Which is the greatest Croft Pre & Power Amp?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Croft is a name that makes a regular appearence in these forum pages and after looking at Glenns site I note that he has designed many well respected amps. But I have one simple question. If you could choose just one croft pre and power amp combo of all time which would it be?

Andy

[DSJR]

Pretty well ALL of them I reckon :king:

Well, apart from the excesses he was sometimes responsible for when he was lost to mere mortals in the EA days :lol:

It could be said that the RS versions of his current crop may come very close to the pinnacle of the list, since he's got the basics so right and without foo boutique components and cases :)

[hifi_dave]

To my ears the current Micro 25RS and the 7R monos are the best sounding amps that Glenn Croft has ever made.

Having said that, I have a soft spot for the original Micro which sold for £150 at the time. This was a giant killer and so well behaved. We used to demo it against some megabuck US made amps we stocked at the time. With eyes closed, the Micro was a no-brainer and we sold heaps of them, many with re-furbed Leak Stereo 20's at £350 for the pair.

Them were the days...:wheniwasaboy:

[jon1]

To my ears the current Micro 25RS and the 7R monos are the best sounding amps that Glenn Croft has ever made.






+1



jon

[Marco]

I have much more experience of using Croft preamps than I do of using their power amps. In terms of the latter, Glenn certainly executes the hybrid thing with a deftness of touch, lacking in examples I've heard of such from other manufacturers, eking out more 'musicality' from his designs in the process. However, ultimately I do prefer true all-valve power amps, done superbly well, such as is the case with my TD Copper amp.

As for Croft preamps, try and get to listen to Glenn's older designs, which use the octal 6SL7 type valves (such as the Charisma) and this Epoch on eBay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-Croft-Epoch-V-stereo-tube-pre-amp-preamp-/110867873190?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item19d03d7da6

Those, IMO, have a more effortlessly musical quality, than the (still excellent) current range, which use ECC83s, and respond superbly to tweaking (and I know how you love some primo tweakage! :eyebrows:). If you've listened to 6SL7s and ECC83s, in any application, you'll know just how different they sound. The bigger valves give the superb built-in phono stage in Charismas and Epochs some pretty special sonic qualities too, particularly if the best quality NOS valves are used.

I've put my highly-modded Charisma-X up against some pretty serious preamps, and I wouldn't swap it for anything else that I've heard so far! :cool:

Marco.

[MartinT]

Many years ago I went with a friend to Grahams Hi-Fi with his Croft Micro. We demo'd it against a Naim preamp and the Croft killed it. Dead. The Grahams salesman just wouldn't have it. Last time I ever went there.

[DSJR]

I've posted before on how Grahams is. They spend a long time listening and researching what they feel they can sell, but then their collective minds close up tight and they become the utterly devoted but selectively narrow dealer that they are. A far cry from the Jimmy Hughes era of the mid 70's although they were working on it back then :)

In fairness to them, they always seem to take the customer's side where after sales service is concerned and, if you go with their flow, you'll be well looked after.

[Macca]

The only Croft combo I have heard was the micro basic and 7 power amp so not really qualified to answer the OPs question - however I think the micro basic should go down as one of the greatest pre-amps of all time - The combination of very low price and very high performance is pretty much unique.

[Marco]

I've posted before on how Grahams is. They spend a long time listening and researching what they feel they can sell, but then their collective minds close up tight and they become the utterly devoted but selectively narrow dealer that they are.

What an utterly ridiculous and narrow-minded business model! :doh: :rolleyes:

I really can't stand the attitude of selling people what YOU think they should HAVE (based on limited and prejudiced criteria), rather than what customers actually WANT. Thank goodness I've not been near one of those types of places in years, as it they tried that pish with me, they'd well and truly get their 'arse felt', as they say in Glasgow!

It's rare that I use dealers these days, but when I do, I choose ones which are in tune with MY requirements (and fortunately there are a few good ones around), rather than those who attempt to brainwash you into complying with their blinkered bullshit!! :nono:

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

What an utterly ridiculous and narrow-minded business model! :doh: :rolleyes:

I really can't stand the attitude of selling people what YOU think they should HAVE (based on limited and prejudiced criteria), rather than what customers actually WANT. Thank goodness I've not been near one of those types of places in years, as it they tried that pish with me, they'd well and truly get their 'arse felt', as they say in Glasgow!

It's rare that I use dealers these days, but when I do, I choose ones which are in tune with MY requirements (and fortunately there are a few good ones around), rather than those who attempt to brainwash you into complying with their blinkered bullshit!! :nono:

Marco.

Grahams are one of the largest and most successful independant dealers in the country and all done without advertising.

Wouldn't be for me but they must be doing something right.

[DSJR]

I totally agree Marco, but that's the way they've been for decades now and for a very long time, they were at the top of the Linn/Naim/Rega sales charts, and probably similar today for all I know.

A chap I know, who was a customer of theirs in his rather vulnerable younger days, was "persuaded" that his Tannoy Berkeleys weren't good enough (don't remember the amp he used) and that Isobariks were "the one and true way!" He went the whole thing and ended up with an active 'brik system. Rather than get a better sound, it actually got worse with each "upgrade" (it would in the CB Naim days of the early 80's I think as the amps went harsh and the speakers increasingly suffered badly thanks to KEF having to change the mid driver - this before the radical re-jig of the briks in the late 80's)

These days, thirty odd years on, the Linn naim system went years ago and he looks back with great fondness to the Tannoys he parted with back then. A a Pro user, his needs are slightly different but last I heard, he's having a look at a sympathetic "domestic vintage" system and we'll see where he goes with this ideal...

[Marco]

Grahams are one of the largest and most successful independant dealers in the country and all done without advertising.

Wouldn't be for me but they must be doing something right.


They're in London, Dave, and so have a large captive audience to sell to. That'll certainly help. No doubt that their business model works, as it's been very carefully 'crafted', but it's not one I admire or would support. They're also big on the Linn/Naim thing, and so will largely be catering for 'sheep', i.e. simply supplying a demand.

However, I'm only commenting on what Dave R said, which if typical of the type of service Grahams offers is, IMO, a disgrace. That tactic certainly wouldn't work with me! I guess it depends on how much of a free-thinker you are, how much experience you have, and how willing you are to trust your ears, rather than those of the dealer ;)

Also, and this is crucial, most people (understandably) go into a dealer's shop seeking 'expert advice', simply because they don't know much about hi-fi and/or know exactly what they want, and so are there either to be 'fleeced', as Dave outlined, or given good advice by a dealer who's in business to put the needs of the customer FIRST, before what's best for his profit margins...

If a customer is looked after properly, then the former will automatically look after the latter, without customers having to be 'guided' by the dealer into buying what he considers best serves the success of the latter, if you see what I mean?

However, I'm not most people. I use dealers simply to supply whatever it is I'm looking for, rather than them telling me what it is that I should have, which if what Dave R said is true, is the antithesis of the service offered by Grahams. Furthermore, if I booked a demo, I would buy whatever it was that I considered was best, not what the dealer did, simply because I have the gumption to trust my own ears and the confidence to know exactly what it is that I want!

In that respect, you and I would get on fine, as I admire your knowledgeable but 'laid back' attitude, and your willingness to always put the customer first :)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

Marco, many thanks for the kind words.

I'm not endorsing the way Grahams works, it's entirely alien to me but they are very successful at it. During the time they have been in existence, numerous other Hi-Fi shops in London have come and gone, not being able to make it pay, even though they had wonderful showrooms and oodles of stock.

Maybe Grahams is like going into a BMW or Mercedes showroom ? The customer knows what he he/she wants and goes in there to get it.

I don't work that way, it's more like having a mate over to listen to music and chat over a cup or two of tea. Maybe that's why I've never made a fortune out of selling Hi-Fi...:lol:

[MartinT]

Back to the subject. I have an ultra-rare Croft SIP (Stereo Integrated Preamp) with the optional moving coil stage (yes, really, despite Glenn disliking them). Serial no. 10080. It is in brown hammer finish and there seems to be very little info on the net about them.

I'm going to clean it up and put it up for sale soon as it sounded pretty damned good in its day.

[worrasf]

If you could choose just one croft pre and power amp combo of all time which would it be?

Andy

For VFM the Vitale preamp takes some beating - used one for ages before finally moving up to the 25R which I have to say is sublime. I briefly had and EAR preamp (sorry can't remember the model but was so disappointed I sent it back - the Vitale was so much more to my liking. I know the consensus (and Glenn's view) is that the 7R is the "best" power amp he has made but for my taste I prefer the Series 4s - the 25R/S4s combination IMHO is world-class.
Maybe it's because of the ability to "shape" the sound to your personal preference by valve swapping.

Steve

[IHP]

Took me a long time to come to this conclusion but I prefer the 7 to the 7R. There, said it ! The 7R may be 'better', whatever that means, but the 7 just hits the spot for me. Don't ask me to explain, I can't, it's deep down in there somewhere. The balance of everything is so perfect.

I bet dealers and manufacturers on occasion loathe forums, and fair play to them for this. Apologies Glenn, Dave, but that's the way it is for me. Magical, system synergy, whatever.