View Full Version : Albarry's
trio leo
30-07-2012, 11:52
I have always been a fan of Albarry products and I still use a pair of the original M408's.
The current review in HiFi+ has a lot of positive things to say about the AP11 Pre-amp and the M608 Mono-bloc power amps, in fact the reviewer was so impressed he now uses the amps in preference to his Accuphase(another brand I have a great deal of respect for).
It's about time this iconic brand got the recognition it deserves and to have a product designed and hand built in the UK is a refreshing change,unlike so many "British" products now farmed out to China.
I have heard the AP11/M608 combo and I think they are fast, dynamic, articulate and musically involving and I believe, for the money unbeatable.
I have had the new M1108's at home and they are so good I didn't want to give them back, they are stunning and worthy of the title Flagship IMO.
Last weekend I heard them on a better system than mine and everyone there agreed they are remarkable amplifiers, whilst the M608's are superb amps the M1108's just did more of ....EVERYTHING!!!!
To be fair it is horses for courses the M1108's are almost twice the price of the M608's and the M1108's may be a little overpowering in some systems.
Not forgetting the super little MCA11 battery powered MC step up amplifier, I received one of these for Christmas and it brought my cartridges to life, for the quality it is excellent value at £500.
I really hope that some of you will take the chance to hear Albarry's, you may be pleasantly surprised.
Enjoy your music
regards Al
We know already, but like much top end gear made in the UK, the stuff is priced for rich export clients
Lovely stuff, especially the power amps. The pricing on the home market will deprive so many of the pleasure of ownership and using the stuff :(
jandl100
31-07-2012, 06:36
We know already, but like much top end gear made in the UK, the stuff is priced for rich export clients
Lovely stuff, especially the power amps. The pricing on the home market will deprive so many of the pleasure of ownership and using the stuff :(
"Elsewhere on the interweb" it has been suggested that Albarry would have been better off to sell direct in the UK rather than have a dealers' margin plonked on top - that does seem to have helped make them uncompetitive in the current UK economic climate.
Shame. Nice kit.
Small British firms with interesting kit (I am thinking of Papworth, but I'm sure there are others) don't bother much with the UK market place - they export most of their stock and are happy to do so.
sq225917
31-07-2012, 06:58
It's the same story for me with Trilogy, great stuff but twice the piece it should be tO dent the uk market.
hifi_dave
31-07-2012, 08:23
I don't agree. When you compare what you actually get in terms of components, build, performance and sound, they are still very competitive.
I regularly flip through Hi-Fi News and Hi-Fi World and see products at 2, 3 and 4 times the price of Albarry and it doesn't compare, except maybe, in having wonderful casework, packaging and marketing BS.
The M608s are £2557 inc VAT and compare very favourably with many similarly priced products in our market. IMO
You know as well as I do Dave, that so much imported bling is just that - bought with the eyes yet with very little inside to justify the retail cost - intellectual property in the design be damned...
We'll have to give tha 608's another go "next time" :)
I've not heard the M608s, but I wouldn't consider £2557 expensive today for high-quality monoblock amplifiers. Like Dave says, just look at what some others charge for similar (or sometimes lesser) products!
As for selling direct, sure, but sometimes to maximise on sales, it's more advantageous for a manufacturer to take advantage of a dealer's well-established customer base, and his rapport with those customers :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
31-07-2012, 10:00
I won't mention names but a trawl through the last year's worth of Hi-Fi News and Hi-Fi World reveals a heap of products, some British, some imported, which are far higher priced than Albarry. Often, pics are shown of the internals and I'm staggered at just how little there is inside some of these megabuck products.
Now, I'm not a designer or engineer but I do have some inkling of the cost of parts and the prices really don't stack up. All I can think of is that we are asked to pay for wonderful metalwork, marketing and packaging - none of which has any bearing on the sound. Also, imported products are going through the hands of a distributor, which also adds considerably to the cost.
Do the same check on Albarry and the products appear to be good value and don't forget that £426.16 of that price is VAT.
hifi_dave
31-07-2012, 10:37
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/037.jpg
Did I mention these ?
Hi
How is the Croft Series 7R compared to the M608.
best jan
hifi_dave
31-07-2012, 12:04
I can't really answer that. A better comparison would be the Croft 7R mono-blocks and both they and the Albarry are extremely good amps. I can listen to either and not yearn for a £10K USA muscle amp..:rolleyes:
trio leo
31-07-2012, 12:26
Also take into account that many amplifiers have 1 casing,1 transformer, 1 set of capacitors and components.
Albarry's have 2 of everything, have you seen the size of the transformers and capacitors in those things.
Neil Burnett is a non compromising engineer, the sound quality is paramount and he will only use the best components for the job.
I have also heard the Albarry's defeat several High End 1 box amplifiers that are 2 or 3 times the price.
I think for the ball park they are playing in they are incredible value for money, in fact after hearing them one guy thought the price was per box!
I think Albarry prefer to go through reputable dealers for their knowledge,commitment to quality products and a customer base that has faith in their selection of products.
At least if you go to a good dealer you can hear comparisons at the shop, then you can take it home and try it, don't like it, try something else and at no cost.
You buy something on the internet and you don't like it TOUGH! it's yours.
My local HiFi shop (Audio Works Cheadle) are always helpful,courteous and obliging not omitting passionate about customers hearing music and I prefer to spend my money there than some faceless website.
regards Al
sq225917
31-07-2012, 15:02
Blimey they do get a good review don't they. Just a shame I have no idea who the reviewer is and as such his opinions and words are valueless to me.
This is one thread I don't mind shilling on, since I met Neil many many years ago and liked his quiet friendly and sincere manner. Had I not been into valves back then and finding his preamps a bit too controlled and "methodical" sounding, I should have considered them.
As it is, old Albarry amps have always had a good place in user's hearts, even though the older ones may have been difficult to repair when Neil left the industry for a long period. Hopefully this isn't an issue now and I also hope he has an apprentice waiting in the wings to carry the brand on in future decades.
To answer a post about having a small but dedicated dealer network, I appreciate the prices could be rather lower without dealers, but in this case, Neil worked WITH his dealers, rather than upsetting them and falling out if their opinions differed from his. He does a neat little MC active step-up stage. T'would be interesting to see how that works in his system, as well as into a Crofty preamp :)
As it is, old Albarry amps have always had a good place in user's hearts, even though the older ones may have been difficult to repair when Neil left the industry for a long period. Hopefully this isn't an issue now and I also hope he has an apprentice waiting in the wings to carry the brand on in future decades.
To my knowledge this isn't a problem right now, I emailed Neil recently before buying my Albarry PP1 and he replied that he will now repair older models. This is backed up by his website information too :)
http://www.albarrymusic.com
hifi_dave
31-07-2012, 17:24
We sold dozens and dozens of M408s in the 80's plus quite a few integrated amps and I don't recall ever having a faulty one but in the unlikely event, Albarry will now service and repair at very reasonable rates.
sq225917
31-07-2012, 19:17
What is it with British companies (Albarry) that makes them think that a website that looks like shit is going to help their business? I despair, honestly. Low res background images that don't tile, headers with aliasing, Illegible text....
What is it with British companies (Albarry) that makes them think that a website that looks like shit is going to help their business? I despair, honestly. Low res background images that don't tile, headers with aliasing, Illegible text....
Quintessential British charm? No, probably not... At least the amps sound fab and they're spending time and effort on getting that right! ;)
jandl100
01-08-2012, 08:15
You buy something on the internet and you don't like it TOUGH! it's yours.
No :nono: that is simply not true.
For UK purchases, you are protected by the Distance Selling laws and can return goods for any reason and get a full refund.
There are several UK companies of excellent repute who rely solely or mainly on internet sales. My fave Amptastic of Mini-T fame being one of them. Great product, great service, great price. :thumbsup:
You pay a lot for the benefits of bricks & mortar dealer support.
sq225917
01-08-2012, 08:26
Quintessential British charm? No, probably not... At least the amps sound fab and they're spending time and effort on getting that right! ;)
Quintessential British lack of business nowse. Who else would try and sell a luxury product and support it via an ill considered online shop front?
trio leo
01-08-2012, 10:14
Ok Simon, the review is meaningless because you don't know the reviewer and the Albarry website is not produced by a web designer, do you have anything positive to say, have you ever heard any Albarry products?
Agreeing with Alex, their best efforts go into producing superb amplifiers.
Jerry, thank you I stand corrected, I was aware you could send back goods if they were faulty,broken or not fit for purpose, I wasn't aware you could send something back just because you didn't like it. plus the cost of returning a possibly heavy item
Personally with something like HiFi equipment I would rather hear it at a dealers before purchasing and I'm sure there are many dealers who really love what they do in bringing music to their customers.
Enjoy your music
regards Al
Of little interest here, but one manufacturer who used to make some well received separates and is now mail order on the two products they assemble here, make a re-stocking charge on any returns I understand. I suspect that just opening the boxes is enough and I believe that on their site, it's been said that the special order top model cannot be returned at all. I don't know exactly how this stands in law, but please don't think that buying online means you can have something for a weeks w@nk and then return for a full refund.............
As an aside, the input impedance of the Albarry power amps appears to be frighteningly low at 5k1 ohms (5.1k). With a modern ss preamp, this may not be at all an issue, but some valve based preamps may not quite match, although Glenn's products, which I've tried with the 608's, seemed ok to me.....
Alan Sircom
01-08-2012, 11:30
To sum up:
Good review - never heard of the reviewer, don't buy it
Good review from a reviewer they know well - reviews don't count, don't buy it
'four star' review - the product is carcinogenic and liable to explode, don't buy it
Good review from a forum - company shill, don't buy it
Bad review from a forum - told you so, don't buy it
Good reviews from 250 different places, one mediocre review - the mediocre one is right, don't buy it
Slick website - money spent on marketing, don't buy it
Clunky website - can't trust a company that doesn't know how to market itself, don't buy it
Sold at a dealer - rip off, don't buy it
Sold direct - not good enough to be sold at a dealer, don't buy it
Second-hand for more than half retail price (irrespective of condition) - too expensive, don't buy it
Second-hand for less than half retail price (irrespective of condition) - too cheap, must be broken, don't buy it
It seems to everyone (at home and abroad) that we're too busy moaning about stuff to buy stuff. Unless it's Apple stuff. It says something that we buy less hi-fi (by value and volume) than Portugal, despite that country's economic implosion and the fact it has roughly one-seventh the population of the UK.
hifi_dave
01-08-2012, 11:33
Never had any trouble over the years with matching. Back in the day we used to sell many Albarry power-amps with Croft but also Audio Research, Counterpoint and CJ.
As to the website - I believe Neil should be cut a bit of slack. He has restarted this business on a very tight budget. At present, all income is going on stock with nothing spent on advertising or reps on the road, in an effort to keep overheads in check. A wonderful website with pro pictures costs a lot of money and his present site gives all the info any prospective customer needs. At least there is a website..:rolleyes:
. It says something that we buy less hi-fi (by value and volume) than Portugal, despite that country's economic implosion and the fact it has roughly one-seventh the population of the UK.
They were claiming on the radio the other day that Portugal has higher overall broadband speed than the UK. Portugal? I seriously doubt it, just as I doubt they spend more than the UK on hi-fi - I think it's just another 'factoid' - like the one about Cuba having a world class health service.
Elephantears
01-08-2012, 12:37
As an aside, the input impedance of the Albarry power amps appears to be frighteningly low at 5k1 ohms (5.1k). With a modern ss preamp, this may not be at all an issue, but some valve based preamps may not quite match, although Glenn's products, which I've tried with the 608's, seemed ok to me.....
So can you give me some guidance on what pre-amps are likely to work with the Albarry monos? As I've reported on pfm a few days ago, I have a pair of the M608's but sadly don't have the pre. I'd hate to have to sell the 608's because I can't afford the Albarry pre, so I'm interested in other preamps that might work well with it.
Maybe there isn't an issue, and perhaps asking Neil himself what he thinks is the best course of option here. if it works for you, then it works for you and you'll certainly do no harm at all in trying...
When we last heard the 608's, we used the matching pre, which I found a bit too controlled and "dead" if anything. Changing to the Croft 25 at just over a thirs of the price, seemed to bring the life back although some might find it a bit raw in comparison (I don't know). The 25R may be an excellent half-way point, as it's a tad more subtle in delivery. As for vintage preamps, the AVI lab series one is sturdily made, was designed from the outset to drive a low inpedance load over a long run and should sound very good as my earlier S2000MP+P does.
I'm going to duck out of this thread now, as a certain gent at NVA has quoted one of my above posts in full on his revamped forum, slating it for blatant shilling. I shall say no more but I wish he'd get to know me first before constantly slagging me off :(
sq225917
01-08-2012, 12:59
Ok Simon, the review is meaningless because you don't know the reviewer and the Albarry website is not produced by a web designer, do you have anything positive to say, have you ever heard any Albarry products?
Yeh, I like the red plastic.
I heard them at one of the trade shows, Audioworks were playing them in the room with the rattly ceiling and the upper corner boom. Paul Benge from ABC-Audio was similarly afflicted in the same room the previous year so I gave the system the benefit of doubt.
Alan Sircom
01-08-2012, 13:30
They were claiming on the radio the other day that Portugal has higher overall broadband speed than the UK. Portugal? I seriously doubt it, just as I doubt they spend more than the UK on hi-fi - I think it's just another 'factoid' - like the one about Cuba having a world class health service.
AFAIK, Portugal spent more money on one one brand of high-end British-made CD players last year than the UK spent on CD players in total. It's why I singled the country out.
Aside from sales of headphones in the €200+ market (where we buy more than any other European country), if we were buying audio equipment in proportion to our population, the rest of Europe and and our relative wealth, we should be buying about £250m worth of AV equipment and nearly £175m worth of hi-fi separates per year. We spent £167m on AV equipment and around £80m worth of hi-fi separates last year.
So can you give me some guidance on what pre-amps are likely to work with the Albarry monos? As I've reported on pfm a few days ago, I have a pair of the M608's but sadly don't have the pre. I'd hate to have to sell the 608's because I can't afford the Albarry pre, so I'm interested in other preamps that might work well with it.
Generic advice suggests you need a preamp of 500 ohms output impedance or less. That covers most solidstate and some valve preamps.
Quintessential British lack of business nowse. Who else would try and sell a luxury product and support it via an ill considered online shop front?
An engineer would, which is precisely why Albarry and LFD appeal to me (it was a choice between the M608 and PA2M SE for me, I went for the LFD)... these guys are not marketers & although the products are quite expensive and the websites a bit idiosyncratic you get the reassurance that they are hand built by the actual designers in the UK... have you seen the Helius website?! Stunning tonearms though...
It's the same reason I had some much confidence in buying my Audial Model S DAC... had I believed the marketing comparable products come from the likes of Audio Note and Zanden's top-end DACs, which are horrifically overpriced...
If a company is trying to appeal to to a mass market then it needs slick marketing.
Selling to specialist hobbyists in a small market is another story. Indeed being too slick could be a turn-off for some.
Elephantears
01-08-2012, 17:13
Generic advice suggests you need a preamp of 500 ohms output impedance or less. That covers most solidstate and some valve preamps.
The preamps that I've tried all obeys that demand, but apart from the very different personalities of the preamps, the differences in gain are very significant and seem to contribute inordinately to the sonic personality. The difficulty I'm having is working out a well matched gain structure for the system as a whole.
Err ... I do believe you can, actually! :eyebrows: OK, you have to pay the return postage or take it back yourself.
Buy online -- you know it makes sense! (It really does!) :D
Even buying from a bricks & mortar dealer online gives you these legal return rights! :thumbsup:
Demonstration room dems are often pretty useless - try it at home in your own system and room for a week! Yaay - way to go!
Hi,
That is true. The distance selling regs of 2000 allow at least 7 days cool off period. It can be even up to 30 days.
http://www.onlineshoppingrights.co.uk/understanding-uk-distance-selling-regulations.html
Elephantears
01-08-2012, 21:14
It's a shame that there aren't more people with experience of Albarry to share. I hope that will change over the next year or so. But there must be more old M408 users out there with things to say, surely?
Off-topic posts have now been moved to here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19554
This thread is now strictly about Albarry amps and their functionality/sonic prowess thereof.
:)
Marco.
trio leo
01-08-2012, 23:52
I agree with you Simon, I went to Whittlebury and heard the Albarry dem, it was OK with some kinds of music but not so with others, the room wasn't good and I thought maybe the speakers were a bit too big for that room.
I hope you get the chance to hear them in a better environment, or maybe hear them at home.
The trick with Albarry's is to leave them switched ON, permanently, my M408's have been on for 25 years and they are still exciting.
Enjoy your music
regards Al
The 608's sound fine from switch-on and don't need warming up to any great degree. can't speak for the preamp though and I need more exposure to it to form a positive opinion. With the much cheaper Croft 25 or 25R, the 608's sing straight away to my ears...
I went to Whittlebury and heard the Albarry dem, it was OK with some kinds of music but not so with others,...
I also attended Whittlebury and heard the Albarry demo; I'm afraid I wasn't convinced. Perhaps it was the Tannoy speakers (which I hadn't heard before), or the CD source. Whatever the reason, I look forward to a better dem and the opportunity to hear them performing as others have described.
I agree with you Simon, I went to Whittlebury and heard the Albarry dem, it was OK with some kinds of music but not so with others, the room wasn't good and I thought maybe the speakers were a bit too big for that room.
I hope you get the chance to hear them in a better environment, or maybe hear them at home.
The trick with Albarry's is to leave them switched ON, permanently, my M408's have been on for 25 years and they are still exciting.
Enjoy your music
regards Al
Why?
The trick with Albarry's is to leave them switched ON, permanently
That's the advice Neil (Burnett) gave me for the PP1 - he was right too :)
trio leo
02-08-2012, 21:23
It was explained to me that the capacitors get up to 62.3% very quickly, then it takes quite a while to fully charge up.
I don't know an Ohm from a watt, but it is not to do with the actual temperature when they "warm up" it's to do with the capacitors apparently.
I think the power amps from "cold" sound uninviting, but after 20-30 minutes you can hear them become more lucid.
It states in the hand book that comes with the amps that one should allow 24 hrs for optimum performance and according to Neil they are designed to be left on, the pre-amp and power amps combined use 8 watts when in "standby" mode.
Given that they use so little energy and they are so reliable, leave them on IMO.
Enjoy your music
regards Al
That's the advice Neil (Burnett) gave me for the PP1 - he was right too :)
..same with LFD and Exposure they are a bit bright when you first switch them on. Sounds way better when left on all the time same with my NVA headphone amp and I suspect the same with Naim amps...
The trick with Albarry's is to leave them switched ON, permanently, my M408's have been on for 25 years and they are still exciting.
Has your amp been re-capped in that time? Electrolytic capacitors in use continuously for 25 years have to be shagged by now! 219,000 hours is a loooong time, the most important factor in determining their their lifetime is temperature but those caps are elderly whatever the temp.
Elephantears
03-08-2012, 10:47
I have a dumb question, but its bugged me for years. With these power amps that need to be left on and warmed up for a day, what happens if you switch them off for a few minutes? Do you have to start all over again? This is a critical question when comparing pre-amps. Can I switch off for a minute to change pre-amps without having to warm up again for 24 hours? Sorry, its probably very obvious.
If the capacitors really take 24 hours to reach full charge (very, very weird) then having speakers plugged into the amp outputs will probably discharge them. If the amps are stable without a load across their outputs then removing the speaker connections may prevent the capacitors discharging.
hifi_dave
03-08-2012, 11:04
You needn't lose any sleep over such matters. All amps sound better once they are warmed up but this usually occurs after an hour or so and it isn't a night and day difference - just a very slight change.
I'd also respectfully repeat that the 608's have the benefit of more modern and better intrinsically matched components these days. This in itself should enable the amps to fully stabilise much quicker now.
trio leo
03-08-2012, 12:02
To be honest Clive, Neil (Burnett) "serviced" them about 6 years ago, I don't know if they were recapped or not, they sounded good before and they sound good now, maybe they were re-capped, but 20 years or so on original capacitors is pretty good eh.
I'm not saying they NEED 24hrs to fully charge up, as HiFi Dave said they sound fine after an hour or so as probably a lot of amps do, I'm not being drawn into an argument about capacitors, I don't know the first thing about electronics, as I stated before it is how Neil explained it to me.
I have faith in Neil, he designs amps to last a long time and I enjoy the musical involvement Albarry's bring to my system, especially the little moving coil amplifier, it has enhanced my enjoyment of my Vinyl collection tremendously.
I'll be glad when I can afford a new pre / power combo
enjoy your music
regards Al
Elephantears
03-08-2012, 12:24
I do believe that the M608's sounds considerably better after 24 hours; it seems pretty clear to me that there is more body to the sound. But I don't know if that difference happened in 5 hours, 12 hours, or the full 24. I'm not doing any rigorous tests and I'm not likely to in the future, but I am sure that 24 hours is better than 1 hour warm up. The question remains as to whether I negate that advantage by switching the amps off to change pre-amps. Obviously I am not going to be able to tell by ear, since I've got the big difference the change of pre-amps makes to take in to account.
I'm not saying they NEED 24hrs to fully charge up, as HiFi Dave said they sound fine after an hour or so as probably a lot of amps do, I'm not being drawn into an argument about capacitors, I don't know the first thing about electronics, as I stated before it is how Neil explained it to me.
l
I'm not looking for an argument at all, my comment on capacitor lifetime wasn't a criticism, just a statement of what happens to capacitors. Look at how many Naim's get recapped.
20 years is indeed a very good lifetime. 10 to 15 is typical for most equipment.
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