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MartinT
26-07-2012, 08:31
I had been using an old 1m Chord ProDAC silver co-ax cable for connecting my Touch to the Bushmaster, but I was reading recently about the beneficial effects of a proper 75 ohm cable and also a recommended minimum length of 1.5m - this was mentioned by Neal (NRG).

So I researched a little and found that Belden 1694A double-shielded low loss video cable is ideal for digital audio duties, and the best near 75 ohm phono plugs are made by Canare. It happens that Blue Jeans Cable make these up at low cost, so I ordered a 1.5m length.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm (http://bluejeanscable.co.uk/store/digital-audio/index.htm)

It arrived in an incredible 3 days from the USA via Fedex, and I tried it out last night. Cold from the pack, with no burn-in time, it made an interesting comparison. Playing some 16/44 and 24/96 tracks from the Touch, I formed the firm impression that music was flowing more easily with a very 'undigital', liquid and musical sound. In fact, just like that, the Touch/Bushmaster combo is sounding very high class in my system and whereas I used to think of it as a secondary source (compared with vinyl and SACD player), I now have to admit that it really holds itself high in such lofty company. Midrange is my fail test for any system, and the way in which k d lang's voice soared without ceiling, while some crash cymbals were playing in the background, really sold it to me.

A highly recommended cable at a very reasonable £12 + VAT.

icehockeyboy
26-07-2012, 10:05
I missed the post about why 1.5 m is the optimum length for a coax, can someone explain please?

I also use a Belden/Canare coax and find it good too!

Stratmangler
26-07-2012, 10:23
So I researched a little and found that Belden 1694A double-shielded low loss video cable is ideal for digital audio duties, and the best near 75 ohm phono plugs are made by Canare. It happens that Blue Jeans Cable make these up at low cost, so I ordered a 1.5m length

Sounds exactly like this http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_3&products_id=3

DSJR
26-07-2012, 10:27
Wasn't 1.5m the MINIMUM recommended length?

icehockeyboy
26-07-2012, 10:33
Wasn't 1.5m the MINIMUM recommended length?

But why?:)

DSJR
26-07-2012, 10:55
I dunno, ask the person who posted it on one of these Bushmaster based threads :)

I use cheap as chips satellite grade double screened cable with cheapo nickel coated Neutrik plugs. Works ok with me and I discovered that for no reason other than to connect soundcard to DAC, it's around 1.5m long............ Most DACs and digi outs are anything but 75 ohms in all honesty, so dont get anal about it :lol:

NRG
26-07-2012, 11:20
1.5m is a sort of recommended minimum length based on the none ideal 75ohm termination of the majority of cables and the resulting signal reflections, longer may be better still. If the Canare RCAs are cheap enough then no reason not to fit them but don't believe you are getting an ideal impedance match as the RCA socket they plug into won't be anywhere near ideal. Beware of marketing foo.

NRG
26-07-2012, 11:33
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

MartinT
26-07-2012, 11:34
Sounds exactly like this http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_3&products_id=3

So it does! The Blue Jeans cable came up first in my search :doh:

MartinT
26-07-2012, 11:36
Thanks for that, Neal, and for the reference. I was certainly prepared to consign my little experiment to the cable box in the garage, so no foo was necessarily believed. However, to my surprise, it works well!

Marco
26-07-2012, 13:09
Martin,

Lol... You're a dafty! If only you'd asked, I'd have given you some Belden 1694A cable for free, as I've currently got two 1m lengths of it lying around, after having upgraded to my Oyaide FTVS510, fitted with silver WBTs (now *that* is a digital cable you should listen to! ;)) Hey ho...

If anyone wants the other two lengths, they can have it for the cost of postage and packing, just pop me a PM :cool:

Neal, interesting article about digital cable lengths. My experiments in the area concur with that, as I can clearly hear the difference between using a 1m length of the Oyaide digital cable, mentioned above, and a 1.25m version, which is sonically superior. Whether I could hear any difference between 1.25 and 1.5m, though, is another matter.

I might give it a go! :)

Marco.

MartinT
26-07-2012, 13:24
Lol... You're a dafty! If only you'd asked

I didn't know to ask! Anyway, as you know, I rather like finding things out for myself, it guarantees that I'm not just going with the flow and fooling myself :)

Yomanze
26-07-2012, 13:57
Martin,

Lol... You're a dafty! If only you'd asked, I'd have given you some Belden 1694A cable for free, as I've currently got two 1m lengths of it lying around, after having upgraded to my Oyaide FTVS510, fitted with silver WBTs (now *that* is a digital cable you should listen to! ;)) Hey ho...

If anyone wants the other two lengths, they can have it for the cost of postage and packing, just pop me a PM :cool:

Neal, interesting article about digital cable lengths. My experiments in the area concur with that, as I can clearly hear the difference between using a 1m length of the Oyaide digital cable, mentioned above, and a 1.25m version, which is sonically superior. Whether I could hear any difference between 1.25 and 1.5m, though, is another matter.

I might give it a go! :)

Marco.

I use 5m cables. :)

Cool, I found the original link on why it's far more desirable to use longer SPDIF cables (he used to sell 16ft cables):

http://web.archive.org/web/20080205113300/http://www.analogresearch-technology.net/ubyte.html

Here's the important bit:

---

"Suppose that undesired signal (let's call it a reflection, because that is what it is) arrives at the decision point. You know, the point in the data stream where the bit is recognised as either a "1" or a "0". While the reflection is always of a small enough level that it will not cause an error (a "1" will always be "1", and a "0" will always be a "0"), it does something really sneaky.

It changes to point it time that the "1" is recognised as a "1", or the "0" is recognised as a "0". And that, our friends, is what is known as jitter. The digital value is correct, but it is off by just a little bit in the time domain."

---

...increasing the length of your SPDIF cable means that the reflections are not appearing within that "decision point" where the receiver would have issues.

brian2957
26-07-2012, 14:05
Martin,

Lol... You're a dafty! If only you'd asked, I'd have given you some Belden 1694A cable for free, as I've currently got two 1m lengths of it lying around, after having upgraded to my Oyaide FTVS510, fitted with silver WBTs (now *that* is a digital cable you should listen to! ;)) Hey ho...

If anyone wants the other two lengths, they can have it for the cost of postage and packing, just pop me a PM :cool:

Neal, interesting article about digital cable lengths. My experiments in the area concur with that, as I can clearly hear the difference between using a 1m length of the Oyaide digital cable, mentioned above, and a 1.25m version, which is sonically superior. Whether I could hear any difference between 1.25 and 1.5m, though, is another matter.

I might give it a go! :)

Marco.
You have PM Marco.

Marco
26-07-2012, 16:26
PM replied to, dude :)

Marco.

brian2957
26-07-2012, 17:04
Cheers Marco.:)

sondale
26-07-2012, 18:43
Martin,

Thanks for bringing this up - I had forgotten all about a cable I made a few years ago based on this: - http://www.enjoythemusic.com/etmcable.htm

I have taken the Touch out of the system so I used my Sony CDP555ESD as a test bed, normally it is connected to the BM using a van den Hul 'The First' cable. I played 'Khmer' by Nils Petter Molvaer, sounded OK, a little muffled - but acceptable.

I changed over to the diy cable (it is 1.5 metres long) - what a difference - some thick velvet drapes had just been removed and the imaging improved.

I used the recommended Canare plugs - I think I will now try the same thing with some Eichmann Bullets.

MartinT
26-07-2012, 18:48
Nice one, Alan. There's nothing better than bringing out some long forgotten item from the garage and finding out how good it is :)

Beware the Eichmans, they may not be very 75 ohm compliant for digital use.

Alp
02-08-2012, 19:40
I have just purchased the a 2m length of the Belden cable from Blue Jeans to try between my BM and SB Touch instead of a 0.75m Van Den Hul First Ultimate cable I have used for years.

I have learned to be skeptical about cables having tried my fair share and often found little improvement or worse.

I have to say first impressions are very impressive for 20 quid - much deeper 3D sound stage, smoother (analogue, silky?) sound and you can hear the decay of notes on stringed and other instruments.

MartinT
02-08-2012, 19:56
Nice one Alastair - it feels good to make an improvement for such a small outlay. The Blue Jeans cable is well made, too.

Alp
02-08-2012, 20:15
Absolutely!

Gie663
07-08-2012, 18:54
I have been using the Bushmaster a couple of weeks, and I'm quite happy with it.
One oddity : when linking the digital coax cable (1 meter) between the cd player (Marantz 63mkII KI) and the Bushmaster I used a cable from Sunshinetronic.
Later on I changed this cable with a more 'everyday model' from Bandridge (also 1m) and the sound ameliorated slightly.
Who can explain that ???
These interlinks only carry digital information, so normally there can't be any differences as to quality ? I checked both cables meticulously, but I couldn't find any corrosion or other faults (they were both new).
And maybe there's still more to gain when bumping into an even better match ??

http://www.ebay.nl/itm/ST-HomeCinema-Audio-Digital-Koaxial-Kabel-HCNYPW-1-m-/280488192996?pt=DE_Computing_Audiokabel_Adapter&hash=item414e662be4

http://www.discountonline.be/bal4801-digital-coax-audio-cable-1m-p-16833.html

Greetz from Flanders - Belgium
Gie

MartinT
07-08-2012, 19:44
These interlinks only carry digital information, so normally there can't be any differences as to quality ?

Hi Gie

This thread alone says that they carry a lot more than just digital information and it has been well discussed elsewhere in the forum. The S/PDIF interface embeds the clock in the data and is very susceptible to noise, jitter, RFI, reflections and other hash which can affect the way the receiving DAC decodes the signal. The proof is in the listening: digital and optical cables sound different and it's worth finding a good one, such as the one I discuss in the opening post.

DSJR
07-08-2012, 21:08
The old CD 63 series in all forms suffered from high levels of jitter I remember - very high indeed by modern standards. Whether the transmission of this can be altered by different wires I really don't know, but I still think the digital waveform as seen by the receiver in the DAC can vary and *possibly* affect things..

brian2957
07-08-2012, 21:32
Hi Gie

This thread alone says that they carry a lot more than just digital information and it has been well discussed elsewhere in the forum. The S/PDIF interface embeds the clock in the data and is very susceptible to noise, jitter, RFI, reflections and other hash which can affect the way the receiving DAC decodes the signal. The proof is in the listening: digital and optical cables sound different and it's worth finding a good one, such as the one I discuss in the opening post.

Interesting and informative post Martin . I have to agree that digital cables do sound different from each other.

maxrob200
13-08-2012, 00:44
I've been using Belden 1694 for a long time and have found it to be exceptionally good. Cable length 1.5m appears to be minimum for good perfromance given the research by some forum listers etc. Quite important to terminate the shield properly when soldering to the connector. May be worthwhile to have a ferrite ring at the sending end for improved RF rejection, but some people have noticed a dampening in dynamics with the rings.

realysm42
13-08-2012, 07:23
Is this 1.5m rule only applicable for coax cables, or does it affect usb cables in the same application?

NRG
13-08-2012, 08:45
I think you mean does it apply to USB cables when used with a USB DAC....Its something I would like to understand as well given the recent reports of USB cables sounding different at Ali's....its something you could experiment with given the low cost of the cables.

Ali Tait
13-08-2012, 09:22
Yes, the differences were obvious, as they were with the coax digi cables. I wonder if the differences are down to the connector more than the cable?

DaveK
13-08-2012, 15:23
Hi Guys,
Just to make a small contribution to this thread, I put a new Mike (Homar) cable between my Xonar Essence ST PCI card and my 24/192 DAC, replacing a MG G1000HD cable (sorry Mark :) ) and I found it noticeably better to my ears. In fact, Mark's G1000HD cable had previously replaced on of Mike's earlier digital cables.
I am a big fan of Mark's cable and have bought several, as Mark can confirm, but to my ears and with my set up, the latest Mike Homar cable is better.
FWIW I have also replaced a pair of cryo-treated pure silver analogue inter-connects, which have been in my system for ages and which I never thought I'd change, with a pair of Mike's cables and again I'm hearing improvements.
Jerry (Covenant) has also tried these same cables (on loan from me) as both analogue and digital i/cs and is similarly impressed. Hopefully he will be along soon to add his more detailed impressions.
If anyone is contemplating buying new digital or analogue cables they could do a lot worse than consider Mike's, IMO - and he's a top guy to deal with, to boot!! :) .
Hope this is of interest and not too far off topic.
Cheers,
Dave.

Tim
13-08-2012, 18:42
Sounds exactly like this http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=40_3&products_id=3
I have this cable and I like it a lot :)

brian2957
13-08-2012, 18:47
+1 :) although mines' was kindly supplied by Marco .

realysm42
13-08-2012, 19:10
Ali mate, was your response to my question?

Just trying to work out if I should try a longer usb cable!

DaveK
13-08-2012, 19:12
I have this cable and I like it a lot :)

Hi Tim,
If I'm getting hold of the wrong end of the stick here then I apologise in advance, OK? In you post quoted above you quoted a post by Chris (Mangler of Strats) and if, between you, you are suggesting that the Mike Homar cable sounds exactly like the linked Mark Grant one I have to tell you both that you are completely wrong.
OTOH, if I've got my knickers all twisted up, just ignore me and I'll go away :lol: .
Cheers,
Dave.

Tim
13-08-2012, 19:23
You have got your NIAT Dave :eyebrows: - all I was saying is that I have the MG co-ax and I think its a good cable and very good value for money. I was not comparing it to anything else.

brian2957
13-08-2012, 19:31
I think you mean does it apply to USB cables when used with a USB DAC....Its something I would like to understand as well given the recent reports of USB cables sounding different at Ali's....its something you could experiment with given the low cost of the cables.

Hi Neal , I was at Alis, the day we tried these USB cables . I have tried many cheaper cables in my system precisely because I could afford to do so. Out of the cheaper ones the Belkin ( orange plugs ) was the best in my system IMO . However some of the cables we used at Ali's weren't quite so affordable . I was using a Wireworld Starlight because it was the best I had heard and could afford . However a member here brought over a Furutech F2 USB cable for me to try and it sounded much better than the Wireworld and it was half the price . We took the Furutech ( app. £60 ) to Alis' and it was bettered by a Tellurium Q USB cable ( £299 ) :eek: . So USB cables do make a difference ( we all heard the same improvements BTW ) but if you want a night and day improvement you may have to spend a little money mate. :)
Edit :I don't understand why one cable should sound different or better than another either , but I can assure you they do. All in the context of mine and Alis' systems and in my honest opinion of course .

realysm42
13-08-2012, 19:44
Hi Neal , I was at Alis, the day we tried these USB cables . I have tried many cheaper cables in my system precisely because I could afford to do so. Out of the cheaper ones the Belkin ( orange plugs ) was the best in my system IMO . However some of the cables we used at Ali's weren't quite so affordable . I was using a Wireworld Starlight because it was the best I had heard and could afford . However a member here brought over a Furutech F2 USB cable for me to try and it sounded much better than the Wireworld and it was half the price . We took the Furutech ( app. £60 ) to Alis' and it was bettered by a Tellurium Q USB cable ( £299 ) :eek: . So USB cables do make a difference ( we all heard the same improvements BTW ) but if you want a night and day improvement you may have to spend a little money mate. :)
Edit :I don't understand why one cable should sound different or better than another either , but I can assure you they do. All in the context of mine and Alis' systems my honest opinion of course .

Just to add to the confusion, I've had an Oyaide 510 coax, that same Tellurium Q usb cable and a £4 Belkin usb as well. Guess which one I've kept? The £4 one as I couldn't for the life of me hear any difference between any of them!

I use them to connect my pc to my M-dac.

I'm not saying they don't make a difference in any systems, but they certainly didn't in mine (and I'm a firm believer in cables having a distinct impact on a sound). So to say they do or don't as a fact could be misleading; personally I'd say give them a shot on demo and see what happens.

Ali, is your dac asynchronous?

brian2957
13-08-2012, 19:56
I can quite believe what you are saying . That's why I always qualify my findings by stating that they are made in the context of my system or a particular system I was listening to on the day . I firmly believe synergy plays a big part in all of this.
I was using a V-Link 2 if that's of any help.

realysm42
13-08-2012, 20:12
I can quite believe what you are saying . That's why I always qualify my findings by stating that they are made in the context of my system or a particular system I was listening to on the day . I firmly believe synergy plays a big part in all of this.
I was using a V-Link 2 if that's of any help.

Cool, I asked John Westlake what he thought of them (with regards to the dac he designed and I use) and he didn't recommend it; I can't remember what he said but it wsa something about it just being of no benefit to the way my dacs been built.

I've heard good things about them for those it benefits though.

By complete coincidence, here is someone asking the same thing:



Originally Posted by diablue
General question or question for John, ive noticed the mentioned product from Musical Fidelity V-LINK 192, which is a USB to SPDIFconvertor and accepts 192/24 via USB (xmos tech), as I am using the Squeeze Touch with the Triode app which makes it possible to use the USB connection of the Touch as async dig out.

Do you think the Musical Fidelity V-LINK 192 is a valuable add to the M-DAC?

Thx in advance for the service!




The V-LINK will not be true "Async" USB when connected to the MDAC via SPDIF as the USB controller will not be "Clocked" from the MDAC's Master Clock - which is the reason for Async USB operation...

We will release a Async 192kHz adaptor as a stand-alone unit or as part of the MTRN sometime after Christmas.

John

Sorry, back on topic now, I promise.

MCRU
13-08-2012, 20:37
I didn't know to ask! Anyway, as you know, I rather like finding things out for myself, it guarantees that I'm not just going with the flow and fooling myself :)

One of the most sensible comments I have yet read on this forum. :)

StanleyB
13-08-2012, 20:42
The V-LINK will not be true "Async" USB when connected to the MDAC via SPDIF as the USB controller will not be "Clocked" from the MDAC's Master Clock - which is the reason for Async USB operation...
I mentioned in one of the threads that these async USB to SPDIF converters are a waste of money as far as async supposed benefits are concerned. For the async theory to work the async USB chip output has to be I2S. An adaptive USB to SPDIF adapter will produce the same degree of stable and accurate output as a async version.
But don't let the technical facts stand in the way of the commercial push by the async brigade :).