Upgraded wall sockets [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Marco

26-07-2012, 09:09

Tarzan

26-07-2012, 09:35

:popcorn:

Marco

26-07-2012, 09:36

Lol, why the popcorn, Andy?

Marco.

Beobloke

26-07-2012, 09:59

Well, I can't speak for Andy, but possibly because he has the same thoughts as me, namely that the resistance of the length of mains cable itself is likely to be greater than 5.1mOhm - it certainly will be once you take into consideration fuse contacts and the equipment connector pins at the other end of the cable. Therefore the measurements they show are pretty, but meaningless.

Also, their measurement is on the earth pin - no current flows through this and if the equipment is double insulated, it's not even connected!

To Martin, if you're worried about your mains then invest in a decent mains regenerator unit (NOT filter) to plug your amplifier into. This will make a far bigger difference than faffing around with your wall sockets!

Marco

26-07-2012, 10:15

...yes, but it'll also be a damned sight more expensive! ;)

Regarding your point about the measurements, sure, however, I've heard the difference that lowering resistance makes anywhere in the mains supply chain, including the removal and/or upgrading of plugs and sockets, and while the sonic improvement is undoubtedly subtle, in comparison with that obtained by employing the use of a mains regenerator, IMO, it's worthwhile. All these little improvements add up, and so the benefits are cumulative!

Martin, after all, will only have to do this once, and he'll then have the base he needs (decent sockets) from which to embark on a major upgrade of his mains set-up, and in the meantime obtain a nice sonic improvement from a relatively inexpensive little tweak, which I suspect was the whole purpose of him posting this thread :)

Marco.

realysm42

26-07-2012, 10:31

Cheers Marco, some interesting food for thought; I'll report back when I've made some changes.

Ps. Thanks for advising I take my PC and monitor out of the power loop of my stereo; the detail it resolves is impressive having gone back through some tunes I've not listened to for a long time, lots more from nowhere!

Marco

26-07-2012, 10:39

No worries, dude - glad it worked! :)

Marco.

DaveK

26-07-2012, 11:01

FWIW I suspect that any benefit you might gain from changing the wall socket for a silver plated upgrade one might not be audible if the rest of your kit isn't up to taking advantage of it. I have replaced a normal MK wall socket for a silver plated (unswitched) one and could not hear any benefits.
In mitigation I would say that my ears are not in 'as new' condition, my kit is not top of any range and a Belkin PF40 is plugged into the wall socket and everything is fed from that.
On the other hand this has not stopped me from hearing changes brought about by changing i/cs or valves or op-amps - you pays your money and .... :) .
Dave.

Marco

26-07-2012, 11:05

Beobloke

26-07-2012, 12:02

Indeed, Dave. As they say: 'suck it and see'!

I've always been one for assessing anything in audio from a position of practical experience, rather than cynically dismissing the efficacy of something, based on mere technical theory ;)

Marco.

Believe me, Marco, I've done the practical experience bit too. The only outcome was losing days of my life that I'll never get back!

Marco

26-07-2012, 12:08

Well, Adam, in terms of the sonic value gained from upgrading plugs and sockets, our experiences are very different. Therefore, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, and allow others who haven't had that experience the opportunity to make their own discoveries, and thus from that, form their own conclusions :)

Marco.

prestonchipfryer

26-07-2012, 12:48

Marco

26-07-2012, 12:53

Hi John,

Nice one! :)

I have just fitted one of these, my power amp is remote from the pre and is plugged into this. It's too early to say if there is a night and day difference

There will never be 'night & day' differences with that kind of stuff; merely, in my experience, subtle but worthwhile improvements gained, which at the end of the day all add up to making us enjoy listening to our favourite music more!

Marco.

prestonchipfryer

26-07-2012, 12:58

:cool:

Marco

26-07-2012, 13:40

Incidentally, in response to 'Daniel Quinn's' comment on RD's site, here:

http://hifisubjectivist.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44759&p=54343#p54343

Why on earth this clown doesn't have the balls to challenge me here, as he's a member, rather than running off to another forum, like a girl, to 'laugh' there, I don't know! ;)

I don't give a flying fuck if measuring the earth pin mains socket resistance is 'completely meaningless from a hi-fi sound perspective' - that wasn't my point, and simply what you get when jumping in to sneer at and pooh-pooh somone's observations, without first having a proper understanding of the point being made!!! :doh:

My point was that when my electrician and I measured the overall impedance of the dedicated mains spur, powering my hi-fi system (by whatever method was used), the reading clearly reduced by a notable degree, every time a wall socket or mains plug was removed from the chain (as I have most of my system hard-wired to the incoming mains supply, with minimal use of plugs and sockets), and sonically both of us heard a distinct improvement, during the process, as the system was assembled and on 'stand by', ready to be powered up temporarily, in order to subjectively assess, sonically, any measured differences.

Don't quote me, but I *think* the device that the electrician used was one of these: http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Test_Meters_Index/Test_Meters_6/index.html but then, I could be wrong. However, whatever device he used, the corollary was that there existed a demonstrable and repeatable difference between a lower measured reading, and the improvement we both heard, sonically, when switching back and listening to music on the system.

Therefore, IMO, the same result should be possible, although perhaps to a lesser degree, if one upgrades sockets to ones which have less contact resistance, since reducing resistance in the mains supply is precisely why we hear subsequent sonic improvements.

Now, whether or not the Missing Link sockets concerned actually achieve the claimed lower contact resistance or not is of course debatable (and I only posted pictures of the readouts to demonstrate a point from the perspective I've mentioned), but something which I thought the OP could try for not much money - certainly less than he was originally proposing, by using sockets from Furutech!

I trust that for the benefit of Danny-boy and others, on RD's site, I've now explained myself more clearly, so as they say in Glasgow: 'get it RIGHT up ye, ya bams!' :ner: :ner: :finger: :finger:

Marco.

MartinT

26-07-2012, 13:56

the best sound-per-pound option is The Missing Link EPS-100 Ultrapure Silver plated (un-switched) wall sockets, shown here:

http://www.the-missing-link.net/new_page_1.htm

The first thing I did when I moved into my house was to replace the main double socket feeding my system to an MK unswitched. I've now ordered an EPS-100 on the basis that my regenerator (perversely) responds very well to mains supply improvements. I also have a boa constrictor of a Furukawa mains cable (2.6mm cores) coming from Mark Grant to connect the two together :eek:

AlanS

26-07-2012, 14:13

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-wall-sockets/201-silver-plated-audio-grade-wall-socket.html

I have just fitted one of these, my power amp is remote from the pre and is plugged into this. It's too early to say if there is a night and day difference but I would say, so far, that the soundstage has opened up a tad.

Of course when fitting it gave me the chance to inspect the mains wiring leading to the socket. Trimmed it back to reveal fresh, shiny copper wire and deoxited it. So that must help as well.

DO NOT WORK WITH MAINS ELECTRIC IF UNSURE. IT CAN KILL.

How can anyone ascribe what proportion of improvement/difference is due to the cleaner cable or the socket itself. Certainly oxidised cable will introduce resistance. Pitty we cannot do a before and after with mains changes. Here's the new and revert back to before to compare.

I've given up bothering with mains stuff unless things are faulty or dire

MikeMusic

26-07-2012, 14:19

The first thing I did when I moved into my house was to replace the main double socket feeding my system to an MK unswitched. I've now ordered an EPS-100 on the basis that my regenerator (perversely) responds very well to mains supply improvements. I also have a boa constrictor of a Furukawa mains cable (2.6mm cores) coming from Mark Grant to connect the two together :eek:
I wonder what could be done with the cable before that.
Our mains comes in overhead, which is apparently not good from a sparky point of view and Paul thought there might be an improvement by having x something, sorry can't remember, but as we have overhead cables we can't have it.
There were dramatic jumps when he improved what I thought was already a good earth, twice and then put in a slightly chunkier circuit breaker.
Cable is standard twin and earth so far as I know.
Has anyone gone behind the sockets and have a report ?

AlanS

26-07-2012, 14:28

My point was that when my electrician and I measured the overall impedance of the dedicated mains spur, powering my hi-fi system (by whatever method he used), the reading clearly reduced by a notable degree, every time a socket was removed from the chain (as I have most of my supply hard-wired), and sonically both of us heard an improvement, during the process.

Therefore, IMO, the same result should be possible, although perhaps to a lesser degree, if one upgrades sockets to ones which have less contact resistance, since reducing resistance in the mains supply is precisely why we hear subsequent sonic improvements.

Marco.

It would have been great if you had noted/recorded the figures measured by your man as the improvements happened. Certainly the Missing Link sockets resistance figure are soo small - like saying a sound level difference in dB of 0.005 is readily heard.

Glad you got a benefit for your efforts/expense

DSJR

26-07-2012, 14:29

Just getting a qualified electrician to check the tightness of all the wire fixings from meter to plugs (ring mains especially) would probably make as much difference as fancy sockets and of course, not all good gear is sensitive to mains issues anyway.

Marco

26-07-2012, 14:59

Hi Alan,

Pitty we cannot do a before and after with mains changes. Here's the new and revert back to before to compare.

As I outlined earlier, if you're keen enough and have an understanding electrician, it's quite easy to demonstrate improvements in "mains changes", as one goes along implementing them!

Also, a very quick and easy A/B comparison I can carry out at home, is connecting and disconnecting the dedicated earth for my system (fed from a serious of earth rods in my garden), as music is playing, and noting the easily discernible degradation in sound quality, whenever the dedicated earth is disconnected (with the system temporarily reduced to using the standard house earth), and the subsequent similarly easily discernible improvement, when the dedicated earth is put back in...

It's always reassuring when you can actually prove that you're not imagining things! ;)

Marco.

Marco

26-07-2012, 15:05

Hi Dave,

Just getting a qualified electrician to check the tightness of all the wire fixings from meter to plugs (ring mains especially) would probably make as much difference as fancy sockets...

Perhaps, however it would certainly be a nice free tweak!

...and of course, not all good gear is sensitive to mains issues anyway.

I disagree. ALL audio equipment, no matter how well it's been designed, should benefit from being fed by a mains supply, the measured resistance of which, has been genuinely lowered by a significant degree.

Some of the sonic improvements others and I have heard when tweaking equipment, in that respect, have superseded that gained sometimes by upgrading to the use of a much more expensive amplifier! :eek:

Marco.

prestonchipfryer

26-07-2012, 15:15

Also, a very quick and easy A/B comparison I can carry out at home is connecting and disconnecting the dedicated earth for my system (fed from a serious of earth rods in my garden), as music is playing, and noting the easily discernible degradation in sound quality, whenever the dedicated earth is disconnected, and the subsequent similarly easily discernible improvement, when said earth is put back in... ;)

Marco.

Have to say had similar experience. Even with my modest equipment the use of a really good earth is essential. The degradation in sound quality is obvious when the connection to my earth rod is disconnected, resulting in a quite bloated bass response and increased grain.

Marco

26-07-2012, 15:17

The degradation in sound quality is obvious when the connection to my earth rod is disconnected, resulting in a quite bloated bass response and increased grain.

Yup, that's *exactly* the effect you get! :)

Marco.

Barry

26-07-2012, 15:56

Hi Martin,

Yes, the Furutech sockets work and provide a notable sonic improvement, but they're really just for adding the 'icing to the cake', as it were, once every other aspect of your mains set-up has been sorted, therefore to be honest, your money would be much better spent on something else, like this if it's still available for sale:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=341797#post341797

Later, you could then upgrade the sockets for Furutech ones, as I have on my Mark Grant mains block. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the sockets on your current block are fixed?

If you really want to fiddle with wall sockets, then in my experience, the best sound-per-pound option is The Missing Link EPS-100 Ultrapure Silver plated (un-switched) wall sockets, shown here:

http://www.the-missing-link.net/new_page_1.htm

If you scroll down, you'll see some measurable proof of their sockets having considerably lower resistance than bog standard generic sockets from B&Q, or whatever, and even supposedly high-quality ones from MK! On the left is the measurement from the Missing Link socket, and on the right, one from from MK:

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2320/wallsockets2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/wallsockets2.jpg/) http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/179/wallsockets.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/wallsockets.jpg/)

I've carried out those sorts of measurements before, with my friendly electrician, when we were optimising my mains set-up, and trust me you can hear the sonic improvements of lowered resistance!

Right down at the bottom of the page are prices, which I consider are very reasonable (considerably less than the Furutech stuff). I would also go for the matching 13A plugs, which are likely to be a good physical fit with the partnering wall sockets.

Try that, and you'll be a happy bunny! :exactly:

Marco.

Oh dear - are we being swayed by measurements? I'm afraid to say that whilst to a novice those measurements might look persuasive, they are somewhat bogus.

The manufacturer has correctly used a milli-ohmeter using a four-wire method (to remove the effect of the resistance of the measuring leads themselves), where the wires at the measurement end are fitted with Kelvin clips. Unfortunately, to measure the contact resistance, he has simply pushed one Kelvin clip into the socket for the earth pin and the second (one supposes) pushed into the screw terminal on the back of the socket. The wall socket is designed to have the mains wiring terminals screwed tightly, and the earth pin will have a larger contact surface area than the Kelvin clips.

Kelvin clips are a bit like crocodile clips, except each 'jaw' is connected separately, contact is made when the jaws grip the device whose resistance is to be measured. To do the job properly, the manufacture should have used a 13A plug plugged into the socket, connected one of the Kelvin clips to the screw fitting of the pin and the second clip to a very short piece of wire fitted to the back of wall socket.

Even then his measurements could be subject to scrutiny. A simple one-off measurement of a low resistance value is usually insufficient. It is quite possible that the measurements could have been repeated with the opposite results. One should quote the mean value and spread over a series of measurements. Given the sloppiness of his measurement technique, a difference of 4 mOhm is not statistically relevant and has little meaning.

It doesn't matter that the earth connection has been measured, my criticism would equally apply to the live and neutral connections. If anything, the earth pin has a larger contact surface area than either the L and N, so the figures could be optimistic.

However the important measurement to be made is that of the mains source impedance at the wall socket. To measure the source impedance, one needs to measure the voltage drop of the mains under (a known) load. To do this is relatively straightforward, but unless you know exactly what you are doing, there is risk of electric shock. You cannot simply push the probes of an Ohmmeter into the L and N connections of the wall socket - you will destroy the meter, possibly causing it to explode.

I have made such measurements on the wall socket suppling my system and measured a source impedance of 0.2 Ohm. The N - E loop resistance is also < 0.2 Ohm with an open circuit 'float' of 0.25V (AC), 0V (DC). The mains voltage itself is 242V -243V with a DC offset of -18mV. These are good readings, well within requirement.

Incidently the source impedance measured at one of the sockets of a Belkin PF40 mains conditioner was worse: 0.33 Ohm.

I don't believe you need to use fancy mains sockets. I will accept that removing the switch can help, but provided the screw terminals are tight and the pins of the 13A plug are not heavily tarnished, there is no need to use connectors with exotic plating.

Marco

26-07-2012, 16:17

Hi Barry,

Thanks for the clarification, which is noted. You should, however, read my post #16, as it better outlines the point I was making earlier :)

Marco.

YNWaN

26-07-2012, 17:04

I must say that I am deeply skeptical as to the sonic advantage of 'hi-Fi' mains sockets.

realysm42

26-07-2012, 17:13

I must say that I am deeply skeptical as to the sonic advantage of 'hi-Fi' mains sockets.

Have you any experience of them?

MartinT

26-07-2012, 17:29

realysm42

26-07-2012, 17:34

Yeah I can vouch for de-oxiting everything, big difference there, especially with the gold stuff afterwards.

YNWaN

26-07-2012, 18:17

Have you any experience of them?

Some - and associated plugs (my scepticism stretches to those too).

Personally, just I use Crabtree (though I have also used MK which are just as good) unswitched sockets wired with heavy gauge cable to the fuse box (when I moved into my current house there was, (somewhat bizarrely) an electric shower fitted in the room in which my hi-fi now resides - so, rather conveniently, the cable was already in place :)).

In my previous house I had a similar mains layout and also had an earth arrangement like that described by Marco. I must admit, I am tempted to duplicate the earth in my current house (not instead of the house earth - as well as). The only issue is that my old listening room was on the ground floor and my current one is on the third floor.

Darren

26-07-2012, 18:40

A bizarre room on the third floor of your house with a shower in it.......... It wasn't the.. um.. bathroom was it? :)
Notice anything else in there? A sink? A loo? Tiles an' stuff?

Marco

26-07-2012, 18:46

Gentlemen - all your music is effectively modulated power supply, which comes from the mains. Everything to do with power is critical and the more attention you pay to it the more the rewards. People with enormous understanding of power supplies, like Paul Hynes, make a living from selling you better quality power.

The argument that 'any properly designed power supply shouldn't let anything through' is bogus. It's all about pushing the noise floor down and removing distortion elements from the power rails. One of my most sensitive components to mains quality, and the one which responds the most to my regenerator, is my Chord power amp. It has a switched-mode power supply! One which reconstitutes smoothed DC from high frequencies.

So give your mains and power arrangements some attention. You will be surprised at how much goodness comes from small tweaks. Start with a can of Deoxit and spray the pins on all your mains plugs and IEC connectors. You'll be surprised.

Hear, hear! :clap:

An interesting thing is that every time Barry visits me (as he's just done recently), he comments that my system sounds the best that he's ever heard it, and given that the bulk of my system components have remained the same since I first met him (some years ago), what he's largely hearing, completely without prompting or bias, is the results of my mains and cable tweakery and/or tube-rolling, in the interim between his various visits!

Now if that isn't proof that I'm making genuine progress, in terms of increasing my system's performance, with these things that supposedly don't work, or the effects of which are 'imagined', then I don't know what is ;)

Marco.

YNWaN

26-07-2012, 18:47

It wasn't the.. um.. bathroom was it? :)

No......obviously

YNWaN

26-07-2012, 18:51

Now if that isn't proof that I'm making genuine progress, in terms of increasing my system's performance, with these things that supposedly don't work, or the effects of which are 'imagined', then I don't know what is ;)

Erm, but I'm sure you don't need me to point out that that isn't any form of 'proof'; of anything. On second thoughts, it may be proof that Barry is a nice chap and a good guest.

Marco

26-07-2012, 18:52

In my previous house I had a similar mains layout and also had an earth arrangement like that described by Marco. I must admit, I am tempted to duplicate the earth in my current house (not instead of the house earth - as well as).

You should do it, Mark, as it works! I know of a top-notch sparky, who would come and do the job very cheaply for you, as he's a friend of mine :)

Marco.

Marco

26-07-2012, 18:56

Erm, but I'm sure you don't need me to point out that that isn't any form of 'proof'; of anything. On second thoughts, it may be proof that Barry is a nice chap and a good guest.

Haha, lol. He is indeed, but you obviously don't know Barry :eyebrows:

Like me, he doesn't flatter or bullshit, simply to court favour. He's a 'tell is as he hears it', good or bad, sort of chap, not a sycophant. If he didn't genuinely think that there was any improvement since he last heard my system, trust me, he wouldn't have said anything!

Anyway, he'll no doubt speak for himself when he reads this.

Marco.

Ali Tait

26-07-2012, 19:26

I've said it before, but it bears repeating I think, be careful about installing another earth. Under certain conditions if the earth is of lower impedance than that at your local supply point, it could pass huge amounts of current if there was a fault on the cable supplying your street, possibly many thousands of amps.

Daniel Quinn

26-07-2012, 19:29

Aural memory is rubbish . your brain can talk to itself in words but it can not reproduce remembered sounds .

there is no way a person listening to a hi-fi, at lets say once a month ,for a couple of hours could make any meaningful comment upon such small changes from month to month and its a nonsense to say they could . they may think it sounds better such comments would be essentially bollocks .;)

YNWaN

26-07-2012, 19:44

You should do it, Mark, as it works! I know of a top-notch sparky, who would come and do the job very cheaply for you, as he's a friend of mine :)

Marco.

Yes, I should - though I could quite easily do it myself - did it at my last house.

Haha, lol. He is indeed, but you obviously don't know Barry :eyebrows:

No, you are quite right, I don't know him; in fact, I haven't a clue who you are talking about.

I was being 'generous' - it's good for ones Karma apparently ;).

Marco

26-07-2012, 19:51

Marco

26-07-2012, 19:53

Yes, I should - though I could quite easily do it myself - did it at my last house

Ah, even better. Well, should you decide to do it, I've got a load of earth wire you can have, gratis. Just give us a shout :)

Marco.

YNWaN

26-07-2012, 19:58

Aural memory isn't inherently rubbish - though yours may well be Daniel. All qualities of perception vary between individuals - some have good memories, some have poor, this doesn't mean that memory is inherently 'rubbish'.

Marco

26-07-2012, 20:00

No, you are quite right, I don't know him; in fact, I haven't a clue who you are talking about.

Lol - surely you jest?? The OP of post #26 on this thread, holder of 5000+ posts on this forum, and one of our most valued and regular members...

You ARE defo a proper daftee! :D

;)

Marco.

YNWaN

26-07-2012, 20:00

Ah, even better. Well, should you decide to do it, I've got a load of earth wire you can have, gratis. Just give us a shout :)

Marco.

Cheers, very kind. To be honest, I think what's putting me off is crawling through the roof space that would be required.

AlanS

26-07-2012, 20:04

YNWaN

26-07-2012, 20:05

Lol - surely you jest?? The OP of post #26 on this thread, holder of 5000+ posts on this forum, and one of our most valued and regular members...

You ARE defo a proper daftee! :D

;)

Marco.

Sorry, no, I wasn't joking. I suspect I don't pay as much attention to such things as you think I do.

Barry

26-07-2012, 20:26

Haha, lol. He is indeed, but you obviously don't know Barry :eyebrows:

Like me, he doesn't flatter or bullshit, simply to court favour. He's a 'tell is as he hears it', good or bad, sort of chap, not a sycophant. If he didn't genuinely think that there was any improvement since he last heard my system, trust me, he wouldn't have said anything!

Anyway, he'll no doubt speak for himself when he reads this.

Marco.

Thanks for the complement Marco. Clearly I cannot do a 'before and after' comparison with the changes you have made to your system. All I can say is I now enjoy listening to your system (which is quite different to mine: we have a different agenda) more than I did on first audition.

Although you have had your Copper amp uprated in terms of power output, some of the improvement I heard must be due to upgrading the mains side of things: nothing else has changed. I found the system more comfortable to listen to and to relax to. The word "comfortable" is not to be taken as a term of opprobium, it is a compliment. If I can't relax to a system, I can't enjoy it.

And enjoy it I did - we were up until nearly 2:00 in the morning listening to it!

Tarzan

26-07-2012, 20:35

Lol, why the popcorn, Andy?

Marco.

Mmmmmm popcorn.

Marco

26-07-2012, 20:47

Thanks for the complement Marco. Clearly I cannot do a 'before and after' comparison with the changes you have made to your system. All I can say is I now enjoy listening to your system (which is quite different to mine: we have a different agenda) more than I did on first audition.

Although you have had your Copper amp uprated in terms of power output, some of the improvement I heard must be due to upgrading the mains side of things: nothing else has changed. I found the system more comfortable to listen to and to relax to. The word "comfortable" is not to be taken as a term of opprobium, it is a compliment. If I can't relax to a system, I can't enjoy it.

And enjoy it I did - we were up until nearly 2:00 in the morning listening to it!

Who are you?? :scratch:

Only kidding - see Mark's post!

Marco.

P.S Thanks for your comments, mate. I was pleased to add someone else to the Sean Rowe fan base... Wonder if he also likes Tournedos Rossini? ;)

Stratmangler

26-07-2012, 23:41

You should do it, Mark, as it works! I know of a top-notch sparky, who would come and do the job very cheaply for you, as he's a friend of mine :)

Marco.

The petrol/diesel to fuel the car, however, doesn't come cheaply - I'm not being funny here Marco, but the cost of getting from A to B has become a factor now that gets priced into every job I do, as is probably the case with every other tradesman that I know.

From yours to Sheffield and back is 180 miles or so, and a good 4-5 hour round trip with light traffic.

Stratmangler

26-07-2012, 23:48

prestonchipfryer

27-07-2012, 05:41

YNWaN

27-07-2012, 07:50

From yours to Sheffield and back is 180 miles or so, and a good 4-5 hour round trip with light traffic.

Yes, it's not exactly round the corner.

AlanS

27-07-2012, 09:04

Don't talk such bollocks, your brain may not have the acuity to have developed aural remembrance - but I'm sure that many listeners have such a keenness.

:)

I am confused by your post. You accept we don't have aural remembrance (detailed recall) yet by some unstated means you are sure people have what you call now a keeness.

Consider from this post - Marco was adamant that Barry was making a keen assessment of Marcos system over a period of time, thus provding validation to Marcos belief that his tweaking efforts had brought a noticable improvement. Barry wasn't noticing in the degree of detail that Marco was. Which undermines both Marcos and your beliefs.

I believe it is known as projection. One ascribes onto others what you think and want to be true.

For what it is worth I see no grounds for your belief and it does not correspond to my observations. If you have any accepted study otherwise I will glad change my view.

Marco

27-07-2012, 09:12

The petrol/diesel to fuel the car, however, doesn't come cheaply - I'm not being funny here Marco, but the cost of getting from A to B has become a factor now that gets priced into every job I do, as is probably the case with every other tradesman that I know.

From yours to Sheffield and back is 180 miles or so, and a good 4-5 hour round trip with light traffic.

A valid point, Chris, but I'd willingly pay the fuel costs, as it'd simply be a 'jolly jape' for me, for the day visiting Mark and engaging in some shenanigans! The sparky is a mate of mine - a very experienced electrician who works for Wrexham council (and someone who also likes hi-fi), so he'd be doing it as favour for me, and would only charge Mark a token fee, most likely the cost of materials and few cups of tea! ;)

Anyway, the offer is there should Mark decide to accept it :cool:

Marco.

MikeMusic

27-07-2012, 09:27

A valid point, Chris, but I'd willingly pay the fuel costs, as it'd be a 'jolly jape' for me, for the day visiting Mark and engaging in some shenanigans! The sparky is a mate of mine - a very experienced electrician who works for Wrexham council (and someone who also likes hi-fi), so he'd be doing it as favour for me, and would only charge Mark a token fee, most likely the cost of materials and few cups of tea! ;)

Anyway, the offer is there should Mark decide to accept it :cool:
Marco.

Only a mere 12 miles further is Chobham
Be very happy to accommodate you and a sparky for the weekend !

Marco

27-07-2012, 09:29

Hi Alan,

Consider from this post - Marco was adamant that Barry was making a keen assessment of Marcos system over a period of time, thus provding validation to Marcos belief that his tweaking efforts had brought a noticable improvement. Barry wasn't noticing in the degree of detail that Marco was. Which undermines both Marcos and your beliefs.

Not at all. Marco was simply making an observation, which although by no means definitive, was in some ways valid, as indeed Barry agreed with when he commented.

Quite often I'll visit friends, whose systems I know rather well, and will comment on the effect of their system tweaking in the interim between visits, if indeed any has been done. It's just a bit of fun, but also an acknowledgement if to my ears genuine progress has been made, or not, and they'll do the same when visiting me. It acts simply as a little reality check.

As such, no-one's beliefs have been 'undermined'. I know what I hear, have absolute confidence in that, and indeed, as I outlined when describing the effect of connecting and disconnecting the dedicated earth for my system, I can demonstrate it easily, too! :)

Marco.

Marco

27-07-2012, 09:32

Hi Mike,

Only a mere 12 miles further is Chobham
Be very happy to accommodate you and a sparky for the weekend !

Where's Chobham? I thought you lived in Surrey? Sheffield is 'oop Norf' :scratch:

Marco.

MikeMusic

27-07-2012, 09:36

Hi Mike,

Where's Chobham? I thought you lived in Surrey? Sheffield is 'oop Norf' :scratch:

Marco.
12 miles further (in a slightly different direction)
Better weather in Surrey too
:)

Just thought I wonder if you and your sparky could look over Martin on Saturday and nip up to us after .........

prestonchipfryer

27-07-2012, 09:48

I am confused by your post. You accept we don't have aural remembrance (detailed recall) yet by some unstated means you are sure people have what you call now a keeness.

Consider from this post - Marco was adamant that Barry was making a keen assessment of Marcos system over a period of time, thus provding validation to Marcos belief that his tweaking efforts had brought a noticable improvement. Barry wasn't noticing in the degree of detail that Marco was. Which undermines both Marcos and your beliefs.

I believe it is known as projection. One ascribes onto others what you think and want to be true.

For what it is worth I see no grounds for your belief and it does not correspond to my observations. If you have any accepted study otherwise I will glad change my view.

Where have I stated that we don't have aural memory? If you read my post you should understand that I am saying we do have aural memory, or otherwise how would we remember someone's voice, or a tune, etc.

Marco

27-07-2012, 09:55

MikeMusic

27-07-2012, 10:00

Lol... Sure I said that I'd be busy until after my holidays? If Mark's up for this it'll have to be at a time which is convenient for him, and also the sparky and me.

As far as I'm concerned, that won't be until at least September :)

Marco.
Yep. "After holidays" was the arrangement.
Martin may be happy with his electrics of course, being way more technically adept than me.
A sparky who is into hifi has to be a real rarity

YNWaN

27-07-2012, 10:00

A valid point, Chris, but I'd willingly pay the fuel costs, as it'd be a 'jolly jape' for me, for the day visiting Mark and engaging in some shenanigans! The sparky is a mate of mine - a very experienced electrician who works for Wrexham council (and someone who also likes hi-fi), so he'd be doing it as favour for me, and would only charge Mark a token fee, most likely the cost of materials and few cups of tea! ;)

Anyway, the offer is there should Mark decide to accept it :cool:

Marco.

Oh blimey - very generous indeed (exceedingly so) - will have a think regarding best solution and look at cost of earth spikes :).

Marco

27-07-2012, 10:04

Nice one, dude. Should be a fun little wheeze! :cool:

Marco.

MikeMusic

27-07-2012, 10:05

Oh blimey - very generous indeed (exceedingly so) - will have a think regarding best solution and look at cost of earth spikes :).
I imagine the bigger the better.
Possibly much bigger than would be advised for a 'normal' household :)

Marco

27-07-2012, 10:11

Yep. "After holidays" was the arrangement.
Martin may be happy with his electrics of course, being way more technically adept than me.
A sparky who is into hifi has to be a real rarity

We'll see what we can do, matey. Matt (the Sparky) isn't so much into hi-fi himself, but is always interested in the shenanigans others and I get up to, especially when it comes to the mains. He thinks we're all mad, but loves helping out and hearing (and measuring) the results achieved in people's systems.

He installed my mains set-up and also travelled down to Stafford (from Wrexham) to install Steve Toy's, if you know him. He used to be admin here and now posts on pfm, along with on his own site, Audio Future :)

Marco.

AlanS

27-07-2012, 10:30

Where have I stated that we don't have aural memory? If you read my post you should understand that I am saying we do have aural memory, or otherwise how would we remember someone's voice, or a tune, etc.

You are quite right I misread your insult "your brain" as a generalisation not just bollocksing Daniel.

Don't talk such bollocks, your brain may not have the acuity to have developed aural remembrance - but I'm sure that many listeners have such a keenness.

Let me put it differently I don't think we remember sounds in sufficent detail to do a before and after assessment over a period of say a month or more. It is hard to test for of course. Remembering visual and aural experience is different. I bet you cannot remember the voice of a person you met briefy, casually 2 months ago unless they had some distinctive character (like a laugh).

Sorry I cannot share your view that 6 month system change reports based on aural memory of a system 6 months ago are credible. Then again I dont hear what others eventually admit to being subtle differences like those from mains plugs and cables. They look confidence building though - big strong chunky must do something. Or perhaps I'm lucky compare to the mains problem fixers, havIng a sub station 2 buildings away.

Must do a thread "if you have mains problems that plugs/cables/ dedicated supplies fix how close are you to your supply point and what non domestic electricity users are near you."

YNWaN

27-07-2012, 10:35

In my old house the hi-fi was in the front room and I simply hammered a long length of copper pipe into the front garden - drilled a hole through the wall and ran a length of earth cable from the copper pipe to the earth pin in a 13A plug, which was plugged into a spare socket. The mains earth bond was not disconnected or anything like that.

These days I see that you can buy proper earth spikes from B&Q.

The problem with my current setup is that the hi-fi is now on the third floor and the earth cable would have to run up the outside wall (at the back of the house) - does a special 'armoured' cable have to be used for external use?

Also, I don't have a spare socket for the cable to be plugged in to and I'm not sure how best to resolve that - any ideas? There is a convenient place where three earth spikes could be placed though.

MartinT

27-07-2012, 10:35

Quite often I'll visit friends, whose systems I know rather well, and will comment on the effect of their system tweaking in the interim between visits, if indeed any has been done.

I can attest to that, and you've usually got a handle on what's changed with some accuracy. We can all do that for systems that we know and enjoy listening to.

MartinT

27-07-2012, 10:37

I imagine the bigger the better.
Possibly much bigger than would be advised for a 'normal' household :)

A single 1m copper earth spike in my case.

prestonchipfryer

27-07-2012, 10:39

:) Well probably I would recognise a person's voice after a month or so, although would not, most likely, be able to remember their name. :)

Marco

27-07-2012, 10:42

Then again I dont hear what others eventually admit to being subtle differences like those from mains plugs and cables.

Who said that the differences between mains cables were subtle? Not me, I was talking about the effect of upgrading plugs and wall sockets. Properly designed, complete mains cables, for high-end audio use, are a different ball game entirely!

Marco.

Marco

27-07-2012, 10:44

:) Well probably I would recognise a person's voice after a month or so, although would not, most likely, be able to remember their name. :)

Who cares what her name was, as long as she was a good 'jump', eh? :D

Marco.

MikeMusic

27-07-2012, 10:48

A single 1m copper earth spike in my case.

How wide ?

prestonchipfryer

27-07-2012, 10:48

Who cares what her name was, as long as she was a good 'jump', eh? :D

Marco.

Now you're talking. Brunette (natural and all over) is a favourite. :D

AlanS

27-07-2012, 10:50

:) Well probably I would recognise a person's voice after a month or so, although would not, most likely, be able to remember their name. :)

I guess it may depend on how many new people one meets in a normal day in the life. Quiet life remembering more likely, busy busy, less likey.

I wonder how the mains spike and earth that many seek to install benefits double insulated components. Many items are these days. ;)

Improve your power supply, get your own substation.

AlanS

27-07-2012, 11:20

Who said that the differences between mains cables were subtle? Not me, I was talking about the effect of upgrading plugs and wall sockets. Properly designed, complete mains cables, for high-end audio use, are a different ball game entirely!

Marco.

I know they arent subtle for you Marco, you've invested too much time cost and evangalising for it to be anything else. How shall I put it mains benefits are circumstance dependant unlike say speakers which benefit even the deaf. Some get huge differences others not. They are not an absolute gain for all.

MikeMusic

27-07-2012, 11:47

I know they arent subtle for you Marco, you've invested too much time cost and evangalising for it to be anything else. How shall I put it mains benefits are circumstance dependant unlike say speakers which benefit even the deaf. Some get huge differences others not. They are not an absolute gain for all.
Martin T first mentioned mains leads to me. Assuming he was on the wrong drugs or something I bought 3 Kimber HC powerkords on Ebay for £124
Not a lot of time invested
The difference was not subtle and I have since moved on up to even better gaining improvements each time

Marco

27-07-2012, 11:49

I know they arent subtle for you Marco, you've invested too much time cost and evangalising for it to be anything else.

Pardon me, but that sounds like a rather sneering swipe, demeaning my valid experiences, and disrespectful, too. If you wish to continue contributing to this thread, Alan, then I'd suggest that you adopt a rather different attitude.

Your "evangelising" is in reality my relating my experiences with cables to other like-minded enthusiasts, plenty of whom have benefited from my recommendations, as have I with theirs. That's what a forum like this is about.

The fact that I've spent a significant sum on cables, and such like, has nothing to do with the very real sonic improvements I've perceived when using said items in my system. That fact is proven by the many times I've 'downgraded', in terms of cost, to using less expensive cables, which to my ears have sonically outperformed the previously more expensive ones I was using - hardly the behaviour of someone who equates the effect of cable upgrades to cost, is it? ;)

How shall I put it mains benefits are circumstance dependant unlike say speakers which benefit even the deaf. Some get huge differences others not. They are not an absolute gain for all.

Sure, but then you've never heard my system, nor been present when the effects I've claimed with cables have been heard, so in that respect, you really don't know what you're talking about. Stick to what you know from your own experiences, mate, which is valid in your world, but don't proclaim to know or judge what happens, in that respect, in mine.

Marco.

Marco

27-07-2012, 12:42

Hi Mark,

In my old house the hi-fi was in the front room and I simply hammered a long length of copper pipe into the front garden - drilled a hole through the wall and ran a length of earth cable from the copper pipe to the earth pin in a 13A plug, which was plugged into a spare socket.

Cool, but I'm sure we can do a bit better than that... You get a much better earth by planting a series of earth rods, in line with each other, than you do with just a single rod. The key is in the length of the rods used, and thus how far down in the ground they can be plunged - the longer and deeper, the better! ;)

Also, how good the earth is can be measured on Matt's various 'doo-dahs'. We can also measure it against the house earth that you're currently using for your system.

The problem with my current setup is that the hi-fi is now on the third floor and the earth cable would have to run up the outside wall (at the back of the house) - does a special 'armoured' cable have to be used for external use?

I woundn't think so, but I'll check with Matt. I just use nice and chunky 6mm earth cable, which does the job nicely. I've got a load of it left over in the garage.

Also, I don't have a spare socket for the cable to be plugged in to and I'm not sure how best to resolve that - any ideas?

I'm sure that Matt will offer a solution to that - nothing ever fazes him! :)

Marco.

AlanS

27-07-2012, 12:44

Martin T first mentioned mains leads to me. Assuming he was on the wrong drugs or something I bought 3 Kimber HC powerkords on Ebay for £124
Not a lot of time invested
The difference was not subtle and I have since moved on up to even better gaining improvements each time

Based on all the enthusiasm here and elsewhere I bought a mains cable £34, big chunky plugs looked the business. It went between the amp and power block. I forgot it was there. Stating it simply it made not a hint of difference. I could have sent it back but could not be arsed its a cable after all.

I bought Tellurium Q Black speaker cables - out of the box joyous sound, detailed, you know the rest. I'd recommend them but my thoughts are not needed.

Maybe I am lucky with my power supply or even my kit. I dont get all the clicks, interferences others complain of, no noise at full volume with no input. Not having all the electrical stuff others fill their homes with.

If I spend £34 on a recommended product and it does SWA then I'm not buying more of same at higher cost because for some people it makes their system sound better.

Best of luck to you with your cable driven improvements. I'm saving my cash for something else.

MikeMusic

27-07-2012, 12:57

You get a much better earth by planting a series of earth rods, in line with each other, than you do with just a single rod. The key is in the length of the rods used, and thus how far down in the ground they can be plunged - the longer and deeper, the better! ;)
Marco.
Now that goes at least part way to explaining why we got such improvements while Paul was fiddling around.
The earth was already 'done' so far as I knew, but the sound got better every time he improved the earth

YNWaN

27-07-2012, 12:57

Cheers Marco, if you have a chance to ask Matt his opinion it would be appreciated.

Yeah, this time I was thinking of 3 rods linked together.

Edit: I've had an idea regarding the termination issue - I'm off to B&Q to investigate options:).

MikeMusic

27-07-2012, 13:00

Based on all the enthusiasm here and elsewhere I bought a mains cable £34, big chunky plugs looked the business. It went between the amp and power block. I forgot it was there.

I bought Tellurium Q Black speaker cables - out of the box joyous sound, detailed, you know the rest. I'd recommend them but my thoughts are not needed.

Almost the opposite of what I had
Mains cables always an improvement.
Tried Black and Ultra Black against my Naim or Naim clone cable and very little difference. Some tracks the Naim was definitely better.
I was staggered. The TQ went back

MartinT

27-07-2012, 13:06

How wide ?

About 1cm. I'll stop there, Mike, as there are dangers to doing this yourself. Let the sparky deal with it.

Marco

27-07-2012, 13:08

If I spend £34 on a recommended product and it does SWA then I'm not buying more of same at higher cost because for some people it makes their system sound better.

I understand that, but then not all products are equal, in terms of performance, and the reason for that is not always to do with cost either.

Why don't you visit someone who can demonstrate the differences with 'audiophile grade' cables and ancillaries that they claim to hear? That way, you can judge by using your own ears, rather than assuming that their experiences are in reality the same as yours, only blinded by what they've spent?

Marco.

MikeMusic

27-07-2012, 13:14

About 1cm. I'll stop there, Mike, as there are dangers to doing this yourself. Let the sparky deal with it.

Only out of interest.
No way I'm doing it
If Marco has a sparky who knows what and why for hifi I'm delighted.
Paul who worked with the builders on the refurb is a great guy. Meticulous, reasurringly anal and super safe, but baffled by the things I told him and asked him to do

MartinT

27-07-2012, 13:15

Based on all the enthusiasm here and elsewhere I bought a mains cable £34, big chunky plugs looked the business. It went between the amp and power block. I forgot it was there. Stating it simply it made not a hint of difference.

That doesn't tell us much, though. What was the cable you bought and what was it made from? 'Big chunky plugs' might just be eye candy. More seriously, what is this power block you mention and what's feeding that?

Treating your mains means taking a holistic approach to attaining synergy. Replacing a single cable in a possibly non-ideal position in the chain may not achieve anything, as you have indicated.

Don't give up on the whole idea because of one failed experiment. Remember my starting advice - invest in a can of Deoxit D5 (http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?google=592) spray and treat every single mains connection in your system. Surely that's worth trying?

sq225917

27-07-2012, 14:00

Skipping back a few....

You'd have to bury an awful lot of copper in an awful lot of salty mud to get anywhere near the low impedance of a good bonded earth.

I'm not one for cables but if I were then the logical end point has to be point to point direct wired with no RCA sockets or wall sockets. If one thinks about the difference between various spring contacts in wall sockets vs no sockets at all one would have to conclude that fancy sockets are just an expensive stop gap. Surely ;-)

Because the only logical end points are no sockets of any kind or replacinlg all you wires with long chains of sockets.

Marco

27-07-2012, 14:09

Hi Simon,

Skipping back a few....

You'd have to bury an awful lot of copper in an awful lot of salty mud to get anywhere near the low impedance of a good bonded earth.

What constitutes as a "good bonded earth" - the standard house one? If not, then what are you referring to exactly?

If so, then why does the dedicated earth for my system measure a far lower impedance than the standard house earth does, and consequently makes my system sound much better?

For me, there's no doubt whatsoever that the dedicated earth for my hi-fi system (provided by 5x 6ft copper rods, plunged deep into my garden lawn) has provided a significant sonic improvement :)

Marco.

AlanS

27-07-2012, 14:13

Almost the opposite of what I had
Mains cables always an improvement.
Tried Black and Ultra Black against my Naim or Naim clone cable and very little difference. Some tracks the Naim was definitely better.
I was staggered. The TQ went back

Mike

I've read on several forum threads that TQ and Naim don't work together well maybe even harmfull and others have found little joy. It may be Naim have something special cable wise or Naim owners look for something different. An example of lack of synergy.

Apart from bloated bass and grainy upper frequencies what else did you improve with your mains cable additions?

Thanks

Marco

27-07-2012, 14:40

No comment on Martin's post #90, Alan? Seems that you would just rather bury your head in the sand ;)

Marco.

MikeMusic

27-07-2012, 14:42

Mike
I've read on several forum threads that TQ and Naim don't work together well maybe even harmfull and others have found little joy. It may be Naim have something special cable wise or Naim owners look for something different. An example of lack of synergy.

Apart from bloated bass and grainy upper frequencies what else did you improve with your mains cable additions?

Thanks
I'd seen good reviews of TQ and assumed it was a done deal. The 'must have Naim cable' I thought was a FUD from years back, mixed in with, I think Monster cable actually doing some amps in

Its been a while, from memory
Less bass, more solid and accurate and - ah *that's* how it should sound way. More space between instruments, wider, more detail. Muffled back ground becoming audible. Generally more clarity.
I started as a sceptic. Even now I find it a bit weird.
Wondered if it had to be a special sort of system, either expensive or wrong.
I think it will work for just about anyone.
The biggest and cheapest upgrade is going to unswitched sockets - and using the left hand, earthed socket
Just remembered I tried a Kimber cable on a crappy portable mains radio.
It worked wonders !

YNWaN

27-07-2012, 15:15

This link is interesting:

http://www.emfs.info/Sources+of+EMFs/distribution/UK/

Marco

27-07-2012, 15:40

Interesting, but too much technical-orientated reading for me, sorry... Could someone provide a précis? :)

Marco.

YNWaN

27-07-2012, 15:59

Well, essential it states there are four ways the main earth bond to your house is made;
1/ entirely by a series of earth rods and the house wiring and pipes are not earthed to the national grid at all (I think this is rare)
2/ the house wiring and pipes are earthed back to the local substation
3/ the neutral feed to the house is used as the earth
4/ this is a mixture of 2 and 3 - there is a separate earth to the house but the neutral feed is also earthed.

MartinT

27-07-2012, 17:16

EPS-100 silver plated double wall socket arrived today and now fitted. The system is warming up so I'll have a proper listen later, see if anything strikes me as different.

brian2957

27-07-2012, 17:58

That doesn't tell us much, though. What was the cable you bought and what was it made from? 'Big chunky plugs' might just be eye candy. More seriously, what is this power block you mention and what's feeding that?

Treating your mains means taking a holistic approach to attaining synergy. Replacing a single cable in a possibly non-ideal position in the chain may not achieve anything, as you have indicated.

Don't give up on the whole idea because of one failed experiment. Remember my starting advice - invest in a can of Deoxit D5 (http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?google=592) spray and treat every single mains connection in your system. Surely that's worth trying?
Totall agree Martin . Deoxit ,in particular , costs around £17 and is a no brainer IMO . I've been using it for years.

Mark Grant

27-07-2012, 18:20

Remember my starting advice - invest in a can of Deoxit D5 (http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?google=592) spray and treat every single mains connection in your system. Surely that's worth trying?

Yes the Deoxit is great stuff and a can lasts for years for occasional home use.

I think my delivered price for Deoxit will probably be less and certainly faster service.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17554&highlight=deoxit

Caig Deoxit D5 Contact Cleaner Spray 142g + Free Accessories (http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=49_80&products_id=404)
-

YNWaN

27-07-2012, 18:56

Any news on my loaner cables Mark?

MartinT

27-07-2012, 20:09

I think my delivered price for Deoxit will probably be less and certainly faster service.

Oops, sorry Mark, I didn't realise you stocked it :rolleyes:

Mike

27-07-2012, 20:13

Yes the Deoxit is great stuff and a can lasts for years for occasional home use.

Err... not chez moi! :D

Marco

27-07-2012, 20:25

That's right, he forgot that you sprayed your pits with it! :eyebrows:

Marco.

AlanS

28-07-2012, 13:19

Pardon me, but that sounds like a rather sneering swipe, demeaning my valid experiences, and disrespectful, too. If you wish to continue contributing to this thread, Alan, then I'd suggest that you adopt a rather different attitude.

Your "evangelising" is in reality my relating my experiences with cables to other like-minded enthusiasts, plenty of whom have benefited from my recommendations, as have I with theirs. That's what a forum like this is about.

The fact that I've spent a significant sum on cables, and such like, has nothing to do with the very real sonic improvements I've perceived when using said items in my system. That fact is proven by the many times I've 'downgraded', in terms of cost, to using less expensive cables, which to my ears have sonically outperformed the previously more expensive ones I was using - hardly the behaviour of someone who equates the effect of cable upgrades to cost, is it? ;)

Sure, but then you've never heard my system, nor been present when the effects I've claimed with cables have been heard, so in that respect, you really don't know what you're talking about. Stick to what you know from your own experiences, mate, which is valid in your world, but don't proclaim to know or judge what happens, in that respect, in mine.

Marco.

Marco

I avoided replying yesterday but knew whatever I said it would fuel your opinions developed during the day so decided it was unwise and most likely futile. Sorry to see you are so sensitive to my words and that you would construe so much that I had not begun to imagine. I started to do an analysis response / reply but it isn't worth it. You seem so convinced of what I am about it is pointless trying to change or inform you.

I am not challenging anything about you or mains cabling/fitting in your system OK and I am saying that knowing there is a 50:50 chance you will not accept it in the spirit given. I am not making any challenge to your experiences (don't think I did did I). With regard to cost I am not interest it's your money you do what you want. I don't think I would enjoy your system, they can be very personal things customised high end and you don't put any importance of sound staging instrument placement do you?

I understand you had other behind the scenes problems yesterday now resolved. It must be hard dealing with so many different types of people running a forum, trying to be peoples pal and the firm hand.

I think I've now got a clear insight into mains matters - if you ain't got super dedicated direct supply and earth then the rest is a waste of whatever it wastes for you. Even then the other bits only make teeny differences you may not notice

AlanS

28-07-2012, 13:23

No comment on Martin's post #90, Alan? Seems that you would just rather bury your head in the sand ;)

Marco.

Thats right no comment Marco probably because I got the impression that whatever I said gets heard differently to what I think I am saying. Accusing me of burying my head in the sand -did you enjoy that posting / saying that

AlanS

28-07-2012, 13:30

That doesn't tell us much, though. What was the cable you bought and what was it made from? 'Big chunky plugs' might just be eye candy. More seriously, what is this power block you mention and what's feeding that?

Treating your mains means taking a holistic approach to attaining synergy. Replacing a single cable in a possibly non-ideal position in the chain may not achieve anything, as you have indicated.

Don't give up on the whole idea because of one failed experiment. Remember my starting advice - invest in a can of Deoxit D5 (http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?google=592) spray and treat every single mains connection in your system. Surely that's worth trying?

Martin

No it does not tell you much but as you ask Mains Cable or Us Cable @ £32 and a white plastic B&Q type 6 way block. I was trying to save his good name here.

I think my mains is better than many peoples so will not be spending my time with what for others is a great benefit and joy

MikeMusic

28-07-2012, 13:39

a white plastic B&Q type 6 way block

That was my problem, (a 4 way actually)
I think it will be yours. Anyone's cable will be struggling with that in the way of clean mains.
The best way I found was to get a bank of unswitched sockets on the wall and not costly unless you have a big gap to bridge from wall to kit

MartinT

28-07-2012, 13:44

No it does not tell you much but as you ask Mains Cable or Us Cable @ £32 and a white plastic B&Q type 6 way block. I was trying to save his good name here.

Ok, well I think his name is safe. I don't know what you might have expected by plugging a good mains cable into a crap 6-way block, but I guess you heard the result - nada. You really have to take things from the sockets onwards - I know I've said it before, but synergy and no bottlenecks in the chain. That block would be doing you no favours at all.

May I suggest that you start with replacing the block with a properly designed unit? You can also go with the Deoxit at that point for all the other connections.

AlanS

28-07-2012, 13:47

I understand that, but then not all products are equal, in terms of performance, and the reason for that is not always to do with cost either.

Why don't you visit someone who can demonstrate the differences with 'audiophile grade' cables and ancillaries that they claim to hear? That way, you can judge by using your own ears, rather than assuming that their experiences are in reality the same as yours, only blinded by what they've spent?

Marco.

Marco

I realise cost is not an indicator of quaility benefit. As i said to Martin it was a MCRU cable much applauded here so judge for yourself.

I see no point in having something demonstrated unless it is in my home and with my kit. As I tried to raise during my posts yesterday each circumstance is different just because person A's setup is transformed does not mean B's is. So one visits someone else - its just that a demo of their world and relates little to my circumstance. Hearing demos of moveable stuff like kit is valid, environment not meaningfull.

As I found out in the last few days with my phone. It went on the blink, then died. Now fixed but I learned from friends and family that they could not hear me clearly for some time, now it is fixed I am clear as a bell (new good cable outside my home) I even bought a new phone to fix the fault, waste of time.

People who say this get hammered here but it is pointless doing power stuff in your home if what is coming in is sub standard. You can dislike that all you want but it is true.

But thanks for the suggestion

MartinT

28-07-2012, 13:53

I think my mains is better than many peoples

You may be lucky, but I doubt it. There are far too many appliances in every home and industry near by. This is what my mains looks like, nowhere near a sinewave so lots of nasty harmonics and noise getting through:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8481/8226143577_3971f82e1e_b.jpg

This is what it looks like from my regenerator, for visual comparison:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8206/8226143475_2fb1f9ff38_b.jpg

AlanS

28-07-2012, 15:00

You may be lucky, but I doubt it. There are far too many appliances in every home and industry near by. This is what my mains looks like, nowhere near a sinewave so lots of nasty harmonics and noise getting through:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8481/8226143577_3971f82e1e_b.jpg

This is what it looks like from my regenerator, for visual comparison:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8206/8226143475_2fb1f9ff38_b.jpg

Thanks for the traces. Id love to see wave condition/shape for various parts of the UK. My domestic environment is low in modern life crap others see as normal, v little industry/commerce evenings.
Unless going for a regenerator poor waveform cannot be relevant, you have what you have and have to make do.
Cables, plugs and sockets cannot reverse/fix up impure supply can they?

MartinT

28-07-2012, 15:17

Cables, plugs and sockets cannot reverse/fix up impure supply can they?

No they can't, but poor supply considerations can make things worse!

AlanS

28-07-2012, 15:56

No they can't, but poor supply considerations can make things worse!

Martin
I'll try a better mains block even though the MCRU plug is a good fit. After that Im give up.
Cheers

Marco

28-07-2012, 23:17

Hi Alan,

First of all, I'd like to apologise for getting a bit heavy with you the other day, but I had that tit 'Daniel Quinn' nipping my head, so I'm sorry for being a bit short tempered :)

Anyway....

I see no point in having something demonstrated unless it is in my home and with my kit.

Good point. Why not arrange for someone to bring some bits and bobs round to your place, where you can then hear the results for yourself in your own system? I'm sure that there must be someone from the forum in your area using an 'audiophile grade' mains block and mains leads.

Either that or take advantage of the 30-day trial period offered by the likes of Mark Grant, and try his superb mains distribution block, shown here: http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=45_59&products_id=193 I can thoroughly recommend it, as I've been using one for years!

If you don't think it makes any difference, you can send it back. I doubt you will though ;)

People who say this get hammered here but it is pointless doing power stuff in your home if what is coming in is sub standard. You can dislike that all you want but it is true.

Sure, but you can still isolate your system as much as possible from the interference caused by your household electical items, computers, etc, which are sharing the same mains supply. Every 'gadget' you've got which uses a cheap switch mode power supply is chucking noise into your mains supply! Even if what's "coming in is sub-standard", you'll still get some benefit from dealing with that.

Have you got a separate mains spur for your hi-fi, or does it just share the same ring-main with every other electrical item in the house? If the latter is the case, then you should get a huge sonic improvement from fitting a separate spur, even before you attend to things like mains blocks and leads.

Marco.

daytona600

29-07-2012, 03:28

mains improvements i agree can only improve a good system icing on the cake
I did not think i had a bad mains supply untill i borrowed a very expensive fluke meter from friend it showed 215v to 249v and was not a pure sine wave with harmonics
my flat is in a block with lots of shops below
tried lots of options finally settled on this
power inspired ag1500 1.5kw regen unit
running springs elgar passive mains conditioner
new mains cables not changed the wall sockets but will later
did make a improvement now 230v 50hz clean power supply

Marco

29-07-2012, 06:20

Where in Glasgow are you, Scott? I know the old city rather well :)

Marco.

daytona600

29-07-2012, 14:23

just south of glasgow minutes of the M74 at strathcylde park
pop in any time your oop north you bring the choons i,ll supply the beer and the food

MCRU

29-07-2012, 14:55

Mains wall socket good idea, if no dedicated internal wiring is possible in the walls good results can be obtained by using mains filters/conditioners such as Isotek Sigmas which is what I use, one of the simplest and best solutions IMO is similar to this picture, a schuko mains block with silver plated internal rails, perfectly legal as long as the block has a UK fused mains plug at the end of the cable to plug into the mains wall socket, of course you would need schuko mains plugs on your power cables but the sonic differences will be considerably better. In case anyone is wondering one of the chief engineers at the british electrical safety council recently quoted the above as being acceptable.

Furutech UK mains plug £88.00, Audiophile Fuse Min. £25 which is over £100 for the pair (no point in paying £88 for a plug and leaving a cheap fuse in it)

Decent quality Schuko plug £15 upwards, food for thought at least!

My Sigmas has schuko sockets in the back of course!

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/1084-thickbox/schuko-mains-power-block-silver-plated-.jpg