View Full Version : My new music server.
brian2957
12-07-2012, 10:00
It never ceases to amaze me how members of this forum are willing to give up their valuable time in order to help another member. Let me explain.
About 3 years ago I gave up on this hobby believing I was getting nowhere after almost 30 years of searching. I was never able to afford the real high end stuff which I aspired to and after many system changes I decided to give up the ghost . I bought a Klipsch Igroove Ipad dock ( which is actually very good IMO ) and a Sony MP4 player. I lived with this for some time until I stumbled upon the Art Of Sound forum last May.
Many of the members were talking about file-based audio . 'Surely you can't get decent sounds from computer 'I thought . However many of the arguments and experiences put forward by members in favour of this medium were quite compelling . I have to say at this stage that I didn't know ( and still don't know ) much about computers.
So I decided to investigate further. I decided to 'dip my toe' in the water so to speak and went on to Ebay and purchased a second hand Dell laptop and a little Hot Audio DAC . I have to mention here that I kept my NVA amp and cables as they have provided me with sterling service over the years . (I put them in the loft )
I also bought a pair of Royd A7 speakers . Special mention must go to Mark (Reid Malenphant ) who talked me through upgrading the crossovers on these speakers , turning a good pair of standmounts into an excellent pair.When I got this little system up and running I couldn't believe how good it sounded . With the help of John (Welder) and Tim on AOS I was to achieve even better results .
To cut to the chase several more upgrades were to provide me with a system which has given me with much listening pleasure . However a couple of months ago I was selling something on the forum and was contacted by Gary ( Gazjam ) who wanted to buy my item . We discovered that we lived quite close to each other , so Gary came to mine to pick up the item . We got talking about our systems and the result was Gary offered to build me a music server to my specifications ( actually they were his as I don't have a bliddy clue ) with Windows 7 and JRiver media player included. Well Gary delivered the server the other day and set it up for me . Quite frankly I couldn't believe what I was hearing . This is easily the best system I have ever owned . My new system sounds fantastic IMHO and I believe that as it settles down it will improve even more . I have had a couple of late nights already rediscovering my music collection. Fantastic !
If you are contemplating going down the file-based audio route my suggestion would be to go for it. The rewards are well worth the effort IMO and there are plenty of people on AOS who are more than willing to give up their valuable time to help. If I haven't mentioned your name or the help you provided me with please forgive me as my memory isn't what it used to be.
Below a few pictures of my new server and system with thanks to all who helped me get to where I am today ,especially Gazjam who has provided me with so much help and advice.
Ali Tait
12-07-2012, 11:34
Nice one Brian, glad it's hitting the spot. Is it portable? Be interesting to compare to the TFS when I get it.
Mark Grant
12-07-2012, 11:53
with Windows 7 and JRiver media player included. Quite frankly I couldn't believe what I was hearing . This is easily the best system I have ever owned
Good result and its good that Gary has helped so much:)
Jriver is great, easy to use and does not cost much.
http://www.jriver.com/
When Gary reads this, is this the case from novatech ?
http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/components/cases/mediacentrecases/nov-vision.html that looks great for £50.
Hi Brian,
A heartwarming tale, so thanks for sharing! :)
Well done to Gaz, and everyone else who helped. I hope that you continue to enjoy the choons, through your streaming set-up, for many years to come.
I've moved this to Strokes of Genius, as it's like a little mini-review of your experiences - enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
brian2957
12-07-2012, 14:09
Thanks Marco , AOS has certainly enhanced my listening experience no end.
brian2957
12-07-2012, 14:20
Nice one Brian, glad it's hitting the spot. Is it portable? Be interesting to compare to the TFS when I get it.
Hi Ali , I don't see any problems bringing the server to yours .Look forward to it.
Good result and its good that Gary has helped so much:)
Jriver is great, easy to use and does not cost much.
http://www.jriver.com/
When Gary reads this, is this the case from novatech ?
http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/components/cases/mediacentrecases/nov-vision.html that looks great for £50.
Its always good to help out. :)
Yeah Mark, thats the one.
Cracking case much better in the "metal" than the pics.
Honestly, its like a high end CD player, 5mm Brushed aluminium front panel brushed metal case..looks the biz.
Very easy to build the computer too using this case.
For a music server/HTPC its ideal.
Looks great on your rack and runs very quiet.
Windows 7/Jriver playing lossless files via USB into a SPDIF converter/Dac sounds fantastic.
I build a server for myself recently with Win7/Jriver and compared to the Sb Touch I owned previously its a better sounding digital source.
Sounds better, better interface and much easier to access all your music.
As Brian says, anyone thinking of going down the streamed audio route should go for it, you wont look back.
Did I mention how cool Jriver is? :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHZhOglOymk
What i like about it is that it has a lot of Audiophile settings, memory play, Winaspi Event Style output, Upsampling...you name it.
It can play 24/384 if your dac is up to it.
The software is constantly being updated and has a fantastic User forum where the creators of Jriver regularly pitch in with their expertise.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php
I use JRiver to play movies and view pictures too - cool!
*EDIT* Anyone looking for specifics of the PC build feel free to drop me a PM
It never ceases to amaze me how members of this forum are willing to give up their valuable time in order to help another member. Let me explain.
About 3 years ago I gave up on this hobby believing I was getting nowhere after almost 30 years of searching. I was never able to afford the real high end stuff which I aspired to and after many system changes I decided to give up the ghost . I bought a Klipsch Igroove Ipad dock ( which is actually very good IMO ) and a Sony MP4 player. I lived with this for some time until I stumbled upon the Art Of Sound forum last May.
Many of the members were talking about file-based audio . 'Surely you can't get decent sounds from computer 'I thought . However many of the arguments and experiences put forward by members in favour of this medium were quite compelling . I have to say at this stage that I didn't know ( and still don't know ) much about computers.
So I decided to investigate further. I decided to 'dip my toe' in the water so to speak and went on to Ebay and purchased a second hand Dell laptop and a little Hot Audio DAC . I have to mention here that I kept my NVA amp and cables as they have provided me with sterling service over the years . (I put them in the loft )
I also bought a pair of Royd A7 speakers . Special mention must go to Mark (Reid Malenphant ) who talked me through upgrading the crossovers on these speakers , turning a good pair of standmounts into an excellent pair.When I got this little system up and running I couldn't believe how good it sounded . With the help of John (Welder) and Tim on AOS I was to achieve even better results .
To cut to the chase several more upgrades were to provide me with a system which has given me with much listening pleasure . However a couple of months ago I was selling something on the forum and was contacted by Gary ( Gazjam ) who wanted to buy my item . We discovered that we lived quite close to each other , so Gary came to mine to pick up the item . We got talking about our systems and the result was Gary offered to build me a music server to my specifications ( actually they were his as I don't have a bliddy clue ) with Windows 7 and JRiver media player included. Well Gary delivered the server the other day and set it up for me . Quite frankly I couldn't believe what I was hearing . This is easily the best system I have ever owned . My new system sounds fantastic IMHO and I believe that as it settles down it will improve even more . I have had a couple of late nights already rediscovering my music collection. Fantastic !
If you are contemplating going down the file-based audio route my suggestion would be to go for it. The rewards are well worth the effort IMO and there are plenty of people on AOS who are more than willing to give up their valuable time to help. If I haven't mentioned your name or the help you provided me with please forgive me as my memory isn't what it used to be.
Below a few pictures of my new server and system with thanks to all who helped me get to where I am today ,especially Gazjam who has provided me with so much help and advice.
your Welcome! :)
Nice writeup Brian, wish you many years of enjoyment mate.
bobbasrah
12-07-2012, 16:01
your Welcome! :)
Nice writeup Brian, wish you many years of enjoyment mate.
As this will probably be read by quite a few folks contemplating this route Gary, would it be possible to post up the parts used as a example???.:D
As to the build Brian, looks good and suits the gear... Glad you finally got it sorted out. See told you it was easy.... as long as you know a lad in the Hamilton area...;) (Ok Gary, other side of the 74 :rolleyes:).....
Enjoy the music.....:cool:
brian2957
12-07-2012, 16:05
your Welcome! :)
Nice writeup Brian, wish you many years of enjoyment mate.
Thanks Gary , for all your help mate.:)
brian2957
12-07-2012, 16:08
As this will probably be read by quite a few folks contemplating this route Gary, would it be possible to post up the parts used as a example???.:D
As to the build Brian, looks good and suits the gear... Glad you finally got it sorted out. See told you it was easy.... as long as you know a lad in the Hamilton area...;) (Ok Gary, other side of the 74 :rolleyes:).....
Enjoy the music.....:cool:
Aye mate , it's easy as long as you know somebody who knows what they're doing. I'm listening to my system just now and the wife keeps asking me why I'm grinning like a Cheshire cat :)
Yay! I’m glad you’re sorted now Brian and even more pleased that apparently you think the hassle has been worth the trouble.
@Garry.
Interesting that you find a purpose built server better than the Touch as it pretty much reflects my findings.
I know you hate it, but Linux is the next step.
I've just replaced my USB server sockets with locking Neutric DIN sockets on my server having finally got sick of poor connections and accidentally yanking the bloody plugs out.
It also gives you the option of using the fifth pin to run a continuous shield from source to Dac.
brian2957
12-07-2012, 17:16
Aye John , sometimes I'm a bit of a ' doubting Thomas ' . I have to say ,however , that the server Gary has built for me has been a bit of a revelation. I agree with you on the connector/plug issue also . I now use WBT connectors on all my cables .
Linux , never say never John .;)
Thanks Marco , AOS has certainly enhanced my listening experience no end.
Nice one, dude. That's precisely why we do what we do. It's always nice to hear when we achieve our aim and someone's enjoyment of their favourite music is subsequently improved :)
Marco.
Really pleased to hear it has all worked out Brian and that the perseverance has paid off :)
It does take an open mind to accept that you really can get quality audio from a computer, but more and more folk are learning that you really can, once you commit to investing a little time and effort. Having a dedicated player is certainly the way forward and I love the Windows 7/JRiver combo as well (that's what I currently have). I you fancy experimenting with drives, I found that installing an SSD and moving the music 'off board' made a difference too.
Anyway, glad you are enjoying file based audio and glad to have helped in a small way too - as Marco says, that's what AoS excels at. My system has improved immensely since joining as has my enjoyment of music. I also seem to have bought a not insignificant number of CD's since joining too :eek:
brian2957
12-07-2012, 20:53
Hi Tim , my CDs seem to be multiplying too :eyebrows: The beauty of having a computer expert on your side has become evident in the design of my server . Gary insisted that I use a SSD for the server but house my music files on an external drive. So this is what has happened . Perhaps that is why it sounds so good .Thanks for taking an interest once again and thanks for the advice.
Gary insisted that I use a SSD for the server but house my music files on an external drive.
That was very good advice ;)
Building the server my main aim was best audio performance for the lowest cost, but I didnt want to overlook any potential "foo" improvements that might actually work!
I recently had the surprise of hearing the improvements better usb cables can make to usb audio (yes...really :-)) so had an open mind.
One thing I tried was installing JPlay along with JRiver, which according to those who swear by it say it elevates pc audio to the "as good as it gets" stage.
Cynical?
So was I so the 30 day trial got installed.
It does something to the sound, but I preferred Jriver on its own.
The creators if Jriver in fact say it sounds better on its own and I agree.
Jplay shuts down background window services leaving only audio related ones, but it leaves you unable to even access your computer when listening to music.
And it costs £100.
http://www.windowsxlive.net/fidelizer
Use a free alternative Fidelizer instead which does the same job in Windows, but actually improves the sound AND lets you browse albumart, queue up your next playlist, whatever.
The combination of Jriver and Fidelizer is hard to beat imho.
Ali Tait
14-07-2012, 09:45
Gaz, Brian,
Well the garage will be keeping the car for yet another week ( that's 5 weeks now..) which means I don't have to pay for it yet, so the TFS will be here next week. I won't be home until Friday, so will get it set up then. Fancy coming over on Saturday?
Anyone else that would like to come are welcome.
Yes the server really looks the part, are you still using it with the hot audio USB dac? I use one of these on my desktop PC with an old A400 and Ditton 15s... sounds pretty good to me!
I'd also be interested to see a parts/build list for the server as I've built a few PCs in the past but like the form factor and primary audio function of this.
Great thread.
I'm just about to build a new one Richard (version 3.0) so I'll post a parts list and what I did - it will be a Windows 7/JRiver based audio player/streamer (its not really a server if the audio is located eleswhere ;))
brian2957
14-07-2012, 14:58
Gaz, Brian,
Well the garage will be keeping the car for yet another week ( that's 5 weeks now..) which means I don't have to pay for it yet, so the TFS will be here next week. I won't be home until Friday, so will get it set up then. Fancy coming over on Saturday?
Anyone else that would like to come are welcome.
I would love to mate .Unfortunately I would probably not be able to make Saturday . I'm at work just now so can't use the PM facility . I will PM you as soon as I can . Maybe another day soon
brian2957
14-07-2012, 15:02
Hi Richard , I'm currently using a modified Caiman SEG , I sold the little Hot Audio DAC on . If you want a parts list you would have to contact Gary (Gazjam ) on this forum . All the credit for this fantastic server must go to him I'm afraid . :)
Parts List:
(Brian had a 1TB usb drive for music storage already)
Motherboard:
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MB-386-GI&tool=3
CPU
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CP-386-IN
HDMI DVI Adapter
http://www.amazon.co.uk/DVI-D-Male-Female-Adapter-Converter/dp/B003JHSNYG/ref=sr_1_7?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1340376095&sr=1-7
Case
http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/components/cases/mediacentrecases/Novatech/NOV-VISION.html?#utm_source=affiliatewindow&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=Pricesavvy
SSD
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=HD-145-SA&tool=3
Ram
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MY-104-KS&tool=3
DVD Writer
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CD-126-SA&tool=3
TOTAL COST ABOUT £250
(excluding Windows and Jriver)
Hi Gaz,
Is the plan for Ali and you to compare that to the TFS? :)
Marco.
bobbasrah
14-07-2012, 18:18
Parts List:
(Brian had a 1TB usb drive for music storage already)
Motherboard:
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MB-386-GI&tool=3
CPU
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CP-386-IN
HDMI DVI Adapter
http://www.amazon.co.uk/DVI-D-Male-Female-Adapter-Converter/dp/B003JHSNYG/ref=sr_1_7?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1340376095&sr=1-7
Case
http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/components/cases/mediacentrecases/Novatech/NOV-VISION.html?#utm_source=affiliatewindow&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=Pricesavvy
SSD
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=HD-145-SA&tool=3
Ram
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MY-104-KS&tool=3
DVD Writer
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=CD-126-SA&tool=3
TOTAL COST ABOUT £250
(excluding Windows and Jriver)
Cheers Gary, looks good and abviously working to the customer's satisfaction. :eek:
What was the PSU if you don't mind me asking? :)
I get no noise coming through from my own Gigabyte board with a Nexus PSU.
I switched it with the old desktop Corsiar over a month ago JFS&G and heard no difference at all via the DAC. Ok, I have a transluscent system rather than transparent, but well chuffed....;)
What was the PSU if you don't mind me asking?
The PSU is built into the case - 250W Micro-ATX
Ali Tait
15-07-2012, 11:34
Hi Gaz,
Is the plan for Ali and you to compare that to the TFS? :)
Marco.
I have asked Brian if he would bring his server with him, hopefully we can arrange a suitable date for all soon.
yup, bog standard atx power supply :)
Getting the basics right, theres more milage IMO getting the software side sorted (hence tweaked Jriver/Fidelizer/Win7 on SSD)
For the price paid (and for considerably more) its a fantastic digital source.
Compared it to modded SB touch with linear PSU and it sounded better.
As with most stuff, if you chuck money at it there's always room for some improvement, but best bang for buck was what I was going for.
brian2957
15-07-2012, 12:16
I have asked Brian if he would bring his server with him, hopefully we can arrange a suitable date for all soon.
Excellent mate . I'll talk to Gary and get back yo you .
brian2957
15-07-2012, 12:17
yup, bog standard atx power supply. :)
At this level theres more milage IMO getting the software side right (hence tweaked Jriver/Fidelizer/Win7 on SSD)
For the price paid its a fantastic digital source.
As with most stuff, if you chuck money at it there's always room for some improvement, but best bang for buck was what I was going for.
I've got a funny feeling that this server is going to last me for a while.
Looks great Brian.
A couple of questions:
Does it stay on or do you shut it down/standby/sleep when not in use?
How do you control it? Remote, iPad? how quiet is it with supplied PSU? I have a small (by today's standards) 37inch TV - do you think the JRiver user interface would be visible/useable on such a set?
Could be just what I'm looking for,
brian2957
17-07-2012, 20:38
Hi Martin , I close it down and unplug it when not in use . However as it uses a SSD I can't see a problem leaving it on all the time . I would ask Gary for further advice on this .
This unit runs very quietly however I believe that an even quieter fan can be had for a little extra .Also the PSU can be upgraded cheaply I believe . Again Gary's your man for advice on this.
The TV you see at the beginning of this post is a Panasonic 37 inch Plasma . My eyesight isn't the greatest and it's plenty big for me . I can enlarge the script on the page by scrolling in and out on the mousepad and on JRiver itself I can enlarge the interface.
I use a wireless keyboard / mousepad to control the server .This is one Gary suggested and it works very well.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOGITECH-K400-WIRELESS-TOUCH-KEYBOARD-CORDLESS-WITH-TOUCHPAD-/320929140291?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_Ke yboardsMice&hash=item4ab8de0e43
However I know Gary uses an android phone to control his also. I would check with him again to explore the possibilities .
As I have said earlier I'm not very good with computers , but this is very easy to use . Hope this helps :D
I control my music server remotely using Radmin software, I know other folk use Windows Remote Desktop or apps like Gizmo and JRemote. Mine is headless (no screen attached) and I also don't have anything else plugged in like a mouse or keyboard and just about every driver and service is shut down. The only connections are the off-board passive PSU, an ethernet cable and USB cable to the DAC.
Mine is totally silent as the CPU is passively cooled - so no moving parts at all in the case, I personally wouldn't suffer a fan, but I'm an anal fusspot ;)
I shut mine down after each session too as I'm very conscious about power usage.
http://www.radmin.com/products/radmin/
http://www.jremote.net/
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Gizmo
brian2957
17-07-2012, 21:18
Hi Tim , hope you are well . This is outa my league I'm afraid .Maybe one day :D
This is outa my league I'm afraid
Nah, course its not Brian..... just think where you were 6 months ago and where you are now ;)
Small steps lead to giant leaps....
brian2957
17-07-2012, 21:30
You are of course correct . I've come a long way partly due to encouragement from your good self and John .If I ever meet you at any of the shows the :cool: are on me.
Passive can be pricey...
and I always try to stick to the K.I.S.S theory, especially where it wont impact sound quality ;)
One thing I had concerns about Brian was your server being a bit noisy due to the PSU fan?
Wasn't a problem happy to say, we couldn't hear it from a couple of feet away never mind from your sofa.
No point overcomplicating things imo, different setups have different requirements of course, so different strokes for different folks.
Enjoy what you have, you'd need to chuck a fair amount of money to get noticeably better!
(and not by changing the server, only small improvements there)
Did you get a chance to plug the Mark Grant power cord in the server yet Brian?
Just curious, not sure if it will make a difference but I think it might.
I control my music server remotely using Radmin software, I know other folk use Windows Remote Desktop or apps like Gizmo and JRemote. Mine is headless (no screen attached) and I also don't have anything else plugged in like a mouse or keyboard and just about every driver and service is shut down. The only connections are the off-board passive PSU, an ethernet cable and USB cable to the DAC.
Mine is totally silent as the CPU is passively cooled - so no moving parts at all in the case, I personally wouldn't suffer a fan, but I'm an anal fusspot ;)
I shut mine down after each session too as I'm very conscious about power usage.
http://www.radmin.com/products/radmin/
http://www.jremote.net/
http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Gizmo
Hi Tim,
I'd be interested to see what hardware you are using and what the premium might be over the Novatech case.
Do you use JRiver too?
Cheers,
Hi Martin , I close it down and unplug it when not in use . However as it uses a SSD I can't see a problem leaving it on all the time . I would ask Gary for further advice on this .
This unit runs very quietly however I believe that an even quieter fan can be had for a little extra .Also the PSU can be upgraded cheaply I believe . Again Gary's your man for advice on this.
The TV you see at the beginning of this post is a Panasonic 37 inch Plasma . My eyesight isn't the greatest and it's plenty big for me . I can enlarge the script on the page by scrolling in and out on the mousepad and on JRiver itself I can enlarge the interface.
I use a wireless keyboard / mousepad to control the server .This is one Gary suggested and it works very well.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LOGITECH-K400-WIRELESS-TOUCH-KEYBOARD-CORDLESS-WITH-TOUCHPAD-/320929140291?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_Ke yboardsMice&hash=item4ab8de0e43
However I know Gary uses an android phone to control his also. I would check with him again to explore the possibilities .
As I have said earlier I'm not very good with computers , but this is very easy to use . Hope this helps :D
Thanks Brian and Gary,
When you boot up, does it go straight to JRiver or do you need to launch it manually from the windows desktop?
It would be good if windows was invisible IMHO.
Cheers,
bobbasrah
18-07-2012, 12:58
Passive can be pricey...
and I always try to stick to the K.I.S.S theory, especially where it wont impact sound quality ;)
One thing I had concerns about Brian was your server being a bit noisy due to the PSU fan?
Wasn't a problem happy to say, we couldn't hear it from a couple of feet away never mind from your sofa.
No point overcomplicating things imo, different setups have different requirements of course, so different strokes for different folks.
.......
Just to confirm your own observation Gary, there are a lot of very quiet units both in electrical and noise terms these days.... Add in the better ventilation design of modern htpc cases, and the heat load is substantially reduced on the psu also.
A tip worth passing on is where the psu fan is redundant for compartment cooling, and the case design permits, the PSU can be flipped it over to draw air from the side and exhaust out the back. I can just see the blades turn on this one but no sound whatever at 500mm.
I can only just hear the big fans on my htpc (2 case plus CPU) directly before they nick a piece out of my ear..... No earring thank god.. Quiet enough methinks
brian2957
18-07-2012, 13:09
Thanks Brian and Gary,
When you boot up, does it go straight to JRiver or do you need to launch it manually from the windows desktop?
It would be good if windows was invisible IMHO.
Cheers,
On mine I have to launch it manually from the windows desktop Martin . I can move between the TV and server by switching HDMI inouts on the TV via the remote.
brian2957
18-07-2012, 13:11
Passive can be pricey...
and I always try to stick to the K.I.S.S theory, especially where it wont impact sound quality ;)
One thing I had concerns about Brian was your server being a bit noisy due to the PSU fan?
Wasn't a problem happy to say, we couldn't hear it from a couple of feet away never mind from your sofa.
No point overcomplicating things imo, different setups have different requirements of course, so different strokes for different folks.
Enjoy what you have, you'd need to chuck a fair amount of money to get noticeably better!
(and not by changing the server, only small improvements there)
Did you get a chance to plug the Mark Grant power cord in the server yet Brian?
Just curious, not sure if it will make a difference but I think it might.
Yes mate server is very quiete and very musical . I decided to live with the 16-core silver cable for a couple of weeks and then try the Mark Grant . I'll get back to you on that one.
Hi Tim,
I'd be interested to see what hardware you are using and what the premium might be over the Novatech case.
Do you use JRiver too?
Presently I am using this as my file based audio player;
Current build:
Wesena Mini ITX2 Aluminium Case (black) http://www.wesena.co.uk/product.php/5/2/itx2 This is stripped out to just a bare case, no top tray or fan.
Asus AT510NT-i Mini-ITX motherboard with D525 1.8 GHz Intel Atom dual-Core CPU and NVIDIA® ION™ GPU
4GB Crucial (2x2GB) 1066MHz/DDR3 RAM PC3-8500
64GB Kingston V100 SSD
12v DC 120w silent PicoPSU http://linitx.com/product/12635
System Software:
Ripping to FLAC by EAC v0.99 (main PC only, not installed on the server)
Windows 7 Pro x64
JRiver Media Center 17.0.180
Radmin Server v3.4 on player & Radmin Viewer on remote controllers, currently a desktop PC or a laptop - in the future this will be a tablet.
Spotify Premium
That's it, the player/server has no mouse, keyboard, monitor, optical drive or additional software. It boots straight to JRiver in seconds, FLAC audio files are accessed via a NAS. Windows 7 is stripped right back to a very small footprint, with nothing except whats required to run JRiver and Spotify - under 700MB. There are no moving parts whatsoever and I picked the case for its solid build quality and also because it cosmetically sits well with the Rega amp and DAC. It won't suit all as it's Mini-ITX and limits you to what hard drive you can fit, but for me its perfect and I don't need an optical drive - all it does is play audio files. Again, this won't suit all especially if you want to use it as an HTPC.
The next unit I build will be based on an Intel DN2800MT Mini-ITX motherboard with an mSATA SSD plugged directly into the board. It is also a passive board and with 2GB RAM it uses less than 10 watts (my current configuration uses 45W). It has 2 high current USB ports and will be powered by a linear off board PSU. I intend on trying Mark Grants Linear power supply and Sbooster.
I know others go different routes, but for me totally silent and no moving parts, nothing attached or running that isn't essential and low power usage are the goals - as well as sounding darned good obviously ;)
I have tried all the popular player software (foobar, JPlay, media monkey, winamp and JRiver free) but settled on JRiver 17 for both its sound and excellent functionality. I also prefer Windows 7 to XP.
brian2957
18-07-2012, 20:25
Presently I am using this as my file based audio player;
Current build:
Wesena Mini ITX2 Aluminium Case (black) http://www.wesena.co.uk/product.php/5/2/itx2 This is stripped out to just a bare case, no top tray, fan or USB ports.
Asus AT510NT-i Mini-ITX motherboard with D525 1.8 GHz Intel Atom dual-Core CPU and NVIDIA® ION™ GPU
4GB Crucial (2x2GB) 1066MHz/DDR3 RAM PC3-8500
64GB Kingston V100 SSD
12v DC 120w silent PicoPSU http://linitx.com/product/12635
System Software:
Ripping to FLAC by EAC v0.99 (main PC only, not installed on the server)
Windows 7 Pro x64
JRiver Media Center 17.0.180
Radmin Server v3.4 on player & Radmin Viewer on remote controllers, currently a desktop PC or a laptop - in the future this will be a tablet.
Spotify Premium
That's it, the player/server has no mouse, keyboard, monitor, optical drive or additional software. It boots straight to JRiver as well in seconds, FLAC audio files are accessed via a NAS. Windows 7 is stripped right back to all I need to run JRiver, there are no moving parts whatsoever and I picked the case for its solid build quality and also because it cosmetically sits well with the Rega amp and DAC. It won't suit all as it's Mini-ITX and limits you to what hard drive you can fit, but for me its perfect and I don't need an optical drive - all it does is play audio files. Again, this won't suit all especially if you want to use it as an HTPC.
The next unit I build will be based on an Intel DN2800MT Mini-ITX motherboard with an mSATA SSD plugged directly into the board. It is also a passive board and with 2GB RAM it uses less than 10 watts. It has 2 high current USB ports and will be powered by a linear off board PSU. I intend on trying Mark Grants Linear power supply and Sbooster.
I know others go different routes, but for me totally silent and no moving parts, nothing attached or running that isn't essential and low power usage are the goals - as well as sounding darned good obviously ;)
I have tried all the popular player software (foobar, JPlay, media monkey, winamp and JRiver free) but settled on JRiver 17 for both its sound and excellent functionality. I also prefer Windows 7 to XP.
Looks the biz Tim .I was using XP / Foobar /Asio before Gary built this server for me and can testiy to the sound improvements to be had using Windows 7 / Jriver . I use the Mark Grant PSU /SBooster on my Caiman and it is also very good. Incidentally I was using an expensive silver mains cable with the server and just out of curiosity I substituted this with a Mark Grant power cable just a couple of hours ago . I have to say that the MG cable was a big improvement on the silver cable . Strange I know , but that's how it was. Please keep us posted regarding your new server build .:)
This is a little out of date now, which is why I removed it from my signature, but some of the information might still be of use to those interested in building their own system?
Music Server (http://www.bluedive.co.uk/musicserver/index.htm)
brian2957
18-07-2012, 20:47
I printed this off mate and dig it out every so often and have a read . Very informative IMO . Good of you to take the trouble to produce something like this.
This is a little out of date now, which is why I removed it from my signature, but some of the information might still be of use to those interested in building their own system?
Music Server (http://www.bluedive.co.uk/musicserver/index.htm)
Great info Tim :)
A crackin' read
Thanks Tim, will have a good look at that tomorrow and cost it up.
Ive got an old laptop and several old pcs in the loft, so I might drag one down and load up the jriver trial version tomorrow. Does it run on windows xp?
I like the idea of your itx motherboard with s/Pdif and hdmi outputs. Not the cheapest unit though.
Cheers,
J River Media Center runs just fine on Win XP (and 2000, Vista and of course 7 also)
You also have the opportunity to use J River Media Jukebox which is free even if it does not have the audiophile bells and whistles, like ASIO opportunity.
It does, however have memory playback and that improves audio also.
http://www.jriver.com/mj/
Regards /Mike
PS havent read all of the thread but remote control using Rivermote is recommended if you own an iThingy
J River Media Center runs just fine on Win XP (and 2000, Vista and of course 7 also)
You also have the opportunity to use J River Media Jukebox which is free even if it does not have the audiophile bells and whistles, like ASIO opportunity.
It does, however have memory playback and that improves audio also.
http://www.jriver.com/mj/
Regards /Mike
PS havent read all of the thread but remote control using Rivermote is recommended if you own an iThingy
Hi Mike - do you use Rivermote? I've been put off it as apparently according to the Apple Store customer reviews you can only access playlists with it - not Artist/Album information - which as I don't use playlists, would mean all I would use it for would be Play/Pause...
I've not yet upgraded to Media Center as I find Media Jukebox does all I need (I'm using Kernell Streaming to a Hiface USB-SPDIF convertor no problems) although I may well buy it when I build my next music machine - it looks like you can use it on many different devices with the single licence. (Which is important for me as I have 4 laptops with Media Jukebox running.)
Oh, and sorry for the thread drift Brian... :doh:
Looks like Gaz has sorted you a great little server there. :)
brian2957
19-07-2012, 08:57
Yes he has . My household duties have taken a hit this week , I can't drag myself away from it :doh:
Just caught up on this thread and reading with interest, Thanks Gary and Brian for the info re parts and software.:cool:
@Alex_UK
Apologies, it is not Rivermote, it is My River i use and belive it to be quite good!
I have had J River installed on up to 5 machines at one single time, but nowadays i mostly use Mac so i cannot tell if things have changed with JRMC 17. You can request a new license file for new installs or reinstalls up to 10 times per year i think. This file is valid for 14 days, and you may move it to other computers for licensig there too.
Kernel-Streamin huh? You must be using the good old J River MediaJukebox 12where you had audio output choice (incl ASIO) but not "Play from memory" as is available today in version 14.
To bad really, as i personally like Jukebox better where Media Center can be a bit of "bloat-ware" with all the doodat's available.
Regards /Mike
Apologies, it is not Rivermote, it is My River i use and belive it to be quite good!
Ah - that looks much better! :)
Thanks for the licence info. I think I'll take the plunge soon!
Kernel-Streamin huh? You must be using the good old J River MediaJukebox 12where you had audio output choice (incl ASIO) but not "Play from memory" as is available today in version 14.
Well, I think I'm using Kernel-Streamig - perhaps not! I'll have to check! Certainly play from memory (and I'm on 14.)
brian2957
19-07-2012, 09:54
Just caught up on this thread and reading with interest, Thanks Gary and Brian for the info re parts and software.:cool:
Hi Richard , glad you're getting something out of this. So am I :) . Just out of interest I have heard this new server through the Rega DAC , Rega Brio R and RS3 speakers ( MG G2000HD i/cs and Mogami 2972 speaker cable) . Listened for around 6 hours and it sounded very good indeed.
Ali Tait
19-07-2012, 10:10
If I may hijack a little, is my river the best ipad app for jriver then? I will need to install something ready for tomorrow when I unpack the TFS.
My River looks the business, shame my ITouch is 2nd generation..cant run it.
Ah well, Gizmo for my mobile will have to do.
Ipad version looks perfect, everything IPeng does but for JRiver.
brian2957
19-07-2012, 11:08
Hi guys , situation OK at mines . I know it's short notice but are you two still up for visit to listen to the TFS on Saturday .
Hi Richard , glad you're getting something out of this. So am I :) . Just out of interest I have heard this new server through the Rega DAC , Rega Brio R and RS3 speakers ( MG G2000HD i/cs and Mogami 2972 speaker cable) . Listened for around 6 hours and it sounded very good indeed.
Yes I've built a few PCs in the past and reckon a dedicated music server is well within my grasp. For me I'd need to understand what the sq benefits of this approach are rather than spending similar kinds of money on a reasonably priced new laptop/nettop or indeed a mac mini which wouldnt require separate controllers and could also serve a number of other functions with music as the primary function.
At the moment I'm using an old dell laptop basically trimmed down for audio purposes and it sounds pretty good serving up files from a networked drive in another room but I'm still intrigued by the sq possibilities of a dedicated server into the DAC.
Cant do this Saturday Brian , Fi and I are off to a Christening then out for some posh nosh at night.
Sorry bud
If I may hijack a little, is my river the best ipad app for jriver then? I will need to install something ready for tomorrow when I unpack the TFS.
I wouldn't know if it is the best, but it performs good.
The setting up isn't crystal clear, and be a little patient when connecting to your J River install from your portable unit. Once connected it performs almost on par with Apple Remote ;) :eyebrows:
Regards /M
brian2957
19-07-2012, 12:08
Cant do this Saturday Brian , Fi and I are off to a Christening then out for some posh nosh at night.
Sorry bud
OK mate I'll catch up with you . Enjoy your day out:)
brian2957
19-07-2012, 12:11
Yes I've built a few PCs in the past and reckon a dedicated music server is well within my grasp. For me I'd need to understand what the sq benefits of this approach are rather than spending similar kinds of money on a reasonably priced new laptop/nettop or indeed a mac mini which wouldnt require separate controllers and could also serve a number of other functions with music as the primary function.
At the moment I'm using an old dell laptop basically trimmed down for audio purposes and it sounds pretty good serving up files from a networked drive in another room but I'm still intrigued by the sq possibilities of a dedicated server into the DAC.
I was using an old Dell laptop - XP /Foobar /ASIO and it also sounded very good .However the jump to server / Windows 7 / JRiver is IMHO well worth the effort.
Ali Tait
19-07-2012, 15:47
Hi guys , situation OK at mines . I know it's short notice but are you two still up for visit to listen to the TFS on Saturday .
Brian, Gaz,
Ok, if this weekend is no good, let me know when you are both free to come over. Anyone else is welcome too.
brian2957
19-07-2012, 15:50
Thanks Ali , Gary can't make it this weekend either . I'll catch up with you both for a mutually convenient time and date . Enjoy the TFS meantime.:)
Ali Tait
19-07-2012, 16:00
I certainly will!
Ali Tait
19-07-2012, 16:01
I wouldn't know if it is the best, but it performs good.
The setting up isn't crystal clear, and be a little patient when connecting to your J River install from your portable unit. Once connected it performs almost on par with Apple Remote ;) :eyebrows:
Regards /M
Ok, thanks for the info. Anyone tried JRemote?
wee tee cee
19-07-2012, 17:16
I use a dell lap top( i tunes with lossless files)/usb/v-link/co-ax......does the dedicated server make a real improvement?
I hadn't realised you could build a server for reasonable money, so could be tempted.
brian2957
19-07-2012, 17:39
I use a dell lap top( i tunes with lossless files)/usb/v-link/co-ax......does the dedicated server make a real improvement?
I hadn't realised you could build a server for reasonable money, so could be tempted.
Hi Tony , hope you are well .I've never used i tunes so I can't say for sure . I was using the Dell laptop with XP / Foobar /ASIO . The move to the server using Windows 7 and JRiver media player was in my case a big improvement in terms of SQ and functionality . All WAV or FLAC files BTW .Well worth the outlay IMHO . You are more than welcome to come to mine for a look and listen if you want.I live in Cumbernauld.
PS I'm hoping to make the V-Link my next upgrade.
Mark Grant
19-07-2012, 18:37
Mine is totally silent as the CPU is passively cooled - so no moving parts at all in the case, I personally wouldn't suffer a fan, but I'm an anal fusspot ;)
I am the same, I cant stand fan or hard drive noise any more:)
A recent build I did for my wife's office work /accounts PC, totally silent, fast and only uses 25 watts of electricity :)
A huge passive heatsink with mirror finish:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/heatsink-IMG_1105-crop.jpg
----------------
Mounted on the motherboard to give some scale to it:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/heatsink-IMG_1145-crop-.jpg
( I have now replaced the gigabyte board in the picture with an Asus as the Gigabyte had noisy components on the board that where whining when the CPU was idle)
-------------
The CPU is an Intel i3 2125 3.30 GHz with built in Intel HD3000 Graphics which is plenty fast enough.
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/i3-2125-CPU-IMG_1066.jpg
------------------------
Windows experience scores :)
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/i3-2125-Capture.png
--------------
Hard drive is an Intel 520 60GB ssd, not cheap but needed to be the most reliable available for this particular build.
I do like these computer threads :)
wee tee cee
19-07-2012, 18:46
Brian,
If you guys fix a date I would love to tag along. Let me know if you want me to bring anything along you want to hear. Might be an idea if I bring my laptop/usb/v-link/co-ax to get an idea what the server does.
Tony.
A recent build I did for my wife's office work /accounts PC, totally silent, fast and only uses 25 watts of electricity :)
That's a monster heat-sink Mark, is it a Ninja? (I must get out more!)
Really impressed your build only uses 25W. That's one of the things I'm desperate to change with my audio build, the Nvidea ION GPU uses far too much power and I get no use from it. The new motherboard will be a great improvement at under 10W.
As for noisy PC's, I hate them and my desktop PC is also super quiet, with a Thermalright HS and single 140mm Noctua fan which is undervolted to run slowly.
(nice pictures by the way :))
Brian,
If you guys fix a date I would love to tag along. Let me know if you want me to bring anything along you want to hear. Might be an idea if I bring my laptop/usb/v-link/co-ax to get an idea what the server does.
Tony.
Good call Tony.
Brians server build cost about £250 not including windows and Jriver.
brian2957
19-07-2012, 19:57
I am the same, I cant stand fan or hard drive noise any more:)
A recent build I did for my wife's office work /accounts PC, totally silent, fast and only uses 25 watts of electricity :)
A huge passive heatsink with mirror finish:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/heatsink-IMG_1105-crop.jpg
----------------
Mounted on the motherboard to give some scale to it:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/heatsink-IMG_1145-crop-.jpg
( I have now replaced the gigabyte board in the picture with an Asus as the Gigabyte had noisy components on the board that where whining when the CPU was idle)
-------------
The CPU is an Intel i3 2125 3.30 GHz with built in Intel HD3000 Graphics which is plenty fast enough.
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/i3-2125-CPU-IMG_1066.jpg
------------------------
Windows experience scores :)
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/i3-2125-Capture.png
--------------
Hard drive is an Intel 520 60GB ssd, not cheap but needed to be the most reliable available for this particular build.
I do like these computer threads :)
Bliddy hell Mark :eek: I didn't know the Borg sold computer parts :eyebrows:
Bliddy hell Mark :eek: I didn't know the Borg sold computer parts :eyebrows:
Its a Scythe Ninja cooler Brian, can be passive or if you fit a fan, a very high performance cooler - overclockers love them as do folk who like silent PC's like Mark and I :)
They weigh about a kilo!
brian2957
19-07-2012, 21:02
Thanks for the info Tim . Lot to learn mate .
There are some very nice cases here for people who might want to build their own;
http://www.quietpc.com/products/htpccases
I particularly like the Streacom FC5WS Black No Optical Fanless HTPC Aluminium Chassis
http://www.quietpc.com/images/products/st-fc5b.jpg
There are some very nice cases here for people who might want to build their own;
http://www.quietpc.com/products/htpccases
I particularly like the Streacom FC5WS Black No Optical Fanless HTPC Aluminium Chassis
http://www.quietpc.com/images/products/st-fc5b.jpg
That's the one I had my eye on. Fortunately for me, they're out of stock at the moment :)
That's the one I had my eye on. Fortunately for me, they're out of stock at the moment :)
A much cheaper alternative is a Lian Li case, I really like Lian Li. These are around 55.00
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/pimg/CA-530-LL_49873_350.jpg
http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product06.php?pr_index=602&cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=64&g=f
This is very restrictive on motherboard choice mind you.
I have asked Brian if he would bring his server with him, hopefully we can arrange a suitable date for all soon.
Nice one. Look forward to hearing all about it :)
Marco.
I am the same, I cant stand fan or hard drive noise any more:)
A recent build I did for my wife's office work /accounts PC, totally silent, fast and only uses 25 watts of electricity :)
A huge passive heatsink with mirror finish:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/heatsink-IMG_1105-crop.jpg
----------------
Mounted on the motherboard to give some scale to it:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/heatsink-IMG_1145-crop-.jpg
( I have now replaced the gigabyte board in the picture with an Asus as the Gigabyte had noisy components on the board that where whining when the CPU was idle)
-------------
The CPU is an Intel i3 2125 3.30 GHz with built in Intel HD3000 Graphics which is plenty fast enough.
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/i3-2125-CPU-IMG_1066.jpg
------------------------
Windows experience scores :)
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/i3-2125-Capture.png
--------------
Hard drive is an Intel 520 60GB ssd, not cheap but needed to be the most reliable available for this particular build.
I do like these computer threads :)
Very nice Mark. I’m rather fond of the i3s myself. :)
You can get away with a considerably smaller passive cooler by underclocking the processor and with the Asus board, I think, you can underclock the side bus and any RAM fitted.
You could probably get all the performance you are likely to need from a slower CPU but I must say it’s great to see someone going for the more powerful builds. :):thumbsup:
:more:
Ali Tait
19-07-2012, 22:07
Brian,
If you guys fix a date I would love to tag along. Let me know if you want me to bring anything along you want to hear. Might be an idea if I bring my laptop/usb/v-link/co-ax to get an idea what the server does.
Tony.
You're welome anytime mate, the more the merrier. Bring the dac, be interesting to try different dacs with the two servers.
Ali Tait
19-07-2012, 22:10
I am the same, I cant stand fan or hard drive noise any more:)
A recent build I did for my wife's office work /accounts PC, totally silent, fast and only uses 25 watts of electricity :)
A huge passive heatsink with mirror finish:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/heatsink-IMG_1105-crop.jpg
----------------
Mounted on the motherboard to give some scale to it:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/heatsink-IMG_1145-crop-.jpg
( I have now replaced the gigabyte board in the picture with an Asus as the Gigabyte had noisy components on the board that where whining when the CPU was idle)
-------------
The CPU is an Intel i3 2125 3.30 GHz with built in Intel HD3000 Graphics which is plenty fast enough.
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/i3-2125-CPU-IMG_1066.jpg
------------------------
Windows experience scores :)
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx234/server9/forum-pictures/i3-2125-Capture.png
--------------
Hard drive is an Intel 520 60GB ssd, not cheap but needed to be the most reliable available for this particular build.
I do like these computer threads :)
Very cool heatsink Mark, looks like it's heavily biased into class A. :D
You could probably get all the performance you are likely to need from a slower CPU but I must say it’s great to see someone going for the more powerful builds.
Unless I have read it wrong John, Mark has not built this as a music server, but as an office PC for his wife to do the accounts on.
Ali Tait
19-07-2012, 22:16
Nice one. Look forward to hearing all about it :)
Marco.
Aye, all the gory details will be set forth mate. :D
Oh well, I wont retract my comments. Seems a bit of waste doing that to count money when it could be making music. ;)
Fair play anyway for just building rather than buying something off the shelf. :)
A much cheaper alternative is a Lian Li case, I really like Lian Li. These are around 55.00
http://www.overclockers.co.uk/pimg/CA-530-LL_49873_350.jpg
http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product06.php?pr_index=602&cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=64&g=f
This is very restrictive on motherboard choice mind you.
Wouldn't that look nice with the aforementioned heatsink stickin up through the bonnet? :lol:
Like those US 70's cars with compressors through the hood! :stalks:
Seriously though, what can you expect, performancewise from one of these slim 1U chassis?
If you go fanless, that is...
/Mike
bobbasrah
20-07-2012, 11:03
Wouldn't that look nice with the aforementioned heatsink stickin up through the bonnet? :lol:
Like those US 70's cars with compressors through the hood! :stalks:
Seriously though, what can you expect, performancewise from one of these slim 1U chassis?
If you go fanless, that is...
/Mike
Fanless is NOT possible on this unit Mike.
The design features a proprietary cpu contact plate conducting via heatpipes to the rear heatsink in a cavity where a blower cross-ventilates it.
Not sure how successfull the heat transfer would be on heatpipes being so near horizontal.... The type of fan and the route of airflow would certainly restrict efficiency so would have to be more powerful to suit.
FWIW I went the opposite direction with this http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product06.php?pr_index=299&cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=62
mainly for the 6 hdd capacity, and still was uncomfortable with a passive solution despite the case size.
Two large dia case side fans run at low speed, and the dumpy large area heatpipe/sink with fan in downdraught is effectively inaudible even with the cover off and my head in the case.:D
I understand the passive approach is psychologically secure for absolute peace of mind as to silence, but fan noise is not the problem it once was TBH...;)
Fanless is NOT possible on this unit Mike.
Not necessarily, it would depend on what motherboard and CPU you were using? A low powered miniITX with an Atom CPU and it's own heatsink could run passively. Of course, if you wanted anything like normal PC performance with an i3 or higher CPU, then yes you would need some form of cooling.
I have seen these cases on computer forums being run passively by some people.
Right, here goes.
I've now got an old PC set up with JRiver music centre controlled with My River remote on my iPad and it all seems to work at the office just fine. Phew...
The PC has got a S/PDIF output that's glowing nicely, so I should be able to connect it directly into my Bushmaster tonight.
There are some output settings that need to be set up which are:
Output mode: ASIO, kernel, memory, direct out etc.
Are there any settings that I need to make to get the best quality S/PDIF output?
I haven't disabled any of the PC background functions either.
PC is running Xp and has a P4 2.4 with 2GB RAM and the music is on the local hard drive.
If it's as good as you guys say it should be then I'll start looking at some sexy new hardware :)
Cheers,
brian2957
20-07-2012, 15:16
You might have to wait until some of the computer 'big boys ' on here get home from work Martin . Good luck :). Please let me know if the Bushmaster is OK with XP/2GB RAM .
Thanks Brian,
I tested it this afternoon and have a big problem with the sound being very distorted. Tried a few settings and there's no change.
I think it may be a hardware/driver issue, as the problem's still there when I plug my headphones into the PC direct. Looked on Internet and there seems to be a problem with drivers for this old PC. Damn :scratch:
My main work pc is new and has a decent sound card in it, so I may drag that home for the weekend, as I'm keen to hear the results.
Back to the drawing board :rolleyes:
Cheers,
brian2957
20-07-2012, 21:57
You have PM Martin.
wee tee cee
21-07-2012, 08:04
You're welome anytime mate, the more the merrier. Bring the dac, be interesting to try different dacs with the two servers.Will do,
I will be very interested to see what a dedicated server can do against a lap top ,let me know what else to bring- the Mark Grant/Eichmann silver bullet IC could well be a perfect partner for the tellurium black, I will bring that and see what you think.
Regards Tony
bobbasrah
21-07-2012, 08:25
On my similar old XP desktop from memory, Foobar over Asio worked fine with no glitches, even if it was a little clunky on the software side. The drivers should be available for most boards from somewhere, IF that is the issue. Mobo on mine was old MSI and drivers are still available (and I have backups).
Sonics over Spdif were fine until I tried the usb DAC which was better with the same program setup, then the same difference noted using the later Mediaportal platform.
No experience of JRiver I'm afraid Martin, but might be worth trying with Foobar to test if the same distortion occurs.
I assume your mobo built in audio card has not got ASIO drivers? Try ASIO4All, which usually works and gives good audio. (i'ts really a wrapper for Kernel Streaming but nevertheless helluva lot better than DirectSound)
Then set ASIO as output in J River.
ASIO4All may be a little tricky to configure, but when properly initiated it will show a small icon in systray which is clickable, then you have your options available.
Best of luck to ya'
/Mike
Ali Tait
21-07-2012, 09:27
Will do,
I will be very interested to see what a dedicated server can do against a lap top ,let me know what else to bring- the Mark Grant/Eichmann silver bullet IC could well be a perfect partner for the tellurium black, I will bring that and see what you think.
Regards Tony
Aye, bring whatever you'd like to try. I have the loan of a TQ USB to try too.
brian2957
21-07-2012, 09:34
You guys available next Saturday(28th July )
I assume your mobo built in audio card has not got ASIO drivers? Try ASIO4All, which usually works and gives good audio. (i'ts really a wrapper for Kernel Streaming but nevertheless helluva lot better than DirectSound)
Then set ASIO as output in J River.
ASIO4All may be a little tricky to configure, but when properly initiated it will show a small icon in systray which is clickable, then you have your options available.
Best of luck to ya'
/Mike
No, I don't think the "old PC" is up to the job, unfortunately.
My main work PC is only a year old and it's got a core 2 duo, 4 Gb RAM etc. so will try and use this over the weekend.
But most importantly, It's got a modern PCI sound card with co-ax digital output (it's an M-Audio 2496 Audiophile card).
My main reason for trying the PC is to see if the sound quality is better than my Apple TV playing apple lossless files.
From the usability, cost, size, convenience and portability point of view, the ATV + iPad easliy beats the PC-based system on all counts, I'm afraid.
Sound quality is very good from the ATV too, but is it the best? That's what I'd like to find out. Anyone compared the two?
Cheers,
Sound quality is very good from the ATV too, but is it the best? That's what I'd like to find out. Anyone compared the two?
Yes and I have also tried a Western Digital Live TV box, which I still have. Both the ATV and WDLive can produce good audio via fibre optic cable, which most people are more than happy with and this can equal a standard PC setup - but matched against a dedicated and properly setup music server there is no comparison I'm afraid, both fail to inspire me. They are not bad, but they just cannot produce audiophile performance like a well sorted server can.
All depends on how high you set the bar really, the ATV or WD with a tablet and remote app are great and very convenient, producing acceptable results, but I would wager you would find them lacking after awhile if you are seeking high quality audio.
Thanks for that Tim,
It's the words "well sorted" that worry me TBH, as there seem to be so many variables that could mean the difference between it being good and great :scratch:
Incidentally, do you use the s\pdif output from your current ASUS board or USB?
I like the sound of your proposed 10 Watt system, detailed on page 5 - have you started building yet? Seems like it's a fairly low-cost option too:
The next unit I build will be based on an Intel DN2800MT Mini-ITX motherboard with an mSATA SSD plugged directly into the board. It is also a passive board and with 2GB RAM it uses less than 10 watts (my current configuration uses 45W). It has 2 high current USB ports and will be powered by a linear off board PSU. I intend on trying Mark Grants Linear power supply and Sbooster.
No s\pdif output though - could the cable be soldered direct to the PCB header?
And does the SSD sit directly onto the PCB?
Looking at costs:
Board £85
mSATA SSD £70
RAM £30
PSU £30 budget?
Case from £30
JRiver $50
My River ipad £2.
Total £300 ish, £450 with windows 7 pro licence?
Hmmm...
Mark Grant
21-07-2012, 11:28
No s\pdif output though - could the cable be soldered direct to the PCB header?
If you download the manual for the motherboard from here for example:
http://www.mini-box.com/Intel-DN2800MT-Mini-ITX-Motherboard
and look on pages 47 and 48 it mentions the header.
I would suggest to plug on rather than soldering as soldering to small pins on a multilayer board can be tricky as if you overheat and melt the solder holding the pin to the board it can be a problem...
Not sure if that board would be quick enough if you want to stream 1080p video etc, probably perfect for audio though.
You might be better with a 'normal' motherboard and intel CPU with a quiet CPU cooler and case etc.
brian2957
21-07-2012, 11:32
I've never heard Tims' server Martin so can't comment . I can say that the server Gary built me with Windows 7 and JRiver , also using a programme called Fidelizer is easily the best sound I have obtained from any system I have owned and I've been doing this for a long time . Obviously the rest of the system plays a part but I firmly believe if you get the server right you are halfway there . I would certainly describe my system as 'well sorted ' and the only thing I have changed recently is the server .
ZebuTheOxen
21-07-2012, 12:01
I like the sound of your proposed 10 Watt system, detailed on page 5 - have you started building yet?
And does the SSD sit directly onto the PCB?
mSATA SSDs plug straight into the motherboard typically. As seen here:
http://i.imgur.com/T31ui.jpg
I recently built a small pfsense server (Router / Firewall / AV / Web Cache) with the requirements of having very low power consumption as well as reasonable performance.
My motherboard of choice was the Intel D2500CC (not suitable for a music server - no SPDIF) and case (Morex T-3410 with integrated 60w PSU, with external 5A 12V brick) from Logic Supply in the Netherlands. Shipping was quick (3 days ish). The supplied brick is a high efficiency Seasonic adapter (SSA-0601D-12) and the total efficiency for the unit at 25% load (typical draw) is in the high 80s. Since the kit will be on 24/7, this is important to me.
I didn't go with an mSATA SSD simply because of cost, a 64GB Sandisk SSD from OCUK is £40 ish - cheapest I could find by miles.
All-in, it was around £300 with 3GB of RAM not including software (pfsense is free).
My suggestion for a music server would be an Intel D2700DC, it has an onboard SPDIF Output on the backpanel, along with HDMI and DVI-D.
Incidentally, do you use the s\pdif output from your current ASUS board or USB?
And does the SSD sit directly onto the PCB?
I use USB for output Martin and Tom has covered the mSATA SSD point. However I don't agree with his observation that a board without SPDIF is not suitable for a music server. Depends on what you want to output with ;)
Here's an mSATA fitted to a board - very neat and very low powered;
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/Z68XP_UD3_iSSD_Closeup-225255B52525.png
Here's an Intel DN2800MT with an mSATA SSD fitted and 2GB RAM, which is how I intend going. With just an mSATA and one SO DIMM you should be around the 10W mark, or less.
I really like this configuration, not just because it is low powered, but also for its simplicity - no internal wiring, no moving parts and a very neat power solution.
But I will be using this for audio playback only and nothing else, it will be headless like my current player with nothing else fitted - no display, mouse, keyboard or USB dongles.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w63/greatgig/Atom-emaplaat-DN2800MT.jpg
This is a good thread regarding the board Intel DN2800MT hands on - Single digit world? (http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=63959)
Ali Tait
21-07-2012, 16:07
You guys available next Saturday(28th July )
Yep, I'm free then. Gaz, Tony?
wee tee cee
22-07-2012, 14:37
Yep, I'm free then. Gaz, Tony?Ye,
Im good for the 28th
Ali Tait
22-07-2012, 15:24
Cool, that just leaves Gaz. You free mate?
brian2957
23-07-2012, 21:18
Hi mate just talked to Gary and he's free on Saturday . What kind of time suits you for us coming over ?
Ali Tait
23-07-2012, 21:34
If you guys head over to get to mine about 11 ish, that'll give us plenty time for fiddlin' . No time constraints so we can party into the night. :D
That cool?
Sounds great, have a good day guys - file based audio and DAC's, what a cracker ;)
brian2957
23-07-2012, 21:50
If you guys head over to get to mine about 11 ish, that'll give us plenty time for fiddlin' . No time constraints so we can party into the night. :D
That cool?
Excellent mate . I'll pass the message on to the guys.:D
brian2957
23-07-2012, 21:56
Sounds great, have a good day guys - file based audio and DAC's, what a cracker ;)
Thanks Tim , I'm really looking forward to being in the company of some pretty knowlegeable guys and to listening to some special gear..:)
Ali Tait
23-07-2012, 22:49
Me too! The Craic is always good, a bit of banter never goes amiss. Do you all like curry, and none of you are veggie as I recall?
Ali Tait
23-07-2012, 22:53
BTW, anyone else nearby who fancies coming along is most welcome.
brian2957
24-07-2012, 08:08
Me too! The Craic is always good, a bit of banter never goes amiss. Do you all like curry, and none of you are veggie as I recall?
I'm not vegetarian and I love curries mate:D
Ali Tait
24-07-2012, 12:35
Jolly good!
Hmmm, I think Dorset to Dunfermline is a little too far for me :(
bobbasrah
24-07-2012, 13:00
Hmmm, I think Dorset to Dunfermline is a little too far for me :(
Think you have problems Tim ? :eyebrows:
I'm not vegetarian and I love curries mate:D
ditto.
and having tried one of the missus' currys before I say yeah!
wee tee cee
24-07-2012, 16:07
Will have to skip the curry but will bring some strawberry tarts to soak up the tea.
Ali Tait
24-07-2012, 16:36
You veggie Tony? We can easily sort something for you if so?
wee tee cee
24-07-2012, 16:50
I'm a salad dodger.
brian2957
24-07-2012, 17:14
Love strawberry tarts too :eyebrows:
I'm a salad dodger.
same here, love my saturated fats too much (belch)
Ali Tait
24-07-2012, 22:01
Well disaster has struck, the SSD has expired! Jason is sending another which should come by Friday, so hopefully all will be well for Saturday.
Ali Tait
24-07-2012, 22:03
I'm a salad dodger.
Ok, not keen on curry then? We'll get something else sorted for you. What d'ye like?
I wish I hadn't done that...
Took my work PC home last night to compare the SQ to my Apple TV.
The PC feeding my Bushmaster with FLACs is a worthwhile step up in sound quality in my system.
The step down in user friendlyness is huge though :(
Bear in mind that I was coming from a sceptical position - I wasn't hoping to hear any difference or improvement at all. Damn.
MY PC is running xp pro 32bit, Jriver 30day trial and has an m-audio audiophile 2496 pci sound card installed. Output to the BM was using the soundcard's spdif output.
I also tried the sound card's analogue outputs direct to my amp - definitely not as good as the BM. Sounded really dull and lacking any dynamics.
Not sure what to do now...
brian2957
25-07-2012, 09:21
Hi Martin , the files on my server comes up on my 37 inch plasma TV using JRiver . I control it at the moment usins a wireless padded keyboard and a wireless mouse which is very user friendly IMO . I believe it can be controlled via an android phone or something like an IPad . Mines' has also been a big upgrade in SQ , so big an upgrade that I felt it necessary to share it with the members of this forum.
Hi Martin , the files on my server comes up on my 37 inch plasma TV using JRiver . I control it at the moment usins a wireless padded keyboard and a wireless mouse which is very user friendly IMO . I believe it can be controlled via an android phone or something like an IPad . Mines' has also been a big upgrade in SQ , so big an upgrade that I felt it necessary to share it with the members of this forum.
Hi Brian,
I've got a panasonic 37 inch plasma too - great picture.
I was using the PC with the ipad to control it and actually, it's not too bad. I don't think it would work for my family though, so the Apple TV would have to stay for their music, Netflix, internet radio, youtube etc.
I think it's the thought of putting a windows machine in the lounge that makes me cringe. I do have a spare licence or two though, so at least I wouldn't have to buy a new one.
I'm leaning towards a small form factor machine, based on the Streacom F1C, with a socket 1155 mini itx motherboard and an i3 processor. This would give me a small, sexy unit with some decent power behind it.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQRzm0t4F82eDJycNbatizLIhNflGK6_ YGrbt8K2a1hH2Lge_0t1w
I'd need to budget for something like a v-link (£100) to give me a decent spdif output though.
Yes, thanks for sharing your server project details, it's going to cost me a fortune :)
brian2957
25-07-2012, 11:30
:D I think that is the case which Tim suggests Martin . The V-link is probably going to be my next upgrade . I am using this at the moment and it's pretty good .
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FANMUSIC-FM-6011-COAX-USB-to-SPDIF-COAX-Converter-PCM2902E-NEW-/130704673864?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_So undCards&hash=item1e6e9b0c48
Good luck with the build. You know you deserve it :eyebrows:
brian2957
25-07-2012, 12:51
Well disaster has struck, the SSD has expired! Jason is sending another which should come by Friday, so hopefully all will be well for Saturday.
Hope you get this fixed ASAP Ali . Please let us know either way buddy.
Ali Tait
25-07-2012, 14:41
Yes will do. Should be ok by Saturday though.
wee tee cee
25-07-2012, 20:02
Ok, not keen on curry then? We'll get something else sorted for you. What d'ye like?
Nah,
Love a curry, but I have to get back for a family doo...were going out for a curry.
Two in one day would leave me with an arse like a half eaten blood orange.
Ali Tait
25-07-2012, 20:16
:lol:
Well disaster has struck, the SSD has expired!
What make is the SSD Ali? - some have had reliability issues, but I won't mention the name yet ;)
Complete change of plan - got myself one of these Mini-itx PCs for £279 with Windows 7 preloaded.
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRaRtD8FRPUmNb5P2kNZsvivR6te2OXb KQ3X68kvGlTrSHuDrSL
It's a very nice bit of kit, which has an AMD E450 processor, 4 GB RAM, WiFi, 500GB HDD, HDMI, S\PDIF etc. all I need in 1 box really. And a pre-loaded copy of W7 64 bit.
It's got an internal fan, but it's whisper quiet - can't be heard from the sofa.
Also got one of these to control it - what a great unit!
http://image.ebuyer.com/UK/w0250233_newpage.jpg
It's now loaded up with JRiver and Fidelizer and the output is set to WASAPI event mode. I haven't had a chance to have a good listen and compare with my Apple TV yet, but it seems to make nice sounds!
Not sure if I'll need to buy a USB to S/PDIF converter yet - how will I know if I need one?
Cheers,
bobbasrah
27-07-2012, 08:55
Complete change of plan - got myself one of these Mini-itx PCs for £279 with Windows 7 preloaded.
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRaRtD8FRPUmNb5P2kNZsvivR6te2OXb KQ3X68kvGlTrSHuDrSL
It's a very nice bit of kit, which has an AMD E450 processor, 4 GB RAM, WiFi, 500GB HDD, HDMI, S\PDIF etc. all I need in 1 box really. And a pre-loaded copy of W7 64 bit.
It's got an internal fan, but it's whisper quiet - can't be heard from the sofa.
Also got one of these to control it - what a great unit!
http://image.ebuyer.com/UK/w0250233_newpage.jpg
It's now loaded up with JRiver and Fidelizer and the output is set to WASAPI event mode. I haven't had a chance to have a good listen and compare with my Apple TV yet, but it seems to make nice sounds!
Not sure if I'll need to buy a USB to S/PDIF converter yet - how will I know if I need one?
Cheers,
Flashy looking remote Martin. Did it come with the Acer or separate at additional cost?:eek:
Re the spdif v usb/spdif converter, the only way to find out is to trial one (possibly borrow one from one of the lads? or buy on approval?) I'm afraid.
Depending on how good your board's usb/spdif implementations are, it will improve or be no different. ;)
Usb conversion on my desktop is better than off board spdif, but found no difference with another PC previously...:rolleyes:
Flashy looking remote Martin. Did it come with the Acer or separate at additional cost?:eek:
Hi Bob,
The remote was an extra £23, although the PC does come with an OK wireless keyboard and mouse.
The unit is smaller than you'd imagine at only 13 cm wide. It's about the size of a gamepad. It feels a bit lightweight, but it works brilliantly.
http://www.ebuyer.com/250233-xenta-wireless-mini-keyboard-with-touchpad-and-multimedia-keys-usb-pkb-1720
Most of my listening will be done without the TV on and controlling it via the iPad app, so it's going to be just for control of windows, Netflix, spotify, slingplayer etc etc.
I'm just copying my FLACs to the HDD at the moment.
Cheers,
bobbasrah
27-07-2012, 10:25
I'm just copying my FLACs to the HDD at the moment.
Haha, that could be fun Martin.... Backed mine up yesterday (2nd backup to old WD portable) and it took a little over 13 hours...:doh:
What will we interesting is if you hear any difference to the Apple as a source, but as said earlier the implementation of the spdif is so variable anyway.... I have no doubt that Stan has it well enough implemented at the DAC, but at the PC/Apple it is a lottery TBH..:scratch:
If you DO trial a usb converter Martin, can I suggest that you leave ONLY that connected at usb when you do your trial. ie the remote pad de-installed temporarily. My machine has two usb hubs (usb2 and usb3) with the DAC only connected to one of them, the USB3. It sounded better to me with no other devices on the same hub. Just my 2c :cool:
Ali Tait
27-07-2012, 11:26
What make is the SSD Ali? - some have had reliability issues, but I won't mention the name yet ;)
Dunno yet Tim, I'll find out when I take it out later on when I get back.
brian2957
27-07-2012, 17:04
Complete change of plan - got myself one of these Mini-itx PCs for £279 with Windows 7 preloaded.
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRaRtD8FRPUmNb5P2kNZsvivR6te2OXb KQ3X68kvGlTrSHuDrSL
It's a very nice bit of kit, which has an AMD E450 processor, 4 GB RAM, WiFi, 500GB HDD, HDMI, S\PDIF etc. all I need in 1 box really. And a pre-loaded copy of W7 64 bit.
It's got an internal fan, but it's whisper quiet - can't be heard from the sofa.
Also got one of these to control it - what a great unit!
http://image.ebuyer.com/UK/w0250233_newpage.jpg
It's now loaded up with JRiver and Fidelizer and the output is set to WASAPI event mode. I haven't had a chance to have a good listen and compare with my Apple TV yet, but it seems to make nice sounds!
Not sure if I'll need to buy a USB to S/PDIF converter yet - how will I know if I need one?
Cheers,
This looks very nice Martin . Hope you get mucho enjoyment from it . Please keep us posted.:cool:
Complete change of plan - got myself one of these Mini-itx PCs for £279 with Windows 7 preloaded.
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRaRtD8FRPUmNb5P2kNZsvivR6te2OXb KQ3X68kvGlTrSHuDrSL
It's a very nice bit of kit, which has an AMD E450 processor, 4 GB RAM, WiFi, 500GB HDD, HDMI, S\PDIF etc. all I need in 1 box really. And a pre-loaded copy of W7 64 bit.
It's got an internal fan, but it's whisper quiet - can't be heard from the sofa.
Also got one of these to control it - what a great unit!
http://image.ebuyer.com/UK/w0250233_newpage.jpg
It's now loaded up with JRiver and Fidelizer and the output is set to WASAPI event mode. I haven't had a chance to have a good listen and compare with my Apple TV yet, but it seems to make nice sounds!
Not sure if I'll need to buy a USB to S/PDIF converter yet - how will I know if I need one?
Cheers,
Ohh look at the shiny shiny :)
Vary nice mate, that remotes crackin'
wee tee cee
27-07-2012, 18:10
Ohh look at the shiny shiny :)
Vary nice mate, that remotes crackin'
ooooohhhh....... baguette
Great "audiophile" setup guide for Jriver 17 here;
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/436-jriver-media-center-17-detail/
ooooohhhh....... baguette
You took that too far... :)
Ali Tait
27-07-2012, 18:45
Dunno yet Tim, I'll find out when I take it out later on when I get back.
T'was a Kingston that was in it. Replaced with a OCZ Techologies.
Ali Tait
27-07-2012, 18:51
All is well with the new SSD chaps. Files are adding to the library as I type. I may be some time...
Great "audiophile" setup guide for Jriver 17 here;
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/436-jriver-media-center-17-detail/
Hi Gary,
Thanks for the tip - will check it out tonight. Gonna do some AB comparisons with the Apple TV. Still havent listened to it yet :(
Re: the remote. Its a great little unit, although it looks like a toy until you use it and then it's great!
Cheers,
T'was a Kingston that was in it. Replaced with a OCZ Techologies.
Interesting.... Kingston's (of which I have two) were the ones I was thinking of. They had an issue that was solved with a firmware update. If you didn't update them, there was a very high chance of failure - I wonder if it was updated before install? Anyway, solved now and hopefully that will be all your problems solved :)
Ali Tait
27-07-2012, 23:13
Aye hopefully. You don't expect an SSD to fail do you?
Aye hopefully. You don't expect an SSD to fail do you?
They actually fail quite a lot Ali :(
Ali Tait
28-07-2012, 00:08
Really? Maybe I should make a clone then.
Really? Maybe I should make a clone then.
At the moment they have a higher failure rate than mechanical drives, new technology and a totally different controller system. The controller is the most important element in an SSD and the area under constant development. The failures are more to do with bugs in the firmware and can often be rectified, but of course your data is lost.
I've got six mechanical hard drives and only one failure due to dropping the bloody thing.
On the other hand I've had 3 differnt SSD, two of which had major firmware problems and would, if i had anything bar an OS on them, have lost the data.
My stratagy is to keep all my music files on a discrete mechanical drive and only use the music server SSD for the OS and player.
My strategy is to keep all my music files on a discrete mechanical drive and only use the music server SSD for the OS and player.
Same here John and my desktop PC SSD only has the O/S on it too, everything else has been moved to a mechanical drive, even my Desktop and all default folders have been moved. I love the speed of my SSD, but I would never trust it for data and I have an image archived in case it fails. In fact I securely wipe it every now and then and restore the O/S image. Despite only using around 20% of its capacity and with TRIM active, it still takes a performance hit after awhile.
Ali Tait
28-07-2012, 06:52
Yes, that is what I'm doing here too, all music is on the Drobo. One upside of this is that the new drive is quite a bit faster than the old.
Ali Tait
28-07-2012, 06:54
At the moment they have a higher failure rate than mechanical drives, new technology and a totally different controller system. The controller is the most important element in an SSD and the area under constant development. The failures are more to do with bugs in the firmware and can often be rectified, but of course your data is lost.
Jason told me he has had three Kingston failures, yet his source for them told him they were the most reliable, with the lowest return rate.
I've got six mechanical hard drives and only one failure due to dropping the bloody thing.
On the other hand I've had 3 differnt SSD, two of which had major firmware problems and would, if i had anything bar an OS on them, have lost the data.
My stratagy is to keep all my music files on a discrete mechanical drive and only use the music server SSD for the OS and player.
wot he said.
This is the best practice IMO
Jason told me he has had three Kingston failures, yet his source for them told him they were the most reliable, with the lowest return rate.
I won't tell you what I have read about OCZ drives on their forums then ;)
A lot of the Kingston's did fail, but once they got the firmware sorted they have been OK. Because they sold so many, the reported failure rates were obviously higher and the figures were distorted IMO. In their defence (both my SSD's are Kingston and fine) most of this failure was down to the users not updating the firmware, but then most users wouldn't in all honesty have tackled it, especially as updating the firmware wiped the drive. I work with computers and the guy at the desk next to mine had a Kingston failure but I asked him if he had updated the firmware..... "No" was the reply. So if people in IT didn't bother I doubt very much if many of the general public did, hence the higher than normal failure rates.
The newer Kingston's are very reliable, but you do need to double check the firmware before use. As I said I have two and they have been perfect for well over a year now and both have been in two computers and securely wiped a number of times using Parted Magic. I got that tip and advice on how to do it from the OCZ SSD forum. Parted Magic will securely erase (totally wipe all data) each block, so effectively it resets your drive back to its factory state and this restores its original speed. Its a great bit of free software which is handy for many things, not just resetting SSD drives. So if you have a backup image of your SSD O/S and occasionally perform a secure erase with Parted Magic and restore your O/S image, you will maintain the drives original high performance.
Parted Magic (http://partedmagic.com/doku.php?id=start)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parted_Magic
ZebuTheOxen
28-07-2012, 09:34
If you want a reliable SSD, buy Intel.
The validation testing on all of their products puts them leagues ahead of any other vendor.
I like Crucial and have Crucial SSDs in every bit of kit I own, but only because Intel's pricing was so uncompetitive until recently.
Without getting into the SSD vs. Mechanical debate; there are 0 companies I deal with that exclusively use SSDs on their desktops or servers.
At the moment they are treated like magical pixie dust - to be sprinkled over things that need to go fast.
The only thing you need to be aware of is buying mechanical drives with TLER support, this allows the server to 'gracefully' remove the drive from an array. Otherwise you get 'sympathy failures' where drives, which are completely fine, will fall out of the array with the one bad one. It's not worth the worry.
On a final point, please use RAID6. With a hotspare if you can. :)
wee tee cee
29-07-2012, 10:37
Had a crackin day at Ali Tates place yesterday. Nice to put faces to names.Met brian and bernie (cane toad) .
We had a bunch of wires dacs and computer based audio.
Wires first...There was a belkin 5m usb (mine) about a fiver.
Brian brought a fifty odd quid usb and ali had on loan a telluim q jobbie.
well to my suprise there is quite a dfference in the usb leads, hate to say it but in price ascending order brians usb was quite an upgrade over mine, the tq was very good indeed....worth the money,ye probably.
dacs my MF M1,Bernies Audio note, Alis chinese marvel and his prototype valve dac. We had two v-links my origional and Garys mk2.The mk2 was an improvement over my own.All the dacs were getting fed co-ax from a Mark grant trico/wtb silver.
My MF didnt last long we all agreed it was good but not great. Bernies audio note didnt sound quite right cold so we left it powered up for a couple of hours..It came good far more organic and natural than the MF.
As always Alis chinese cheapy punched well above its weight sounded great in his set up.
The prototype valve dac was really good.Noticeably improved sound stage and atmosphere with no harshness or coloration. It sounded quite a bit better than the dac in the tfs.
I took my lap top with lossles i tunes....It didnt sound at all bad, BUT..
Brian had brought the server Gary had built with him...I could quite easilly pass as a couple of grands worth of CD player looks wise. It did Improve upon the lap top and got me thinking that bang for buck Gary is really onto something.
Last but not least the TFS....It was noticeably better than all comers.In conjuction with the valve dac we were all really impressed.Two grand is chunk of change but It justifies the cost.
Crakin day...boys and there toys.
What is the name of that girl singing the blues?
Sara K!
Dont forget Lambchop...
crackin writeup Tony, always good to get together.
You missed an awesome curry btw, Ali's Missus can fair cook. :)
wee tee cee
29-07-2012, 16:51
Thanks Gary, she doesn't seem to be on spotify. Great to hear some new sounds, might give my card a workout on amazon. Sorry I missed the meal, good all getting together over some great tunes and gear....
Sounds like a great day out and very informative too.
You say that Brian's server was better than the iTunes laptop - do you think this is due to JRiver being better than iTunes or flac being better than apple lossless or the hardware being better or down to the V-link or a combination?
How much difference did the v-link make to the windows boxes?
Very interesting,
wee tee cee
29-07-2012, 18:58
Martin the datum point was the v link mk2/trico wtb/tq usb.The mk2 sounded better than my original. The server was quieter/cleaner music wise Jriver is definitely a path I will consider treading. The dedicated server wasn't a million miles away from the TFS. Consensus was with a good quality linear power supply it may give it a fair fight. On the day the day the TFS was deemed to be worth its money.
Ali Tait
29-07-2012, 19:44
A bit busy at the moment, I will post my impressions when I get a chance.
brian2957
29-07-2012, 19:47
Sorry guys late to this thread . Straight to bed last night , up at 6 am , just finished work . Great to meet you yesterday Tony , hope we can do this again soon. Also many thanks to you Ali and your missus for your hospitality and the fantastic curry .Hi Martin , the server / JRiver was indeed better than Tonys' laptop . If I was to hazard a guess I would say that it was the dedicated ,quieter, server plus JRiver which made the difference as I previously used a laptop / Foobar /ASIO which I really did enjoy but was ultimately trounced by the dedicated server.. I also used a V Link mk1 and didn't like it , however I now use a V Link 2 because I think it is much better than the 1. Anyway I'm a bit knackered tonght but I will post how the day panned out for me ASAP.
P.S. The V link has certainly improved the SQ of my system Martin. Good value for money IMO.
A dedicated server properly set-up is always going to sound better than a laptop, no matter what you do to the laptop, trust me I have tried. There is too much going on in a laptop than cannot easily be isolated away from the task of just playing music. The fan, a potentially noisy hard drive (and I mean noise in the digital chain, not just mechanical noise), the screen I found to be a cause for concern, then you have the track pad and many other device drivers that you cannot isolate, without rendering the laptop difficult to control. You could strip out the motherboard and ditch everything else and then build a server from this, but then you wouldn't be able to use it as a laptop.
I have experimented with 3 different laptops, running XP and Windows 7 and no matter what I did, nothing produced as clean a sound as a dedicated server. JRiver IMO will also beat iTunes when used with a Windows O/S, but then I have no experience of an Apple machine running iTunes and I am led to understand this is a much better option. Windows and iTunes for high end audio is not the way to go as far as I am concerned. However, a MAC with iTunes and Apple Lossless files is a different kettle of fish to Windows and iTunes.
I don't think anyone serious about getting the best from file based audio should consider a laptop as the front end ;)
What Tim wrote plus a bit. ;)
Ali Tait
30-07-2012, 17:44
Ok, got a chance to post now. Thanks to the lads for coming over, and for bringing all your kit, and to Bernie for bringing round the Zero.
T'was an enjoyable afternoon, and the banter was good too, as were the strawberry tarts Tony brought along!
There were a good few things tried, which Tony has already touched on. Dacs present were the MF, AN dac Zero, cheap AK4396 dac and my Nick built valve output version of same with O'Netics output transformers. For servers we had the TFS, and one built by Gary for Brian in a nice looking case. We also tried Tony's laptop running itunes via a v link one and two, with which we tried three different USB cables. I'll get this out of the way first- if you are running a v link or similar, the USB cable does make a difference! Say what you like, the differences were easily discernable, and we all agreed on the changes. The 5m Belkin was first up and sounded good, and I think you'd be quite happy with it in isolation. Next up was a Furutech cable, which improved on the Belkin in some areas, but sounded a little harsh and toppy at times in my system. Lastly we tried the TQ USB, which was easily the best of the three, giving the clarity and more of the Furutech but none of the harshness. A very nice cable indeed, but then it should be given the cost!
Tony has already mentioned how we found the dacs- MF was good but a little mechanical and "digital" sounding, Zero was better, a smoother sound with better soundstaging and the valve dac best of all, with a smoother sound and much deeper and wider soundstage. Interestingly, Tony though it a bit veiled by comparison at first, until we'd listened for a while, when he then reckoned it just sounded more natural than the other dacs. I'm in agreement with this as it's what I like about this dac, you can listen all day with no fatigue. We also tried the TFS internal dac, which was also very good but not up to the standard of the valve dac. All agreed that the cheap AK4396 was very good indeed given the low cost, and in fact wasn't a million miles away from the valve version.
One interesting thing we did was compare two Supra Trico cables, one (mine) with copper WBT's and the other (Gary's) with silver. I was interested to hear that the different connectors really made a difference to the sound, to a degree I wasn't expecting. The difference was obvious, with all preferring the copper plugs smoother sound, the silver sounding harsh and mechanical in comparison in my system. Just shows how system dependant these things are.
If SPPV is your goal, then look no further than the server built by Gary for Brian. This looked as good as it sounded, you would easily believe on seeing it in a rack that it was several K's worth of cd player. It was no slouch in the sound department either, running jriver as does the TFS, certainly sounding better than any cd player I've heard.An amazing result given the £250 total cost. The TFS bettered it, giving a more spacious acoustic around voices and instruments with deeper and wider soundstage, but there really wasn't a great deal in it. I suspect the majority of the difference is down to the linear supply of the TFS.
Once we had tried the stuff we all wanted to, we settled down to listening to the TFS with the valve dac, and Gary, being a knowledgeable chap on JRiver, had a look at the various settings. First thing we found was that the TFS ships with version 16, so we upgraded this to the latest version. Unfortunately, this is not free to do, but it's only 18 dollars and well worth it IMHO, as there was a definate improvement in sound quality. Can't blame Jason for this though as he bought the licenses when 16 was current and it's JRiver's decision to charge for the upgrade, but as I say I think it's well worth doing if you have a TFS.
He also looked at other settings, and we changed the digital output from ASIO to another I can't remember at the moment, I'm sure Gary will clarify. This again was an improvement.
Lastly, he suggested trying Fideliser, which optimises the server for music playback, shutting down unnecessary processes. Also well worth a go IMHO, especially as it's free!
Jason, don't know if you've tried these tweaks yourself, I know you spent a lot of time tweaking the TFS, but I really think the changes I've detailed here are worth doing, as I found them all an improvement from how it was when it arrived. Perhaps you can try them and let us know what you think?
So, we come down to the question- Is the TFS worth the asking price?
From a commercial kit point of view, yes definately IMHO. I've no doubt the sound quality could be equalled for quite a bit less if you went the DIY route, but most don't have the knowledge or the inclination. Commercially, I'd say the TFS easily justifies it's cost. I've heard poorer cd players that cost quite a bit more.
Think I've covered everthing, I'm sure the lads will remind me if I haven't. I've passed on your compliments on the curry!
brian2957
30-07-2012, 18:44
To continue from my previous post I would like to 'flesh 'out what I have said earlier. Firstly I never intended to compare the server which Gary built me with anything else since I am very happy with it and don't feel the need . However a few of the members on AOS asked me to take the server and see how it compared to the TFS.
I have to say that , if memory serves me correctly , we never changed anything in Alis' excellent system after the DACs except for the interconnects ( Mark Grant G2000HDs with copper WBT CU plugs were changed to MG G2000HDs with silver eichmanns ) .
So Alis' system provided a level playing field for all the items we tested. His valve amps sounded excellent throughout and his big open baffle speakers , fed by TQ black , ranged from very good to amazing depending on the cables / server /music IMHO . A very clear window to the music. As you can tell I was quite taken with them , however very little chance of sneaking them past SWMBO :lol: . I have a truck at the ready Ali if you're reading this :eyebrows:
Back to the day . Firstly we tried Tonys ( wee tee cee ) laptop using itunes lossless. Then we plugged in the server . The laptop sounded very good , a definite upgrade from a CD player IMO , however the server using Windows 7 / JRiver was a marked improvement . Next we concentrated on the USB cables . First was Tonys' Belkin cable which sounded very respectable . Then we plugged in Garys' Furutech Formula 2 USB cable and there was an immediate improvement , more detail , better top end , more natural mids , and more weight / cleaner bass . a big improvement for around £50. Last but not least the TelluriUm Q USB cable . Again a further improvement , more of everything , but above all a smoother , more natural sound . Worth £250 ? I 'm afraid I'll have to let you decide that one for yourself :eyebrows:. If I had that kind of disposable income it would probably be high on my upgrade list.
Having sorted out the USB cables we then moved to the Musical Fidelity V-Link , again an audible improvement , however I have to say that my earlier conclusion that the V-Link 2(silver case ) is better than the 1 ( black case ) was to be proven again when used in Alis' system.
Lastly the DACs . Firstly we used Alis' Chinese DAC
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110747160549?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Now this is a very affordable starter DAC for someone 'dipping their toe 'into the file audio 'water' . A very respectable piece of gear . Next we tried Tonys' Musical fidelity M1 , which proved to be an improvement over the Chinese jobby.Again more of everyting , and now we're into true audiophile territory. Next came the Audionote DAC ( can't remember the model - help Gary or Ali:rolleyes:) . I have to say this DAC proved to be possibly my favourite . The most natural sound of the day by far . Lastly Alis' valve DAC was put into the system and it was a close run thing between it and the Audio Note , however Alis' seemed to suit his system better with a larger soundstage .
So there we have it , a final system with which to try the NVA TFS. Firstly I have to say that the TFS was much smaller and much rack ( substitute wife here if it fits better ) friendlier than I had imagined . An impressive- looking piece of kit nevertheless. We used it with Alis' excellent amps and speakers , the TQ USB cable and with and without the MF V-link 2 and Alis' valve DAC.
I have to say that the TFS was worth the wait . Depending on the music / recording quality the SQ ranged from very very good to ' bloody hell it sounds as if the band is in the room ' . The quality of SQ and sense of realism was very palpable and we spent the rest of the day ( probably 3 hours or more ) listening to various pieces of music , never feeling the need to adjust or change things.
In conclusion, a worthwhile trip to Alis' place in Dunfermline . Great company great grub and great music. Needless to say am still very happy with my new server and don't feel the immediate need to change or upgrade it . Maybe if I win the lottery :cool:
I hope this post isn't too long or too boring . If I've missed anything out I'm sure Gary , Ali , or Tony will fill in the gaps . Please remember that all I have written here is all my own opinion . If you have any questions please feel free to ask . If , on the other hand , you feel the need to start an argument with me please talk to your wife , your clergyman , or your God if you have one . I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to :D
A dedicated server properly set-up is always going to sound better than a laptop, no matter what you do to the laptop, trust me I have tried. There is too much going on in a laptop than cannot easily be isolated away from the task of just playing music. The fan, a potentially noisy hard drive (and I mean noise in the digital chain, not just mechanical noise), the screen I found to be a cause for concern, then you have the track pad and many other device drivers that you cannot isolate, without rendering the laptop difficult to control. You could strip out the motherboard and ditch everything else and then build a server from this, but then you wouldn't be able to use it as a laptop
Cheers Tim,
My pc is effectively a mini itx M/B in a case and it's got some parts, such as the graphics chip, wireless card, USB etc. that are not being used. My question is: should I remove the bits that I can, such as the wireless card or just disable them in the BIOS? Not sure if I can disable the inboard graphics as I will probably need the USB for a v-link in the near future.
Another question is about the built-in PSU that only needs a 19v power brick. The generation of the various voltages is done on the board with switching PSU circuits and I was wondering therefore what would be the point of purchasing a top notch linear supply if it's just feeding a bunch of switching supplies. Also, these switching supplies are now on the board and not external, so any electrical noise will be right on the board and not separate. Does this make sense?
Cheers,
brian2957
30-07-2012, 20:24
Hi Martin , before mucking about with settings I would try Fidelizer . It makes a difference on mine.
ZebuTheOxen
30-07-2012, 23:06
My question is: should I remove the bits that I can such as the wireless card or just disable them in the BIOS?
Best practice is just to disable anything you're not using. Apart from possibly improving sound quality, you will save electricity and reduce the number of potentially conflicting elements in software.
Not sure if I can disable the inboard graphics as I will probably need the USB for a v-link in the near future.
Onboard graphics are useful for a number of reasons. With the newer generation of Intel chips, you need the iGPU to take advantage of various encoding acceleration technologies Intel have developed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quick_Sync_Video
Another question is about the built-in PSU that only needs a 19v power brick. The generation of the various voltages is done on the board with switching PSU circuits and I was wondering therefore what would be the point of purchasing a top notch linear supply if it's just feeding a bunch of switching supplies. Also, these switching supplies are now on the board and not external, so any electrical noise will be right on the board and not separate. Does this make sense?
I understand your question, and have been mulling it over with regards to how the TFS possibly implements things (For the record, I have neither seen, heard nor touched the NVA unit).
The standard ATX (PC) PSU is switched mode as you rightly point out, stepping your 240v into 12v, 5v and 3.3v efficiently.
There are triple-output linear power supplies, but I'm going to question the need for such a large (And inefficient) unit.
The digital components do not care about a linear power supply. They have their own voltage regulation setups to ensure the quality of power going into the components is acceptable. The more 'enthusiast' grade motherboards will have 24 or 32-phase VRMs for smoothing out incoming power.
So now we've ruled out the majority of the PC needing a linear PSU, what are we left with? The D/A conversion - your soundcard!
At this point, normal rules apply for dealing with analogue signal: Isolate, regulate.
Filtering the PCI-E bus for any unwanted noise coming from those wires, shielding the card itself away from the rest of the system as well as having discrete linear power supplies (One 12v, One 3.3v) for the card alone.
I've been mulling this over for a while now and it's all quite feasible if you're happy with your PC knowledge!
Once that has been achieved, you're looking solely at the software stack to improve your audio performance. :)
The digital components do not care about a linear power supply. They have their own voltage regulation setups to ensure the quality of power going into the components is acceptable. The more 'enthusiast' grade motherboards will have 24 or 32-phase VRMs for smoothing out incoming power.
So now we've ruled out the majority of the PC needing a linear PSU, what are we left with? The D/A conversion - your soundcard!
At this point, normal rules apply for dealing with analogue signal: Isolate, regulate.
Filtering the PCI-E bus for any unwanted noise coming from those wires, shielding the card itself away from the rest of the system as well as having discrete linear power supplies (One 12v, One 3.3v) for the card alone.
I've been mulling this over for a while now and it's all quite feasible if you're happy with your PC knowledge!
Once that has been achieved, you're looking solely at the software stack to improve your audio performance. :)
I dont agree.
I have two independant linear power supplies on my server and imo they make a noticable differnce.
I have one 5V 2amp supply feeding USB (SPDIF on most boards I've looked at is more problematicla to supply and I data transfer by USB only anyway) and the other supply feeding everything else on the MOB. I have yet a third linear supply feeding a monitor.
You can improve USB power by using the sotem card but its rather expensive.
The XMOS board is another altenative.
It is far easier to dump Windows altogether and use a Linux distro which tends not to run system services by default. Puppy Linux and MPD have given me the best results so far.
I quite like Fidelzer but better not to have yet another program trying to stop the OS doing stuff. Best the OS doesn't do the stuff in the first place.
I have nothing against using soundcards but I've had better results with an external Dac.
Other things that may make a difference is using high quality RAM and underclocking it. This allows you to take advantage of the better timing of good fast RAM.
If you are considering messing about with the BIOS the options you have depend on the MOB; some are highly configurable, some not so much.
The best information can often be found on sites dedicated to gaming rather than audio.
Anyway, I've written loads about this in other threads, My Server Build and Linux for beginers elsewhere.
Ali Tait
31-07-2012, 07:03
I don't know what exactly is being fed, but there are two leads from the TFS power supply to the pc bit, one has three pins, the other has 5 or 6, can't remember and I'm not at home to look, so there is certainly more than one supply going into the pc. I'm pretty sure after hearing Brian's server built by Gary that it's the linear supplies that really lift the performance of the TFS.
Best practice is just to disable anything you're not using. Apart from possibly improving sound quality, you will save electricity and reduce the number of potentially conflicting elements in software.
Onboard graphics are useful for a number of reasons. With the newer generation of Intel chips, you need the iGPU to take advantage of various encoding acceleration technologies Intel have developed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quick_Sync_Video
I understand your question, and have been mulling it over with regards to how the TFS possibly implements things (For the record, I have neither seen, heard nor touched the NVA unit).
The standard ATX (PC) PSU is switched mode as you rightly point out, stepping your 240v into 12v, 5v and 3.3v efficiently.
There are triple-output linear power supplies, but I'm going to question the need for such a large (And inefficient) unit.
The digital components do not care about a linear power supply. They have their own voltage regulation setups to ensure the quality of power going into the components is acceptable. The more 'enthusiast' grade motherboards will have 24 or 32-phase VRMs for smoothing out incoming power.
So now we've ruled out the majority of the PC needing a linear PSU, what are we left with? The D/A conversion - your soundcard!
At this point, normal rules apply for dealing with analogue signal: Isolate, regulate.
Filtering the PCI-E bus for any unwanted noise coming from those wires, shielding the card itself away from the rest of the system as well as having discrete linear power supplies (One 12v, One 3.3v) for the card alone.
I've been mulling this over for a while now and it's all quite feasible if you're happy with your PC knowledge!
Once that has been achieved, you're looking solely at the software stack to improve your audio performance. :)
Very good post.
Its too easy to carry over the old hifi insecurities to PC audio, but digging a bit deeper (as you have done) shows that they don't always apply.
A linear PSU could improve things, sure, but its not certain by how much?
But its increased cost and there's the fact of diminishing returns to consider.
In Brian's server the VLink was acting as the soundcard - and improvements can be made there down the line at reasonable cost.
For a bit of perspective guys, my £250 server got within shouting distance of the TFS and that's with a bog standard micro-atx psu.
The TFS sounded better - yes - but not night and day better, and using something other than the V-Link like John Kenny's USB/SPDIF converter or the Audiophilleo 2 would get it even closer.
To me its all about making the difference where it actually counts within the budget you have.
For my own server I use this PSU:
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=235
Seasonic x760
I chose this as it measures extremely well in terms of ripple rejection etc...
Kinda like a hifi supply ;)
If you have a bigger case for your music server I'd go with this Seasonic supply.
At 760watts its overspecc'ed for a server just for music, but I use mine as a games machine too, so needed a bit of extra oomph for the graphics card I have in there..
Of course whats important is perceived value to the person who owns the kit.
The TFS did indeed sound better and it looked very good but obviously its built for a different market.
There's something to be said IMO for loving your music and being HAPPY with your kit...and not constantly thinking your kit is never good enough.
Just a thought..
I don't know what exactly is being fed, but there are two leads from the TFS power supply to the pc bit, one has three pins, the other has 5 or 6, can't remember and I'm not at home to look, so there is certainly more than one supply going into the pc. I'm pretty sure after hearing Brian's server built by Gary that it's the linear supplies that really lift the performance of the TFS.
Agreed with this Ali.
Having tried a few different linear PSU's with different bits of kit they absolutely do improve things.
I'm not sure how much the seperate linear PSU block would cost for the TFS (it weighed a ton!) but I'm guessing a fair chunk of the cost.
Dave B, Mark G?
Budget friendly linear PSU's for PC audio..now there's a market!
Get your thinking caps on lads. :)
There's something to be said IMO for loving your music and being HAPPY with your kit...and not constantly thinking your kit is never good enough.
I definitely agree with this Gary ;)
Good posts chaps,
I need a usb to spdif converter to finish off my server build - I take it that the v-link 2 is the one to go for at this price?
If so, who would you recommend to buy it from?
Cheers,
Ali Tait
31-07-2012, 12:02
Well having heard the 1 and the 2 on Saturday, the 2 was clearly better.
Ali Tait
31-07-2012, 12:06
Agreed with this Ali.
Having tried a few different linear PSU's with different bits of kit they absolutely do improve things.
I'm not sure how much the seperate linear PSU block would cost for the TFS (it weighed a ton!) but I'm guessing a fair chunk of the cost.
Dave B, Mark G?
Budget friendly linear PSU's for PC audio..now there's a market!
Get your thinking caps on lads. :)
Yes agreed, the PS will be a fair percentage of the retail cost, as will the acrylic cases. I believe there are three toroids in the PS.
Yes, could be a market there, for decent pc supplies. I'd say the supplies Nick already produces would be good for this purpose.
ZebuTheOxen
31-07-2012, 12:23
I dont agree.
I have two independant linear power supplies on my server and imo they make a noticable difference.
I have one 5V 2amp supply feeding USB (SPDIF on most boards I've looked at is more problematic to supply - I data transfer by USB only anyway)
You can improve USB power by using the sotem card but its rather expensive.
The XMOS board is another altenative.
The 5V supply on a USB does not carry signal persay, it's just a trigger for communication. After that, draw is low (0.1 - 0.2A) but this does vary from device to device. Something like an USB-based Sbooster would do just as well as the discrete PSU in this instance - although if such a device exists I don't know. I'd have to evaluate it myself before I could comment on whether it's worth doing - I'm using optical SPDIF exclusively at the minute (limited to 96/24).
It is far easier to dump Windows altogether and use a Linux distro which tends not to run system services by default. Puppy Linux and MPD have given me the best results so far.
I quite like Fidelizer but better not to have yet another program trying to stop the OS doing stuff. Best the OS doesn't do the stuff in the first place.
I've had a lot of success with Fidelizer, JRiver (as has everyone) and WASAPI in Windows 7 (Kernel Streaming in XP) - They all sound as neutral as you'd want from a PC.
With Linux I use Ubuntu 12.04LTS with XBMC + MPD plugin. If you like Puppy Linux, take a look at DSL (Damn Small Linux) or Peppermint (Ubuntu fork) for more lightweight loveliness.
Honestly I've had excellent results from all of them - once you hit the bit-perfect output there's not really any further to travel on this road. XBMC offers great functionality plus all the plugins you can get and it's also the best kind of price, free.
From a usability perspective, I find XBMC to be the best choice vs. Windows but as always YMMV.
I have nothing against using soundcards but I've had better results with an external DAC.
Exactly what I've experienced too, but this is the D/A part of the chain. All the normal 'make analogue hifi sound nice' rules apply here.
Other things that may make a difference is using high quality RAM and underclocking it. This allows you to take advantage of the better timing of good fast RAM.
Bandwidth > Latency on modern CPUs. Unless the CPU is data starved (extremely unlikely given our applications) then it shouldn't hurt to underclock. It will save you a bit of power and heat - good if the system is fully passive.
Anyway, I've written loads about this in other threads, My Server Build and Linux for beginers elsewhere.
Aye, I do try to keep up! I try not to get involved in the more esoteric debates, but I honestly do think there's no point running a monitor and motherboard on a linear PSU.
I'm pretty sure after hearing Brian's server built by Gary that it's the linear supplies that really lift the performance of the TFS.
Oh definitely, that's what piqued my interest in the topic! I'm betting it's the linear power feed to the Soundcard's DAC which is giving it the boost, just have to figure out my own way of doing it. :P
Its too easy to carry over the old hifi insecurities to PC audio, but digging a bit deeper (as you have done) shows that they don't always apply.
A linear PSU could improve things, sure, but its not certain by how much?
I work in IT, so I do end up looking at things differently to most.
I would be interested to try and hear the difference between a linear PSU and switched-mode for one of these setups, unfortunately neither of my current systems would be any use for this.
In Brian's server the VLink was acting as the soundcard - and improvements can be made there down the line at reasonable cost.
For fear of repeating myself, an external DAC (or USB soundcard, I suppose) will always sound better than an internal offering. There's no getting away from the benefits of proper isolation on analogue signal.
The TFS sounded better - yes - but not night and day better, and using something other than the V-Link like John Kenny's USB/SPDIF converter or the Audiophilleo 2 would get it even closer.
There are elements of software at play also, without an identical system image this is always a consideration. I do like the V-Link though, nice adapter.
Seasonic x760
If you have a bigger case for your music server I'd go with this Seasonic supply.
Seasonic are the gold standard in PC Power supplies, thoroughly recommended to anyone (I use them exclusively).
I would say that you should get a PSU roughly fitting your power needs. Modern switched-mode PSU efficiency drops right off under 10% - you wouldn't want to run a 20w system on it for instance.
The TFS did indeed sound better and it looked very good but obviously its built for a different market.
Without having heard it, I definitely agree it's tasty looking.
Well having heard the 1 and the 2 on Saturday, the 2 was clearly better.
Yeah, not sure what the differences are between the 1 and the 2, but the 2 sounded better.
£99 online or maybe negotiate a discount from a local hifi shop?
brian2957
31-07-2012, 12:32
Have to agree . Having seen it in the flesh it is a very attractive piece of kit.
brian2957
31-07-2012, 12:34
Good posts chaps,
I need a usb to spdif converter to finish off my server build - I take it that the v-link 2 is the one to go for at this price?
If so, who would you recommend to buy it from?
Cheers,
I have used both Martin and can honestly say that the V-Link 2 is better . I bought mine from Loud and Clear in Glasgow ( £99.00 ) .
good post mate.
I've had a lot of success with Fidelizer, JRiver (as has everyone) and WASAPI in Windows 7 (Kernel Streaming in XP) - They all sound as neutral as you'd want from a PC.
With Linux I use Ubuntu 12.04LTS with XBMC + MPD plugin. If you like Puppy Linux, take a look at DSL (Damn Small Linux) or Peppermint (Ubuntu fork) for more lightweight loveliness.
Honestly I've had excellent results from all of them - once you hit the bit-perfect output there's not really any further to travel on this road. XBMC offers great functionality plus all the plugins you can get and it's also the best kind of price, free.
From a usability perspective, I find XBMC to be the best choice vs. Windows but as always YMMV.
Agree with this.
Some good news on the XBMC front, they are stripping out the audio engine and replacing it with something much better;
http://xbmc.org/dddamian/2012/05/30/xbmc-audio-goes-hd/
For audio I find JRiver with audiophile tweaks to be better than XBMC, be worth revisiting this when the next release of XBMC is live.
For fear of repeating myself, an external DAC (or USB soundcard, I suppose) will always sound better than an internal offering. There's no getting away from the benefits of proper isolation on analogue signal.
Or a digital signal ;)
Thats why I went VLink - isolates that part of the chain from any potential "mush" floaring about in the PC.
Pure USB out the computer into your dac (less the jitter)
the Vlink was perfect for this application.
Seasonic are the gold standard in PC Power supplies, thoroughly recommended to anyone (I use them exclusively).
I would say that you should get a PSU roughly fitting your power needs. Modern switched-mode PSU efficiency drops right off under 10% - you wouldn't want to run a 20w system on it for instance.
Yup, what he said.
The Seasonics are more expensive but worth it. Fit n forget.
Money could be saved by getting a lower wattage model if using your server for audio only.
To me its all about making the difference where it actually counts within the budget you have.
There's something to be said IMO for loving your music and being HAPPY with your kit...and not constantly thinking your kit is never good enough.
Just a thought..
I couldn't agree more in principle; I just cant seem to get the principle to apply with my kit. :D
All it takes is another scrap puter to arrive and I'm all fingers and soldering irons and Oh, wonder what happens if I do this.:doh::D
A few days and a pile of wires later, most of the time it wasn't worth doing but sometimes I think I've made an improvement. :eyebrows:
It's all about what you enjoy isn't it and I enjoy tinkering. :eyebrows:
I couldn't agree more in principle; I just cant seem to get the principle to apply with my kit. :D
All it takes is another scrap puter to arrive and I'm all fingers and soldering irons and Oh, wonder what happens if I do this.:doh::D
A few days and a pile of wires later, most of the time it wasn't worth doing but sometimes I think I've made an improvement. :eyebrows:
It's all about what you enjoy isn't it and I enjoy tinkering. :eyebrows:
Amen bother. :lol:
ZebuTheOxen
31-07-2012, 14:34
I couldn't agree more in principle; I just cant seem to get the principle to apply with my kit. :D
All it takes is another scrap puter to arrive and I'm all fingers and soldering irons and Oh, wonder what happens if I do this.:doh::D
A few days and a pile of wires later, most of the time it wasn't worth doing but sometimes I think I've made an improvement. :eyebrows:
It's all about what you enjoy isn't it and I enjoy tinkering. :eyebrows:
Ohhh yes :D
brian2957
31-07-2012, 14:39
Like a bit of tinkering myself John when I've got the time :eyebrows:. Your tinkering has helped quite a few people BTW.
My tinkering got me into trouble..but that's another story....
I'm pleased you guys had an excellent sesh. It's these local bake-offs that make AoS into more of a real community, so keep 'em coming, I say, and make 'em more of a regular thing! :)
Glad that you also enjoyed the TFS. Told you it was good, Ali. For me, it's the best music streamer I've heard to date, and has a wonderful way of sounding totally 'un-digital': that's 'un-digital', in a bad sense!
Oh, and it sounds like I'll have to swap curry recipes with your good lady!! :exactly:
Marco.
Ali Tait
31-07-2012, 19:54
The only way you'd do that is to prise her granny's recipe book out of her cold dead fingers!
Yes, it's a great bit of kit, even better through the valve dac.
brian2957
31-07-2012, 20:07
Don't forget those fantastic open baffle speakers Ali . I was well impressed with them along with the TFS and the DAC.
Ali Tait
31-07-2012, 20:08
Aye, they help!
Pleased that you also managed to hear the results of different connectors, used on the same cable, the importance of which I've been banging on about for ages! ;)
Of course, as the sonic differences of such aren't measurable, we *must* ALL be imagining them.....
Marco.
Ali Tait
31-07-2012, 22:47
It may be that connectors have more of an influence on the sound than the cable does.
It may be that connectors have more of an influence on the sound than the cable does.
Well judging by my experiences with Mark Grants cables Ali, I would definitely concur with that, as the cable is the same ;)
But then I'm just a deaf daftee.
though we did find the copper to sound better than the silver... :scratch:
That's ok - it'll just be a system balance thing :)
If you get a chance, Gary, try some silver Eichmann bullet plugs, which are a different ball game entirely. Away goes the rather cold and clinical 'hi-fi sonic presentation' of the WBTs, in some systems, and in comes a wonderfully wide-open and sweet sound, with beautiful layering of textures and realistic filigree detailing.
Using the Eichmanns is as if a whole layer of 'hash' has been removed from the sound, and recordings are exposed in their full glory, but without ever sounding harsh on the ear - a truly wonderful sonic balancing act, and I believe the closest you'll ever get to the sound of no plugs...
I just wish I'd discovered them years ago!
Marco.
Ali Tait
01-08-2012, 06:16
though we did find the copper to sound better than the silver... :scratch:
Yes we did, though remember my system is cabled with silver foil IC's, which possibly might explain why the ag WBT sounded harsh. Or that might be crap, as they sound anything but harsh.
The silver foil IC's sounded good, better than the MG's I had in.
@Marco
Does the Eichman Bullet work just as well as a digi interconnect plug as an interconnect?
Are they fragile?
Hi Gaz,
No they're not fragile in the slightest, and give a really nice tight fit. I find that WBTs work better on digital interconnects, but the Eichmanns really come into their own on stereo pairs of analogue interconnects.
Honestly, to get any better, you'd have to hard-wire your kit together, such is the way that the Eichmanns appear to sonically 'disappear' from the equation!
Marco.
Cheers Marco.
I'm using a set of Mark's HD2000 (copper Wbt) just now, you think its worth getting them reterminated with the silver bullets as a future upgrade?
Most definitely. The copper WBTs are excellent, but there's something about the Eichmanns which is, sonically, rather special.
They certainly don't look like anything special, but then that's the whole point: they're designed purely for achieving the ultimate performance (lack of 'RCA plug design effect'), a design which many consider is flawed, not on what looks blingy!
Marco.
Most definitely. The copper WBTs are excellent, but there's something about the Eichmanns which is, sonically, rather special.
They certainly don't look like anything special, but then that's the whole point: they're designed purely for achieving the ultimate performance (lack of 'RCA plug design effect'), a design which many consider is flawed, not on what looks blingy!
Marco.
Good enough for you (checks signature..) good enough for me!
Just curious for the future, cheers ta.
I bought a set of copper Eichman RCA connecters a few weeks ago. I’m using them on a set of the twin shielded Belkin RCA cables. I bought them because I think they’re a good idea.
I can’t honestly say they’ve made the slightest difference to the sound, but the engineering is cool and they even measure differently to the usual metal heavy RCA plugs and I like them so they’re staying.
I use them for guest kit. The majority of the other connections in my system are hard wired.
They are a pain in the arse to solder using the Belkin cables.
Like a bit of tinkering myself John when I've got the time :eyebrows:. Your tinkering has helped quite a few people BTW.
It's very kind of you to say so Brian. :)
brian2957
01-08-2012, 11:54
Only telling it how it is mate :) . I include myself high on that list BTW. I'm sitting here listening to a very nice purpose - built server because of your ( and others ) posting about file audio on this forum.
Ali Tait
01-08-2012, 12:31
Cheers Marco.
I'm using a set of Mark's HD2000 (copper Wbt) just now, you think its worth getting them reterminated with the silver bullets as a future upgrade?
Bring/post to me and I'll do them for you when you get the plugs mate.
brian2957
01-08-2012, 12:38
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/rca_plugs.html
Bring/post to me and I'll do them for you when you get the plugs mate.
Cheers Ali. :)
Figlet108
04-08-2012, 19:47
Sorry chaps, been really busy and only now got a chance to contribute here...
...The TFS bettered it, giving a more spacious acoustic around voices and instruments with deeper and wider soundstage, but there really wasn't a great deal in it. I suspect the majority of the difference is down to the linear supply of the TFS...
Apart from the PSU, other factors I suspect include not having any fans or moving parts to create electrical or electromagnetic noise and the quality of the motherboard itself - the components used and how it handles power regulation and distribution.
...Once we had tried the stuff we all wanted to, we settled down to listening to the TFS with the valve dac, and Gary, being a knowledgeable chap on JRiver, had a look at the various settings. First thing we found was that the TFS ships with version 16, so we upgraded this to the latest version. Unfortunately, this is not free to do, but it's only 18 dollars and well worth it IMHO, as there was a definate improvement in sound quality...
Interesting. I never really heard much difference between 16 and 17 with my settings and setup.
He also looked at other settings, and we changed the digital output from ASIO to another I can't remember at the moment, I'm sure Gary will clarify. This again was an improvement.
Don't know about digital out, but for analogue out ASIO sounds clearly better in my opinion, which is why it's set as the stock default.
Lastly, he suggested trying Fideliser, which optimises the server for music playback, shutting down unnecessary processes. Also well worth a go IMHO, especially as it's free!
I have tried this in the past, but again, in my setup I never heard any difference.
(I've also tried Jplay and actually didn't like it at all - much preferred native JRiver)
Jason, don't know if you've tried these tweaks yourself, I know you spent a lot of time tweaking the TFS, but I really think the changes I've detailed here are worth doing, as I found them all an improvement from how it was when it arrived. Perhaps you can try them and let us know what you think?
I will definitely try Fideliser again.
I'm also going to get hold of a couple of external DACs and try out the different output modes for digital out.
Figlet108
04-08-2012, 19:58
I don't know what exactly is being fed, but there are two leads from the TFS power supply to the pc bit, one has three pins, the other has 5 or 6, can't remember and I'm not at home to look, so there is certainly more than one supply going into the pc. I'm pretty sure after hearing Brian's server built by Gary that it's the linear supplies that really lift the performance of the TFS.
The two leads only have different pins so that you can't plug them in the wrong sockets and blow the TFS :)
The 4-pin lead plugs into the sound card but only uses 3 pins: +/-/0
The 3-pin lead is for the motherboard itself.
There are 2 very large toroidals on the PSU box.
Figlet108
04-08-2012, 20:22
...I work in IT, so I do end up looking at things differently to most.
I would be interested to try and hear the difference between a linear PSU and switched-mode for one of these setups, unfortunately neither of my current systems would be any use for this...
It's an interesting experiment that I would encourage you to try if you get the chance. In the R&D stage of the TFS I did exactly that experiment and the difference was simply that the linear PSU version sounded alive and had a spark to it whereas without the linear PSU the sound was more dull and lifeless. I did a fun experiment with my wife where she picked the linear PSU version every time (although I still don't think she really understands what was going on that day :) )
For fear of repeating myself, an external DAC (or USB soundcard, I suppose) will always sound better than an internal offering. There's no getting away from the benefits of proper isolation on analogue signal.
Well as a generalisation and with money no object, of course you are right. But there are plenty of poor/average external DACs out there. And there are also very few exceptional internal soundcards (especially without modification).
But I do think there is a market for an all-in-one product that combines the best of both worlds: excellent sound built in, in addition to being a top transport for external DACs
Ali Tait
04-08-2012, 20:55
Jason, I think it's wasapi event style, I'll check later. Definitely an improvement through the valve dac, as was updating jriver. Both were easily discernible improvements.
ZebuTheOxen
04-08-2012, 22:36
But I do think there is a market for an all-in-one product that combines the best of both worlds: excellent sound built in, in addition to being a top transport for external DACs.
The TFS fits into that envelope of all-in-one very well. I was speaking much more generally about PC / DAC combinations. If I do get the opportunity to try it out an audio PC with a linear PSU, I will definitely give it a spin.
I'm happy having separate boxes for PC and DAC, even if they don't have glowing pillars about them. :eyebrows:
Figlet108
06-08-2012, 09:15
I'm happy having separate boxes for PC and DAC, even if they don't have glowing pillars about them. :eyebrows:
All the magic happens in those glowing pillars :)
No harm to Jason, sorry mate :), but getting some perspective to the thread it wasn't night and day between the TFS and Brians homebuild server.
Just being my usual tight fisted Scotsman and saying you don't have to spend £££ to get a great server solution.
I'm sure there's a lot of guys reading that cant afford to spend big bucks on a server.
Different products for different markets I guess, but in terms of absolute sound quality, both are good.
Pays yer money yada yada.
Just being my usual tight fisted Scotsman and saying you don't have to spend £££ to get a great server solution.
What Gary said . . . .
Like anything in audio, you can spend a fortune if you want to, but you can also do it for a few hundred pounds. If you have an old computer, you could even scavenge parts - you don't need a powerful machine to play audio. IMO (and many others), less is more ;)
Figlet108
06-08-2012, 22:12
What Gary said . . . .
Like anything in audio, you can spend a fortune if you want to, but you can also do it for a few hundred pounds. If you have an old computer, you could even scavenge parts - you don't need a powerful machine to play audio. IMO (and many others), less is more ;)
Tim, if someone is capable of building their own pc then of course they can build a streamer to connect to an external DAC and do it for a few hundred pounds and it will sound good (as long as the DAC is half decent). Pretty much any old bunch of PC parts will do a decent job in that case.
For a good while I was just streaming from a laptop to an Airport Express and was perfectly happy. That cost about £70 since I already had a laptop.
If you want a supported commercial device that is completely silent with no fans, a top linear PSU, a good built in DAC, a slot-loading blu-ray drive running Windows and all in a fancy hifi case (with glowing feet :) ) that doen't look like a PC, it's going to cost more...
If you want the best bang for the buck, simply buy an Airport Express (assuming you already have a laptop). That's not going to sound night and day worse than the average homegrown PC build in my experience.
On the other hand I'd recommend anyone to have a go and build their own PC streamer. It's very rewarding and stimulating building your own stuff, and it's not that hard to do a half decent job of it.
And why stop there. Building basic amps is also within the grasp of many of us even if we don't think we could do it. Speakers are probably the hardest to self-build, but in the end I think many of us on these forums could probably build an entire system that would sound pretty good.
Pretty much any old bunch of PC parts will do a decent job in that case.
Not sure I would totally agree about 'any old bunch of PC parts', I think you may have misunderstood exactly what I meant, but no worry, I perhaps didn't explain myself so well. But I do agree you can get an exceptionally good sound without spending a fortune. My current streamer is running at around £500 so far and I'm fairly confident it would be in the same ball park as the TFS. In fact when I inquired a lot of the components are identical, apart from the PSU, which is one of my next upgrades. I also have an external DAC as opposed to a sound card.
I also agree its very satisfying to build your own.
bobbasrah
07-08-2012, 06:27
On the other hand I'd recommend anyone to have a go and build their own PC streamer. It's very rewarding and stimulating building your own stuff, and it's not that hard to do a half decent job of it.
And why stop there. Building basic amps is also within the grasp of many of us even if we don't think we could do it. Speakers are probably the hardest to self-build, but in the end I think many of us on these forums could probably build an entire system that would sound pretty good.
:cool:
Agreed 90% Tim. ;)
A PC is pretty easy to put together, and some thought in the selection of parts can produce a stunning source.
The variety of DAC designs out there in the DIY world is frankly amazing nowadays, with some having been painstakingly tweaked very much in evidence.
Designing speakers is not so simple, but building them to a design someone else developed is a breeze IME and I have built all my own except for one pair which are currently gathering dust.... :rolleyes:
How they are finished cosmetically is the hardest part IMHO.....:scratch:
Figlet108
07-08-2012, 10:17
:cool:
Agreed 90% Tim. ;)
...
How they are finished cosmetically is the hardest part IMHO.....:scratch:
Hi Bob,
yes agreed - especially if you are more skilled as a techie rather than in carpentry.
I really fancy my hand at producing a high gloss black finish, but when I researched it I could see that it was just never going to happen - a lot of very hard skilled work in my opinion...
(btw, I'm Jason not Tim :) )
Tim, if someone is capable of building their own pc then of course they can build a streamer to connect to an external DAC and do it for a few hundred pounds and it will sound good (as long as the DAC is half decent). Pretty much any old bunch of PC parts will do a decent job in that case.
For a good while I was just streaming from a laptop to an Airport Express and was perfectly happy. That cost about £70 since I already had a laptop.
If you want a supported commercial device that is completely silent with no fans, a top linear PSU, a good built in DAC, a slot-loading blu-ray drive running Windows and all in a fancy hifi case (with glowing feet :) ) that doen't look like a PC, it's going to cost more...
If you want the best bang for the buck, simply buy an Airport Express (assuming you already have a laptop). That's not going to sound night and day worse than the average homegrown PC build in my experience.
On the other hand I'd recommend anyone to have a go and build their own PC streamer. It's very rewarding and stimulating building your own stuff, and it's not that hard to do a half decent job of it.
And why stop there. Building basic amps is also within the grasp of many of us even if we don't think we could do it. Speakers are probably the hardest to self-build, but in the end I think many of us on these forums could probably build an entire system that would sound pretty good.
Good post Jason.
Having seen the TFS in the flesh it is VERY different from your standard computer and looks more like a piece of (very)high end hifi and was the best sounding bit of kit in our last get together.
(not by a million miles though ;))
Yeah...Its a premium product and you can selfbuild for cheaper, but there's more to the TFS than my own server and the one I built for Brian.
But not all of it is related to absolute sound quality...
and you know what? That's fine.
Pride of ownership, ongoing technical support of a commercial product means a lot to people, especially when it comes to computers which (as we all know :)) can go tits up when it suits it.
Not everyone can build or maintain their own server systems, but we all love our hifi so this is where products like Jasons TFS is very appealing.
Some people will pay more than the TFS for an interconnect cable so that puts things into a different perspective.
The different levels of entry to hifi have always split opinion and in MY opinion computer audio is a bit of a leveller.
Its just starting to mature and as we go along I think its becoming evident that software choice and tweaking can affect sound quality, not just hardware.
Carefully chosen components with the right software and settings can produce a very high quality digital transport for not a helluva lot of your hard earned.
Following a great thread HERE:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19587
BUT...not everyone can or wants to selfbuild and even if you do its all about deciding your compromises...
You want more you pay more.
What you pay for though isn't always related to absolute sound quality though and like many consumer products (Apple, I'm looking at you here) component and manufacture cost does not always reflect the final cost to the consumer.
My only point Jason was that there are different markets for computer servers as there are any branch of hifi.
The benefits of paying more can be worth it, but not always in terms of absolute sound quality.
Personally, as someone who can build and maintain my own server and can't afford to shell out a lot of money on hifi I personally wouldn't buy one.
Bottom line though, the TFS is worth the money, if its worth it to YOU.
Cracking bit of kit and good luck with it mate. :)
atb
Gaz.
Figlet108
07-08-2012, 10:39
... My current streamer is running at around £500 so far and I'm fairly confident it would be in the same ball park as the TFS. In fact when I inquired a lot of the components are identical, apart from the PSU, which is one of my next upgrades. I also have an external DAC as opposed to a sound card.
Yes, it will be very similar if you've based it on the at3iont-i deluxe and you are using the same software stack.
I assume you didn't bother with a sound card if you are using an external DAC.
What DAC are you using by the way - same as Ali's?
I'd highly recommend upgrading the PSU if you get the chance, it made a appreciable improvement to my ears.
Also, Marco found (and I confirmed it with mine at home) that moving the PSU away from the PC made a noticeable improvement. Although that might only have affected the internal DAC and not be significant with an external DAC (i.e. keeping the PSU away from the DAC is the significant point not away from the computer)
I was going to go on and get defensive about the price of the TFS but then I found a post you made in another thread about the price of the TFS that summed up what I was going to say:
"I do have to add a small comment about the digs on price by some..... yes some of us can probably build the same or similar for less, but that's a component price..... I'm not sure what price I would put on how many hours of blood sweat and tears I have spent getting to where I am now, how much is that worth? But much more importantly, the number of people that are capable of doing such a thing is very small, even on this forum. My best mate has been hugely impressed by my server, but wouldn't have a clue how to build one and would happily pay the asking price of the TFS. A fully developed and marketed product is never going to be anything near how much 'you can buy the bits for'. It's just ridiculous to compare the two IMO and then the producers also need to make a profit, or what's the point in doing it? "
The normal price of £2200 is fair. The £1800 for the last 2 remaining TFSes in the current run is a bargain, and the £1500 that Ali paid for an ex-demo TFS is a steal. Anything less than that and I'm just making a loss and it's not worth bothering with.
Figlet108
07-08-2012, 11:21
Good post Jason.
Having seen the TFS in the flesh it is VERY different from your standard computer and looks more like a piece of (very)high end hifi and was the best sounding bit of kit in our last get together.
(not by a million miles though ;))
Yeah...Its a premium product and you can selfbuild for cheaper, but there's more to the TFS than my own server and the one I built for Brian.
But not all of it is related to absolute sound quality...
and you know what? That's fine.
Pride of ownership, ongoing technical support of a commercial product means a lot to people, especially when it comes to computers which (as we all know :)) can go tits up when it suits it.
Not everyone can build or maintain their own server systems, but we all love our hifi so this is where products like Jasons TFS is very appealing.
Some people will pay more than the TFS for an interconnect cable so that puts things into a different perspective.
The different levels of entry to hifi have always split opinion and in MY opinion computer audio is a bit of a leveller.
Its just starting to mature and as we go along I think its becoming evident that software choice and tweaking can affect sound quality, not just hardware.
Carefully chosen components with the right software and settings can produce a very high quality digital transport for not a helluva lot of your hard earned.
Following a great thread HERE:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19587
BUT...not everyone can or wants to selfbuild and even if you do its all about deciding your compromises...
You want more you pay more.
What you pay for though isn't always related to absolute sound quality though and like many consumer products (Apple, I'm looking at you here) component and manufacture cost does not always reflect the final cost to the consumer.
My only point Jason was that there are different markets for computer servers as there are any branch of hifi.
The benefits of paying more can be worth it, but not always in terms of absolute sound quality.
Personally, as someone who can build and maintain my own server and can't afford to shell out a lot of money on hifi I personally wouldn't buy one.
Bottom line though, the TFS is worth the money, if its worth it to YOU.
Cracking bit of kit and good luck with it mate. :)
atb
Gaz.
Yep, great post Gaz, I agree with pretty much everything you said and it brings up some interesting points.
In my view from a business perspective getting into the budget streamer market is a road to ruin. Lots and lots of effort for very little margin and everyone always complaining that 'it's just a computer' and they can (or know a mate) that can build it for cheaper.
I think that unless there is added value either from the perspective of absolute sound, flexibility, ease of use, features, aesthetics etc that pushes the streamer into the more premium market the enterprise will faileither financially or from overwork.
I doubt you will see any of the established traditional hifi brands produce a budget streamer.
Ali Tait
07-08-2012, 12:02
Yep, good posts Gaz and Jason. Personally, I would hesitate to spend 2.2k on a server, but am very happy at the price I paid, and I think it's a great sounding piece of kit. Yes, the server Gary built is in the same ballpark SQ wise, but I suspect considerably more would have to be spent to equal the TFS. It's the old diminishing returns formula kicking in - you need to spend a lot to get that last 10 - 20 % hike in sound quality.
That's not to say the TFS is not worth 2.2k, it undoubtedly is IMHO from a commercial point of view. There are servers from well known manufacurers that cost considerably more, even several times more. Doubt they can be appreciably better than the TFS though. Be interesting to compare sometime.
There is also the fact that the dac Nick built for me is greatly responsible for the sound I'm getting. It is clearly superior to the TFS' inbuilt dac.
The normal price of £2200 is fair. The £1800 for the last 2 remaining TFSes in the current run is a bargain, and the £1500 that Ali paid for an ex-demo TFS is a steal. Anything less than that and I'm just making a loss and it's not worth bothering with.
I couldn't agree more Jason, I personally think your pricing is very fair and lets be honest what sort of performance would you get from a similarly priced CDP? I have not heard a TFS but I would be willing to bet my no claims bonus it easily exceeds Red Book players pound for pound on performance, but I'm biased. I was really pleased by Marco's comments too.
Thanks for the tip re power supply, it is the area I intend to explore with my next build (where does it stop?). Its also funny you should mention the location of the PSU, as I moved my streamer this weekend to the top of my equipment rack, which meant I had to move the PSU closer and plug it into a different plug socket. Previously the unit had been plugged into an outlet on its own, located on the other side of my lounge. This left the brick approx 5/6 feet away from the streamer. Now its quite close and the difference in performance is noticeable, so much so it left me scratching my head as I couldn't work out why it had changed. I moved the brick back to its previous location and voilà, problem solved.
Of course I bet if you 'measured' this in both locations, you would get the same result so the sound difference must all be in my head ;)
I finally got to listen to my new music server last night after a 3 week wait while on holiday.
The V-Link II was waiting for me when I got home, so everything was plugged in and switched on. While on hols at my in-laws in France, I'd optimised the windows setup, installed Jriver, Fidelizer etc. so there was no excuse for it not to work.
It sounds great.
I haven't compared it to my old Apple Tv yet.
I can play my FLACs, AACs and ALAC files through JRiver, controlled with my iPad and JRemote and also (with a bit of fiddling) play music from Spotify Premium.
To access the Spotify service, I need to use LogMeIn remote desktop on the iPad. This allows me to use the server without switching the TV on.
Next step is to fire up my NAS drive and use that to store the music files, then I need to remove the wireless card from the unit (just in case it's causing noise), disable anything that's not being used etc. Then maybe change the HDD for an SSD - the list goes on :rolleyes:
The unit also made a great portable PC when I was in France, as I was able to stream TV from the UK to catch up on team GB at the olympics each day :)
Cheers,
Martin - check out Remoteless for Spotify - http://remoteless.no/ - might do the trick? (Not tried the iPad version, though the iPhone/Pod version is good. Getting a complete re-release soon, too - http://blog.remoteless.no/2012/08/03/remoteless-for-spotify-2-0/.)
Humm, i use Spot Remote to good effect, but im not sure if that's a Mac only solution?
Works fine though! Not as good as Spotify's own interface, but quite acceptable.
/Mike
Martin - check out Remoteless for Spotify - http://remoteless.no/ - might do the trick? (Not tried the iPad version, though the iPhone/Pod version is good. Getting a complete re-release soon, too - http://blog.remoteless.no/2012/08/03/remoteless-for-spotify-2-0/.)
Cheers for the tip Alex, will check it out when I get a spare 5 mins.
Cheers,
Spotimote Free (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jbl.android.spotimote&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwyLDEsImNvbS5qY mwuYW5kcm9pZC5zcG90aW1vdGUiXQ..) is rather good if you have access to an Android device Martin?
brian2957
28-08-2012, 16:02
Well I've been using my new music server for about 8 weeks now and I must say that it has totally changed my listening ( and viewing ) experience . The convenience and ease of use are something to behold , and that says something coming from a computer 'idiot ' like me . JRiver is simplicity itself to use once set up properly and coupled with Fidelizer provides me with superb quality music playback . All this controlled by a wireless keyboard , a wireless mouse , or an Android phone , on my 37 inch plasma screen . . Amazing ! I haven't listened to so much music for a very long time , sometimes all day.
I can also use this as a DVD player and surf the internet if it takes my fancy . This is , in short .a complete multimedia system . Probably all I'll ever need for the very near future. I've learned a lot since I found this forum and my system has totally changed over the last year , in my case it's just got better and better. Cheers lads :cool:
I haven't listened to so much music for a very long time, sometimes all day.
Exactly my experience too Brian, I get so much more from my music now than I ever did. I play more of my collection and for much longer, it is by a long, long way the best thing I've ever done in relation to my enjoyment of music.
brian2957
28-08-2012, 16:22
Yes mate , I now listen to albums I haven't listened to for years because they've become so visible . Totally enjoying the whole experience . I've been watching developments in your system with interest over the last while Tim . I have no wish to upgrade in the near future , but who knows . This area of music reproduction is advancing rapidly .
bobbasrah
28-08-2012, 16:38
.............I can also use this as a DVD player and surf the internet if it takes my fancy....
DVD? WTF? :scratch:
Without going back to check on the motherboards graphic capabilities Brian, it should be plenty able to handle hi-def, so you will get a shock going from DVD to 720 and 1080 videos also... :stalks:
First film I ever watched in 1080 was Anthony Hopkins portrayal of Bert in "The World's Fastest Indian", and I was gobsmacked.... Brilliant film also...:eyebrows:
Agreed with you Brian, and Tim, despite using different methods, the enjoyment factor is so accessible, and it can only get better.....;)
brian2957
28-08-2012, 16:49
Thanks Bob ,never thought of this . I'll look into it and report back . :)
[DVD? WTF? :scratch:
Without going back to check on the motherboards graphic capabilities Brian, it should be plenty able to handle hi-def, so you will get a shock going from DVD to 720 and 1080 videos also... :stalks:
First film I ever watched in 1080 was Anthony Hopkins portrayal of Bert in "The World's Fastest Indian", and I was gobsmacked.... Brilliant film also...:eyebrows:
Agreed with you Brian, and Tim, despite using different methods, the enjoyment factor is so accessible, and it can only get better.....;)
Yup, it'll do 1080p movies without breakin' a sweat.
The Sandybridge G840 and H61 chipset has plenty grunt for your BluRay movies straight from the hard drive.
Playing through Jriver should give you the best video quality possible.
Jriver really is the best audio and the best video player for windows.
The Audio/video advanced setup modes really make the difference.
I've tried a lot of 'em and none comes close.
brian2957
28-08-2012, 19:57
Then this fantastic piece of kit just got even better mate :D I'll be playing with it for the next few days to see what it can do.
bobbasrah
28-08-2012, 20:07
Then this fantastic piece of kit just got even better mate :D I'll be playing with it for the next few days to see what it can do.
Boy oh boy are you in for an experience once you've stopped playing with it etc.....;)
Then this fantastic piece of kit just got even better mate :D I'll be playing with it for the next few days to see what it can do.
Brian, I've just set up 320k online radio playlists on Jriver :)
Classic Rock, Classical and Jazz.
The Linn stations are particularly good, used to listen to them on the Touch.
Sounds better on Jriver!
I can drop you the playlist file, just import it to Jriver mate.
brian2957
28-08-2012, 20:28
OK go for it mate :)
Ali Tait
28-08-2012, 20:43
Send them to me too please mate.
brian2957
28-08-2012, 20:52
Do you think they'll reach the' Kingdom' mate :lol: Hope you are well BTW :cool:
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