Croft separates versus integrated

[mikecole]

For those of you that have experience with both, how far off is the Phono Integrated from the Micro 25 / Series 7 combination through both the line and phono sections?

[DSJR]

Hifi dave will be along shortly no doubt, but for me, the integrated clips too easily into some speakers and one gets caught out sometimes on intense vocals played at a fair old lick. The 25/7 separates combination doesn't do this when playing the same thing at a similar volume level. As for overall sonics, I wouldn't say there's an enormous difference apart from the headroom issue, so at low volumes I doubt I'd be able to tell them apart. The Croft integrated is, to me, a bit like a Rega Brio R "with a little bit of attitude" - and I mean that in a positive way...

Having said the above, I'd much rather a Croft anything than a Naim Nait in any form, Super or otherwise, or other mainstream stuff by Marantz, Arcam, Roksan, Cyrus etc!

[hifi_dave]

Not a vast difference between the integrated and the separates but if you have the extra £400 and the room, the separates are the way to go. Just a bit more prescence, oomph and believability.

I'll be in your neighbourhood in 4 weeks - I hope the weather is better there than it is in the UK.

[mikecole]

The Dave & Dave tagteam :)

I usually listen at pretty low volumes, which is a good thing since I only have 15 watts at my disposal. If you have ever used a sound pressure level meter, I usually listen around 70db maybe 90% of the time. The problem is that I would like to listen a bit louder the other 10% of the time. My system, however, becomes a bit overbearing then. The superb liveness at lower levels becomes tiring at slightly louder volumes (maybe 75db or so).

I am not quite sure what is to blame, could be my system, my room or my old ears. I had considered switching over to some more forgiving speakers, like maybe Harbeth P3ESRs (which I have never heard), but in order to do that, I would have sell my Leben CS300XS integrated and get something a bit more inexpensive, like the Croft Phono Integrated. Or I could take a chance that the Croft 25/7 combo is more of a synergistic match with my Reynaud Bliss loudspeakers and sell my Leben and get the Croft combo. The Reynaud importer doesn't like all tube amplification with these, he feels they work better with hybrids, hence the Croft.

Dave, not sure how the weather has been there, but it is going to be hot and humid here for the next two months or so. Today is a scorcher - it is 90 degrees Fahrenheit in the shade. It is good weather for heading to the water parks or the beach though. Or staying inside in the air conditioning and listening to music. BTW, if you might be needing any help while you here, just PM me and I'll give you my phone number.

[hifi_dave]

For the little Leben to do it's job, the speakers must be a good match and/or you shouldn't expect more than moderate listening levels. The Croft has far more driving power, whilst retaining that 'tube' sound.

Thanks for the offer, very kind. We are regular visitors to most parts of Florida and usually visit twice a year. This year we are taking two of our Grandchildren to Disney and then to Vero Beach.

The weather here is sh*te - one day warm/hot and the very next is cold and tipping it down in Florida style. We really could do with two weeks of 90 in the shade, thanks very much.

[IHP]

Hi Mike,

I'm always a little reluctant to recommend systems as it's all down to what you're after but having said that I'm doing just that - the Harbeth P3ESRs with Croft (in my case Micro 25R pre and Series 7 Power amps) is as joyous combination as I've ever owned.

The sound of the 7 to my ears isn't that far off from my Leak 20 when put in the system, though the Croft will of course go louder when wanted. I perhaps prefer the Radford 12 just that little bit more than the Croft but there's not much in it and again the Croft has the output advantage as well as being far easier on the wallet (and that bit easier to find !).

I was about to say drop by any time you're in the Midlands but see that's unlikely !

Good luck.

[DSJR]

Dave and Dave tag team eh?

I don't visit hifi shops these days as it would be a waste of their time and energy. Having been subject to casual listeners out for a jolly, not being honest (If they genuinely said they weren't buying it wouldn't have been an issue as part of our job was to plant seeds) but too many people "pretending" to be serious clients for too many years means that the only place I get to hear anything new these days is at Daves - we're old mates going back twenty five years or so. I have no commercial links with him at all and since I don't buy new gear I can't claim "mate's rates" either. Alex_UK comes along too on recent visits and we have a damned fun time playing music and trying out some of Dave's new and vintage toys.

The Croft integrated does a heck of a lot for a hand made slimline box with point-to-point wiring and does sound very good within its narrower limits when compared to the Croft separates, that's all..

P.S. The leak Stereo 20 is a fun thing and worth the adulation it gets, but it's not as neutral or truthful to the source as the Crofts, let alone a good modern ss amp (they do exist :))

[mikecole]

DSJR, the tag team thing was just a bit of fun, nothing in it. I just thought it was funny that the first two respondees were both Croft fans named Dave. It must be nice having a good friend who owns a candy - I mean hifi - store. The nearest dealer to me who carries the type of stuff I am interested in is 4 hours south of me. I may, however, end up going down there to see if the little Harbeths are my cup of tea.

IHP, "joyous combination" - yes, this what I am looking for :)

hifi_dave, I hope you have a good trip. Just try to avoid the hurricanes, they can ruin your day.

One more question. I am pretty sure the Croft/P3ESR combo would be great in the tonality area, but will they boogie? I am sure they are not Linn Kans in that area, but people seem to be divided as to whether they are slow sounding or not. The Reynauds are nice and lively and always get my foot tapping and I wouldn't want to lose that.

[hifi_dave]

No, Harbeths are not slow in any way and they do "boogie". However, my idea of "boogie" also includes loud and whilst the wonderful P3ESR goes loud for a small speaker, it might not go loud enough for you. They do go luder than the Kan though.

If you want a bit of head banging, which I enjoy, one of the larger Harbeths should do the trick. The new M30.1 for instance, does natural and also goes loud.

A visit to your 'nearest' Harbeth dealer might be in order. Where is the 'nearest' for you ?

[DSJR]

DSJR, the tag team thing was just a bit of fun, nothing in it. One more question. I am pretty sure the Croft/P3ESR combo would be great in the tonality area, but will they boogie? I am sure they are not Linn Kans in that area, but people seem to be divided as to whether they are slow sounding or not.

The Reynauds are nice and lively and always get my foot tapping and I wouldn't want to lose that.

S'alright, but i am sensitive to being called a shill for hifi dave by a certain other banned muppet-avatar manufacturer who has a small forum with a thread dedicated to things that go on here and my shilling dave in particular, especially when this manufacturer's mail-order products never get mentioned for a variety of reasons :steam:

Original Linn Kans "boogie" because of their tonal balance. No deep bass at all, a severely peaked up upper mid followed by a nosedive into the tweeter, which is set roughly at mid-midrange levels similar in fact to the AVI Pro Nines I have. This balance is acceptable for desktop/meter bridge nearfields and of course the Linns were used flat tight to a solid back wall, but it's hardly an "accurate" presentation of timbres and the true rhythmic nature of a recorded piece of music IMO.

I compared a Croft driven pair of P3ESR's to my then outgoing ATC SCM20A pro's, which I've discovered have a 5db bump-up between 500 and 1khz. There was NO loss of midrange detail in the P3ESR's nor the faintest hint of "passive crossover smear," an aspect attributed by AVI to ALL passive speakers! The AVI N5's we compared the P3ESR's to in comparison screeched horribly on intense female vocals, even at very modest volumes and once again reminded me why I hate Kans so - harbeth are happy to have their speakers tested by third parties, AVI not, so make up your own mind on this...

The bass of the tiny Harbeths was a revelation as well. OK, the power and absolute maximum volume on low synth bass notes won't get Marco's trousers flapping, but they coped incredibly well with Massive Attack (Mezzanine) to surprising levels before the bass started doubling up (no nasty popping or cracking noises, so I assume a good long-throw to the coil).

As for the treble/tweeter output, the little harbs are delightful. Again, careful LISTENING at the design stage has brought about a speaker that plays intimate jazz superbly, a cymbal-set having individual timbres beautifully reproduced, rather than a one note crash as my ATC's did. Of the others Dave has to compare (Rega, Naim, PMC, Neat and Kudos, as well as my Rogers LS5/9's, Alex's Diamond IV's :lol: :cool: and bigger Harbs), the Kudos come closest IMO, albeit with the treble on the ones heard being set too high to be strictly truthful to the source recording. The original P3ES was way ahead of the rather squeaky later LS3/5A and this current one is way ahead again, sounding far bigger and louder than you'd think it should :)

Does the above help without sounding like a mini review? I've known Alan Shaw personally for over twenty years and once owned some (too big :() HL5's for a good few years. he designs with a good technical base and then listens, tweaks, listens and listens again for hundreds of hours before signing the completed design off. I look forward to hearing the 30.1's too, as the outgoing 30's are pretty damned good indeed and a more than worthy replacement for the LS5/9, which was their prime role in life..

[mikecole]

I rarely go to headbanging levels and if I do, it would only be for one song. I generally get my volume kicks with the aftermarket stereo system in the car. I just want a system that will go to modestly loud levels without becoming annoying after a few hours.

I've done the PRaT thing with Linn, Naim, Exposure etc. but I have always come back to tubes to get that tonal richness. The Leben does a good job of marrying tonality and PRaT (although I think the term 'musical flow' is more descriptive of what it does). The Reynauds do that to an extent, but there is something about them that just doesn't do it for me. I am thinking the P3ESRs may be a step in the right direction. And if the Croft stuff is such a good match, that may be something I will need look into also.

The nearest Harbeth dealer appears to be about 4 hours south of me in Palm Beach. Since my wife is away visiting her family, I may have to head down there one weekend.

[DSJR]

None of the current croft amps have artificial richness AT ALL, unlike say, a Series 4 all valve amp and a Super Micro 4 or Mega Micro from twenty years ago, both of which having a gloriously huge "valvey" heart to them..

As I've posted many times, the Croft preamps seem to be as neutral as a preamp can be. If anything at all is added, it's that "hand made by the master" thing we psychologically get from using his stuff. The original Micro from 1985 or so actually measured really well too, so a double benefit and a wonderful now vintage product should you ever find one. The R and RS just refine what the 25 pre does and not in an obvious way. When I first heard the 25RS, straight out of the box, was that it sounded like a standard 25, but when I was doing something else (delving in Dave's cartridge drawers probably), the sense of expression in a piece of music just made me stop and really listen to the music and wonder at the beauty of it all :)

The Series 7 power amp is an excellent, simple circuited device that offers a well balanced spec (as measured in a fairly recent HFN review) and a reliable and stable performance into many different speakers. I haven't compared one with the R and RS models, let alone the mono's, which have been done for overseas market need as much as anything else, but I suspect the improvements will be along the same lines.

[mikecole]

Thanks for all the info, guys. If I make it down to the dealer, I'll let you know how things turn out.

[hifi_dave]

That will be good.

[Audioflair]

In response to the original post asking for a comparison between the Phono Integrated and 25/7 combo, the Integrated has a passive linestage. I.e. No linestage valve due to lack of space. The result is that the soundstage of the Integrated is slightly smaller and less dimensional and that complex passages are a touch less separated/resolved than the 25/7 combo. (Bear in mind that the phono stage works through the linestage.) If you play mainly `simple` music the differences are less obvious.

[mikecole]

That was the sense I had from the other posters too. It is now a moot point though. I found out that the only place to get Croft gear in the States is the Acoustic Sounds online store. They carry the 25/25R and the 7/7R, but nothing else. I inquired about the integrated and was informed that they had no plans to carry any of the entry level gear. So, if I decide to trade in my Leben for Croft, it will be the 25/7 combo. I think I need to hear the P3ESRs before I make any decisions though.

[DSJR]

In response to the original post asking for a comparison between the Phono Integrated and 25/7 combo, the Integrated has a passive linestage. I.e. No linestage valve due to lack of space. The result is that the soundstage of the Integrated is slightly smaller and less dimensional and that complex passages are a touch less separated/resolved than the 25/7 combo. (Bear in mind that the phono stage works through the linestage.) If you play mainly `simple` music the differences are less obvious.


Not having a line stage buffer could be argued that the signal path is less cluttered with components and since we're talking inches of interconnect from input sockets to power amp, the main issue would be with output impedance of the line sources used... Having the line buffer tends to eliminate that uncertainty I think.

Anyway, it's up to the Op to listen for himself with hopefully the sources he's going to use. The integrated IS a good amp, just with a lower "ceiling" in performance terms :)

[Audioflair]

Anyway, it's up to the Op to listen for himself with hopefully the sources he's going to use. The integrated IS a good amp, just with a lower "ceiling" in performance terms :)
Absolutely, the Integrated is a great amp.

[DSJR]

That's one little thing we're all agreed on then :lol:

[mikecole]

I posted this on AudioKarma, but instead of typing in a similar reply to this thread, I am doing a copy/paste. Hope that is not a no-no here.

Well, I am back from the dealer. 3 1/2 hours each way in one day is way too much for my old body. The dealer works out of his house and offered me a sweet apartment where I could sit and play with gear overnight, but I had a sick cat at home who needed to be taken care of, and unfortunately that trumped my stereo obsession.

Man, you can read and read and read about stuff and concoct all these systems in your head but there is absolutley no substitute for listening to gear at a good dealer. I was there for 6 hours straight with only 1 pee break and if wasn't for the dealers wife forcing us to have a snack, it would have been without food too.

The end result was that I bought a pair of Harbeth P3ESRs and a Rega Brio-R. It is not ideal and was bit of a step down in sound quality, but was more in line with what I was going for. Although I was primarily interested in the sound, in the back of my mind, I wanted a small cool running integrated with a phono stage and and smaller pair of speakers. These two filled the bill. I think I am just tired of boxes and cables and speakers dominating the room.

We tried a Naim XS and my Leben with the P3s also. The Naim was more incisive and delineated each instrument far better than the Brio. It was also a bit more colorful tonally (which goes against my previous view of Naim). The Brio was a bit more laid back (but just a bit) and flatter tonally. It was also "softer" sounding - not quite sure how to describe it. My dealer had never tried the Leben with the P3s because he thought they would not match up. Don't ever let anybody tell you the Leben can't drive P3s. As soon as the music started, my dealer and I both sat up and took note. In comparison to the Rega and the Naim, the sound field became friggin huge. Lots of air around everything and way more bass than I thought the P3s were capable of. However, that was the problem for me, the bass just a bit too prominent and fruity for me. The bass from the Naim was a bit more preferable, but just a tad too reticient in comparison to the mids and highs (at low volumes). Having said that though, I thought the Naim XS was a completely natural partner for this speaker, it seemed to play to all the strengths of this little guy. Although I found the Brio to be the least capable of the three amps (to my ears) we tried, it was no slouch at all. As ArtK said in another thread, the Brio was a jack of all trades and master of none. It's *overall* musicality was quite enjoyable.

Pricewise though, I could not afford anything more than the Brio. I had hoped to use the Croft Phono Integrated, but it is not available in the states. I have the Brio at home now and, because I am picky and wanted my P3s in maple, I will have to wait a week. This sucks because I am on vacation all next week I have the Brio playing thru my Reynauds and the result is not bad at all. I have resisted the temptation to A/B the Brio and Leben. No sense going down that route since I will have to sell the Leben and the Reynauds to pay for everything else. It will take me a while to get used to the sound I guess. I am way too used to having tubes in the chain.

[DSJR]

Don't think the Brio R is lacking in any way. It's certainly using a bit more of itself into P3ESR's over the larger and rather more efficient Harbeths (ten o'clock to eleven o'clock type of movement on the volume control with the same source), but unless you want very high volumes, in which case I don't think the Croft integrated would be much if any better, it'll be fine and I hope you'll grow to love it, even if it gets changed at some point in the future..

As for the Nait XS, it costs loads more, should have a better bass "power," but I still maintain the treble reproduction isn't as good, into Harbeths in my opinion.

By the way, if the Brio R DOES eventually win you over, there's an Elicit revamp on the way I understand. The previous model was good, but priced wrongly I think, and Naim had too much of a head start with XS's and SuperNaits two or three years ago before the Uniti models became esptablished and the market continued to collapse here in the UK....

[mikecole]

dsjr, at the dealer I kept the volume closer to the 9:00 point and it was plenty loud for me. I am currently playing it into my Reynauds at 8:00 and it is just fine at that volume, so needing to go loud will never be a problem for me :-)

I think if I don't A/B stuff, this will do me just fine in the long term.

[hifi_dave]

The Rega brio-R is a great little amp and I've heard worse at 10 x the price - better casework though..:rolleyes:

[DSJR]

Same with the previous Mira (not the clamshell one), where you had a thin looking but solid cast top-plate and a cast looking but plastic front panel. Hey ho :lol) Rega even dislike gold plated phono sockets because apparently one has to plate the base metal with something else before the gold top layer (I need confirmation please), thereby giving a mutli-metal socket that may not be ideal (darned if i can tell, but then I'm not really "tuned" to these kinds of differences these days..)

[mikecole]

I think the weak point for the Brio is the phono stage. Or it could be that it does not really have enough gain for my Dyna 10x5. It just seems a bit wimpy. Is the phono stage in the Croft Integrated inherently better or am I right in saying that it is just a gain problem and I would hear the same from the Croft?

[hifi_dave]

The Croft Integrated is a better amp all round including the phono stage.

[mikecole]

Well, that's not what I wanted to hear, Dave :)

BTW, is 27" the right height for the speakers. Skylan sells them at that height. Has anybody tried any stands that they thought were better? I really like the simplicity of the Skylans, but I heard that the open frame stands make for a livelier presentation.

[hifi_dave]

I usually use 24 inches but it depends on your seated height. Ideally, the tweters should be at your ear height when you are sitting.

[Reffc]

Entering this late I know but having heard what the Croft amps do through the SHL5's and comparing with a Rega Brio, Primare I30, Pereaux pre/powers and several other amps, the Croft 25/S7R beats them all hands down IMHO and not by a small margin. Richer more punchy sound which carries more detail and greater 3-D imaging to my mind (even though the power amp actually belts out less wattage then some of the amps I've compared it against) and a natural choice IMHO for the Harbys. Having recently spoken to Glenn, I know that he did use Harbeths when developing and testing his latest 25 and series 7 amps so I guess that has to figure in just how successful the Croft/Harbeth combo is. I've heard many so called high-end systems over the years and reviewed plenty of high end kit, and it still comes as a jaw dropping shock just how good the Harbeth/Croft paring is compared to most.

[DSJR]

I have to butt in here and say that although Dave has the Something Solid stands for the P3ESR's there, I've always heaved out some 20" ones he has to hand in the dem room with four globs of blue-tack on the top. i forget what they are, but apart from being medium mass and dead when rapped, I don't remember exactly what they are. By the way, all curent Harbeths have very tightly damped cabinets which don't vibrate to anything like the extent my 38yr old BC2 boxes do... In fact, at reasonable volume, they don't appear to vibrate at all..

[mikecole]

Reffc, if I could afford the Croft separates, I would definitely get them. I just got the Harbeths yesterday afternoon and have been playing around with them. The maple finish is really nice, like a pair of tiny jewels. I feel kind of like Gollum with his "precious". Soundwise they are lighter than I remembered at the dealer (who had a larger space). In my chair , it looks like a 27" speaker height brings my ears at tweeter level. After playing around with positioning, I added my subwoofer into the equation. I am using the sub as a woofer instead of sub-woofer. I put it in between the speakers and have it crossed over at 25Hz with just bit of output. It seems like cheating somehow, but it seems to make things a bit more solid sounding to my ears. Even without a sub and moving the speakers way out away from the side and back walls, the soundstage wasn't anything special, certainly not what I imagined from all my reading. I think if I can ever get out of analytical mode, maybe I can enjoy these. On a few records, I was surprised at just how much more to the vocals there was. One thing that is nice is that these are not quite so present (not pushy) sounding although they can sound pretty tinny (and tiny) on some records.

Edit: I moved the speakers abother foot further apart and this helped out. I just read in the users guide that Alan Shaw says we should all listen responsibly at 85db. So I cranked it up. I was previously afraid to turn it up this loud since these are such tiny speakers. But if Alan says so ... *now* I see what all the fuss is about. Everyhting so far sounds nice and natural without hurting my ears even though it is loud. So my course is clear, get a new house or a new wife :-)

[Reffc]

Reffc, if I could afford the Croft separates, I would definitely get them. I just got the Harbeths yesterday afternoon and have been playing around with them. The maple finish is really nice, like a pair of tiny jewels. I feel kind of like Gollum with his "precious". Soundwise they are lighter than I remembered at the dealer (who had a larger space). In my chair , it looks like a 27" speaker height brings my ears at tweeter level. After playing around with positioning, I added my subwoofer into the equation. I am using the sub as a woofer instead of sub-woofer. I put it in between the speakers and have it crossed over at 25Hz with just bit of output. It seems like cheating somehow, but it seems to make things a bit more solid sounding to my ears. Even without a sub and moving the speakers way out away from the side and back walls, the soundstage wasn't anything special, certainly not what I imagined from all my reading. I think if I can ever get out of analytical mode, maybe I can enjoy these. On a few records, I was surprised at just how much more to the vocals there was. One thing that is nice is that these are not quite so present (not pushy) sounding although they can sound pretty tinny (and tiny) on some records.

Edit: I moved the speakers abother foot further apart and this helped out. I just read in the users guide that Alan Shaw says we should all listen responsibly at 85db. So I cranked it up. I was previously afraid to turn it up this loud since these are such tiny speakers. But if Alan says so ... *now* I see what all the fuss is about. Everyhting so far sounds nice and natural without hurting my ears even though it is loud. So my course is clear, get a new house or a new wife :-)

Which Harbys did you buy?

I have mine on something solid stands, and 85dB would be normal listening level for me (higher on transients), with quieter sessions at perhaps 70dB. No lack of weight and no need for a sub with the 5's IMHO. If something's sounding "tinny" then perhaps its the recording rather than a trait of the loudspeakers?

[IHP]

Just a quickie - I have my P3ESRs on 600mm high sections of oak the width and depth of which match the speakers. I've often wondered if open stands would make any difference but to be honest have never been motivated to try - everything sounds just great as it is.

[DSJR]

These more modern thin-wall speakers don't resonate like old ones do, so no need to get anal about stands - why AS doesn't make a big thing about them. As long as they're supported at the corners by blue-tack or little bump-on feet etc., that should be enough. As for imaging, if the speakers are angled towards the listener (no treble peaks to iron out by firing them straight ahead) and they're a couple of hands breadths minimum away from the back wall, they should offer very good imaging indeed.

AS also plays down the whole running-in thing and seemed to indicate once that if a speaker changes hugely in "running in," then it's gone faulty, or words to that effect I recall. Having recently seen a link to some research done on headphone drivers, where the first hundred hours noticeably changed the response over 8kHz for the better, I'm not so sure.

One final comment. Florida has a much higher mean temperature than the UK I believe and a difference of ten degrees Celcuis can make a huge difference to the driver suspension and damping - to ANY speaker I understand. P3ESR's will have slightly different characteristics in the bass in Florida than in a typical UK location, but how different I don't know, and that's before the room is taken into account.

[technobear]

Even without a sub and moving the speakers way out away from the side and back walls, the soundstage wasn't anything special, certainly not what I imagined from all my reading. I think if I can ever get out of analytical mode, maybe I can enjoy these. On a few records, I was surprised at just how much more to the vocals there was. One thing that is nice is that these are not quite so present (not pushy) sounding although they can sound pretty tinny (and tiny) on some records.


Patience dear boy! You've got at least 200 hours of playing to go before you can start making judgments about their sound :)

[Reffc]

Patience dear boy! You've got at least 200 hours of playing to go before you can start making judgments about their sound :)

That's an interesting observation for several reasons! Alan Shaw I understand holds the view that Harbeth 'speakers need no running in and if something's changed, then its down to elsewhere in the system. My own observations are that in around 100 hours of playing (albeit with three different amps!) there has been no discernible shift in tonal signature (although there was in control) which seems more affected by positioning. The switch recently to Something Solid stands hasn't changed the character of the 'speakers majorly either IMHO, although they do look prettier than sat atop the plastic stools which were serving as stands! Room acoustics and speaker positioning I suspect lie at the heart of perceptions on tonal changes as it's surprising just how much "boom" and upper bass lift can muddle the sound if speakers like the 5s are placed too close to rear or side walls. In my own room, the distance between the 'speakers does seem to be critical too. Between 6 and 7 feet seems optimal. If the 'speakers don't sound right oand especially if they don't sound like they did at the dealers, my money would be on room acoustics and layout, not the speakers themselves.

[DSJR]

The One new Harbeth that impressed me BECAUSE the bass was better mannered closer to a wall is the M30.1. They don't go down quite as low as SHL5's, but the tendency for the bass to full-up over the midrange isn't there in compromised positions and the increase in subtlety over the excellent outgoing M30's is clearly audible. Who needs scrappy little actives half built in Indonesia unless you're strapped for cash? I fell deeply in love with the 30.1's and can't recommend them highly enough for UK sized sitting rooms :)

[Reffc]

The One new Harbeth that impressed me BECAUSE the bass was better mannered closer to a wall is the M30.1. They don't go down quite as low as SHL5's, but the tendency for the bass to full-up over the midrange isn't there in compromised positions and the increase in subtlety over the excellent outgoing M30's is clearly audible. Who needs scrappy little actives half built in Indonesia unless you're strapped for cash? I fell deeply in love with the 30.1's and can't recommend them highly enough for UK sized sitting rooms :)

Sounds like a great loudspeaker. I've not been lucky enough to audition a pair but am pretty happy with the 5's. You're right though, move them closer than around 2 or 3 feet from the rear wall and they begin to couple with it and the mids are also affected. Placing acoustic panels to the rear helps a lot though and once the position is sorted, they seem as good a compromise as any loudspeaker I've heard. The problem with some of the active's I've heard (like the ATC's for example) is that listening volumes seem to have to be a little too high for my room before they start to gel plus the price is pretty prohibitive for a good pair. Can't see the point for domestic purposes when there's speakers like Harbeths available.

[Alex_UK]

Sounds like a great loudspeaker. I've not been lucky enough to audition a pair but am pretty happy with the 5's.

Having heard the 30.1's at the same time as DSJR did, I would agree that they are a great pair of speakers, but for me, if you've got the space (and room acoustics) the 5's still shade it - I've still not heard a pair of speakers I would rather own on a day-to-day basis.

In my experience having listened to all the Harbeth range at least once now, you just get more of the same "flavour" as you go up the range - increased size, space and frequency, but still the "house" sound - again for me personally the SHL5's tick the right boxes and would be perfect with my room but I would happily live with any of them!

Anyway, apologies for the thread drift, we're talking about amplifiers... I too have the Brio-R and I'll be very surprised if it doesn't continue to grow on you. It really is superb - and not just "for the money."

[DSJR]

Alex said as much to me too at the time, and the lucky beggar has just the kind of room to suit the SHL5's too. My room isn't as bass friendly, and that's where the 30.1's would come into their own for my situation.

Apologies for the thread drift, but a lot of lurkers come to this site and if it helps any prospective Harbeth people to decise between the slightly leaner toned M models or the volume control friendly "domestic" ones, price apart (the M30.1 costs a little more than the C7 ES3's I believe), then it's worth saying IMO.

Anyway, if the OP decides to look at Croft again after the Brio R, then leapfrog the integrated and go for a 25/7 at the very least. By then, the new incarnation of the Elicit may be available too.

[Frazeur1]

Even though this is an older thread, it is indeed an excellent one. I have been thinking about the Croft phono-integrated as well as the 25/7 separates, using my Naim Uniti as a source into Larsen Model 4 speakers.

I got to take a listen to the integrated and a pair of Harbeth C7's roughly a year ago or so, and was a wonderful combination. I have not listened to the pre/power setup though, so nice to read about some of the differences. As always hearing them with ones own gear is always best.

As a side note, and not to get all out in leftfield on wanky-wire, but is there any wire/cable that seems to work best with Croft? I have been using Supra Classic 6 and have Naim NACA5, Linn K20 etc. Then again, maybe it just doesn't matter much. Anyway, enjoyed those that contributed to these posts on the Croft. Tim

[worrasf]

As a side note, and not to get all out in leftfield on wanky-wire, but is there any wire/cable that seems to work best with Croft?

FWIW I have found the Reference Pluto's to be "best" between the 25R and 4S. Tried lots of different ones over the years but for my system and taste the Pluto's sound the most detailed, dynamic and balanced. I'm sure Paul at RFC would let you try a pair.

Steve

[Jimbo]

FWIW I have found the Reference Pluto's to be "best" between the 25R and 4S. Tried lots of different ones over the years but for my system and taste the Pluto's sound the most detailed, dynamic and balanced. I'm sure Paul at RFC would let you try a pair.

Steve

Hi Steve,

what valves are you using in the 25R phono stage?

[Frazeur1]

Thanks Steve, I will have to look at those wires, do not know anything about them. I am located in the US, so don't know where they are located. Will do some research though!

[worrasf]

Hi Steve,

what valves are you using in the 25R phono stage?

Hi James
I use NOS Siemens Halske throughout. E83CC in phono and power stages and E82CC in line stage.
After many years of tube rolling I find these give me the sound I like the best.
I also very much like the GE 5 star triple mica 5751's in the phono stage and Sylvania 12BH7a in the line stage.

The JJ EC99 (gold pin) also works quite well as a 12BH7a alternate.

Overall I find the Siemens to give the best balance. Telefunkens are a little to "bright and breathy" and Mullards a little to "warm"
but as always it's down to personal taste and system synergy.

Steve

[worrasf]

Thanks Steve, I will have to look at those wires, do not know anything about them. I am located in the US, so don't know where they are located. Will do some research though!

A pair on sale here on AoS http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?32717-FS-2m-Pair-Reference-Pluto-Mk2

[Frazeur1]

Thanks Steve for pointing me to this. I don't have the Crofts yet, still in the debating side at this point, and looking at the whole picture, so we shall see. Tim