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Puffin
23-06-2012, 06:10
Not sure if this is the right section to post this in.

I think it is about time I got rid of our woefully poor quality VHS recorder. I would like a Hard Disk Recorder and it seems I need a PVR?

Our Panny Plasma has built in Freeview. It seems that some (perhaps all) PVR's will grab the freeview channels to allow you to record from them. I know nothing about these things and don't want to buy a machine that has many features I will never use. I just want to be able to record programmes.

I have seen Humax PVRs for around £100. Superfi have a Sagem on offer at present at £49.95 See Link

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-10524-sagem-pvr72160-twin-tuner-pvr-opened-box.aspx

Any help would be appreciated.

allsorts
23-06-2012, 06:59
At least twin tuner so you can record two channels and playback a previously recorded show. Down here in Oz we have standard def and high def tv channels, so a high def recorder gives you more options. I have found 500 gb hard drive adequate for my use. I had a scart connection on a tv and it wouldnt do high def. At present I have a TEAC model HDR-T3500 which was fairly cheap, is reliable and rarely misses a recording, It also has a passive standby which uses less than 0.5 watts. Some pvrs can use a lot of watts just on standby and they really need to be on standby if you are setting regular recordings or you often will lose all your scheduled times and that is a pita. The picture quality is in another league compared to tape.

dave2010
25-06-2012, 07:43
PVRs are good, and now definitely much better than VCRs. We have two, and experience of a third. For Freeview we have a rather earlier model Humax, and we have a fairly recent HD Freesat Humax model. I think the latest Humax Freeview models are similar to our Freesat unit.

We liked the earlier Digifusion PVR - it had a nice user interface, but unfortunately it gave out, just within the guarantee period - though that was fortunate as we got a Humax replacement for very little extra additional cost, which has been more reliable, though at first the user interface did not seem so easy to use. [We were within one day of having to buy a complete new one ourselves!] Do consider the user interface, though reports suggest that the Humax models are very good and reliable, which also counts a lot. There are now one or two other makes which are also good.

Generally PVRs have two tuners, and you can record two channels while watching a recorded channel. Sometimes you can also watch yet another live channel, but this depends if it is on the same multiplex. The technology for satellite and Freeview is slightly different, and may affect how many channels you can record/watch simultaneously. Watching/recording high definition channels will probably also have an impact, as HD channels tend to be allocated more bandwidth, and will possibly not be packed with other channels.

Most PVRs have a delay option also - which is the case with the Humax models. This allows you to pause a live channel for a while. For the Humax models this is about 2 hours. It may be important not to try other operations on a paused channel (other than restarting) as this may cause the recording on that to fail. There can also be a problem if the same channel is also being recorded. This is why we sometimes record in SD and watch the same program in HD.

Some PVRs allow you to copy the recorded material onto other media, such as a USB disc drive or memory stick. Early models weren't so good, but this is now fairly reliable for new models. You may experience problems trying to copy HD video files. This can be for several reasons. Firstly the files can be large, so you need a file system on the drive which will cope with large files (greater than 4 Gbytes). Next, machines such as the Humax use slightly unusual file systems, such as Ext3. You would need to format a drive using a Ext3 formatter. This is not too difficult if you use Ubuntu and gparted, and even a live Ubuntu disc (which runs under Windows) will do the job. Ext2 and Ext4 file systems, which are in theory compatible, will likely not work.
Lastly, once an HD file has been copied, it seems that it cannot be copied again. It looks as though there is some form of copy management system for HD files.

Copying off SD (Standard definition) video, and audio is not a problem, and the files can be viewed/listened to on a computer (PC or Mac or Linux) using software such as VLC. However extracting audio or video for other software may be trickier, and require the uses of a demultiplexer, such as Project X.

Other PVRs may not have this feature.

An earlier PVR we had (Digifusion) did have a useful feature, which was to compress stored files to a slightly lower quality video. This helped to conserve space, though the compression took quite a while. It was also possible to record in a more compressed mode initially. Newer PVRs may not have this feature, and may not need it anyway, as they tend to come with larger drives.

If you get a PVR get one with a large drive, and see if you can also connect an external drive.

Re copying files off, some PVRs also come with an integral DVD reader/writer. That could be really useful for people who want to store some material on DVDs. I know people who have combination machines who say they are good.

I don't know whether there are any which do hard drive plus Blu Ray (suitable for HD video) yet. Possibly not, and there could be constraints on recording HD TV to Blu Ray or other HD formatted discs. If any devices do HD to DVD that may be good enough for most purposes, but watch out for DRM and copy management restrictions.

I've not tried the very latest Freeview HD PVRs, though see no reason why they should not be good. Freesat is generally excellent. There are slight differences in the channels which are available on Freesat and Freeview, which you need to be aware of if you are keen on having all the channels.

Perhaps I should mention Sky+ boxes. If you have Sky I gather that these are good, and the Sky system arguably has higher resolution for HD than Freesat/Freeview, though there isn't much in it. It may be harder to extract video files from the Sky system.

Lastly, it is possible to get DVB tuner accessories which work with PCs and Macs. For the Macs I've heard that the Elegato devices are good, and may avoid some of the problems with storing HD video. I did have a USB stick/tuner which worked with my PC. It was fine and cost about £30 a few years ago. I'm not sure if there are HD USB tuners for Freeview or Freesat, but look around.

PS: Here is a USB stick which it is claimed will do HD video - http://www.amazon.co.uk/PCTV-Systems-DVB-T2-nanoStick-Tuner/dp/B004C1176E/ref=pd_sim_computers_1

dave2010
25-06-2012, 08:16
I have seen Humax PVRs for around £100. Superfi have a Sagem on offer at present at £49.95 See Link

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-10524-sagem-pvr72160-twin-tuner-pvr-opened-box.aspx
Looks like the Sagem model is SCART output. Might not work well with HD sets, so check that. Practically it could give a lower quality output, and it might force the set to upsample (or it may do upsampling internally). Better to go for a device with HDMI if possible.

Re the cheap Humax PVRs, I think there's a Humax site where they sell off refurbished or previous models. I get emails about this from Humax from time to time.

dave2010
25-06-2012, 08:23
At least twin tuner so you can record two channels and playback a previously recorded show. Down here in Oz we have standard def and high def tv channels, so a high def recorder gives you more options. I have found 500 gb hard drive adequate for my use. I had a scart connection on a tv and it wouldnt do high def. At present I have a TEAC model HDR-T3500 which was fairly cheap, is reliable and rarely misses a recording, It also has a passive standby which uses less than 0.5 watts. Some pvrs can use a lot of watts just on standby and they really need to be on standby if you are setting regular recordings or you often will lose all your scheduled times and that is a pita. The picture quality is in another league compared to tape.I think the HD standard you use in Australia may be slightly different from ours. This is because some Australian stations were doing HD in MPEG2. Here to receive HD we do need to have a new unit which can decode other formats, such as MPEG4. Also, they may have tweaked the modulation method for HD, so the transport layer is (maybe) also slightly different - again forcing the need for an HD specific unit. Even with SD, some older models of set top boxes no longer work because of systems changes, incompatible updates, etcetera.

I'd certainly recommend anyone in the UK to go for a new HD compatible PVR if possible. SD models may be cheaper, possibly may only output via a SCART connector, and there could be problems with picture width if an SD model is fed into a HD or HD ready TV. Better to go straight for an HD compatible model if possible, and "the readies" permit.

Mark Grant
25-06-2012, 09:00
Re the cheap Humax PVRs, I think there's a Humax site where they sell off refurbished or previous models. I get emails about this from Humax from time to time.

That will be the 'Managers Specials ' page at Humax direct, usually like new when they arrive.
http://www.humaxdirect.co.uk/prodCat.asp?cat=factory
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Puffin
25-06-2012, 16:21
dave2010. Blimey mate you have gone above and beyond the call of duty to give me all that info. Brilliant.

This is probably going to be a numpty question, but I have Freeview in the tele and a Sky SD box (free channels only). If a PVR is described as a Freeview PVR, does it make any difference to what you have already?

Thanks.

Rob.

dave2010
25-06-2012, 17:24
dave2010. Blimey mate you have gone above and beyond the call of duty to give me all that info. Brilliant.

This is probably going to be a numpty question, but I have Freeview in the tele and a Sky SD box (free channels only). If a PVR is described as a Freeview PVR, does it make any difference to what you have already?

Rob.If I understand you correctly, you won't need your Sky box (unless you want it as a spare, or for use with another TV) if you buy either a Freeview or Freesat box.

However, if you want to subscribe to all the Sky channels, then I'm guessing you may need to go the Sky+ box route. That's an area I'm less familiar with. I don't know if 3rd party kit will work with Sky.

The Freeview channels are pretty much the same as the free Sky channels I think, with just a few discrepancies. Similarly for Freesat. You can do Freeview without going for HD, but really I suspect it's going to be worth upgrading to HD now that it's much more widely available. Could be worth checking that Freeview HD does work well enough in your area though.

Freesat should definitely work, unless you have a very odd layout which obscures relevant parts of the sky - unlikely since you already have a Sky unit. Freeview may not work so well if you're at the bottom of a hill (!!) - but you can check that with your current TV using your aerial before you commit to a new box.

Actually, just picking up on that, if you substitute a 2 (or 4 way) LNB on the Sky dish - or indeed you may already have one, then you can use a Freesat box without much other modification. We have an old dish on the side of our house. I think originally it was for analogue satellite reception. I substituted a 2 way LNB, ran new cable into the living room, and attached the Humax Freesat box, and it all works. Saved me around £100 having a man out to fit a new dish. You don't need to mess around connecting Freesat boxes up to the telephone lines either, which I've heard might be necessary for Sky.

I'm getting much better at finding the satellite(s) too - and needed to re-align the dish not too long ago after work on the house. Took me a while, but I got there in the end. It starts off as a needle in a haystack problem, but once a flicker of a signal is found, then fine tuning it is really not too bad.

It does help to have some clues where the satellites are though, and some sites suggest noting where the sun is at around 11am - though that's only approximate.

Hope that helps.

Puffin
25-06-2012, 19:05
Great. Thanks. I have been looking at a HUMAX PVR-9300T 500 FREEVIEW+ *500GB LIMITED EDITION £150.

Rob.

dave2010
25-06-2012, 19:46
This costs a bit more, but is HD - https://humaxdirect.co.uk/product.asp?ProdRef=10104

How big is your TV? if it's big and HD or HD ready, then you might find the HD versions better. On the other hand, if the set is fairly small, then an SD model, such as the one you've mentioned, might be good enough.

I think you can get it for a bit less if you go for a grade A model - https://humaxdirect.co.uk/product.asp?ProdRef=10077

If you go for a smaller drive, then Richer Sounds can do it for under £100 - http://www.froogle.richersounds.com/product/freeview-freesat-pvr/humax/pvr9300t/huma-pvr9300

Mothman
25-06-2012, 22:02
A lot of the cheaper branded PVR's (Goodmans, Bush, Hitachi, Digihome ect) are all made by a company called Vestel in Turkey. Ebuyer used to sell refurbished ones cheap but now no longer seem to do them. We are on our second (first one lasted 3yrs) though it only now gets used now as a spare since we got a V+ box. Plenty for sale on ebay, may be worth taking punt if they have a decent returns policy. This site give a lot more info on all the different rebranded Vestel models http://www.vestelpvr.futaura.co.uk/

There is also firm in Romsey, Hants which refurbs the boxes but not sure if they sell direct to the public, if I can find the details I'll let you know.

Puffin
26-06-2012, 06:02
Cheers guys. I like the look of the lower capacity Humax, if I can get one for around £100. TV is an HD ready 42" Panny Plasma.

Rob.

dave2010
26-06-2012, 09:09
Cheers guys. I like the look of the lower capacity Humax, if I can get one for around £100. TV is an HD ready 42" Panny Plasma.

Rob.Normally I'd recommend getting the larger drive, but the cost differential is about £60 at current prices. That's a big differential for merely 150 Gbytes. You should be able to get an external drive which will give you a lot more space for £60-£80 - should you need it, and the newer Humax models work quite well with external drives.

Also, with the SD models, file sizes aren't too bad - mostly under 2Gbytes, apart from some long programs or films.

A lot depends on what you watch, and what - if anything - you want to keep. 300-350 Gbytes is plenty for tidy people who watch things, then delete them. You should find a PVR much better than your VCR.

If you do get one of the Humax models and later you want to back things off to a hard drive, then if you find you have large files you may need to use Ext3 formatting. I can tell you how to do that then.

Good luck with your purchase.