Rega Isis

[MikeMusic]

As promised my first 'proper' words
Compared to a Naim CDX2
I sort of lusted after the 555 but that is insane brand new and even 2nd hand is much too serious money
I like the CDX2 but the Isis does out perform it by some distance - no surprise to those who know it I assume
This is a good box.
More detail, more and tighter bass, more sustain on the notes, dead stop silence when there is no music, more rhythm
There is detail in tracks I have not heard before
You want to keep playing CDs

Rest of the system, see footer
with Kimber Signature mains lead
Telurium Phone lead into a Phono/Din adaptor

Rega offer a lifetime guarantee, even if you buy 2nd hand as I did, with 2 CD transports held in store as long as I have the original receipt - I do
This makes this box a steal - don't you think ?

[realysm42]

It sounds like a nice bit of kit, but it's hard to agree whether or not it's a steal without knowing the price?

[MartinT]

It certainly sounded better than the CDX2 to my ears, Mike. As you gradually sort your system out, that machine is going to get better and better like all great components. I think you have a keeper there - your last CD player? I certainly think I have my last.

[DSJR]

The Isis shouldn't need Tellurium cables to do its stuff (it's better than a 555 CD by all accounts too :)), but since you have them, worth guilding this particular lily I think :) I don't think the CDX is bad at all, but the two Isis players do have something special about them.

[MikeMusic]

It sounds like a nice bit of kit, but it's hard to agree whether or not it's a steal without knowing the price?

£2650
Final test January 2010
Had a sheltered life being on demo for a year

[MikeMusic]

It certainly sounded better than the CDX2 to my ears, Mike. As you gradually sort your system out, that machine is going to get better and better like all great components. I think you have a keeper there - your last CD player? I certainly think I have my last.
Hope we can have a longer comparison next time you are over.
'Magic ears Sally said - "well that's *much* better" just a few bars in.
There are two or three layers pulled away
Yes, my guess is this will be my last CD player

[MikeMusic]

The Isis shouldn't need Tellurium cables to do its stuff (it's better than a 555 CD by all accounts too :)), but since you have them, worth guilding this particular lily I think :) I don't think the CDX is bad at all, but the two Isis players do have something special about them.

I'll compare the Rega to Tellurium cables
I will be playing it more from next week on - after the Tour finishes
:)

[DSJR]

£2650 is below trade price so a bargain from a dealer who probably just wanted his money back, not probably being a "reference" dealer any more. Cheapens the product for everyone else though sadly, as the few remaining dealers with demo ones will have to give them away when the time comes :(

A great pair of machines (I'm partial to the valve one, accepting the valves may add a little "magic" of their own) which ALWAYS put the music first IMO.

[MikeMusic]

£2650 is below trade price so a bargain from a dealer who probably just wanted his money back, not probably being a "reference" dealer any more. Cheapens the product for everyone else though sadly, as the few remaining dealers with demo ones will have to give them away when the time comes :(

A great pair of machines (I'm partial to the valve one, accepting the valves may add a little "magic" of their own) which ALWAYS put the music first IMO.
Sold by the dealer to the guy I bought it from as a demo machine. What would you expect the price should be ?

Having a lifetime warranty is an amazing deal. 2 CD transports kept for *me* in Rega stores is even better.
I spoke to Simon at Rega about the machine and he reckoned the SS and Valve were different and really you should have one of each :D

[hifi_dave]

Pity it wasn't the valve version..:doh:

[MikeMusic]

Pity it wasn't the valve version..:doh:
One will be along sooner or later (he said)

This is a fine machine for sure

[nat8808]

£2650 is below trade price so a bargain from a dealer who probably just wanted his money back, not probably being a "reference" dealer any more. Cheapens the product for everyone else though sadly, as the few remaining dealers with demo ones will have to give them away when the time comes :(


Surely a one-off deal isn't going to effect other dealer's sales?

If it was an on-going price then maybe.. It's part of the competitiveness of business if one decides to sell ex-demo at below trade. Hopefully that will get punters in checking out other things. Can't go around price-fixing now can we..

[DSJR]

How many of these things have actually sold to end users in this country? Half a dozen tops I bet. The market for such things is TINY these days and really, not much more country-wide than people on HiFi forums.

[MikeMusic]

How many of these things have actually sold to end users in this country? Half a dozen tops I bet. The market for such things is TINY these days and really, not much more country-wide than people on HiFi forums.
I'd be interested to know how many are around. Can't see me selling this
Two more for sale on Ebay, one current I think, around £2995.

[Darren]

How many of these things have actually sold to end users in this country? Half a dozen tops I bet. The market for such things is TINY these days and really, not much more country-wide than people on HiFi forums.

Surely more than that Dave? It's not worth developing any product when you only sell 6 on the home market.:scratch:

[SCIDB]

Surely more than that Dave? It's not worth developing any product when you only sell 6 on the home market.:scratch:

Hi,

Not if you can sell more abroad. Alot of British Hifi companies will be exporting loads because Hifi is a world market. The Far east can be an important market for many.

It would be interesing to know how many Isis have been sold in the UK and world wide.

I too have seen a fair number come up for grabs 2nd hand or ex-dem. There has been 2 on ebay for under £3000 recently.

I have had a solid state Isis around my house and it was excellent.

[DSJR]

Well, Alex_UK and I have had a most wonderful day listening to the Isis Valve player through all sorts of amps and speakers. Not once did this machine ever draw attention to itself, as befits a true great IMO, but my Gawd, the degrees of subtlety and perspective it allowed through were severely changed by the choice of amp used, let alone the speakers.

MikeMusic, those limiting Naims of yours will HAVE to go, as you haven't even begun to hear what your CD player is capable of ;) I'm serious here.....

[jandl100]

Surely more than that Dave? It's not worth developing any product when you only sell 6 on the home market.:scratch:

I think there are quite a few Brit manufacturers, even those who make the kit in GB, that aren't really interested in the home market at all. Almost all their kit is exported.

I had a chat with one small company owner of that ilk, and he said that the Brit distributors/dealers/buyers were just too much trouble and hassle to do business with!

[MikeMusic]

MikeMusic, those limiting Naims of yours will HAVE to go, as you haven't even begun to hear what your CD player is capable of ;) I'm serious here.....
Thanks interesting pointer.
I'll be looking at amps in the future
What sort of kit was doing a good job for the Isis ?

[DSJR]

The matching Osiris will out-Naim any Naim on the market, but you may feel it's a dead end as it's an integrated, albeit of superb build and sonic quality. I was incredibly taken with the Icon Audio Stereo 60 III (the new one with meter on the front), which really does have the grip and punch of good solid state yet with that indefinable "something" that GOOD valve gear brings to the musical listening session. In the past, I've heard the Albarry mono's with various preamps including their own (Croft 25RS preferred here) and these should drive the Isobarik load with ease, grace and proper definition in musical terms.

Just my thoughts on admittedly more limited experience these days. heck, a Krell KSA80 from the late 80's sounded better and drove difficult loads better than any Naims of the period. We were prevented from exploring this avenue in the main shop because of a naim-centric sales director who was determined not to have his "position" compromised by those staff who could easily show these differences back then, given the dem stock. Apologies, but it has to be said. Even the Krell 250 integrated from ten years ago out-performed a 282/Supercap and 250 in the current casework, and they've done nothing in recent years to change that view - they're slowly moving away from the old fashioned stereo black-box-stack anyway and more into rich people's lifestyle streaming solutions in any case and it wouldn't surprise me if the current traditional range isn't slowly retired as time goes on as it's totally outclassed now by cheaper modern (and modern takes on valve) gear, only selling on it's 80's reputation and admittedly strong reliability and service backup.

Sorry to upset any staunch Naimies here, but it has to be said IMO and I'm not alone in thinking this.

[MikeMusic]

The matching Osiris will out-Naim any Naim on the market, but you may feel it's a dead end as it's an integrated, albeit of superb build and sonic quality. I was incredibly taken with the Icon Audio Stereo 60 III (the new one with meter on the front), which really does have the grip and punch of good solid state yet with that indefinable "something" that GOOD valve gear brings to the musical listening session. In the past, I've heard the Albarry mono's with various preamps including their own (Croft 25RS preferred here) and these should drive the Isobarik load with ease, grace and proper definition in musical terms.

Just my thoughts on admittedly more limited experience these days. heck, a Krell KSA80 from the late 80's sounded better and drove difficult loads better than any Naims of the period. We were prevented from exploring this avenue in the main shop because of a naim-centric sales director who was determined not to have his "position" compromised by those staff who could easily show these differences back then, given the dem stock. Apologies, but it has to be said. Even the Krell 250 integrated from ten years ago out-performed a 282/Supercap and 250 in the current casework, and they've done nothing in recent years to change that view - they're slowly moving away from the old fashioned stereo black-box-stack anyway and more into rich people's lifestyle streaming solutions in any case and it wouldn't surprise me if the current traditional range isn't slowly retired as time goes on as it's totally outclassed now by cheaper modern (and modern takes on valve) gear, only selling on it's 80's reputation and admittedly strong reliability and service backup.

Sorry to upset any staunch Naimies here, but it has to be said IMO and I'm not alone in thinking this.
Wondered about the Osiris. *Any* Naim ?!
Naim still have the name (!) of course, at least for the time being, and a lot of dealers moving a lot of boxes.
You heard the Krell 250 against the Naim set up in this recent session then ?

[DSJR]

In an earlier session when the Krell was current (I worked in a retailer from the old Linn/Naim/Rega days who was merging the Ab Sounds other stores into one)

I did hear the Osiris yesterday, and very clean and dynamic it is too. "Any Naim" applies 'cos the stereo separates stuff is basically the same inside, just with bigger supplies but not much more absolute power. Indeed, bridging the circuit in the 555 depends on whether this has been done to double the voltage swich or the current. Either way, it's compromised one way or another and the circuit is out of the ark, more than many valve circuits IMO...

[MikeMusic]

In an earlier session when the Krell was current (I worked in a retailer from the old Linn/Naim/Rega days who was merging the Ab Sounds other stores into one)

I did hear the Osiris yesterday, and very clean and dynamic it is too. "Any Naim" applies 'cos the stereo separates stuff is basically the same inside, just with bigger supplies but not much more absolute power. Indeed, bridging the circuit in the 555 depends on whether this has been done to double the voltage swich or the current. Either way, it's compromised one way or another and the circuit is out of the ark, more than many valve circuits IMO...

I know you can't compare prices to performance but surely a Naim 552 and a 500 surely cannot be out performed by the Osiris ?

[DSJR]

Why can' it? You don't understand Naim's profit margins which are higher for dealer and themselves than Rega's are, and also the way technology has moved forward since the late 60's, when the naim circuit, as used by them, was conceived.

Transistor design hasn't stood still since 1967, and better more powerful and quieter transistors have enabled far more powerful and simpler circuits to be used. Some manufacturers could be annoying in the 80's and 90's because they were constantly taking advantage of new developments, changing their gear almost with every batch and all but annualy, but good old Naim have just stood still with the same old, same old, maybe bettering their output transistors with "improved" ones as they've gone on. However, apart from loads of remote supplies (when ideally they should be on the board alongside the bit they're regulating), the circuits don't seem to have seen much development, let alone superior components here and there. I mean, even many very old valve circuits have benefitted from better and closer tolerance cheaper components over recent years..

You're just going to have to do some open-hearted listening for yourself over the next year or two. I still think Glenn Croft's gear beats the pants off all of them, but it's something you're going to have to research for yourself and after doing this, if you strongly disagree with me, well fine - but at least you'll have found out for yourself and hopefully enjoyed the journey of discovery of life after Naim :cool:

[MikeMusic]

Why can' it? You don't understand Naim's profit margins which are higher for dealer and themselves than Rega's are, and also the way technology has moved forward since the late 60's, when the naim circuit, as used by them, was conceived.

Transistor design hasn't stood still since 1967, and better more powerful and quieter transistors have enabled far more powerful and simpler circuits to be used. Some manufacturers could be annoying in the 80's and 90's because they were constantly taking advantage of new developments, changing their gear almost with every batch and all but annualy, but good old Naim have just stood still with the same old, same old, maybe bettering their output transistors with "improved" ones as they've gone on. However, apart from loads of remote supplies (when ideally they should be on the board alongside the bit they're regulating), the circuits don't seem to have seen much development, let alone superior components here and there. I mean, even many very old valve circuits have benefitted from better and closer tolerance cheaper components over recent years..

You're just going to have to do some open-hearted listening for yourself over the next year or two. I still think Glenn Croft's gear beats the pants off all of them, but it's something you're going to have to research for yourself and after doing this, if you strongly disagree with me, well fine - but at least you'll have found out for yourself and hopefully enjoyed the journey of discovery of life after Naim :cool:
I struggle to believe Naim margins are that good
I wish I could get anywhere near that running a print co.
Hey Rega make a profit. Can't see that the market place would allow such an imbalance
A 552 and a 500 are what, around £32,000 ?
And the Osiris is better at around £6000 ?!
I'm happy to compare and perfectly open minded, especially if it can be done for very little dough !
My next move is getting the front end better, I assume with Phono Pre and a SUT. Some other bits to sort on tidying up and then I'll be looking at amps

[DSJR]

Mike, I could give you chapter and verse on markups for many manufacturers, but I can assure you that Rega don't give dealers huge margins, they never did and only the top select few with serious turnover (the 20-80 rule - 20% do 80% of the business) get reasonable margins that the likes of Sevenoaks would laugh and sneer at. A retired businessman told me that the rule of business for him was to buy in cheaply and sell for as much as the market will pay. Naim have followed this rule for decades now, but I can reliably assure you that a preamp doesn't need to sell for £13000, when a valve or a modern op-amp with a mere handful of support components can be made to sound utterly transparent to the signal fed it. ARC charge £10K or more for their latest reference preamp confection, full of clarity caps. They "obviously" can't get it right as it's already in series 5 "improved" form. All a load of absolute bollix to rip unsuspecting rich audiophools off to continually upgrade and replace when a preamp circuit can be utterly acoustically transparent with as little as possible in the signal path - and not a fortune load of bits supporting that signal path either.

Just go and listen for yourself. I really do think you'll be in for a real ear opener and will start to tread a well worn path away from the "UK's terrible two." I've done it myself and like a reformed smoker, I rail against the ripoffs perpetrated in what's left of this industry. Some firms really are going for sh*t or bust and the few getting away with it have either been taken over/merged, or are selling it all abroad.. As I said, my current exposure to new product is strictly limited, but one £2K valve amp I heard and loved yesterday has 4 ohm tappings on it IIRC so should handle the 4 ohm 'Brik load.

As for phono stages, of course the Croft one at £500, individually hand made and with no weight to it at all, may be discarded as too cheap or not good enough without listening to it, but that would be a shame. The SUT is the bit that should cost similar because the metal isn't that cheap, but again, your cartridge isn't made with gold or platinum wires and the tonearm certainly isn't. Indeed, the French sourced? exit cable they used is a very humble coax and gives the ARO its signatire "sound" I discovered some years ago...

[jandl100]

By far the most effective aspect of Naim is its marketting strategy. You just have to be impressed by that!

It is always tempting, but often wrong, to listen with your wallet rather than your ears. I suspect it was Stan Beresford, quite a lot of years ago now with his 7510 mk2 DAC, that taught me that lesson. Lots of people are impressed by price tags, though - there have been many excellent products that have failed in the market place because their prices were too low to appear credible.

It isn't just margins that make a difference to Sound/£ - as Dave says, there are better and cheaper ways of doing things as technologies are improved upon and production techniques are refined.

[DSJR]

And although I haven't heard it yet, so it's all other's opinion, but the Bushmaster appears to be a wonderful example of careful application of modern DAC chipsets to get another giant killer?

Rega's Roy Gandy worked at Ford Motors I believe in his early days and his entire ethos for Rega was to get first class performance for little cost. It's all very well getting a reference grade product costing thousands and thousands of pounds when one is able to just throw money at it, but quite another to get the same performance from something costing hundreds! The Croft Micro series of preamps, despite their simple exteriors and internal parts off the shelf at RS Components & Maplins, have always done a wonderful job of seeing off far more expensive competition because the basic design is right to start with. of course Marco has gone on and souped his own up with bespoke components, but in fairness,%2

[MikeMusic]

Mike, I could give you chapter and verse on markups for many manufacturers, .....
I'd be interested to hear what sort of margins they all have and guesses as to build cost - purely from a business perspective

I'm a natural cheapskate and I know that you don't always get what you pay for. Most of my buys have come via Ebay or similar at knockdown (to me) prices.
I assume and hope I can move most things on for roughly what I paid for them.
It appeals to my sense of natural justice and karma to pay very little and out perform expensive gear.
The reason I'm here is to get more music out of my system. The key is the music. The system is the tool and can change
As Prince Charles might say "I'm all ears"
:)

[MikeMusic]

By far the most effective aspect of Naim is its marketting strategy. You just have to be impressed by that!

It is always tempting, but often wrong, to listen with your wallet rather than your ears. I suspect it was Stan Beresford, quite a lot of years ago now with his 7510 mk2 DAC, that taught me that lesson. Lots of people are impressed by price tags, though - there have been many excellent products that have failed in the market place because their prices were too low to appear credible.

It isn't just margins that make a difference to Sound/£ - as Dave says, there are better and cheaper ways of doing things as technologies are improved upon and production techniques are refined.

And as we probably all know - some companies can sell more product by increasing the price, even doubling it

[DSJR]

:lol:

Mike, I apologise for ranting off in posts above. I have good reason to in a way, in the same way Richard Dunn (NVA) feels he was shafted by the UK audio retail industry back then as a competitor who couldn't get a look in. So many of us then youngsters were well and truly brainwashed in the late 70's with some genuinely good things, but these genuine truths then spun out to promote only certain brands' products (one reason why I get all shirty about the spin and exaggerated truths spouted regularly on the AVI forum).

At the time of typing this, you have isobariks, which happen to be a pretty demanding load for ANY amp to deliver into. The later stand-mounted crossovers did help a bit I think, but it's still a 4 ohm load and not hugely efficient as I remember, so you're going to need goodly current-based Watts and sadly, we come back to a decent power supply to feed the amp circuit with enough juice to row it all along. Decent power supplies cost loads of dosh, relatively speaking, so you're looking at quite expensive domestic amps and maybe a chosen (very) few pro models which have the necessary power, AND the musical abilities so you can "suspend disbelief" as a domestic listener. In the case of 'briks, going active used to make a heck of an improvement in a Linn based system, but the naim six-pack 135 setup just wasn't up to it, the sound clipping quite early (not that loud when read on a calibrated spl meter). A trio of 555's may take things further, but at what cost?

One direction you may be able to look down is the active ATC route. So many people, including me, went from Naim to ATC actives and even though their prices aren't as keen as once they were, they're still shedloads cheaper than a full blown Linn or Naim active setup. The SCM50ASL system is around the same in terms of volume output and balance I believe to later active 'Briks but for well under ten grand all in, but some SCM100ASL's are substantially better (yes, I have compared them directly as a friend has both systems, late 'Brik six-pack AND SCM100A's) in EVERY way and including stands and cables all ready to go, you're looking at ten grand or less. OK, you can't really prat around with bits of wonky wire, fancy plugs etc, but with clean mains going in (one thing you could look at now as well), they'll swipe the pants off the Briks you have, and by a ginormous margin - trust me :)

Of course, if you have the room you could always look at the "new" Lockwood Majors, like Marco's, but with new cabs and fully refurbed drivers/crossovers. Unless I'm mistaken, a fully rebuilt pair of drivers in these new boxes should be under three grand??????? maybe a little more perhaps - oooooh, lovely and the lovely world of decent subtle valve gear opens up then :)

[MikeMusic]

:lol:

Mike, I apologise for ranting off in posts above. I have good reason to in a way, in the same way Richard Dunn (NVA) feels he was shafted by the UK audio retail industry back then as a competitor who couldn't get a look in. So many of us then youngsters were well and truly brainwashed in the late 70's with some genuinely good things, but these genuine truths then spun out to promote only certain brands' products (one reason why I get all shirty about the spin and exaggerated truths spouted regularly on the AVI forum).

At the time of typing this, you have isobariks, which happen to be a pretty demanding load for ANY amp to deliver into. The later stand-mounted crossovers did help a bit I think, but it's still a 4 ohm load and not hugely efficient as I remember, so you're going to need goodly current-based Watts and sadly, we come back to a decent power supply to feed the amp circuit with enough juice to row it all along. Decent power supplies cost loads of dosh, relatively speaking, so you're looking at quite expensive domestic amps and maybe a chosen (very) few pro models which have the necessary power, AND the musical abilities so you can "suspend disbelief" as a domestic listener. In the case of 'briks, going active used to make a heck of an improvement in a Linn based system, but the naim six-pack 135 setup just wasn't up to it, the sound clipping quite early (not that loud when read on a calibrated spl meter). A trio of 555's may take things further, but at what cost?

One direction you may be able to look down is the active ATC route. So many people, including me, went from Naim to ATC actives and even though their prices aren't as keen as once they were, they're still shedloads cheaper than a full blown Linn or Naim active setup. The SCM50ASL system is around the same in terms of volume output and balance I believe to later active 'Briks but for well under ten grand all in, but some SCM100ASL's are substantially better (yes, I have compared them directly as a friend has both systems, late 'Brik six-pack AND SCM100A's) in EVERY way and including stands and cables all ready to go, you're looking at ten grand or less. OK, you can't really prat around with bits of wonky wire, fancy plugs etc, but with clean mains going in (one thing you could look at now as well), they'll swipe the pants off the Briks you have, and by a ginormous margin - trust me :)

Of course, if you have the room you could always look at the "new" Lockwood Majors, like Marco's, but with new cabs and fully refurbed drivers/crossovers. Unless I'm mistaken, a fully rebuilt pair of drivers in these new boxes should be under three grand??????? maybe a little more perhaps - oooooh, lovely and the lovely world of decent subtle valve gear opens up then :)

I'm still all ears, especially when you talk cheap
:)
I always thought Naim and Linn + a few others were fighting 'our' corner against the rest of the dross and majority of the 'hifi' market place
I'll work my way through and end up with more music. If all the kit goes then so be it. Maybe I can make money on it !

[DSJR]

You've already heard how to upgrade the phono stage, just wait till you go for line stage comparisons - and I quite liked the 82 and 282 at the time as well :lol:

[hifi_dave]

I'm still of the opinion that the Isobariks are the (very) weak link/bottleneck in your system. Move them on and replace with an easy to drive speaker and everything will fall into place and at a far lower price than your present system is worth.

[DSJR]

I know just the suspect to consider, don't we Dave??????? - and it ain't Ovators!

I said ATC, but Tannoy keeps coming to the fore. Such a HUGE shame they've never properly promoted their top range models here, and when they have, the prices have put people off, hence good used ones dropping in value like a stone once a couple of years old:( This may work to your advantage if some Turnberry SE's or Canterbury's come up, as Glenairs also seem to "ex dem" - cough..... The 12" DMT's should be good to go as well but all the 70's ones like Cheviots, Berkeleys and Ardens will be shagged by now, sound very coloured in stock form even when working and will need some severe crossover and cabinet work to update them properly IMO.

[jandl100]

I always thought Naim and Linn + a few others were fighting 'our' corner against the rest of the dross and majority of the 'hifi' market place

No, they were only ever fighting for themselves. Their success was to the huge detriment of excellent competing designs and to the overall loss of the hifi & music loving UK community as a whole, imho.

Mind you, the US was heavily influenced as well -- even rabid Flat Earthers like Art Dudley are now seeing the errors of their old ways.

It was all very sad, imo.

[MikeMusic]

You've already heard how to upgrade the phono stage, just wait till you go for line stage comparisons - and I quite liked the 82 and 282 at the time as well :lol:

I've heard Martin T's SUT and Phono Pre amp going into my 82
Are you saying I can gain as much improvement with replacing the 82 for the CD input ?
Surely not as Martin's kit was going through the 82

[MikeMusic]

I'm still of the opinion that the Isobariks are the (very) weak link/bottleneck in your system. Move them on and replace with an easy to drive speaker and everything will fall into place and at a far lower price than your present system is worth.

But I love my Isobariks
<sob>

[MikeMusic]

I know just the suspect to consider, don't we Dave??????? - and it ain't Ovators!

I said ATC, but Tannoy keeps coming to the fore. Such a HUGE shame they've never properly promoted their top range models here, and when they have, the prices have put people off, hence good used ones dropping in value like a stone once a couple of years old:( This may work to your advantage if some Turnberry SE's or Canterbury's come up, as Glenairs also seem to "ex dem" - cough..... The 12" DMT's should be good to go as well but all the 70's ones like Cheviots, Berkeleys and Ardens will be shagged by now, sound very coloured in stock form even when working and will need some severe crossover and cabinet work to update them properly IMO.

Well I said I would consider anything to get more music so I should think about speakers too. That might be difficult
I'd like to start at the front and, hopefully move through the chain

[MikeMusic]

No, they were only ever fighting for themselves. Their success was to the huge detriment of excellent competing designs and to the overall loss of the hifi & music loving UK community as a whole, imho.

Mind you, the US was heavily influenced as well -- even rabid Flat Earthers like Art Dudley are now seeing the errors of their old ways.

It was all very sad, imo.

Damn
<note to self>
don't be naive

[YNWaN]

Blimey Dave, you don't half carry a lot of 'anti Naim' baggage!

You criticise them for using an old circuit and then say that technology has moved on, at the same time you love your valve amps, often based on even older circuits!

When I dealt with Naim the margins they offered were no better than anyone else's and it's not long ago that a dealer privately complained to me about them not being higher.

Don't let any of that get in the way though of your complaining though :)

[DSJR]

Simple, the RCA circuit is from the solid state stone age, quasi-complimentary, bodged up for, I believe, for PNP transistors as against NPN's originally used (and apparently with two coupling caps fed with reversed bias!). It's an old and out-dated implementation. Just look at some of the newer designs around which offer so much more... Trad Naim is like Morgan sports cars - totally outclassed but with charm and reliability for those that love them.

I'm in Ashley mode, having a go at the hero worship "there." It's just that when people get so set in their ways, they sometimes need a kick up the backside to shift gear and look at good new products. I'm a classic example of that - ask Marco :lol:

As for Mike, if the 'Briks were pensioned off, that would be a fine start :respect:

[sq225917]

And yet against all that the 135's deliver so much.