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View Full Version : How many brands for the TC-7510 DAC ?



pecosbill76
26-01-2009, 20:46
Hello from Italy and sorry for my bad English !

Yesterday I have bought my new Beresford TC-7510 with mod 21 and now I'm waiting its shipping.

Now i'm using a TCC TC-7510 whose shape is identical to the shape of Beresford's DAC.

What is my TCC-TC7510 ?

A copy of Beresford ?
A clone identical to Berewsford from the point of view of sound quality ?
A bad sounding imitation ?
Is Beresford the "Original Swiss Rolex" and TCC its chinese fake ?

Please, explain this to me !!

Daniele
http://www.playstereo.com/images/prod_tcc_tc-7510.jpg

P.S.

For example: what is this ?
Neither Beresford, neither TCC: this in UNBRANDED...
http://home.comcast.net/~imagecenter08/DAC.jpg

StanleyB
26-01-2009, 22:23
The last one looks like a Vordermart copy....

Gazjam
26-01-2009, 23:54
I smell fish...... :scratch:

Usual suspects Stan?

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 05:53
Misguided researcher.

pecosbill76
27-01-2009, 08:31
So the "original" is the Beresford and others are fakes using the same metal case but poor electronics inside ?:confused:

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 09:48
So the "original" is the Beresford and others are fakes using the same metal case but poor electronics inside ?:confused:
Does it matter? And to whom?

Marco
27-01-2009, 11:05
Yes, Pecos, could you please 'change the record' and stop the cross-examining? You seem to be obsessed with the Beresford DAC and "fakes"... Let's move on to something else now - thanks! :)

Marco.

leo
27-01-2009, 12:47
Only thing I'd say on the subject is if in doubts just buy the unit direct from Stan rather than risking spending on units your not sure of, this should at least put your mind at rest.

Marco
27-01-2009, 14:00
I think that some clarity overall on this issue as to what exactly is what would be appreciated by everyone concerned, which I'm sure Stan will happily provide :)

My apologies to Daniele if his enquiry is genuine, and I will certainly give him the opportunity to prove that's the case, but unfortunately we also have to be mindful of Stan's many disgruntled competitors out there (some disguised with pseudonyms) whose agenda is, shall we say, not entirely of a constructive nature...

Marco.

Steve Toy
27-01-2009, 14:31
Pecos,

Can you please introduce yourself by starting a new thread in the Welcome area at the top of the forum home page. We like to address each other by genuine first names here and basically feel as though we are exchanging messages with real people.

Marco
27-01-2009, 14:33
I believe he's now added "Daniele" to the end of his posts, Steve, so that's a start :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
27-01-2009, 15:49
Progress!

Stan,

I may be interested in purchasing one of your DACS to get me going down the computer audio route. However, if it is better than the built-in DAC on my Bel Canto CD2 that would be an added bonus.

Either way, for the money I'm sure it is a steal and a true high SPPV product in keeping with the AOS tradition.

My amp was a Puresound before it was modified by AnthonyTD. Puresound import these amps from the same factory in China as the Bewitch amp but as well as having been made completely safe for use with UK voltages and carrying CE approval, it has undergone a few improvements to make it a 30 Watt Class A design instead of the 60 Watt Class A/B design that is the standard Bewitch.

I was wondering if something similar is happening with the TC-7510 DAC, i.e. there is a factory stock item out there, perhaps in a few guises and then the superior Beresford.

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 16:19
A lot of the artwork for the front panel of the MK6 was done by our own Gazgam. I had no idea he was from China:confused:.

Stan

Gazjam
27-01-2009, 16:21
Hello from Italy and sorry for my bad English !

Yesterday I have bought my new Beresford TC-7510 with mod 21 and now I'm waiting its shipping.



Can I ask, where did you buy the Dac - with its Mod21?

As far as Im aware only Stan Beresford sells these, and the photo you shown wasn't one of his.

Stan's Dacs dont look like those, and he doesn't sell ones that look like that.

Im confused, perhaps you could clear it for us?


Thanks :)


*EDIT*
Just reread your original post, you have ordered the Dac with Mod21 but not received it. I understand now. :)

Where did you buy the one you have now though?
Would be good to know where NOT to get inferior "lookalikes" from. Perhaps someone else might be fooled into buying a non Beresford Dac thinking he was getting something really special.

Thanks.

Mike
27-01-2009, 16:28
Can I ask, where did you buy the Dac - with its Mod21?

As far as Im aware only Stan Beresford sells these, and the photo you shown wasn't one of his.

Stan's Dacs dont look like those, and he doesn't sell ones that look like that.

Im confused, perhaps you could clear it for us?


Thanks :)

I could be wrong, but I read it as he's just bought a Beresford (presumably from Stan) to use in place of his current DAC which appears to be a clone/copy of some sort?

:confused:

Gazjam
27-01-2009, 16:31
Yup, spot-on Mike.

I had a brain fart, :doh: editied my oroginal post!

leo
27-01-2009, 17:18
Can I ask, where did you buy the Dac - with its Mod21?

As far as Im aware only Stan Beresford sells these, and the photo you shown wasn't one of his.

Stan's Dacs dont look like those, and he doesn't sell ones that look like that.

Im confused, perhaps you could clear it for us?


Thanks :)


*EDIT*
Just reread your original post, you have ordered the Dac with Mod21 but not received it. I understand now. :)

Where did you buy the one you have now though?
Would be good to know where NOT to get inferior "lookalikes" from. Perhaps someone else might be fooled into buying a non Beresford Dac thinking he was getting something really special.

Thanks.

I presume he got the picture from here going by the Speciality AV watermark http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-to-Analog-Stereo-Audio-Converter,Switch-TC-7510_W0QQitemZ370150312298QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ200 90126?IMSfp=TL090126156008r35452

I'd imagine these units maybe based on older versions

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 17:49
I'd imagine these units maybe based on older versions
It would be a crime to break up previous versions when even a MK1 can command more than 70% of its original price from 2006. There aren't many pieces of level entry audio equipment that can boast that they can hold their value so well. And whilst many harbour the wish to own one of the more exotically expensive ones, the TC-7510 is still one of the view more desirable DACs that many would like to start off with.

Stan

Beechwoods
27-01-2009, 18:32
It must be bloody annoying to see your designs ripped off like this. I don't suppose you've much recourse, apart from spending lots of money on lawyers - but on eBay you could consider requesting that the listings are removed as counterfeit goods.

purite audio
27-01-2009, 20:27
Whose is ripping off Stan's designs the company in Taiwan that makes them?

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 20:43
Whose is ripping off Stan's designs the company in Taiwan that makes them?
Nope, but after spending the last couple of years answering the same question in various forums I do think it ain't worth my time to keep repeating myself. I got rid of my auto repeating turntable in the 80's. Remember them?

purite audio
27-01-2009, 20:56
Stan designs them and they are made by ,
http://php2.twinner.com.tw/site/home/technolink/Main.php?Company_SN=2280

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 21:06
Stan designs them and they are made by ,
http://php2.twinner.com.tw/site/home/technolink/Main.php?Company_SN=2280

If you look at the top lefthand corner of the bottom picture in the first post on http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1906 you'll see it is written 'designed in England'. Nothing against Wales or Scotland mind you:).

STan

leo
27-01-2009, 21:56
A lot of hifi products are designed in one country and manufactured in another to keep costs down, as long as the designer is happy with the quality control is whats important :)

pecosbill76
27-01-2009, 22:12
Hi friends !!

My name is Daniele and I write from the north of Italy: about 50 Km far from Turin.

I apologize for my bad English. I usually write using italian language and my english is only good to write simple words...so i can be misunderstand...

About the DAC...

I already have in my hands a TC-7510 bought from the only Italian seller of this item: see the link:
http://www.playstereo.com/product_info.php?products_id=384

Reading that italian site, on the 8th row of the description of the dac ( in italian ) :
Si tratta dello stesso identico apparecchio commercializzato anche come Beresford TC-7510

This means: THIS IS THE SAME APPARATUS ALSO SOLD AS BERESFORD TC-7510

Is this a true sentence ? Is this a swindle ?

THIS IS MY QUESTION !

You know what I did ???
Two days ago I bought this, BEFORE i wrote this post !!!:
http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=320335163921

Ebay auction number 320335163921 : a TRUE Beresford TC-7510.
MINE Beresford TC-7510 ! ( I think it's now flying to Italy... )

Maybe it was written before, but I didn't read it anywere... ( remember: my understanding of english language is not so good...)

So, what is exactly Beresford TC-7510 in comparison to TCC Tc-7510 or others TC-7510 DACs ?

An handicraft improved version of a "standard" DAC called TC-7510, maybe ?

Please: no misunderstanding.

I just want to KNOW !


Thanks

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 22:19
Please: no misunderstanding.

I just want to KNOW !


Thanks
When you get your Beresford version, just connect it to your system and listen to it. If it sounds the same, just send it back for a refund:). That's the only way you'll know if what you have is the same or not.

Stan

pecosbill76
27-01-2009, 22:22
I could be wrong, but I read it as he's just bought a Beresford (presumably from Stan) to use in place of his current DAC which appears to be a clone/copy of some sort?

:confused:

This is what happened !

pecosbill76
27-01-2009, 22:24
When you get your Beresford version, just connect it to your system and listen to it. If it sounds the same, just send it back for a refund:). That's the only way you'll know if what you have is the same or not.

Stan


Sure !

...but...i won't send it back to You for a refund: i WANT an original Beresford DAC and NOT a.... what the f*** is the TCC TC-7510 ???;)

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 22:25
You are looking at it the wrong way. Even Fiat does a top of the range model, which they badge with a prancing horse.

Beechwoods
27-01-2009, 22:28
:confused:

And I speak English as my first language!

pecosbill76
27-01-2009, 22:36
You are looking at it the wrong way. Even Fiat does a top of the range model, which they badge with a prancing horse.

Ok, but a Ferrari has not the shape of a Fiat, and no vendor sells a Fiat writing " This is the same as Ferrari "

And what about the price ? One Ferrari costs like 20 Fiats
While the seller who sold me the TCC TC-7510 writes on his site "THIS IS THE SAME APPARATUS ALSO SOLD AS BERESFORD TC-7510" and the price is the same...or maybe a little more expensive !!!

It's 23.39 at my home: good night !


Daniele

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 22:38
:confused:

And I speak English as my first language!
Aah. Think out of the box;). Afrikaans and Flemish are not Dutch, but you wouldn't guess that from just overhearing a conversation.

STan

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 22:46
While the seller who sold me the TCC TC-7510 writes on his site ""
That's what happens when you get famous. Everybody wants to stand in your shadow and hope that they too can cash in on your fame.

leo
27-01-2009, 22:48
Think theres only me that understands you Stan;)

purite audio
27-01-2009, 22:56
Danielle Hi, why not just open up the cases and post the photographs of the two dacs.

StanleyB
27-01-2009, 23:10
Think theres only me that understands you Stan;)
I had to laugh when I saw employees of certain well known audio manufacturers order my DAC in the last year or so. I knew that some of them were probably ordering one in order to see what I had done. And low and behold, a couple of them have since released or are rumoured to be releasing their own DAC. But I keep updating mine with tweaks etc., most of which are freely available from me as a technical file that any competent engineer can implement by themselves. No wonder I am such a hate figure on some forums, whilst others rush to the factory to get a similar looking product that they can capitalize on. But they don't provide support, upgrades, or technical bulletins on how to implement upgrades. Nor is there any information available as to which version of the Beresford is comparable to it. They are just resellers living off the fat of the land with a different level of pre and post sales service. So the best advise I can give is that if it doesn't say Beresford, it isn't a Beresford.

Marco
27-01-2009, 23:31
Ciao Daniele,

Non c'e' problema perché io parlo Italiano e adesso mi puo tradurre tutto. I miei parenti vengono da Toscana - una piccola città vicino a Lucca, e conosco bene la sua bella regione :)

Marco.

leo
27-01-2009, 23:48
I had to laugh when I saw employees of certain well known audio manufacturers order my DAC in the last year or so. I knew that some of them were probably ordering one in order to see what I had done. And low and behold, a couple of them have since released or are rumoured to be releasing their own DAC. But I keep updating mine with tweaks etc., most of which are freely available from me as a technical file that any competent engineer can implement by themselves. No wonder I am such a hate figure on some forums, whilst others rush to the factory to get a similar looking product that they can capitalize on. But they don't provide support, upgrades, or technical bulletins on how to implement upgrades. Nor is there any information available as to which version of the Beresford is comparable to it. They are just resellers living off the fat of the land with a different level of pre and post sales service. So the best advise I can give is that if it doesn't say Beresford, it isn't a Beresford.

Be worth keeping the link to this post Stan, for when the same question pops up again:lol:

leo
27-01-2009, 23:51
Danielle Hi, why not just open up the cases and post the photographs of the two dacs.


The thing is, to the untrained eye a picture of the innards for both of those dacs may seem to look the same, the capacitor brands may even look the same.
Very small things like filter values etc which have been tweaked in one unit can make it sound quite different/better

Marco
28-01-2009, 00:01
I could post a picture of my wife's home-made Italian tomato pasta sauce (based on an old secret family recipe) and also one of a tomato pasta sauce from 'Dolmio'. Both would essentially look red with 'bits in', but at the same time taste *entirely* different!!! ;)

Marco.

StanleyB
28-01-2009, 00:36
That reminds me of a set of pictures a modder sent me of a part of a circuit from two identical looking DACs. He couldn't see any differences, until I pointed out some extra PCB tracks and the rotation of certain caps. In the Mod21 sheet I even make mention of the position of two caps that varies from the markings on the PCB. It's surprising how quite a few engineers get confused by this, but only the ones who try to be smart and work out what is going on;).
A typical example was the class A mod from early last year. Some said it wouldn't work, only to then come back and say IT WORKS:scratch:.
I have to mention poor JLAND100 in passing. A month or so ago he sent me an email saying ' I can't hear a difference on the TC-7510+'. Then I asked him to confirm the method of wiring he was using and to change it. A few hours alter came the reply ' BLOODY HELL!! I want one'.

STan

Gazjam
29-01-2009, 14:06
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=35465&forum_id=1&page=1

More anti-B schenagigans from the usual suspects.


Honestly, how many different forums has this guy posted the same thing?? :confused:


U must be doing something right.

Gazjam
29-01-2009, 14:08
That reminds me of a set of pictures a modder sent me of a part of a circuit from two identical looking DACs. He couldn't see any differences, until I pointed out some extra PCB tracks and the rotation of certain caps. In the Mod21 sheet I even make mention of the position of two caps that varies from the markings on the PCB. It's surprising how quite a few engineers get confused by this, but only the ones who try to be smart and work out what is going on;).
A typical example was the class A mod from early last year. Some said it wouldn't work, only to then come back and say IT WORKS:scratch:.
I have to mention poor JLAND100 in passing. A month or so ago he sent me an email saying ' I can't hear a difference on the TC-7510+'. Then I asked him to confirm the method of wiring he was using and to change it. A few hours alter came the reply ' BLOODY HELL!! I want one'.

STan

Out of curiosity Stan, what DAC is Jerry currently using? His old Mark 3?

StanleyB
29-01-2009, 14:33
Out of curiosity Stan, what DAC is Jerry currently using? His old Mark 3?
Best ask him:). He has the MK3 as his regular DAC, but he has also had a TC-7520 to play with since the latter part of last year.

Stan

purite audio
29-01-2009, 14:34
Gaz if you designed the silk screening, couldn't it be said you had rather a vested interest in the product, also Stanley has never denied the product is made by Tekno, I have no problem with that it is his design he can have it made where he likes.

StanleyB
29-01-2009, 15:12
Keith, I have no idea what your problem is with my DAC. Have you got something against my family and me in particular? For your information Technolink is owned by my cousin. I have been designing stuff for more him for than a decade, and he has been building and selling them for years. You are free to bring your solicitor to my place and inspect the electronic drawings and SPICE simulations of all the products I have been working on or are working on. That includes the TC-7510 and TC-7520. I was already an established engineer with many innovative new products and ideas to my name before anyone had heard of the Beresford brand name. And I can call some very respectable UK and Far Eastern companies to testify on my behalf.

So stop running round the various forums accusing me of badge engineering before I take legal action against you.

Stan

purite audio
29-01-2009, 15:29
Stan I actually posted what cracking products tekno make and what excellent value they are, a friend recently sent me one of their phono stages and it was good .
I have no problem with manufacturers having stuff made abroad at all, I just wondered whether a 7510 sold in Germany ( or where ever ) is the same as the Beresford, is that unreasonable? keith.

Gazjam
29-01-2009, 15:40
Gaz if you designed the silk screening, couldn't it be said you had rather a vested interest in the product, also Stanley has never denied the product is made by Tekno, I have no problem with that it is his design he can have it made where he likes.


No, it couldnt be said.

Be careful Keith to whom you throw the shit towards.
Insinuation is a double edged sword and You are getting pretty close to being libelous.

I wasn't paid for my work nor did I wish to be.

I have no professional link to Stan Beresford, nor am I an active promoter of his products.

I, like LOADS of other people, are an extremely happy consumer of his Dac. Thats as far as it goes.



*START RANT*

Leave my name out of it mate. Start that crap with me and I'll be PMing some Mods.

*END RANT*


Best Regards,
Gaz

purite audio
29-01-2009, 16:02
Gary I think you will find that to be libelous a statement has to be untrue, I said you designed the silk screening and you admitted that you did, I just don't think that is going to hold water in court.
I haven't seen your work can you post a photo?

Gazjam
29-01-2009, 16:12
Gary I think you will find that to be libelous a statement has to be untrue, I said you designed the silk screening and you admitted that you did, I just don't think that is going to hold water in court.
I haven't seen your work can you post a photo?

1. You insinuated I have a vested interest in his product.


2. No.

purite audio
29-01-2009, 16:16
Do you wear one under your shirt?
It's a decent dac and very good vfm, lets leave it there. Keith.

Mike
29-01-2009, 16:20
Yes please!... Lets do just that!

trailer
29-01-2009, 16:24
Let's.

Mike
29-01-2009, 16:31
Go and have a cup of tea/coffee lads... :)

I'll reopen the thread a bit later.

Mike
29-01-2009, 17:50
Ok... thread reopened.

Please could I gently remind everyone about not bringing 'arguments' from other forums over here. They are unwelcome and there's just no need for it.

Let's keep things civil and leave any 'mud slinging' or 'axe grinding' out of it. :)

Thanks in advance...

Marco
29-01-2009, 17:54
Indeed. And Keith, this is long overdue - if I see any more 'sly digs' (I'm being polite here) at Stan's DAC you'll be 'on holiday' for a month. I hope that I've made myself clear.

Marco.

Gazjam
29-01-2009, 17:58
Ok... thread reopened.

Please could I gently remind everyone about not bringing 'arguments' from other forums over here. They are unwelcome and there's just no need for it.

Let's keep things civil and leave any 'mud slinging' or 'axe grinding' out of it. :)

Thanks in advance...

Sorry chaps, meant no harm.
A PM would have been more appropriate in hindsight. :doh:

purite audio
29-01-2009, 18:10
I am sorry too Stan ,Gary my sincere apologies ,Keith.

Mike
29-01-2009, 18:11
Thanks guys! :)

Marco
29-01-2009, 18:13
Nice one :)

Back on topic...

Marco.

pecosbill76
29-01-2009, 19:39
Hi !

My brand new Beresford TC-7510 has arrived.

Now it's "warming his muscles" with his new friend NAD C325BEE
:gig:

YoG
29-01-2009, 20:48
It needs a long time to burn in.. i got mine 10 days ago and the sound is still improving, even though i have it playing continously ..!

Bass has finally waken up. Its very detailed now over the whole image. I can definately state it sounds a whole lot better than my Sony cd-player (est. 150 euro)..although it doesnt supply the same amount of dynamics. Maybe that has something to do with my onboard sounddevice. Im planning to buy a cheap one with better engineering, like the Trust SC-5250 (http://www.play.com/PC/PCs/-/669/876/-/3436355/Trust-SC-5250-5-1-Surround-Sound-PCI-Card/Product.html?searchtype=genre#)