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Haselsh1
23-07-2012, 19:26
Two weeks ago I bought an ECC83 Gold Lion by Genalex from Hotrox UK and it has completely revolutionised the sound of my Icon Audio Stereo 20PP. Today I bought two Gold Lion ECC82's which should arrive tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.

Ali Tait
23-07-2012, 21:42
Their EL84's are good too.

WOStantonCS100
24-07-2012, 03:59
Update(s)??? :)

I've been wondering whether or not the Gold Lions are any better than the usual suspects from New Sensor.

Side note: I've gotten both so-so and very good Electro Harmonix valves. It seems the key to getting the good ones is paying that little extra to have the vendor test (and guarantee) said valves for gain, low noise and microphonics, and if applicable, matched/balanced triodes.

camtwister
24-07-2012, 10:33
I've been wondering whether or not the Gold Lions are any better than the usual suspects from New Sensor.


In my experience, yes.

I've posted this previously about the Gold Lion 'copies' and TJ FM valves:
"These two brands, in my opinion, are superior to the other current production alternatives because of lower noise floor, frequency extension, linearity of response and perceived quality of construction (based on external visual inspection only)."

Matching of dual triodes and then pairs and quads is also worth the extra effort.

Haselsh1
24-07-2012, 13:18
Genalex Gold Lion ECC83 and ECC82

Eleanor McEvoy ‘Yola’ SACD using the hybrid CD layer

Original 2008F HDCD CD player
Icon Audio Stereo 20PP amplifier
Celestion F28 loudspeakers

One thing to keep in mind with these valves from the outset is that they do not ‘glow’ in the traditional sense of a bright orange glow so it is very easy to imagine that one or more has blown. Apparently it is perfectly normal for these valves not to glow.

I used to think that the Icon Audio Stereo 20PP was just an unassuming, ordinary, low cost valve amplifier of average spec but these valves have completely transformed this unit. I used to think that CD was forward, brash and far too obvious; not any more. These valves have revolutionised my amplifier in every way. I now have a depth from CD that produces images way off back into the neighbours lounge and that is something I have never heard from CD before but there is a price to pay. Due to the now extreme depth, the sound appears a lot quieter than it used to be reinforcing the view by Icon Audio themselves that this amplifier only really suits small scale acoustic and orchestral music. Whilst playing ‘Yola’ it is very easy now to hear the dryness of Eleanor’s mouth whilst she is singing on certain songs and it is so easy to pick up the switch from fretless electric bass to string bass and back again.

Small scale strummed rhythm guitar is now a joy to pick out way back in the mix and tiny little examples of cowbells or similar chimes are so easy to hear. Everything is now slightly dryer than it used to be with a much closer acoustic feel which leads to a much more intimate experience. The track ‘Dreaming of Leaving’ is an absolute revelation now. This is a much more emotional experience than it used to be mainly due to the intimacy of the new sound and the pure and natural way things are now reproduced.

It is quite clear to me that the Icon Audio Stereo 20PP is a completely different device to the one I thought I had and this is solely due to the new valves. It will be around five weeks before I can look at replacing the EL84’s but I really can’t wait.

Very best wishes everyone.

Marco
24-07-2012, 15:05
Excellent stuff, Shaun. It's always great to hear of tweaks, which succeed at getting more from your favourite music :cool:

How much are the ECC83s? I might try some in my Croft preamp. Some nice close-up pics of the valves in question (showing the internal construction), would be nice! :)

Marco.

P.S I've moved the thread to S.O.G, as it now represents more of a review.

Haselsh1
24-07-2012, 15:37
Excellent stuff, Shaun. It's always great to hear of tweaks, which succeed at getting more from your favourite music :cool:

How much are the ECC83s? I might try some in my Croft preamp. Some nice close-up pics of the valves in question (showing the internal construction), would be nice! :)

Marco.

P.S I've moved the thread to S.O.G, as it now represents more of a review.

Marco, the ECC83 I think was around thirty two quid with the ECC82's being twenty nine each. There's a ten quid next day courier charge on top of that as well.

Check out:

http://www.hotroxuk.com/

Haselsh1
24-07-2012, 15:47
I guess that in short, changing these valves has been the equivalent of buying a much more expensive amplifier but I have retained the sound of EL84 valves and their midrange. What a shame tranny users are stuck with what they have..? It's kind of like digital photography all over again. I use film and have countless possibilities whereas digital users are stuck with the CCD they bought and can't do a damn thing about it. Such a shame :eyebrows:

Ali Tait
24-07-2012, 16:39
What 84's are you using at the moment? The Gold Lions are good but not cheap. Have a look on eBay for EL84M, I have found them equally as good if not better, and they are far cheaper.

WOStantonCS100
24-07-2012, 17:36
Small scale strummed rhythm guitar is now a joy to pick out way back in the mix and tiny little examples of cowbells or similar chimes are so easy to hear. Everything is now slightly dryer than it used to be with a much closer acoustic feel which leads to a much more intimate experience.

That was exactly my experience when I last swapped valves. I'm trying the tested/balanced EH 6922's in my phono pre and have JAN 6189W's (12au7) in my pre. It's going to be pretty hard to top the JAN's (they just sound freakin' awesome); however, even though they're pretty good, I'm hoping the Gold Lion 6922 will be a significant upgrade, still, over the EH's. If they are, I'll have to try a couple of their 12au7's just to see how they compare with the JAN's.

WOStantonCS100
24-07-2012, 17:44
These are what we're talking about, right...

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-8476489043850_2214_157147828

Haselsh1
24-07-2012, 21:20
They are indeed...! The very ones.

Ali Tait
24-07-2012, 22:07
What 84's are you using at the moment? The Gold Lions are good but not cheap. Have a look on eBay for EL84M, I have found them equally as good if not better, and they are far cheaper.

I'm talking about the Sovtek ones BTW.

Haselsh1
21-08-2012, 12:51
Well, as indicated, I bought a matched quad of Genalex 'Gold Lion' EL84's and they arrived today having been ordered yesterday. I put them in the amp and fired it up but only gave it half an hour warm up as I wanted to get stuck into listening. The CD I used was 'Guilty' by Hugh Cornwell and the most immediate thing was the smoothness of the upper mid and treble. These things are so much more natural than the original Chinese EL84's. The tambourine has lost all of its brittle metallic edge as have the vocals even after just a half hour warm up.

Stereo imaging side to side is much louder and stronger than before but the depth hasn't increased any over the Gold Lion 12AX7 and 12AU7's that I put in previously. Midrange, especially lightly overdriven guitar is stunning whilst vocals sound extremely transparent. The increase in levels of detail now remind of my Croft pre/power combo from 2009 but bass hasn't improved that I can tell at first listen.

Worth ninety quid...? Well I'm not sure. The increase gained by ninety quids worth of pre valves was astonishing but the difference gained by the power valves is much more subtle. I am pleased though that I now have a full set of such good valves.

Haselsh1
21-08-2012, 13:00
The treble now reminds me of Audiolab 8000M's being very smooth but very sharply etched. I need to do a lot more listening to be honest, I'll post more when I have more.

AlexM
27-08-2012, 11:11
I have always thought that the small signal valves tend to make a more significant contribution to the sound than the power valves. I have used the Genelex re-issue KT-88s in my Rogue Stereo 90, and found them to be a big improvement over the supposedly identical Electro-Harmonix KT-88, which aren't a bad valve at in themselves. IN my old pre-amp I found the EH 6SN7 gold pin types to perform very well and they sound very clear, but there was sometimes a slight impression of treble hardness on some recordings. I'd be interested to try some of the Genelex 6SN7s in my power amp to see if they are an improvement.

It would be interesting to know what differentiates them in detail - the internal structure of the Genelex and EH KT-88s are identical as far as I can tell, but the coatings may be different and the Genelex KT-88s have a double getter for longer life.

Recommended, but they are somewhat pricey and there are plenty of NOS alternatives to try.

Regards,
Alex

Haselsh1
28-08-2012, 14:06
Genalex Gold Lion EL84 quad set

Tom Jones, Praise and Blame

OK so I wasn’t too impressed with these valves on first listen so here goes again.

These valves sound bright. The treble is very sharp and finely etched as is the upper midrange but this gives a great feeling of detail and presence with a helluva lot of detail being uncovered and laid bare. The sound is not tiring or fatiguing as is often the case with an over emphasized top end it is merely a little fresh sounding.

The midrange is excellent with a fantastic amount of detail on show and a much louder and stronger sense of left/right stereo image. Do not get the impression that these valves produce a warm and cuddly valve sound, they simply do not. They produce a bright breezy sound which is quite different to anything I have ever been used to.

The bass…? Well its there and it is strong and neutral with a phenomenal sense of reality. The large scale drums on ‘What Good Am I’ from the Tom Jones album are put across with such realism I have not yet heard this from any hi-fi I have ever listened to. OK, 15 Watts is never going to do a proper job of total realism but I am not talking about just volume I am talking about the ‘sound’ of a skin on a frame.

Prior to this amplifier, the finest sound I had ever heard came from a WAD 300B PP which I owned back in the nineties. This amplifier had the most astonishing level of ‘space’ and ‘airiness’ to it’s sound which I have never heard since from any amplifier. My Icon Audio still comes nowhere near the 300B PP but where it beats that amplifier hands down is in sheer foot tapping musicality which the 300B never had. The Icon Audio now sounds a lot stronger than the WAD with a much more forceful sound. I’m really not sure which I prefer but this is largely irrelevant as I sold the 300B around Y2K and I now have the Stereo 20 PP which is a permanent fixture in my system. Back in 2009 I owned a Croft pre/power combo but this has been greatly superceded by the Icon Audio which is now better in almost every sense. The way the EL84’s now separate the layers of volume in the mix is something that the Croft could never do. The Croft merely made Tom Jones sound far too loud and raucous with everything being in front of the speakers. The Icon Audio lays everything so far back with the rightful instrument taking up its rightful position.

So, do I think these valves are worth it now…?

These valves are staggering and if you have £100 laying around I wholeheartedly recommend them. In fact they are better than this. Words fail me.