition and never heard these smaller ones in action. Any experience of these? Do they work with the solid stands awayfrom the walls?

http://www.libidohifi.com/zbxe/files/attach/images/50/786/009/dover12.jpg

[walpurgis]

Not heard this model, but no doubt they would be at their best off the floor and on proper steel stands. The ten inch Tannoy dual concentrics have a habit of sounding very nice indeed. These are a development from the HPD 295A (which I use) and they have the later ceramic magnet assembly, but retain a compression horn tweeter. I'd expect them to sound lovely, especially with a valve amp! Its a rare speaker.

[Mika K]

Yep, seems like I bought those Dovers.. :D

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=360868&postcount=119

[walpurgis]

Nice, they look lovely!