A session with the Doctor

[MikeMusic]

Very happy to see the Doctor last night (Martin T)
Quick play of new to me Rega Isis of which more later
Then onto vinyl the point of the session

LP12/Aro/Lyra Dorian - ok. Well it was to me :)
Low level modified Technics compared well. I want to do more comparisons in days to come but I think the Techie won
Martin's super high level modified Technics next, a definite step up
but
the biggest improvement with Martins SUT and Whest Phono Pre amp
Seems like my Naim 82 phono cards are stopping the music getting through.
Confirmed - Back to the low level modified Technics with the SUT and the Whest and it wasn't *that* far behind Martin's NASA special
So to get the music I need to buy some more boxes

I always thought Carmel did a funny strangling thing on some vocals.
Not her. It was my system that was strangling her, sorry Carmel.
Tony Williams shown to be an even better drummer than I already knew.
Boy can he thump them drums
After visiting Martin with Marco I wanted my system to get as naked in presentation as his.
First step has to be a SUT and a phono pre amp
Then I will be able to see more clearly what else needs to be sorted

Some background
Room may need some work
Dedicated mains circuit
PS Audio PPP fed by Kimber sliver reference
LP12 and Technics fed by Kimber silver Classic
Naim 82 with 2 HiCaps with Kimber Signatures
Naim 500 fed from HiCaps with Kimber KCAG and Kimber Signature
Isobariks 7000 model numbers
All sitting on various Mana soundbases, racks and reference tops

[DSJR]

I was going to make a sarcy comment about Naim, but since I bash 'em too much I thought better of it. The 82 with Supercap is a competent product, but a Croft 25 eats it alive. I've gone way beyond thinking that the more expensive the box the better as I went down that route decades ago - when Isobariks were thought to be good speakers - and it's a hiding to nothing generally.

The LP12 setup you have will have a delicate touch I reckon, lacking the both-feet slam of the Techie but also lacking the clank of the Linn arm equipped LP12's I think. The ARO is a great arm limited by the decks it used to be mounted on. of course, the Naim Directors' Pension Fund has got in the way and it was priced accordingly, but a great product nonetheless IMO.

Time to flog the Naims methinks. None of them are really as good as a typical Croft setup, power and facilities aside IMO, let alone other things I've heard such as the expensive Albarry pre and power let alone other makes I'm less familiar with...

One thing at a time. You'll get there eventually. Did you hear the NAS Dias when at HiFi Daves place? It out Lp12's the LP12 in ALL areas and should give a sooper dooper freaked out techie a darned good run for its money as well :)

[jandl100]

I was going to make a sarcy comment about Naim ...

I must admit that was my first thought as well.

You don't need high price gear to let the music through .... really, you don't .... but you do need to escape from that old fashioned Flat Earth Naim thing.

Try some non-Naim swapperoos in your own system - Croft? Yes, good - but so is a lot of other kit. I think you'll be more than a bit surprised. ;)

Just IMO. :)

[MikeMusic]

I was going to make a sarcy comment about Naim, but since I bash 'em too much I thought better of it. The 82 with Supercap is a competent product, but a Croft 25 eats it alive. I've gone way beyond thinking that the more expensive the box the better as I went down that route decades ago - when Isobariks were thought to be good speakers - and it's a hiding to nothing generally.

The LP12 setup you have will have a delicate touch I reckon, lacking the both-feet slam of the Techie but also lacking the clank of the Linn arm equipped LP12's I think. The ARO is a great arm limited by the decks it used to be mounted on. of course, the Naim Directors' Pension Fund has got in the way and it was priced accordingly, but a great product nonetheless IMO.

Time to flog the Naims methinks. None of them are really as good as a typical Croft setup, power and facilities aside IMO, let alone other things I've heard such as the expensive Albarry pre and power let alone other makes I'm less familiar with...

One thing at a time. You'll get there eventually. Did you hear the NAS Dias when at HiFi Daves place? It out Lp12's the LP12 in ALL areas and should give a sooper dooper freaked out techie a darned good run for its money as well :)
I'm after as much music as I can cram into my ears.
My Linn/Naim history goes back to mid 80s when I compared LP12/Ittok/(not sure), Naim 32, 250, Isobariks to a Meridian M10 active set up.
Lack of time and complacency kept me there although Grahams upped me to a 32.5 and 2 x 135s. I kept on the Naim trail with the Aro, 82 and 500.
I seem to do around 2-3 things at a time and get a bit lost sometimes :)
David made a good case for the Nottingham (NAS ?) and I'd like to hear one against a Technics and fully modded LP12
For the time being seems I can be safely buy a SUT and a Phono Pre amp to use with this or future kit
I'm happy to donate space for a NAS - Technics - LP12 test any time after the Tour de France is over.
Anyone up for it ?

[MikeMusic]

I must admit that was my first thought as well.

You don't need high price gear to let the music through .... really, you don't .... but you do need to escape from that old fashioned Flat Earth Naim thing.

Try some non-Naim swapperoos in your own system - Croft? Yes, good - but so is a lot of other kit. I think you'll be more than a bit surprised. ;)

Just IMO. :)
I have a soft spot for Naim, mostly by living with them for so long.
but
I'm after more music, preferably as cheap as possible !
:)
Maybe flogging the Naim can fund better

[hifi_dave]

Mike, in our conversations I have never tried to sell you anything or attempted to make you change any components but....... you can do an awful lot better for a lot less money.

The way I hear it (stand by for criticism) your system is being strangled at both ends. A decent phono stage, which doesn't have to be expensive and some more revealing speakers will open up the system like you've had your ears syringed.

You know where I am if you want a change of life..:)

[DSJR]

I come from a time working in the industry for one of Linn and Naim's top three dealers where, like all the other sheep, that "I like Naim amps, they SOUND DIFFERENT TO EVERYTHING ELSE, therefore EVERYTHING ELSE IS WRONG!!!!!!"

Now, I do appreciate the 82 and later power amps have tamed the excesses somewhat, but the fact remains that the designs are heavily set in the 1950's, weren't properly updated apparently when the amp circuit was modified for PNP transistors (I think I have it the right way round) and the preamp circuit suffers noise on the mc inputs (and sometimes on line as well), the gains are all wrong for modern sources, band limiting which modern power amps don't strictly need and having the regulators remote isn't the best place to have them, when ideally they should be on the board next to the stage they're regulating (didn't PFM have a "Flea" board which did just that to a basic 82 circuit?)

Nah, I think Naim are gradually fading out their old two channel stuff and putting their energies into the integrated and streaming area. All you ever read on the main forums (apart from theirs), is talk of thirty year old stuff and how to update and upgrade it, or talk of Supernaits etc.....


Now, Rega Isis. Was it the valve one?


The dealer you mentioned in Nth London? "You - will - do - as - we - tell - you - and - buy - only - our - recommended - products - since - we - are - programmed - to - know - better - than - you....."

[jandl100]

You'll get good money selling the CDX2 - buy a Beresford Bushmaster DAC with a linear PSU and a decent (stable-platter Pioneer?) CDP as a transport. :thumbsup: ... I honestly don't think it can be beaten in a significant way - I've never heard better, and I've heard and owned lots of hi-price kit ... lots of £££ left over to fund your turntable/amps etc. ;)

[MikeMusic]

Mike, in our conversations I have never tried to sell you anything or attempted to make you change any components but....... you can do an awful lot better for a lot less money.

The way I hear it (stand by for criticism) your system is being strangled at both ends. A decent phono stage, which doesn't have to be expensive and some more revealing speakers will open up the system like you've had your ears syringed.

You know where I am if you want a change of life..:)
I probably haven't told anyone here I'm a recycled salesman so I can take a bit of salesmanship if crafted well :)
(I always like to help people as much as I can and all being well they will want to come to me for printing)
Please keep talking
From last night the strangling is taking place in the phono section. I think the rest, at the moment (!) is good.
I'd be very glad to hear what you recommend, and I think I have an inkling of some or all of it.
Be great to hear this kit up against another set of recommendations.

[MikeMusic]

I come from a time working in the industry for one of Linn and Naim's top three dealers where, like all the other sheep, that "I like Naim amps, they SOUND DIFFERENT TO EVERYTHING ELSE, therefore EVERYTHING ELSE IS WRONG!!!!!!"

Now, I do appreciate the 82 and later power amps have tamed the excesses somewhat, but the fact remains that the designs are heavily set in the 1950's, weren't properly updated apparently when the amp circuit was modified for PNP transistors (I think I have it the right way round) and the preamp circuit suffers noise on the mc inputs (and sometimes on line as well), the gains are all wrong for modern sources, band limiting which modern power amps don't strictly need and having the regulators remote isn't the best place to have them, when ideally they should be on the board next to the stage they're regulating (didn't PFM have a "Flea" board which did just that to a basic 82 circuit?)

Nah, I think Naim are gradually fading out their old two channel stuff and putting their energies into the integrated and streaming area. All you ever read on the main forums (apart from theirs), is talk of thirty year old stuff and how to update and upgrade it, or talk of Supernaits etc.....

Now, Rega Isis. Was it the valve one?

The dealer you mentioned in Nth London? "You - will - do - as - we - tell - you - and - buy - only - our - recommended - products - since - we - are - programmed - to - know - better - than - you....."

I went off Grahams, forget why. Might have been the "you will be assimilated" outlook.
I'm open to almost anything as long as it sounds good and is nice and cheap :)

Isis is solid state, at a nice price, I thought. If I ever see a valve one .......

[Marco]

Interesting, Mike.

I wasn't sure how well Martin's (or any Techy) would do in a predominantly Naim set-up, as I've heard mine fall flat on its face once, where the rather ruthlessly revealing nature of the Techy (mine being then in a previous, less modified, incarnation) just didn't gel at all with my friend's Naim kit, which preferred 'seeing' the warmer and rather 'bloomier' sonic signature of his Rega P3!

The Techy just sounded too cold and clinical in his set-up, by ultimately showing up the mid-forwardness and grainy quality of the Naim amps, so I'm glad that both the Techies you've heard in your system so far have worked well :)

I'm not surprised that the MC boards in your 82 were outclassed by Martin's Whest and SUT, as I always suspected that those were the biggest limiting factor in your system. Unfortunately, if you want to hear what an MC cartridge can really do, the best solutions aren't cheap. I'm also glad that you appear to be another convert to SUTs, which IMO, when properly matched to the right cartridge, are the finest way to hear music from those humble bits of black plastic.

Anyway, I'm glad you guys had a good time. I look forward to reading Martin's impressions of the evening, in due course :cool:

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

You'll get good money selling the CDX2 - buy a Beresford Bushmaster DAC with a linear PSU and a decent (stable-platter Pioneer?) CDP as a transport. :thumbsup: ... I honestly don't think it can be beaten in a significant way - I've never heard better, and I've heard and owned lots of hi-price kit ... lots of £££ left over to fund your turntable/amps etc. ;)
Maybe a Bushmaster to help the Isis along. Haven't properly tested the Isis yet as the object last night was vinyl.

[MikeMusic]

Interesting, Mike.

I wasn't sure how well Martin's (or any Techy) would do in a predominantly Naim set-up, as I've heard mine fall flat on its face once, where the rather ruthlessly revealing nature of the Techy (mine being then in a previous, less modified, incarnation) just didn't gel at all with my friend's Naim kit, which preferred 'seeing' the warmer and rather 'bloomier' sonic signature of his Rega P3!

The Techy just sounded too cold and clinical in his set-up, by ultimately showing up the mid-forwardness and grainy quality of the Naim amps, so I'm glad that both the Techies you've heard in your system so far have worked well :)

I'm not surprised that the MC boards in your 82 were outclassed by Martin's Whest and SUT, as I always suspected that those were the biggest limiting factor in your system. Unfortunately, if you want to hear what an MC cartridge can really do, the best solutions aren't cheap. I'm also glad that you appear to be another convert to SUTs, which IMO, when properly matched to the right cartridge, are the finest way to hear music from those humble bits of black plastic.

Anyway, I'm glad you guys had a good time. I look forward to reading Martin's impressions of the evening :cool:

Marco.
I was at the start of the road for a SUT and phono pre amp. Last night cemented that as a must do.
Even Martin's Techie wasn't that good sounding without the SUT and Whest
The 82 cards really are an impediment

[DSJR]

The Isis valve player is wonderful and shouldn't ever need any add-ons to make it "better." What's the point in a Bushmaster for such a device? Better to buy an Apollo R or Arcam for use as a transport for playing CD's IMO...

[MikeMusic]

The Isis valve player is wonderful and shouldn't ever need any add-ons to make it "better." What's the point in a Bushmaster for such a device? Better to buy an Apollo R or Arcam for use as a transport for playing CD's IMO...
Good. Least amount of boxes and technology possible.
I will post more about the Isis when I have had a session with it

[MartinT]

Thanks for the evening of equipment swapping, good food and great music, Mike. Thoroughly enjoyable and always something new to learn. I now have a shopping list of records to hunt down, too.

As I heard it (in summary):

Your Linn deck into Naim phono stage: pretty muddy sound, lacking in clarity, with rolled off treble, rolled off bass but it did do that rhythmic thing that Linn/Naim systems do well, so not all was lost. Next to no image or soundstage. The Lyra cartridge seemed to suit the Linn.

Your Techie deck into Naim phono stage: small degree of better clarity, slightly more extended but not well-defined bass, rhythm at least as good as the Linn. The Denon DL-103 seemed to suit the Techie.

My Techie deck into Naim phono stage: another incremental improvement in clarity, dynamics and more potent bass. It still sounded somewhat muddy and strangled, though. Definitely suspecting the phono stage by now.

My Techie deck into my SUT and phono preamp (this had to be done in one go because of cabling complications): very large improvement in definition, clarity, dynamics, treble extension, bass tightness. Vocals properly soared. Drums were well defined. Cymbals were audible where they had hardly been there earlier. The Isobariks imaged for the first time!

Your Techie deck into my SUT and phono preamp: some incremental losses, especially in the now less defined bass area. However, all the essentials were in place and this was much better than running it into your Naim phono stage.

My gear (for reference): Technics SL-1210 with Dynavector DV507-II arm, Shelter 5000 cartridge, Paul Hynes SR-5, lots of internal regs & mods; Choir Audio SUT-H7; Whest PS.30R phono preamp.

[MikeMusic]

Thanks for the evening of equipment swapping, good food and great music, Mike. Thoroughly enjoyable and always something new to learn. I now have a shopping list of records to hunt down, too.

As I heard it (in summary):

Your Linn deck into Naim phono stage: pretty muddy sound, lacking in clarity, with rolled off treble, rolled off bass but it did do that rhythmic thing that Linn/Naim systems do well, so not all was lost. Next to no image or soundstage. The Lyra cartridge seemed to suit the Linn.

Your Techie deck into Naim phono stage: small degree of better clarity, slightly more extended but not well-defined bass, rhythm at least as good as the Linn. The Denon DL-103 seemed to suit the Techie.

My Techie deck into Naim phono stage: another incremental improvement in clarity, dynamics and more potent bass. It still sounded somewhat muddy and strangled, though. Definitely suspecting the phono stage by now.

My Techie deck into my SUT and phono preamp (this had to be done in one go because of cabling complications): very large improvement in definition, clarity, dynamics, treble extension, bass tightness. Vocals properly soared. Drums were well defined. Cymbals were audible where they had hardly been there earlier. The Isobariks imaged for the first time!

Your Techie deck into my SUT and phono preamp: some incremental losses, especially in the now less defined bass area. However, all the essentials were in place and this was much better than running it into your Naim phono stage.

My gear (for reference): Technics SL-1210 with Dynavector DV507-II arm, Shelter 5000 cartridge, Paul Hynes SR-5, lots of internal regs & mods; Choir Audio SUT-H7; Whest PS.30R phono preamp.
That's the definitive version of the evening
:)
Glad to have you there.
I think I was less lost than the last session at your place

[oceanobsession]

Thanks for the evening of equipment swapping, good food and great music, Mike. Thoroughly enjoyable and always something new to learn. I now have a shopping list of records to hunt down, too.

As I heard it (in summary):

Your Linn deck into Naim phono stage: pretty muddy sound, lacking in clarity, with rolled off treble, rolled off bass but it did do that rhythmic thing that Linn/Naim systems do well, so not all was lost. Next to no image or soundstage. The Lyra cartridge seemed to suit the Linn.

Your Techie deck into Naim phono stage: small degree of better clarity, slightly more extended but not well-defined bass, rhythm at least as good as the Linn. The Denon DL-103 seemed to suit the Techie.

My Techie deck into Naim phono stage: another incremental improvement in clarity, dynamics and more potent bass. It still sounded somewhat muddy and strangled, though. Definitely suspecting the phono stage by now.

My Techie deck into my SUT and phono preamp (this had to be done in one go because of cabling complications): very large improvement in definition, clarity, dynamics, treble extension, bass tightness. Vocals properly soared. Drums were well defined. Cymbals were audible where they had hardly been there earlier. The Isobariks imaged for the first time!

Your Techie deck into my SUT and phono preamp: some incremental losses, especially in the now less defined bass area. However, all the essentials were in place and this was much better than running it into your Naim phono stage.

My gear (for reference): Technics SL-1210 with Dynavector DV507-II arm, Shelter 5000 cartridge, Paul Hynes SR-5, lots of internal regs & mods; Choir Audio SUT-H7; Whest PS.30R phono preamp.

Tell us more about these records you are now looking for.cheers phil.

[MartinT]

Peter Hamill - In Camera
Peter Hamill - The Future Now
Pylon - Gyrate
Rainer Ptacek - The Farm
Rainer and Das Combo - Barefoot Rock
Carmel - The Falling
Santana - The Third Album

[Barry]

Since the cartridge, arm and turntable were also changed, it comes as no surprise that it all sounded different.

[MartinT]

You missed the step where we reverted to Mike's turntable with my phono stage/SUT, Barry. The exercise was to find the SQ bottleneck and we were successful in identifying the Naim preamp's phono stage as the lead suspect.

[MikeMusic]

Peter Hamill - In Camera
Peter Hamill - The Future Now
Pylon - Gyrate
Rainer Ptacek - The Farm
Rainer and Das Combo - Barefoot Rock
Carmel - The Falling
Santana - The Third Album
plus
Robert Fripp - Exposure
I mentioned later

[hifi_dave]

You missed the step where we reverted to Mike's turntable with my phono stage/SUT, Barry. The exercise was to find the SQ bottleneck and we were successful in identifying the Naim preamp's phono stage as the lead suspect.

Not really surprising as the phono boards are only a £300 add on.

[chris@panteg]

How did the LP12 sound through the SUT/Whest ? Or did you not try that ?

[MikeMusic]

Not really surprising as the phono boards are only a £300 add on.
One wonders why Naim don't make a Phono stage <looks> oh they do !
Don't remember ever hearing about but then I have lead a sheltered existence only really cottoning on to SUTs and Phono stages about, er very recently.

[MikeMusic]

How did the LP12 sound through the SUT/Whest ? Or did you not try that ?
I will be.
Need some BNC-Phono adaptors which are on their way.
Then I have to persuade the Doctor to call again with his kit
:)

Problem is the music keeps getting in the way of comparing the kit - analysis ?!
Nah lets listen to this all the way through, and this, have you heard this, do you know ....etc etc
:)

Currently listening to the *deluxe* double CD edition of Propaganda - Secret Wish - magic

[Marco]

Not really surprising as the phono boards are only a £300 add on.

Aye, powered by two Hi-Caps (through an 82), which brings the total cost to, erm..........?? ;)

Also, Mike, when was the last time that you had your amps and PSUs re-capped? :)

Marco.

[Beobloke]

One wonders why Naim don't make a Phono stage <looks> oh they do !
Don't remember ever hearing about but then I have lead a sheltered existence only really cottoning on to SUTs and Phono stages about, er very recently.

The Superline is a fabulous bit of kit, assuming you're one of those sensible people who can look at a phono stage that contains no valves without reaching for the garlic, crucifix and silver stake.

But then again, according to most of the comments in this thread it appears your system is rubbish so you might as well save your money... :D

[MikeMusic]

Aye, powered by two Hi-Caps (through an 82), which brings the total cost to, erm..........?? ;)

Also, Mike, when was the last time that you had your amps and PSUs re-capped? :)

Marco.
82 not been done
HiCaps about 2 years ago
500 not required for a long time yet

[MikeMusic]

The Superline is a fabulous bit of kit, assuming you're one of those sensible people who can look at a phono stage that contains no valves without reaching for the garlic, crucifix and silver stake.

But then again, according to most of the comments in this thread it appears your system is rubbish so you might as well save your money... :D

After our play on Tuesday I think my system is good, just needs a SUT and a Phono stage and it will be wonderful - or wonderful enough for the time being
:)

Hadn't thought about valves or ss
<later>
Needs a least a HiCap, or a Supercap as well and a Linn forum says
>but then I heard the Urika and thought it made the Superline sound broken

[Marco]

The Superline is a fabulous bit of kit, assuming you're one of those sensible people who can look at a phono stage that contains no valves without reaching for the garlic, crucifix and silver stake.


Au contraire, mon ami, I've heard the Superline, and consider it excellent; providing that it's being used in an optimally 'sorted' and set-up Naim system, which unfortunately, I suspect that Mike's currently isn't.

Mike, I know you won't mind me saying that, as I know that you're very open-minded and focussed on getting your system to a point where you're satisfied with it, and therefore willing to do whatever is necessary in order to get there :)

When I come down to your place, and trust me I will, after the hols, I plan to advise (and hopefully carry out) some radical reorganising of your kit (including possibly rebuilding your Mana supports, and 'dressing' your cables, a la as Marco knows how)! ;)

In the meantime, matey, it wouldn't be a bad idea getting your 82 re-capped, which I suspect is partly responsible for the current 'maliase'.

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

Mike, I know you won't mind me saying that, as I know that you're very open-minded and focussed on getting your system to a point where you're satisfied with it, and therefore willing to do whatever is necessary to get there :)

When I come down to your place, and trust me I will, after the hols, I plan to advise (and hopefully carry out) some radical reorganising of your kit (including possibly rebuilding your Mana supports, a la as Marco knows how)! ;)

In the meantime, matey, it wouldn't be a bad idea getting your 82 re-capped, which I suspect is partly responsible for the current 'maliase'.

Marco.
I want more music, certainly more than I'm getting now. I've heard what is possible !
If this can be done sensibly priced, with as few extra boxes as possible I'm a very happy bunny.
No blind loyalty to Linn or Naim unless deserved

Be very happy to get some Mana tips and tuning - Those Manas took me ages to get 'right' ! The floor is all over the place. Move anything and start all over again

Vast majority or all of the solution was Martin's SUT and Phono stage.
How much would the 82 service do in relation to them ?
The 82 isn't necessarily a permanent fixture

[Marco]

I want more music, certainly more than I'm getting now. I've heard what is possible !
If this can be done sensibly priced, with as few extra boxes as possible I'm a very happy bunny.
No blind loyalty to Linn or Naim unless deserved


Cool - that's what I thought. It means that if we do this right, we're guaranteed of making genuine progress.


Be very happy to get some Mana tips and tuning - Those Manas took me ages to get 'right' ! The floor is all over the place. Move anything and start all over again


Yes, but when was the last time you examined the set-up? Mana moves, with time, and *can* go out of tune... Also, would you consider using an alternative support system? I have some ideas on the matter ;)


Vast majority or all of the solution was Martin's SUT and Phono stage.
How much would the 82 service do in relation to them ?
The 82 isn't necessarily a permanent fixture

Good point. I suspect that your 82 (and some of your other Naim gear) could be on borrowed time...

Marco.

[MartinT]

But then again, according to most of the comments in this thread it appears your system is rubbish so you might as well save your money... :D

Harsh!

[MikeMusic]

Cool - that's what I thought. It meant that if we do this right, we're guaranteed of making progress.

Yes, but when was the last time you examined the set-up? Mana moves, with time, and *can* go out of tune... Also, would you consider using an alternative support system? I have some ideas on the matter ;)

Good point. I suspect that your 82 (and some of your other Naim gear) could be on borrowed time...

Marco.
A while, probably last year
Alternative supports ! ?
Burn the heretic !
Ooh hadn't even considered the Manas going...........

I look at that Naim price list and see what other expensive kit goes for and do wonder.
I like quoting Naim list prices at Martin. He always seems to pause for breath
:)

[DSJR]

Marco, I do appreciate your skills with Mana supports, but since the old Naim stuff "features" cases that ring worse than church bells, let alone my chiming clocks ;) I really don't think support on the line electronics is going to help the main problem much.. The 82 should only need re-capping if fitting proper modern caps is to be contemplated. Naim buy the cheapest smaller electrolytics I remember, not "good" ones, which would have cost a few pence more each. Mind you, we "all" know how sensitive an LP12 is to the support it's sitting on, since the thing resonates all over the place. A Rubykon at least would be ideal to clear up the muddy bass I should think - can you imagine how bad the Dynavector 20X was in comparison?

One possible thing for Mike to try is a chat with Avondale. Les doesn't touch the current range I believe but he does make a preamp that even in basic form, should see off anything Naim make, although there may be a lack of inputs and the remote option. You know, you ought to negotiate a good deal on a stock Croft 25 preamp (or a mint used one) to use as a reference to take round to "unbelievers" :lol:

[Beobloke]

Harsh!

As were some of the comments I've been reading...


....and a Linn forum says
>but then I heard the Urika and thought it made the Superline sound broken

In fairness, I haven't heard the Ulrika-ka-ka so I cannot comment, but that's exactly what I would expect to read on a Linn forum. I bet there's a post somewhere on the Naim forum saying the exact opposite! ;)

[sq225917]

I'v owned the Uphorik and the Superline. The Superline lasted almost a year. It sounded very good the bass weight and articulation was excellent, but I was always left with the feeling that there was significant congestion in the mids. It was this muddy quality that lead me to get shot of it.

The Uphorik sounded like a grown up version of the Cambridge Audio 640p, but with the 'benefit' of a smps to pollute your mains. That didn't last a month. Rumour has it that the Ulrika is better all round.

[Marco]

Marco, I do appreciate your skills with Mana supports, but since the old Naim stuff "features" cases that ring worse than church bells, let alone my chiming clocks. I really don't think support on the line electronics is going to help the main problem much..

Trust me, I have a cunning plan which I'll reveal later to Mike! ;)

Marco.

[MikeMusic]

Marco, I do appreciate your skills with Mana supports, but since the old Naim stuff "features" cases that ring worse than church bells, let alone my chiming clocks ;) I really don't think support on the line electronics is going to help the main problem much.. The 82 should only need re-capping if fitting proper modern caps is to be contemplated. Naim buy the cheapest smaller electrolytics I remember, not "good" ones, which would have cost a few pence more each. Mind you, we "all" know how sensitive an LP12 is to the support it's sitting on, since the thing resonates all over the place. A Rubykon at least would be ideal to clear up the muddy bass I should think - can you imagine how bad the Dynavector 20X was in comparison?

One possible thing for Mike to try is a chat with Avondale. Les doesn't touch the current range I believe but he does make a preamp that even in basic form, should see off anything Naim make, although there may be a lack of inputs and the remote option. You know, you ought to negotiate a good deal on a stock Croft 25 preamp (or a mint used one) to use as a reference to take round to "unbelievers" :lol:
I tested the Mana stands with the Naim kit and there was a noticeable difference. This was years ago with 32.5, Hicap and 2 x 135s. I stayed with Mana for all the rest since, but I confess not A/B'd them.
Think I had the 20X. Mud was right
First port of call is the SUT and the Phono Pre amp.
Rest of the system is ok for now at least

Like all the inputs and the remote since moving the 32.5 aside for the 82 so that's almost mandatory.

I want to compare the LP12 and Technics longer term before going to the dark side :)

Any kit I get I want to be neutral, accurate, not warm or cold

One possible pointer abut the present system
David Wren kindly sorted out my crazy crossovers. Switching to one stereo pair was great. Big step up
Trying the TQ Black - minimal change. On some tracks I preferred the Naim or clone cable
Ultra Black marginally better on some tracks most tracks
Boy was I surprised

[DSJR]

Good :) I think we're all rooting for you guv'nor and glad you're making slow but sure progress..

I feel that CD players like turntables CAN be surprisingly improved with siting, especially those grotty Naim ones with that silly puck thingy that can slip on older models :)

Has anyone recorded something at low volume and then high, playing back the recording to see if the gear is microphonic or not? Turntables are definitely awfully microphonic by and large, some CD players may well increase error readings if disturbed. Valve gear can also be depending on the valves. But SOLID STATE electronics?????? Hmmmmm, I'll reserve judgement on that one I think for now, especially bearing in mind that Naim amps of old are so noisy (preamps) and distorted (power amps) the latter changing as time goes by as they slowly drift off spec, i doubt any "microphony" would be in the slightest bit audible over the distortion and noise in all honesty :lol:

I do look forward to seeing what Marco can do on-site though :)

[Spectral Morn]

I have a Mana reference table and I used to use it with great effect under my modified Marantz CD94 mk2. Must confess while I still use it, I now have the top section as an amplifier platform in the downstairs system and the bottom table upstairs.

Its all about tuning the platform/table, and this tuning must, as it was designed with Naim gear in mind (but works well with other stuff) be synergistic with Naim and how it is effected by vibration. Its a mutual interlinked relationship. Well worth exploring and with years of knowledge/experience and proven results Mana tables would be the logical way to go.

[Marco]

Hi Neil,

Yup, but there are also sonic downsides to using standard Mana, (especially lots of it), which cumulatively, have a fundamental impact on music reproduced by the partnering system.

Think of why I'm using the non-magnetic stainless steel version, and also the significance of it (or any Mana) unfortunately no longer being available to buy new... ;)

Marco.

[MartinT]

I'm fascinated by the different approaches taken by isolation systems, especially the point spike approach as taken by Mana and many shelf/rack systems, compared with absorption systems like my sprung rack and Isonoe feet, for example. I think both can work well but are quite different solutions to the problem of sinking vibrational energy.

[DSJR]

Neil, the sonic difference heard with a Micro Seiki CD-M2 placed on a once fashionable "Sicomin" platform was clearly audible and was of the order of magnitude as a Trichord Clock-2 upgrade made on my example. Adding both helped a little bit more and that's what I've ended up with all these years :)

Marco may well have a very valid point. Multi layers of magnetic steel Mana may well alter the sound, but not for obvious "vibration" reasons. Interesting :)

[Marco]

It's simply an example of lateral thinking, which I consider has a bearing on the issue.

Mike and I had a good chat later. I think he's focussed on the plan ahead! ;)

Marco.