Mains Conditioning Systems - Discuss.

[Stu @ M Developments]

i Guys,
have had a good look around and cant find anything specifically discussing peoples personal experiences with mains conditioning systems.

I currently have a cheap and cheerful Takima mains filter fitted, and the general consensus seems to be that this will do more damage than good to the sound.

So, rooting around and discussing such things in person with Dave at MCRU has got me looking at solutions such as the Isotek solus and Aquarious.

Would love to hear peoples personal experience with such equipment before I go out and spend yet another large wad of money on such a controversial device.

[RichB]

I use the tacima with my amp, dac, tv, dvd and stb. The general consensus seems to be that they are fine for everything except amps which should go straight into the wall. Unfortunately this isnt possible for me as I only have 1 socket which i run the tacima from

When i first put it in i thought I could distinguish a tighter better bass but pretty much forgot about it after that. For the money they cost I'm happy that it provides some form of surge protection, seems solidly made and is a more 'hifi' solution than a cheap multi plug type thing. Not sure if I'd justify spending more money on mains conditioning for my gear, diminishing returns i think for my system, when i could probably acquire more components or great quality original recordings or even go on a holiday given the price of some gear.

I'm toying with the idea of trying some better mains cables for my amp and dac but couldnt really justify spending more than 50quid for one.

[MikeMusic]

i Guys,
have had a good look around and cant find anything specifically discussing peoples personal experiences with mains conditioning systems.

I currently have a cheap and cheerful Takima mains filter fitted, and the general consensus seems to be that this will do more damage than good to the sound.

So, rooting around and discussing such things in person with Dave at MCRU has got me looking at solutions such as the Isotek solus and Aquarious.

Would love to hear peoples personal experience with such equipment before I go out and spend yet another large wad of money on such a controversial device.
I found Russ Andrews silencers and purifiers worked ok.
Currently run a PS Audio PPP which does make a nice difference
Can you plug all of your kit direct into unswitched sockets ?
If not that makes a great difference for not a lot of dough
Then there's special sockets that can also help, priced accordingly.
Don't know the Solus or the Aquarious

[Beobloke]

I use an Advanced Electronics ASR250 mains regenerator to power my amplifier and turntable - I tried it in Central London and it made very little difference. Took it home to the depths of the Hampshire countryside and the differences were quite surprising.

Having tried several other filters and conditioners, I would say go for a unit that actually regenerates the mains signal rather than just faffing about with it a bit.

Also, don't worry about plugging your sources into such a unit unless it has lots of sockets that you feel obliged to use - it's the amplifier that will benefit the most from being powered by it, plus your turntable if it happens to have a synchronous AC motor.

[MartinT]

it's the amplifier that will benefit the most from being powered by it

I couldn't agree more, my power amplifier responds to regenerated power much better than the source components.

Much more on regenerators here (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15916).

[Effem]

The Belkin range of mains conditioners work very well and won't break the bank.

The PF40 has plenty of sockets on the rear so only one wall socket is needed, plus it's one of the few units I have tried that doesn't compress the sound so the amplifier can be connected through it.

Sensible money too for a PF40 on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Belkin-PureAV-Home-Theatre-Power-Console-PF40-AP21000UK3M-UK-Brand-New-/261004956698?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Surge_Pr otectors_Power_Strips&hash=item3cc51b941a#ht_914wt_952

[Ali Tait]

Yes agreed, they work very well for the money.

[synsei]

I'm very happy with the performance of the Belkin PF30 I bought from Dave Brooks, it was an excellent investment ;)

[John]

Three ways to go

1) Mains condictioners Tend to be good for Dacs Cd Players etc but generally do not work well with amplifiers
2) Balanced Mains Make sure you have plenty of headroom of power I use a 3KVA transformer works really well
3) Reginarted mains A bit more costly Yet again plenty of headroom is good advice

I would try and get a 21 day sale or return if going down option 2 or 3
In some homes they make a massive difference in other homes they seem to make little difference This could be down to a number of factors in my case my house is built in the 30s and has a Industrial Estate near by

[synsei]

The issue for me is that I only have a single socket available to power my system. I bought a good quality un-fused 2 way adapter a while back and the PF30 is plugged into one outlet and the Mini-T is plugged in t'other. The Techie, DR5, Arcam CDP, Sony MD and Caiman are all plugged into the PF30. Sometime soon I intend to upgrade the single mains socket to a good quality, unswitched double which I hope will offer up some improvement in SQ

[Stu @ M Developments]

Thanks guys, this is all usefull information.

The products I most liked the look of howevere are somewhat more expensive than the units mentioned thus far and I wonder if they are actually any better, or worse. The problem being, not being an electrical engineer, its hard to tell from specifications alone just what sort of a difference these items are going to make, if any.

Damn all this smoke, and these mirrors, at least in my trade I can strap an engine to the dyno and obtain conclusive proof without a hint of placebo. LOL

[Stu @ M Developments]

For reference, these are the products I have been considering.

Isotek Solus (http://www.isoteksystems.com/cgi-bin/products.pl?id=14)
&
Isotek Aquarious (http://www.isoteksystems.com/cgi-bin/products.pl?id=15)

[John]

I think the only way to be certain is hear it in your system

[MartinT]

+1

Find a dealer that will loan you one or do sale or return. If a conditioner doesn't do it for you, then try to loan a regenerator.

[Ali Tait]

Agreed. It's completely pointless, regardless of the retail price, until you try it at home IMHO.

[Nevalti]

Rather than look at the sine wave of the mains and see if you can improve it surely the relevant thing is to look at a sine wave of a pure tone through your equipment, including the speakers, and then see if you can improve that by introducing a conditioner/regenerator etc. If I saw a demonstration of that, I would be tempted to buy even if I could hear no improvement at that time.

The deterioration to sound varies with different equipment and where you live. I once lived near a large bakery (Mr bloody Kipling) and the only time I was totally free of mains interference was on Sundays when they didn't bake. I now live in the countryside and am very rarely aware of any problem but that may be partly due to the isolation characteristics of the Bryston power supply.

[Mr Kipling]

Really sorry about that Martin. If I'd known, I would have put the block on Saturday's production for you.

Hope you don't mind if I add my own query here, which is sort-of related. I was wondering if it's ok to bypass the plug fuses when using a distribution block. The fuse is still in the plug going to the wall socket. And IEC blocks aren't individually fused.

I intend to make my own distribution block and having the thought that the best plug and socket is no plug and socket, I am going to use solid copper busbars and screw the leads direct to them. Not the last word in practicality, but it appeals to me. And if fuses really should be used, thought about using circuit breakers. Will try the Lampizator filter which looks quite basic but is said to help.

Never thought screened mains cables were worth the bother, but after reading this article I'm going to give it a go. Would like to use solid silver but can't justify it. It will have to be OF silver plated single strand, if I can find it.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ttse.html

Kind Regards,
Stephen

[Audioman]

Hope you don't mind if I add my own query here, which is sort-of related. I was wondering if it's ok to bypass the plug fuses when using a distribution block. The fuse is still in the plug going to the wall socket. And IEC blocks aren't individually fused.

I intend to make my own distribution block and having the thought that the best plug and socket is no plug and socket, I am going to use solid copper busbars and screw the leads direct to them. Not the last word in practicality, but it appeals to me. And if fuses really should be used, thought about using circuit breakers. Will try the Lampizator filter which looks quite basic but is said to help.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ttse.html

Kind Regards,
Stephen

Stephen.

You must use fuses on UK mains systems. There was some know all peddling this idea on the Wigwam forum and he was promptly kicked off. The fuse is there to protect each cable in a ring main system. Continental systems (unfused plugs) use a spur system for which this is safe. You should have trips in a modern fuse box to give overall protection to the ring (replaced fuse wires). You obviously don't want to run the risk of burning your house down and finding you have invalidated your insurance do you? If you want there are some high quality audiophile plug fuses on the market and you could try these to see if they make any real difference.

Regards Paul.

[Mr Kipling]

Thanks for that Paul. I've had the idea for ages but never read about it elsewhere. But what about IEC blocks which only have a fuse in the plug, for UK use?

[Ali Tait]

That is protecting the lead from the block to the wall socket.

[Mr Kipling]

Thanks Ali. Yes I appreciate that. My homemade block would function in the same manner, would it not?

[Welder]

Not that I want to discourage any DIY endeavors, be they component building, or DIY upgrading, the probability is these will invalidate your insurance.

I don’t have any fuse between the RCD and the replay components and the leccy travels through a balanced power transformer a hard wired distribution block and un-fused component mains plugs.
I am however very particular about making sure each component is correctly fused and the fuses make good contact and are clean and the wire used capable of handling the current draw.

My view is unless you are going to go Martins routs and use a mains regenerator or my route, a dedicated mains, filters and conditioners are unlikely to make a significant difference for the better, neither is chucking a load of precious metals at random points in the chain.

The difference my attention to mains power made in my system had I am sorry to say, very little to do with lifting veils, deeper insight into the music, adding firmer base or even acquiring a sparkling treble and a lot more to do with not hearing noise shunted back into the mains from other domestic electrical equipment.

Whatever you decide to do, get a qualified electrician to check it over and if possible, sign it off as safe.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Never mind about invalidating the insurance - what about invalidating your life?
If there's one sure-fire certainty in hi-fi, it's that no matter how much you spend on your system or how much care and attention you lavish on it, it's going to sound really shite from the inside of your coffin.
Don't mess with the mains.

[Ali Tait]

Yes agreed, leave it to qualified people.

[Welder]

Never mind about invalidating the insurance - what about invalidating your life?
If there's one sure-fire certainty in hi-fi, it's that no matter how much you spend on your system or how much care and attention you lavish on it, it's going to sound really shite from the inside of your coffin.
Don't mess with the mains.

A decent insurance claim has always been worth more than a mere life. :eyebrows::D

[Mr Kipling]

Thanks. I'll give it some thought.

Ali T. what happened with your Audioromy 813 when the mains transformer went?

Kind Regards,
Stephen

[Nevalti]

That is protecting the lead from the block to the wall socket.

Yes, but maybe a little misleading. As long as you do not exceed 13 A, there is no way that you can over-load the house's wiring.

By leaving the fuses out of the individual plugs for each piece of equipment, you introduce no load risk to the house wiring BUT you do of course leave the individual bits of equipment and their leads unprotected. You may well set fire to any one of those and yes, you will probably invalidate your insurance.

The decision is one of risk v benefit :no: a non-starter, in my humble opinion, even IF one could hear a difference. Special leads, gold plated fuses and fuse holders etc are all questionable bearing in mind that the mains power comes to you through simple copper cables, via several fuses, circuit breakers and switches with nothing very special in the way of contacts.

[Mr Kipling]

Apart from say turntables, equipment is fused on the primory side of the transformer, which leaves the plug fuse to protect the cable. From what though? I know some think plugs and sockets make no difference, but then others do.

[Ali Tait]

Yes, but maybe a little misleading. As long as you do not exceed 13 A, there is no way that you can over-load the house's wiring.

By leaving the fuses out of the individual plugs for each piece of equipment, you introduce no load risk to the house wiring BUT you do of course leave the individual bits of equipment and their leads unprotected. You may well set fire to any one of those and yes, you will probably invalidate your insurance.

The decision is one of risk v benefit :no: a non-starter, in my humble opinion, even IF one could hear a difference. Special leads, gold plated fuses and fuse holders etc are all questionable bearing in mind that the mains power comes to you through simple copper cables, via several fuses, circuit breakers and switches with nothing very special in the way of contacts.

Yes, but my point was made from a safety point of view, as the majority reading this will not possess the technical knowledge to make an informed descision. I am also aware of how power gets to our homes as I build high voltage substations for a living.

As for leads and fuses, your comment is just your opinion. Many here swear by their effects.

[synsei]

I have a strong sense of deja vu regarding this discussion :doh:

[MartinT]

even IF one could hear a difference. Special leads, gold plated fuses and fuse holders etc are all questionable bearing in mind that the mains power comes to you through simple copper cables, via several fuses, circuit breakers and switches with nothing very special in the way of contacts.

This has been so done to death. You haven't heard a difference (or even made a comparison) yet you throw doubt on something that is very firmly established by many members here.

[John]

+1
Mains treatment will often depend on where you live but for alot of us it makes a huge difference that is repeatable and above all essential in order to get our systems sounding as good as they should

[MikeMusic]

+1
Mains treatment will often depend on where you live but for alot of us it makes a huge difference that is repeatable and above all essential in order to get our systems sounding as good as they should

+2
My system sounded horrid after I moved in 2003.
I forgot the lesson I learned in the previous house
Dedicated, unswitched sockets and an improved earth worked wonders

[jostber]

Have anyone tested or use the Vertex Jaya filter? Have been thinking of getting that.

[theriskdude]

Well thanks guys ! I use the Tacima Block as well and had never heard the "don't use it with amps" line, so i've removed mine and plugged them mine straight into the mains instead today an guess what ?....an instant noticeable improvement in SQ.

Thanks again !

Mike

[daytona600]

This has been so done to death. You haven't heard a difference (or even made a comparison) yet you throw doubt on something that is very firmly established by many members here.

well said sir try it in your own system
thought it was a load of old bollocks myself until i bought good mains cables and mains conditioners you can buy mine if you want to try them
Just waiting on some very very nice new hiend designs to arrive

[synsei]

I was a vehement sceptic concerning quality mains cables et al until I got off my lazy arse and actually bothered to audition some kit with my system and I have never looked back ;)

[MikeMusic]

well said sir try it in your own system
thought it was a load of old bollocks myself until i bought good mains cables and mains conditioners you can buy mine if you want to try them
Just waiting on some very very nice new hiend designs to arrive
Ditto
How can mains cables possibly make a difference !
Oh, they can
Whatever next
:)

[MikeMusic]

I was a vehement sceptic concerning quality mains cables et al until I got off my lazy arse and actually bothered to audition some kit with my system and I have never looked back ;)
I tried, assuming I would be going back to Ebay and no. I upgraded instead

[Daniel75]

Ditto
How can mains cables possibly make a difference !
Oh, they can
Whatever next
:)

Is there any kind of proof in a form of, for example, a measurement of how sound is actually changing? (apologies if its not clear - English is not my first language).

It shouldn't be difficult to capture? Place a mic where listening position is, play one tune, measure it. Then, for example, replace power cable and measure same song again?

Ta

D

[MikeMusic]

Is there any kind of proof in a form of, for example, a measurement of how sound is actually changing? (apologies if its not clear - English is not my first language).

It shouldn't be difficult to capture? Place a mic where listening position is, play one tune, measure it. Then, for example, replace power cable and measure same song again?

Ta

D
Not to my knowledge
Your ears tell you it is better
I was sceptical and assumed the difference would be minimal, but it was like an upgrade

[Daniel75]

Not to my knowledge
Your ears tell you it is better
I was sceptical and assumed the difference would be minimal, but it was like an upgrade

Im just wondering if there is any "scientific" proof because brain works in a very mysterious ways sometimes - ie. when you're convinced that you will hear difference - most likely you will (one example I can think of is blind test where listeners where convinced that they hear differences between speaker cables - while listening to the same cable all the time)

That not to say that buying better quality accessories is pointless. For example I simply enjoy pleasure coming from owning something well made or even beautiful.

As for sonic benefits - Im still trying to find less subjective proof than "I can hear it". For example: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#introduction

seems to have more "scientific" approach although my feeling is that this article is quite biased.

Oh - and talking about "ears". One of the best hifi upgrades I ever had was my recent trip to House of Hearing to have my ears professionally cleaned. Incredible difference - bigger than any accessory I owned.

D

[MartinT]

Dan, there are no scientific tests because we simply don't know how to measure what we hear. Double-blind tests are also questionable - I for one give them no credence. However, not to worry, you can simply use your ears and hear for yourself. The differences are often not subtle. Trust them!

[John]

Dan
It is something you have to try in your own system. But most people on AOS report good results, we even have a few people that lean towards being Objectivists who gone down this route.
The difference is not subtle in my case

[Daniel75]

Just to be clear - I dont want to start debate about cables:-)

What I noticed is that what I hear depends on many factors - time of day for example, how tired I am etc.

My next step is to get my hearing properly tested to see what I actually can't hear. I hate getting older:-)

[MikeMusic]

Just to be clear - I dont want to start debate about cables:-)

What I noticed is that what I hear depends on many factors - time of day for example, how tired I am etc.

My next step is to get my hearing properly tested to see what I actually can't hear. I hate getting older:-)

All sorts can influence how good we can hear.
Improvements in a system make it better even when you're not up to it !
Time of day can also affect the mains and I assume the sound of the system
I have found Ebay a good place to go hunting for bargains - if they don't do the job I can sell them back for much the same money. I have not sold anything on Ebay which says the items work and also I haven't got around to selling the items that have been upgraded further !
It is easy to forget English is not your first language when you seem to have it all under control
English is my first language and it can seem like its my second !
:)
Ear syringing is *very* useful to hear properly
Hearing tests, I think are academic unless your hearing is failing
My other half Sally only has one working ear, but it picks up things in great detail

[Daniel75]

All sorts can influence how good we can hear.
Improvements in a system make it better even when you're not up to it !
Time of day can also affect the mains and I assume the sound of the system
I have found Ebay a good place to go hunting for bargains - if they don't do the job I can sell them back for much the same money. I have not sold anything on Ebay which says the items work and also I haven't got around to selling the items that have been upgraded further !
It is easy to forget English is not your first language when you seem to have it all under control
English is my first language and it can seem like its my second !
:)
Ear syringing is *very* useful to hear properly
Hearing tests, I think are academic unless your hearing is failing
My other half Sally only has one working ear, but it picks up things in great detail

Thank you!

Although my system is definitely what you would describe as a "budget" one I know that I will try various upgrades. At the moment proper positioning is my main concern because I do believe that room acoustics is probably one of the most important "high fidelity" factors.

Right now Im waiting for power amp to "bi amp" my RS5's and Im really curious if I will hear "change" - or improvement indeed.

I guess at the end of the day it doesn't really matter If change is real or it is my brain playing tricks as long as it makes me happy:-)

One thing I could hear properly recently though - was a difference between playing files and then listening to LP's. Although I used very, very cheap turntable - despite all my scepticism - analogue sound was a revelation. Cant wait to buy decent turntable and phono stage. I can sense my wallet screaming already:)

[John]

Lots of factors can effect sound what I seem to get with the balanced mains is more consistency too

[MartinT]

At the moment proper positioning is my main concern because I do believe that room acoustics is probably one of the most important "high fidelity" factors.

Your room has pretty much the biggest influence on sound, so you're right to address that first.

[Stratmangler]

I hate getting older:-)

You should have got used to it by now - you've been doing it every second of every day of your life so far :)

[MikeMusic]

Thank you!

Although my system is definitely what you would describe as a "budget" one I know that I will try various upgrades. At the moment proper positioning is my main concern because I do believe that room acoustics is probably one of the most important "high fidelity" factors.

Right now Im waiting for power amp to "bi amp" my RS5's and Im really curious if I will hear "change" - or improvement indeed.

I guess at the end of the day it doesn't really matter If change is real or it is my brain playing tricks as long as it makes me happy:-)

One thing I could hear properly recently though - was a difference between playing files and then listening to LP's. Although I used very, very cheap turntable - despite all my scepticism - analogue sound was a revelation. Cant wait to buy decent turntable and phono stage. I can sense my wallet screaming already:)
Sounds like you are going in the right direction
The aim is to get the best quality sound you can -more music - with what you have, then address issues one at a time to make it better
With advice from the assembled here you can keep the spend sensible

[jostber]

Have anyone tested or use the Vertex Jaya filter? Have been thinking of getting that.

Found this:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=128665&highlight=jaya#post128665

[AlanS]

Anyone tried the AG1500-PSU 1500W AC ReGenerator.
From Power Inspired? Available on ebay uk. More than a Conditioner.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Guys!

I thought this might be a good place to advertise my Isotek GII Nova, I've owned it now for 2 years and its in mint condition. Originally cost £2999, now can be found on the net for £2750. I have the original Isotek box and leads, and everything else that goes with it. I'm looking for £1000 ovno, will post some pictures in next few hours.

A

[MCRU]

Buy one that suits your budget, if there is an improvement in sound quality and you are happy with what you have paid (as an example Martin T's latest mains lead from me) then keep it, if not send it back, simples!

Solus | Aquarius | Sigmas | Titan | Nova | Super Titan | Genesis

There is one to suit every budget, I did tell Stu that Isotek are launching a new 6 way mains strip soon for £250 so every budget is catered for, keep it sensible I suggest, a Genesis at £13k is no good for a £5k system!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Dave,

PM sent.

[electric beach]

Found this:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=128665&highlight=jaya#post128665

I still use the Jaya, it's proving to be quite effective seperating SMPS power supplies from the linear ones plugged into the Taga distribution block. I still consider it a very efficient unit for the money; wherever I use it I never fail to hear the difference.

[electric beach]

Anyone tried the AG1500-PSU 1500W AC ReGenerator.
From Power Inspired? Available on ebay uk. More than a Conditioner.

Yes, I have the 1500w version. My complete system registers zero draw on the display. I thought it wasn't working but the TV and PS3 jump it up to 43% :confused:

It's given me the late night sound all day but late night is still different - but even better. I'm very happy with the benefit it's brought, the fan noise is not an issue. At first it seemed to put a blanket over the sound but when I plugged everything into it the transformation was just what I was hoping for.

[AlanS]

Yes, I have the 1500w version. My complete system registers zero draw on the display. I thought it wasn't working but the TV and PS3 jump it up to 43% :confused:

It's given me the late night sound all day but late night is still different - but even better. I'm very happy with the benefit it's brought, the fan noise is not an issue. At first it seemed to put a blanket over the sound but when I plugged everything into it the transformation was just what I was hoping for.

Sounds what Im looking for. Cheers