View Full Version : My musings on cables...
Daniel Quinn
26-06-2012, 13:01
Okay , this is where I would like to be little argumentative. :)
To place what I say below in context , I do not dispute that cables make a difference , but the differences I have so far experienced are not nite and day , they are subtle and also they are dwarfed by the differences hard wiring as made . I have played with dozens of interconnects [from phono to amp] . home made and up to £80 for 50cm. In my system and the I would say the differences would be no more than 5% . However, when I by-passed the phono plugs and hard wired the cable to circuit board the difference was immediate and significant .
My argument and the point which really pisses me off is the illusion that a cable can have an intrinsic sound . I consider reviews that state this cable as good bass , sparkly treble or open airy mid-range to be bollocks and part of the problem of obfuscation that many manufactures contribute to in order to shift product.
Do not get me wrong, the electrical properties of a cable [inductance, capacitance etc] I believe that in the context of a system can effect the bass, treble or midrange, but that does not mean a cable as an intrinsic sound , it is merely how it sounds in the context of a particular system . I do not believe a cable as an inherent and intrinsic sound which transcends time and space and system to system.
Intrinsic is dictionary defined as “essential character, the nature of a thing”. In the context of a piece of copper , silver or whatever material and its ability to reproduce music via electronic equipment this is a very dubious adjective to employ. [ As an aside I consider the use of adjectives to be dubious per se . Just cheque out any advert, comment or news bulletin and the more adjectives employed the more it is likely to be bollocks: facts do not need adjectives ]
You need only look at AOS and it is populated by contradictory and often polar opposite views on the same cable , now it cannot be that someone is right and someone else is wrong , it can only be that cables properties in one system do not transfer to another and in my opinion that is because the cable doesn’t have any intrinsic properties ,all you can really say is it sounds what is sounds like system A , but that sound cannot be transferred to system b, c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j etc . There may be similarities but that is probably due to coincidence and/or similarity in equipment.
Now Imagine if I am correct and there is far more empirical evidence that I am than there is to prove me wrong . This would mean every cable manufacture would be forced to sell their product on the basis off - “Try this cable in your system it may sound amazing , it may sound okay or it may completely fuck it up , I don’t know and you will only know if you try it” :lol:
Indeed , I often thought that a disgruntled cable buyer could sue the manufacturer for breach of contract or for selling a defective product pursuant of the Consumer Protection Act 1987.
I would suggest that the Synergy of components is by far the most important aspect and this is why I firmly believe all cable should be sold on a try and return for refund basis and I would be suspicious of those that don’t .
sq225917
26-06-2012, 13:55
I think you are probably very close to the truth, cables sound different in different set-ups. Some pieces of equipment are not affected by cable changes and some are. Add onto this the predilection for some people to perceive what does not exist and equally for others to deny what does and you have the full range and explanation of circumstances and outcomes.
More interestingly though is this argument- "my equipment shows up differences in cables and is therefore better than one that does not" and vice versa. Who is correct?
I don't entirely disagree.
Daniel Quinn
26-06-2012, 14:18
"More interestingly though is this argument- "my equipment shows up differences in cables and is therefore better than one that does not" and vice versa. Who is correct?"
I have a cop out answer to this . If I prefer my system then it is always better and will be until I hear another I prefer , then it is not .
There is no correct way - empahsis on PRAT , maximum extraction of whats on the disc , the illusive musicality, soundstate, SPL: Its whatever floats your boat.
Now in a far away Nirvana , everybody could hear everything in the context of thier own room and vote and then we may see a winner but I doubt it , until that day its best we just :cool: and gently argue without taking it too seriously , unless it makes you :steam: for good reason .
I think Dennis is correct here in his first post and also the one sneaked in above while I was composing this. I'd also say that SOME phono plugs are very capacitive. A VERY long time since I last measured any of them, but one we tried, which looked fine externally, had considerable capacitance all on its own - and an obvious sonic signature we thought, when welded to the cable (the "Shark" silver plated one from Maplin, which I think is a good overall wire). This was in the days of AVI recommending low capacitance interconnects between their well regarded sources, preamps and remote power amps of the 90's..
Unlike some here, I still reckon that the vast majority of what we hear is easily measured, if you know what you're looking for, even comparing two grades of WBT plugs :)
icehockeyboy
27-06-2012, 08:02
My take on this?
I think Dennis should learn the different meanings of the words cheque and check, which he should have used! :lol:
Or use spell cheque! Joke by the way...........
Daniel Quinn
27-06-2012, 08:45
Ive been told off [ literally ] by HHJ Seymour and the Royal Courts of Justice for 16 spelling errors in my witness statement [ he counted them all ] so i'm pretty chilled out about spelling on forums , but its not often I employ the completely wrong word :doh::doh::doh::lol:
I think that you have made some good points Dennis. There are a grand total of two companies specialising in mass production of cables (sold under different manufacturer's names) in this country at present (that I know of), with a small handful making their own. Speak to anyone developing their own and usually, what is more important than a great deal of the foo marketing claims in terms of impact on sound come down to two common denominators: Quality control and impedance consistency and matching (single ended cables). Change the impedance matching of a plug and you'll end up on many systems with an impact on sound (electrical parameters at play). Get a poorly manufactured cable and you end up (usually) with gross inconsistencies in impedance along the cable (distance between ground shield/return and signal conductor). The better 75 Ohm coax cables make great digital cables because their impedance remains remarkably consistent. The very best designs have an accuracy of less than 0.1%. Poor quality connectors (design or manufacture, or both) also have a big impact on perceived sound quality, particularly high impedance and capacitance plugs of which there's many! Quite an involved subject really but you've made some perfectly valid observations.
Hi Paul,
Poor quality connectors (design or manufacture, or both) also have a big impact on perceived sound quality, particularly high impedance and capacitance plugs of which there's many!
Based on considerable experience now in that area, I completely agree! :)
The more metal used in their construction, the worse (in an audio application) plugs tend to be, regardless of whether the conductor is silver or copper... It's no accident, therefore, to my ears, that Eichmann (silver) Bullet Plugs are, to date, amongst the best I've used.
Marco.
brian2957
27-06-2012, 19:42
The WBT Nextgen RCA plugs are also excellent .Again minimal use of metal .They also dismantle for ease of soldering making them very good to work with .
Expensive but IMO worth the money.
Brian.
Hi Paul,
Based on considerable experience now in that area, I completely agree! :)
The more metal used in their construction, the worse (in an audio application) plugs tend to be, regardless of whether the conductor is silver or copper... It's no accident, therefore, to my ears, that Eichmann (silver) Bullet Plugs are, to date, amongst the best I've used.
Marco.
Spookily enough I have replaced Cardas RCA's with Eichmanns for the Reference Mercury:
http://referencefidelitycomponents.co.uk/the-all-new-reference-mercury-rca-interconnect/
I don't think it's altogether to do with the amount of metal used, but how the plugs perform in terms of impedance and capacitance (and how well they make contact with the sockets). I like Bullet plugs but Furutech take some beating for sheer quality and performance IMO.
Lol - great minds think alike! ;)
I agree about Furutech, although I have more experience of using their mains connectors, than their audio ones. I also highly rate WBT Nextgen. For me, no genuinely top-notch cable deserves the name unless fitted with the best possible connectors.
Marco.
Covenant
27-06-2012, 20:05
I think cables appeal to us because, relatively speaking,they are an inexpensive way of altering SQ. Now personally speaking I don't spend very much on them-say £40 on interconnects and £8/metre on speaker cables. The current fad for Tellurium has passed me by because I would rather spend the money elsewhere in my system.
Treating the room acoustically is far higher up my list of things to do.....
realysm42
27-06-2012, 20:58
Interesting use of the word fad there; you know there might be a reason for the attention it's garnered.
Have you tried it?
Covenant
27-06-2012, 21:24
No, I haven't tried it and don't intend to. I don't thing my hifi is good enough for expensive wire.
realysm42
28-06-2012, 08:51
It'd be interesting to see what you thought of the blue stuff. Granted it's twice what you'd normally be willing to pay per metre but wouldn't a free home demo even tempt you?
I know it might sound like I've got an agenda with how much I've bigged it up on here but I don't; I just think if something works well then why not spread the love? My brother said the same as you but gave it a shot and is keeping it now.
My argument and the point which really pisses me off is the illusion that a cable can have an intrinsic sound . I consider reviews that state this cable as good bass , sparkly treble or open airy mid-range to be bollocks and part of the problem of obfuscation that many manufactures contribute to in order to shift product.
I do agree, Dennis, but the issue is really one of semantics. It's difficult to listen and write an inverse list of omissions, so rather than write "there was no modification of the bass frequency range" we tend to say "the bass frequencies were extended and tight" or even more flowery language. We all do it and my reviews are as guilty of talking up the positives as many others. I know that a good cable doesn't add anything, but it's easier to describe the inverse. In my head, though, I'm searching (as with all my components) for the product which does least harm to the signal.
I don't think it's altogether to do with the amount of metal used, but how the plugs perform in terms of impedance and capacitance (and how well they make contact with the sockets).
I would agree.
Daniel Quinn
28-06-2012, 10:14
Martin , I don’t think it is a question of semantics . The difference is subtle but it is important
I have read a few of your reviews and I have no problems with them , the equipment is spelt out and it is tailored to your system . There is nothing wrong with describing what you heard in the context of your system by describing what it did to the bass, mid range or treble.
What is wrong is then imbue the cable with intrinsic generic qualities which transcend time and space and system to system . For example , the recent cable group test in HiFi world is rife with such conclusions and nowhere in the review is the equipment specified !! Nobody can be in any doubt that in reading reviews and marketing of cables that they are bestowed with intrinsic properties. How many time have you read words along the lines of “If your system needs a bit of bass , this cable is the one for you” or “It open , airy , transparent , its a bloody revelation “
This IMHO this is bollocks for the reasons spelt out . Which Is why I wrote :
Now Imagine if I am correct and there is far more empirical evidence that I am than there is to prove me wrong . This would mean every cable manufacture would be forced to sell their product on the basis off - “Try this cable in your system it may sound amazing , it may sound okay or it may completely fuck it up , I don’t know and you will only know if you try it”
My take on this?
I think Dennis should learn the different meanings of the words cheque and check, which he should have used! :lol:
Or use spell cheque! Joke by the way...........
Maybe English is not his first language. "to" and "too" and "as" for "has" seem a problem too:)
By the way Dennis I think you are right in your first post.
Daniel Quinn
28-06-2012, 10:48
Im from Oldham , there is no such thing as as and has :lol:
for those who mock , i respectively refer you to post 7.
“Try this cable in your system it may sound amazing , it may sound okay or it may completely fuck it up , I don’t know and you will only know if you try it”
Can't argue with you there!
Hopefully not too far off topic but I wonder if you more impedance-savvy guys could offer help?
I have added a pair of super tweeters to my Mission 774 speakers and I like the change they've made. However, if I turn the volume up, particularly on a track with a more prominent bass line, one channel cuts out. I've swapped the super tweeters and it is always the same super tweeter that iniates the channel drop. I am by-amping my speakers (one channel per amp) with a pair of Mini-Ts and the amp running the affected channel simply clicks and goes silent. Switching it off and back on again restores the channel until it happens again and turning the volume down a touch makes it happen less frequently. I am advised that the impedance may be too high for the Mini-T(s) to cope with.
My connectors at both ends of the cables that feed the super tweeters are bog standard silver plated screw down (not soldered) banana plugs. Is it possible to buy bananas with lower impedance or alternatively make lower impedance connections (lower than silver plated bananas that is :) )
TIA,
Dave.
That sounds like your amp is being induced into oscillation or becoming unstable. Possibly the supertweeter has a fault (leaky blocking cap?) and is forcing the amp to drive into protection. I would open up both tweeters and investigate - something is wrong. Also - on the offchance - check the cables feeding them.
something is wrong
Yea Dave, you've done your money son:eek::)
Covenant
28-06-2012, 18:51
It'd be interesting to see what you thought of the blue stuff. Granted it's twice what you'd normally be willing to pay per metre but wouldn't a free home demo even tempt you?
I know it might sound like I've got an agenda with how much I've bigged it up on here but I don't; I just think if something works well then why not spread the love? My brother said the same as you but gave it a shot and is keeping it now.
A very kind offer Martin and totally in the spirit of AOS but I would need long lengths of speaker cable, problematic I am sure. :)
The word 'fad' sounded derisory, I didn't mean it to be. 'Flavour of the Month' sounds as bad. It's difficult to find an appropriate word that describes a popular choice that may be quickly superseded by another product.
A very kind offer Martin and totally in the spirit of AOS but I would need long lengths of speaker cable, problematic I am sure. :)
The word 'fad' sounded derisory, I didn't mean it to be. 'Flavour of the Month' sounds as bad. It's difficult to find an appropriate word that describes a popular choice that may be quickly superseded by another product.
Based on 30+ years as a hi-fi fanatic I can honestly say I doubt if anything will be coming along any time soon to un-seat Tellurium Q, and long lengths are no issue whatsoever for me or any other TQ dealer as the blue is supplied in 50/100 metre reels for us to terminate ourselves, I sent a 12 metre pair out last week.
Just looking in my diary I have 6 sets out on loan and no money has changed hands for any of them yet as I run my business mostly on trust.
daytona600
28-06-2012, 20:48
Based on 30+ years as a hi-fi fanatic I can honestly say I doubt if anything will be coming along any time soon to un-seat Tellurium Q, and long lengths are no issue whatsoever for me or any other TQ dealer as the blue is supplied in 50/100 metre reels for us to terminate ourselves, I sent a 12 metre pair out last week.
Just looking in my diary I have 6 sets out on loan and no money has changed hands for any of them yet as I run my business mostly on trust.
must agree tellurium Q & black rodhium both british ICs & speakers & mains sounded better in my system compared to overhyped & over priced types like nordost Mit etc
Next time I'm down at Martin's place, I'll take my VDH's down and do a proper comparison with his TQs. Unfortunately, we never got a chance to do it the last time, as there was too much other stuff going on...
If the TQ's notably outperform my VDH's, which I know inside out and are no sonic slouches, then to my ears, that will prove the TQ's are genuinely worth all the praise they've been getting.
Look out for the results of that one, folks! :cool:
Marco.
Next time I'm down at Martin's place, I'll take my VDH's down and do a proper comparison with his TQs. Unfortunately, we never got a chance to do it the last time, as there was too much other stuff going on...
If the TQ's notably outperform my VDH's, which I know inside out and are no sonic slouches, then to my ears, that will prove the TQ's are genuinely worth all the praise they've been getting.
Look out for the results of that one, folks! :cool:
Marco.
The power cables were supposed to be looked at too dude but guess that was put on the back burner too?
The TQ black has so far tried but not beaten my MK II Ultimate in a few local bake offs. When you are going to Martins PM me and I will send Martin some TQ power cords to play with while you are there maybe? That would also be interesting to many I expect :)
I tried my Ultimates in Martin's system, and he loved them, but we didn't have any TQ power cords to compare them against.
Mike (Mike Music) brought a (£1000?) solid-silver Kimber one along, which was plugged into Martin's CDP, and both he and I preferred the Ultimate, when used in the same position.
Yup, having some TQ power cords to hand next time for comparison would be cool! :cool:
Marco.
That sounds like your amp is being induced into oscillation or becoming unstable. Possibly the supertweeter has a fault (leaky blocking cap?) and is forcing the amp to drive into protection. I would open up both tweeters and investigate - something is wrong. Also - on the offchance - check the cables feeding them.
Hi Martin,
Can I politely remind you that I'm a know-nothing numptie but I'm learning slowly ;). I may be able to spot a leaky blocking cap if it is physically distorted or split and spilling it's innards but if 'leaky' refers to electrical leaks (i.e. invisible to the naked eye) I'm gonna struggle :) .
Also how and what for do I check the cables feeding them? Are you talking the signal cables running from main speaker terminals to the super tweeter terminals or perhaps some internal cables? and are you meaning to check them for continuity (end to end and between cables?)
Sorry to be so higornorant ;) .
TIA.
Dave.
BTW Rob, thanks for your helpful contribution :rolleyes: ;) .
Hi Dave
If you're not technical and haven't got a test meter there's little you can do to find a fault like this. Yes, I was thinking of the feed cables from the main terminals to the supertweeters - could you swap them around without swapping the supertweeters? See if the fault moves. Otherwise, it's off to a specialist with the supertweeters for opening up and testing.
Marco - I now have two loan TQ power cables for testing. Unfortunately, they sent me 1.5m ones which are too short to reach my Power Plant P10, which is the most critical connection to the system. I'm going to try using the auxiliary fireplace socket tonight, which will reach the P10. If successful, I'll compare my Russ Andrews Signature in the same socket with them and will report back.
BTW Rob, thanks for your helpful contribution :rolleyes: ;)
Always here to help:)
Amazing - a cable thread and nobody is dead yet! ;) Some very valid points, Dennis.
I tried my Ultimates in Martin's system, and he loved them, but we didn't have any TQ power cords to compare them against.
Mike (Mike Music) brought a (£1000?) solid-silver Kimber one along, which was plugged into Martin's CDP, and both he and I preferred the Ultimate, when used in the same position.
Yup, having some TQ power cords to hand next time for comparison would be cool! :cool:
Marco.
That is why it is named as such because I and others have not come across anything any better yet regardless of cost. Plus it is available in any length required!
Marco - I now have two loan TQ power cables for testing. Unfortunately, they sent me 1.5m ones which are too short to reach my Power Plant P10, which is the most critical connection to the system. I'm going to try using the auxiliary fireplace socket tonight, which will reach the P10. If successful, I'll compare my Russ Andrews Signature in the same socket with them and will report back.
Yup, that would be interesting, Martin. However, we would really need to do it again with the Ultimates in the equation. That's one for our next session.
When are you going round to Mike's, btw? :)
Marco.
No date set yet as Mike is awaiting the arrival of various bits. We'll let you know.
Daniel Quinn
29-06-2012, 08:45
I would like to make it clear that I see no reason why my comments would not apply to Tellerium wires , this is despite certain contributors carrying on a seperate conversation within the thread promoting this product .
If i was paranoid i may be forced to think it was a deliberate ploy to dilute my comments without actually engaging with them and at the same time promote a favoured cable which concerningly it appears from certain remarks many people seem to have acquired free of charge . But I am of course not paranoid :lol:
No date set yet as Mike is awaiting the arrival of various bits. We'll let you know.
Cool! :)
Marco.
I would like to make it clear that I see no reason why my comments would not apply to Tellerium wires , this is despite certain contributors carrying on a seperate conversation within the thread promoting this product .
If i was paranoid i may be forced to think it was a deliberate ploy to dilute my comments without actually engaging with them and at the same time promote a favoured cable which concerningly it appears from certain remarks many people seem to have acquired free of charge . But I am of course not paranoid :lol:
Don't expect a cable thread to stay on the exact topic and if someone was giving free TQ cable away I would be first in the queue! Your original post was meant to start a debate and that is what is going on.
Lol... You are indeed paranoid, Dennis!
It's simply normal thread drift. You have to remember that AoS is a social community, as well as an audio and music forum, so people will often interject on threads, discussing the next bake-off, previous ones, etc, which has nothing to do with the thread topic :)
Marco.
Daniel Quinn
29-06-2012, 09:48
Don't expect a cable thread to stay on the exact topic and if someone was giving free TQ cable away I would be first in the queue! Your original post was meant to start a debate and that is what is going on.
Forgive my pedantry but debate???
The dictionary definition of a debate is discussion in which oppossing arguements are played out . Now I have read everyting you have placed on this thread 3 times and I'm sorry to say the only applicable desription to my mind is "advertising". ;)
I never considered that the connectors in an IC would have a profound effect on the sound before.
If you had an identical bit of cable connected with different RCAs, how much different would the results be? Or is it not as simple as that?
If you had an identical bit of cable connected with different RCAs, how much different would the results be? Or is it not as simple as that?
How long is a piece of string? I can't make any kind of rule for a single plug-swap experience. All I can tell you is that in my system with my interconnects used in the SUT to phono pre position, changing the supplied plugs for WBT 0110Ag made a profound (in my judgement) improvement to the sound quality.
A sample of one tells you nothing.
Daniel Quinn
29-06-2012, 15:01
How long is a piece of string? I can't make any kind of rule for a single plug-swap experience. All I can tell you is that in my system with my interconnects used in the SUT to phono pre position, changing the supplied plugs for WBT 0110Ag made a profound (in my judgement) improvement to the sound quality.
A sample of one tells you nothing.
:mex::mex::mex::mex::exactly:
P.s- to be even more of a pain in the arse , IMO getting rid of the plugs all together and hard wiring will make a difference , a difference which I do think transcends time and space and system to system . ie - A hifi rule is hardwiring is always best .
How long is a piece of string? I can't make any kind of rule for a single plug-swap experience. All I can tell you is that in my system with my interconnects used in the SUT to phono pre position, changing the supplied plugs for WBT 0110Ag made a profound (in my judgement) improvement to the sound quality.
A sample of one tells you nothing.
Improved or just different?
Would you say that a cable that is said to be smooth sounding could sound harsh/bright in a system because of the way that it interacts with the rest of the components?
Sounds like cable reviews are absolutely pointless then?
Improved or just different?
In this instance, a most positive improvement.
Would you say that a cable that is said to be smooth sounding could sound harsh/bright in a system because of the way that it interacts with the rest of the components?
Hard to say as there are far too many variables. I know what cables that I am familiar with can do, but again in the context of my system.
Sounds like cable reviews are absolutely pointless then?
I think they are a basic guideline for shortlists only. You absolutely MUST try cables in your own system. If you can't loan them, and there is no returns policy if you don't like them, then walk away.
IMO getting rid of the plugs all together and hard wiring will make a difference
Yes, I agree with you in that removing two more connection interfaces has to be a good thing, even if it highlights problems elsewhere. Unfortunately, there is no way in the world I am going to bastardise my system components in that way :eek:
In this instance, a most positive improvement.
Hard to say as there are far too many variables. I know what cables that I am familiar with can do, but again in the context of my system.
I think they are a basic guideline for shortlists only. You absolutely MUST try cables in your own system. If you can't loan them, and there is no returns policy if you don't like them, then walk away.
Thanks Martin,
Is it possible to borrow budget cables too? Say between £50-100 range? I'm using van damme ICs with Neutrik RCAs and would like to try some better ones at some point. Can you recommend a company?
Re: Hard wiring - I'm attracted to this because it removes one link in the chain, but it's just not practical, is it? What do you do, remove the connectors from the PCB? Ok for old kit, but not my shiny new amp or bushmaster!:eek:
Daniel Quinn
29-06-2012, 15:51
you both spotted the flaw in my hard wiring argument :lol::lol::lol:
Thanks Martin,
Is it possible to borrow budget cables too? Say between £50-100 range? I'm using van damme ICs with Neutrik RCAs and would like to try some better ones at some point. Can you recommend a company?
Both Mark Grant and Epiphany Acoustics do cables in that price range and offer a no quibble return and refund policy.
------------
I entirely agree that hard wiring is the optimum solution to the cable termination issue; unfortunately, it's just not practical in the majority of situations.
I never considered that the connectors in an IC would have a profound effect on the sound before.
If you had an identical bit of cable connected with different RCAs, how much different would the results be? Or is it not as simple as that?
Only recently I wrote up my experience (on this forum) of listening to the Mark Grant range of cables - they all use the same cable but use different connectors.
Is it possible to borrow budget cables too?
Mark Grant (Mark Grant Cables) and Dave Brooks (Mains Cables R Us) will both do what you need. Talk to them.
Only recently I wrote up my experience (on this forum) of listening to the Mark Grant range of cables - they all use the same cable but use different connectors.
Yep, just found it. Will have a read later.
Cheers,
Yep, just found it. Will have a read later.
Cheers,
Yes interesting article about the same cable but with different connectors, I agree with most of it but don't you think a lot of people won't have systems that are good enough to reveal the differences sonically?
If i was paranoid i may be forced to think it was a deliberate ploy to dilute my comments without actually engaging with them
And we'd have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!
Yes interesting article about the same cable but with different connectors, I agree with most of it but don't you think a lot of people won't have systems that are good enough to reveal the differences sonically?
How good would this theoretical system have to be? ;)
Is a system that does demonstrate an audible difference between cables necessarily better than one that doesn’t?
Perhaps the system that isn’t affected by cable change is better balanced and has better component synergy than one that does.
It is quite possible to imagine a system where the amplifier and speakers are so badly matched that a high capacitance cable may cause amplifier oscillation, or cable resistance adversely affects a bass driver’s response at its resonant frequency.
Is this a “good” system?
The notion that a good/revealing system is more likely to show cable differences is false imo.
I’m not going to argue that cables can not make a difference but I would suggest that in a properly set up system where some attention to the suitability of the various components has been technically understood and that same knowledge is used when picking cables, audible differences may not be so apparent.
:mex::mex::mex::mex::exactly:
P.s- to be even more of a pain in the arse , IMO getting rid of the plugs all together and hard wiring will make a difference , a difference which I do think transcends time and space and system to system . ie - A hifi rule is hardwiring is always best .
I've hardwired the majority of my system and while it may not have any audible sonic benefits it sure as hell saves a lot of money on aftermarket connectors. :)
Well in terms of connectors, I've just changed my Mark Grant G2000HD interconnects, which were up until now, fitted with WBT 0110Ag RCAs, for ones fitted with Eichmann Silver Bullet Plugs, and the results are very interesting indeed (particularly as they now 'marry' perfectly with the Eichmann Phono Pod RCA sockets, used on my Croft preamp, shown below)! :eek:
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/7936/phonopod400.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/phonopod400.jpg/)
Details here: http://www.vhaudio.com/phonopod.html
Could this be the best connector yet to partner Mark's superb G1000HD cable? More on that later... However, in the meantime, the blurb on the ETI site is interesting, particularly the rationale behind the design of their Bullet Plugs:
http://www.eti-research.com.au/index.php/our-products/retail-packs/bullet-plug-retail-packs
Makes a lot of sense to me :)
Marco.
Yep, I like the Eichmann stuff. I’ve never been too happy with great lumps of metal hanging off the ends of cables.
In fact, I’m so impressed with the ideas behind Eichmann that I coughed up for a set of standard Bullet plugs just so I could give the plugs a whirl on my one remaining set of non hard wired Belkin interconnects.
Will I be able to hear any difference? Hmm, maybe, but the technology makes sense and the plugs just about what I consider reasonably priced; roughly a tenner per plug bought through a trade account.
The issue with many cables/connectors is that the marketing is added after the design and often bears little relationship to how the cables and connectors work together. How many times do you read about "this cable sounds like this or that so buy it!". You can indeed take a cable and terminate it in a dozen different connectors and odds are that you will notice a difference between some of them. Some may sound brighter or some may appear to have more bass, or some may be more refined. The thing to remember is that the best cable is no cable at all, but since the signal has to flow down something, then terminated cables is what we're stuck with.
The importance of impedance matching between cable and connector is very often overlooked in favour of other factors, but along with a cable design which minimises capacitance (and phase shift) this is very important. Impedance mis matches can effect S/N ratios, bass and overall transparency.
I avoid using connectors in my own cables these days which I don't believe are first rate in this respect. The idea is to avoid signal degradation. When people say that "this cable sounds brighter than that one" or different somehow, I wonder what the reference is to make the statement? Possibly the cables that were last in use perhaps? The trick IMHO is to avoid those comparisons because you may plump for something that changes the sound, but also degrades the signal significantly, in effect masking problems with source components etc. A good cable and connector are ones which exhibit lowish capacitance and have very good impedance matching. Many RCA's are abysmal in this respect which is why such a difference can be heard between various connectors used with the same cable.
The other consideration is how the RCAs are terminated. A good crimped or screw terminated connection is generally electronically speaking better than the average soldered connection. If solder is to be used, then quad eutectic solders (ones which contain copper/silver/lead and tin) are generally better than standard solders as they are designed such that the solder melts and sets in one go without separate parts setting before others creating additional boundaries (which can contribute towards cold joints) and tend to bond better to the parent metal, the overall effect being a lower impedance soldered joint.
There's a lot to this cable milarky but the ultimate goal is signal integrity, so don't be fooled into thinking that because something sounds "different" that its better or more faithful to the original signal as the reverse could actually be true. Good design and the use of quality materials is the key along with good electrical contact. I use Furutech and Eichmann terminations as whilst both are very different in design, both are pretty damned good at maintaining signal integrity if properly terminated with good quality cable.
Yes interesting article about the same cable but with different connectors, I agree with most of it but don't you think a lot of people won't have systems that are good enough to reveal the differences sonically?
I don't really know what level of system 'most' people own, so your question isn't an easy one to answer. I did find the the difference between the various connectors was at least as pronounced, more so even, than that between many interconnects; so I guess if people think they can hear the effect of different interconnects in their system then they will probably be able to hear the effect of different connectors.
I don't really know what level of system 'most' people own, so your question isn't an easy one to answer. I did find the the difference between the various connectors was at least as pronounced, more so even, than that between many interconnects; so I guess if people think they can hear the effect of different interconnects in their system then they will probably be able to hear the effect of different connectors.
I would agree with that. It doesn't take a lot of digging up to realise that most digital sources and most amplifiers these days produce vanishingly small levels of distortion, so you are left with cables and loudspeakers. Loudspeakers produce by far the most distortion from the hifi chain.
To hear differences between these things clearly I find needs direct A/B comparison and to do that effectively, the speaker positioning must be right and the room acoustics must be right. Get these wrong and you'll be hearing all sorts of acoustic aberrations anyway so the difference between cables and connectors may well be less pronounced.
With vinyl front ends, distortion is greater (cartridges have distortion, LPs get worn and noisy, capacitance loading changes FR etc etc) but even so, it is still possible to pick out the improvements to be gained with properly matched connectors so that being the case, one could surmise that it is not imagination and is in fact quite significant. What this (shockingly) points towards, although many won't want to hear this, is that there's loads of cables being sold which don't cut the mustard (particularly with regard to the connectors). All things being equal, you'd hear far less differences between cables (assuming reasonable quality cable and cable geometry) had this NOT been the case.
The post earlier on about the speaker cable being one of the best which was illustrated by the fact that for long runs it was available in 100m reels...well so what?:scratch: That's not any indication at all of the suitability of that cable to be used in 100m pairs!!! Most cables are sold trade on either 50m or 100m reels irrespective of performance or budget, and 12m for a speaker pair isn't extraordinary. I've sold 9m pairs of Talk3 for systems. When one ges to those lengths, its impedance loading on the speaker amp circuit that matters. You could drive any loudspeaker using bell wire for a 12m length and it would work, but it would,'t be desirable because of the load it might place on the amp and because it wouldn't give the best results! Rule of thumb is up to several metres. a 1.5mm section is desirable and up to say 20m for most domestic situations, 2.5mm is more than adequate. I guess at longer lengths (ie 15m plus), the main problem is that get too inductive or capacitative a cable and you form a low pass filter and perhaps may lose up to 1 or 2dB off the top of the HF response. However speaker cables are affected at the upper reaches of HF response by skin effect at the voltages considered, and to a certain extent, by phase shift effects due to geometry; something which does not affect interconnects to any audible degree (nomatter what some may claim), so cable geometry and characteristic impedance are both important as speaker cable runs increase in length.
The thing to remember is that the best cable is no cable at all, but since the signal has to flow down something, then terminated cables is what we're stuck with.
Yeah, and the best HiFi is no HiFi at all, if you take the above statement to the logical conclusion :lol:
You lot do realise that pros have metres and metres of standard mic cables connecting all the stuff up and in the "good old days of analogue," racks upon racks of analogue processing (more interconnects), albeit in balanced configuration but this in itself put extra bits in the signal path. Didn't stop so many wonderful multi-track recordings being produced IMO...
Irrespective of the 'miles' of cables a studio may use, it didn't stop you from buying MG interconnects though, did it Dave.
Yeah, and the best HiFi is no HiFi at all, if you take the above statement to the logical conclusion :lol:
You lot do realise that pros have metres and metres of standard mic cables connecting all the stuff up and in the "good old days of analogue," racks upon racks of analogue processing (more interconnects), albeit in balanced configuration but this in itself put extra bits in the signal path. Didn't stop so many wonderful multi-track recordings being produced IMO...
Firstly we're not talking about balanced circuits, the post above refers specifically to single ended, and we're discussing the importance of connections from the point of view of maintaining the signal integrity of the recorded material. The studio engineer can alter and mix the sound to his or her heart's content at the end of all of those recording studio kit chains which is not the aim when reproducing it for maintaining the integrity of what the studio engineer ended up with. From a purely technical standpoint, surely the aim is to preserve the hard work of the studio engineer without taking or adding anything as the final aim (although we inevitably will lose something). It's minimising the losses which are important to me.
anthonyTD
01-07-2012, 10:57
Okay , this is where I would like to be little argumentative. :)
To place what I say below in context , I do not dispute that cables make a difference , but the differences I have so far experienced are not nite and day , they are subtle and also they are dwarfed by the differences hard wiring as made . I have played with dozens of interconnects [from phono to amp] . home made and up to £80 for 50cm. In my system and the I would say the differences would be no more than 5% . However, when I by-passed the phono plugs and hard wired the cable to circuit board the difference was immediate and significant .
My argument and the point which really pisses me off is the illusion that a cable can have an intrinsic sound . I consider reviews that state this cable as good bass , sparkly treble or open airy mid-range to be bollocks and part of the problem of obfuscation that many manufactures contribute to in order to shift product.
Do not get me wrong, the electrical properties of a cable [inductance, capacitance etc] I believe that in the context of a system can effect the bass, treble or midrange, but that does not mean a cable as an intrinsic sound , it is merely how it sounds in the context of a particular system . I do not believe a cable as an inherent and intrinsic sound which transcends time and space and system to system.
Intrinsic is dictionary defined as “essential character, the nature of a thing”. In the context of a piece of copper , silver or whatever material and its ability to reproduce music via electronic equipment this is a very dubious adjective to employ. [ As an aside I consider the use of adjectives to be dubious per se . Just cheque out any advert, comment or news bulletin and the more adjectives employed the more it is likely to be bollocks: facts do not need adjectives ]
You need only look at AOS and it is populated by contradictory and often polar opposite views on the same cable , now it cannot be that someone is right and someone else is wrong , it can only be that cables properties in one system do not transfer to another and in my opinion that is because the cable doesn’t have any intrinsic properties ,all you can really say is it sounds what is sounds like system A , but that sound cannot be transferred to system b, c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j etc . There may be similarities but that is probably due to coincidence and/or similarity in equipment.
Now Imagine if I am correct and there is far more empirical evidence that I am than there is to prove me wrong . This would mean every cable manufacture would be forced to sell their product on the basis off - “Try this cable in your system it may sound amazing , it may sound okay or it may completely fuck it up , I don’t know and you will only know if you try it” :lol:
Indeed , I often thought that a disgruntled cable buyer could sue the manufacturer for breach of contract or for selling a defective product pursuant of the Consumer Protection Act 1987.
I would suggest that the
Synergy of components is by far the most important aspect and this is why I firmly believe all cable should be sold on a try and return for refund basis and I would be suspicious of those that don’t .
For What its worth,
I tend to agree with a lot of what Dennis has written here, especialy the hilighted...
A...
I wish some of these discussions could be undertaken over a pint or three - we wouldn't take it all so seriously then :)
I do understand the whole balanced vs single ended thing here, but cable differences are still there, albeit very much smaller to insignificant I found using balanced ins and outs. Most domestic HiFi's distort and colour the sound hugely due to speaker and room interactions as much as anything else, and the thing for me, which the peeps on the HDD/AVI forum just don't seem to get at all, is the "suspension of disbelief" in domestic playback, where hopefully, the mechanics of the playback chain don't get in the way :)
Mark, from what you say in your observations, it's the plugs which made the biggest difference on the MG cable.
Mark, from what you say in your observations, it's the plugs which made the biggest difference on the MG cable.
Well, the actual cable used was the same in the four interconnects tried.....
so, yes, you could say the plugs made the biggest difference - but then they were the only difference.
I wish some of these discussions could be undertaken over a pint or three - we wouldn't take it all so seriously then :)
I do understand the whole balanced vs single ended thing here, but cable differences are still there, albeit very much smaller to insignificant I found using balanced ins and outs. Most domestic HiFi's distort and colour the sound hugely due to speaker and room interactions as much as anything else, and the thing for me, which the peeps on the HDD/AVI forum just don't seem to get at all, is the "suspension of disbelief" in domestic playback, where hopefully, the mechanics of the playback chain don't get in the way :)
Mark, from what you say in your observations, it's the plugs which made the biggest difference on the MG cable.
Spot on. Changing loudspeakers tends to have the biggest impact with most systems IMHO. What we're addressing I guess is getting the best from any given system, as it's the attention to detail which often results in that "suspension in disbelief" as you put it Dave and Mark's experiments with plugs are one example of that attention to detail.
Changing loudspeakers tends to have the biggest impact with most systems IMHO.
In terms of quantity perhaps, not so much in terms of quality.
In terms of quantity perhaps, not so much in terms of quality.
In terms of both Mark. Different designs impact upon frequency extension, phase shift, transient response, deviation from the "ideal flat" 20Hz-20Khz response and that's before the room interaction is considered. If it were merely SPL's that differed, all would be the same bar the "quantity" but that is so clearly not the case. Some offer better detail, some have better off-axis response, some have appalling FR and some have excellent FR. I guess it depends on your definition of "quality" ;) Personally, I've never owned two sets of loudspeakers that sounded the same, all were different. What makes one set "better"? There's the engineering explanation or there's simply personal preference; not always the same thing :) I guess from my own perspective, a "good" set would be those that allowed as much detail to be audible from the recordings as possible, had great imaging, no nasty lifts in treble or boominess at the usual 60Hz or so (in other words remained very balanced), could extend without too much roll off in-room below 40Hz and had good transient response. I'm happy that my current set of SHL5's tick those boxes, but remarkably few pairs I've owned managed it well.
MikeMusic
01-07-2012, 13:35
I tried my Ultimates in Martin's system, and he loved them, but we didn't have any TQ power cords to compare them against.
Mike (Mike Music) brought a (£1000?) solid-silver Kimber one along, which was plugged into Martin's CDP, and both he and I preferred the Ultimate, when used in the same position.
Yup, having some TQ power cords to hand next time for comparison would be cool! :cool:
Marco.
It is an early Kimber Silver Reference. *Retail* was, I think £2250
I got it for waaaay less than that, £500 I think, working on the basis I could move it on if it didn't work.
Can't remember that comparison clearly as we did so much, I thought there were plusses for both and that better plugs would make the Kimber better. It has an MK on one end and I think a Wattgate 350iAg on the other. Must check. Can also try a Clipsal instead of the MK
Definitely want to hear the TQ mains.
MikeMusic
01-07-2012, 13:36
Marco - I now have two loan TQ power cables for testing. Unfortunately, they sent me 1.5m ones which are too short to reach my Power Plant P10, which is the most critical connection to the system. I'm going to try using the auxiliary fireplace socket tonight, which will reach the P10. If successful, I'll compare my Russ Andrews Signature in the same socket with them and will report back.
Bring them over when you come over here !
MikeMusic
01-07-2012, 13:38
No date set yet as Mike is awaiting the arrival of various bits. We'll let you know.
All being well I get my bits (so to speak) Monday
Then I fettle a bit and let you know
In terms of both Mark.
No (Paul).
Of course speakers vary in terms of quality (and quantity), but they are not the primary source of said as you imply - that is my experience - the speakers can only reproduce that which is fed to them.
I see where you're coming from Mark. The speaker takes the signal, sure, but it's what we hear and how that is affected by the speaker and the room which is the final arbiter of what actually gets to us. I would argue that most other forms of distortion pale into insignificance compared with the speaker/room distortion. I've seen the odd figure quoted for loudspeakers for THD in the range of 10-15%, and suspect that figure isn't far out for many designs. Some are better and some are worse, but compare that to an amp (these days, THD can be vanishingly low <0.1%). Mute point but whilst loudspeakers just give out what's fed in, its not true to say that they all give out exactly what's put in, as the signal "quality" is affected by the design. IMHO of course ;-)
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