Where are the budget pre-amplifiers ? [Archive]

Yiangos

14-01-2009, 10:13

Why magazines don't review budget pre-amplfiers anymore? This is,together with loudspeakers,the most important part of the audio chain,for different reasons of course (just to avoid a debate lol).

Neil McCauley

14-01-2009, 10:25

David Price knows. But he might not want to say, or more likely not be able to find the time to say.

Marco has the direct line to DP. Based on a previous AOS experience it seems that DP is a sensitive soul and that he has requested 'prior warning' from Marco before engaging in AOS dialogues

All the rest of the responses – if coming from non-magazine staff, (and I include myself in this category) will probably be just noise masquerading as informed opinion and in that respect at least will probably be entertaining but next to useless.

Yiangos

14-01-2009, 10:41

Thanks Howard.....Gawd how i wish we were transported back to the eighties when hi-fi was simpler and more musical !!!

Neil McCauley

14-01-2009, 11:01

In the main, and speaking as a 'civilian' I agree with you.

However as a retailer, I have to say the situation, being right in the middle of the 'turntable wars' as very cogently and accurately described by Ken Kessler in the latest Hi-Fi News was no laughing matter.

I was championing the cause of Michell, Pink Triangle, STD and others while at the same time being Linn's #4 UK retailer and crime of crimes, not a Naim stockist. I was following the Linn ethos of A-B demonstrations but with the "wrong gear"!

The unannounced visits from Linn's self appointed enforcer Russ Andrews (yes, that one) was always a time of unalloyed pleasure for me as a consequence of me happily pissing him off , but not for the weaker dealers I suspect.

In that context at least, I believe I was the last man standing. After Subjective Audio, it seems that retailers were either [a] all Linn with a bit of Rega or [b] the other good stuff and no Linn.

So ...... I look back on the 1980s - as a retailer - with mixed emotions.

chris@panteg

14-01-2009, 11:04

Back in the late eighty's there was a lot of nice cottage industry valve pre amps about , i bought a concordant excelsior and there was also the rose and glen croft's pre, what memories

chris@panteg

14-01-2009, 11:08

Hi Howard
Do you remember the feud between PQ and Chris Frankland, it did not help much of course
but was fun reading ,i am sure most retailers wanted both of them to shut up.

Neil McCauley

14-01-2009, 11:09

Forget new - if you want real value.

For amusement and nostalgia, I bought a mint condition Meridan 501.2 from Dave at Green Home Electronics for £250 inc carriage.

Yes, my LFD, Benchmark and Manley preamps are in some respects superior - but not by much.

My advice to all my customers looking for high value low cost used preamps is to let me direct them to anything I find that is relevant on EBay and to get them to buy direct. I feel good, and so do they. It's an unusual approach I know, but why be a businessman all the time I ask myself? So I'm not.

My advice, based on direct personal experience is to look for any 500-series Meridian, the Audiolab 8000Q and yes, the underrated Quad 36. Also - the very rare battery-driven Technics preamp. No doubt other AOS members can suggest other vintage preamp bargains.

Neil McCauley

14-01-2009, 11:19

Hi Howard
Do you remember the feud between PQ and Chris Frankland, it did not help much of course
but was fun reading ,i am sure most retailers wanted both of them to shut up.

Yes, I do. All I wanted (I can't speak for other retailers) was for the 1980s editorial sheep to realise that the ‘garbage in – garbage out’ Linn ethos was very far from the whole story.

I argued – utterly unsuccessfully – that a tidal wave of detail if passed through a poor quality amplifier and mediocre speakers was still an unpalatable sound irrespective of how much detail you extracted from the groove. And the rest is history.

chris@panteg

14-01-2009, 11:33

Spot on Howard ,i put together my current system from the speakers (snell J) back because i know and love the sound' and have a much better system now than back in the eighties , so i have gone against the linn ethos as it were.

Yiangos

14-01-2009, 12:08

Marco has the direct line to DP.

David Price speaks with Marco ? I bet he is not aware he's using a Denon dl-103 ! lol

Marco

14-01-2009, 12:11

Oh he most certainly does! ;)

Marco.

Yiangos

14-01-2009, 12:22

Perhaps because of those sp100? Love those loudspeakers Marco.

Dave Cawley

14-01-2009, 12:39

Which budget pre-amplifiers would you like to see reviewed?

Dave

Yiangos

14-01-2009, 13:06

Hi Dave

Nothing in particular.I was just saying that budged tubed pre-amplifiers are not reviewed in magazines.

Marco

14-01-2009, 13:24

HFW have reviewed Croft stuff before - I think it was at the time their £800 model :)

Dave, that's a range of gear you should look at when it's released (should be due anytime) Glenn Croft's new valve preamps. My reliable sources tell me that they're quite exceptional, and the most expensive I think is around £1200. The rest are considerably less than that. Definitely worth checking out!

I'll bring my modded Charisma-X down and you can have a listen to it as a reference, although it's liable to be in a slightly different league.

Marco.

Dave Cawley

14-01-2009, 14:15

Are there any budged tubed pre-amplifiers?

Dave

Marco

14-01-2009, 14:21

Yes I've just described some above. What do you consider as "budget"?

Marco.

Dave Cawley

14-01-2009, 14:25

£800 !!! eight hundred quid!!! I thought we were talking budget here? Budget to me is £400

Hence my question, may be I'm living in 'la la' land, but the watches look soooo good

Dave

Marco

14-01-2009, 14:28

There may be some priced at a little less than that. The thing is, with Croft, you're talking £800 retail cost but £3000 worth of audio performance... You're only paying for the bits you need, not unnecessary fripperies or 'badge snobbery'.

Remember I only do 'giant-killers' in my system! ;)

Marco.

Dave Cawley

14-01-2009, 14:38

Yeah, but Yian asked about budget, it's his question. And the Croft is nearly a grand. So the quest is, budget valve preamplifier, anyone?

StanleyB

14-01-2009, 14:40

The thing is, with Croft, you're talking £800 retail cost but £3000 worth of audio performance... You're only paying for the bits you need, not unnecessary fripperies or 'badge snobbery'.

Remember I only do 'giant-killers' in my system! ;)

My local Croft dealer, who still got a selection of them on sale still, borrowed my 7510+ pre-production sample to give me some feedback. I shall spare you his comments;).

Stan

Marco

14-01-2009, 14:47

No, Stan, tell us what happened. All Croft designs aren't the same and so everything has an appropriate context :)

Marco.

Marco

14-01-2009, 14:51

Yeah, but Yian asked about budget, it's his question. And the Croft is nearly a grand. So the quest is, budget valve preamplifier, anyone?

For less than that it's a D.I.Y job, if you want any kind of decent performance. I would suggest World Designs kits. Or perhaps Icon Audio do something at the price point you're thinking of?

Marco.

StanleyB

14-01-2009, 14:52

Maybe so Marco, but I had nearly £20K of Croft amps battling to keep up with me on every front. I have an order from him on my list now:).

Dave Cawley

14-01-2009, 14:53

:idea:That's why they are not reviewed then?

Dave

Marco

14-01-2009, 16:23

Maybe so Marco, but I had nearly £20K of Croft amps battling to keep up with me on every front. I have an order from him on my list now:).

That's cool Stan, but everything in hi-fi must be judged on a system-to-system basis in order for results to be relevant. The other thing is, which Croft amps are you talking about at £20k? It's the simpler stuff that works best.

Let's have the model numbers, because if it's the over-complicated and vastly over-priced stuff Amar used to 'sell' 'on behalf of' Glenn (and I use those words loosely) then I can well understand the outcome you describe! ;)

Marco.

StanleyB

14-01-2009, 21:06

the over-complicated and vastly over-priced stuff Amar used to 'sell' 'on behalf of' Glenn I understand they were supplied by Glenn.

Dave Cawley

14-01-2009, 22:44

:confused:And this thread was ??

Steve Toy

15-01-2009, 00:17

about cheap preamps.

Marco

15-01-2009, 00:41

I understand they were supplied by Glenn.

Dunno, Stan - I know Glenn quite well and the stuff he's made over the years. He's, shall we say, not 'big' on making complicated uber-high end amps; they're just not his thing. The pricing isn't 'right' either for a true Croft product, so for me, they smack of Amar's shenanigans and were perhaps some sort of one-off 'specials' made for someone specific.

Did you buy them direct from Glenn himself or where did you get them from?

Anyway, I've not heard them so I can't comment on what they sound like compared to what I've got :)

Marco.

Togil

15-01-2009, 06:28

StanleyB

15-01-2009, 06:39

Music First passive amps.
A resistor is not an amplifier, no matter how big the casing is in which it is mounted.

Prince of Darkness

15-01-2009, 07:58

A resistor is not an amplifier, no matter how big the casing is in which it is mounted.

The Music First isn't a resistor, it uses multi tapped transformers. I agree it's not an amplifier, but I do feel it could be described as a pre-amp, as it is placed before (pre) an amplifier.:lolsign:
Opinions on the sound quality do seem to vary.

StanleyB

15-01-2009, 08:03

I stand corrected:doh:. So it is a transformer in a box called a preamp??? Then my local electricity substation must be a...:confused:

Ali Tait

15-01-2009, 12:50

If it's a cheap valve pre you are after,I'd check ebay out.There's Chinese stuff from the likes of Yaquin etc available at reasonable prices.No idea how any of the pre's sound as I've never tried any,but if they are anything like the amps,there will be some that are good,and with a few tweaks, very good indeed.

Marco

15-01-2009, 13:12

Marco has the direct line to DP. Based on a previous AOS experience it seems that DP is a sensitive soul and that he has requested 'prior warning' from Marco before engaging in AOS dialogues.

Hi Howard,

That's not quite how it is. It's simply that David rarely has the time to post so isn't often on line to see when he's being addressed, particularly when a thread has been posted 'in his honour'.

Therefore no-one should expect that he's going to see what's written here and if he doesn't reply automatically then assume that he's avoiding the question! ;)

Marco.

Haselsh1

16-01-2009, 09:43

What about a Croft Vitale at 350 quid brand new...???
The main problem here is that it has a maximum output of 40V which may require attenuation.

jandl100

16-01-2009, 10:16

I had an YS Audio Chinese valve rc pre-amp for quite a while - and it was damn good vfm at £400 or so I think. Really nice sound. Mine was 2nd hand and cost £200 and something.

Mine was similar to this one on eBay ... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/YS-Audio-Symphonies-Plus-Tube-Preamp-Preamplifier_W0QQitemZ260261876516QQihZ016QQcatego ryZ12050QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_tr ksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

Roll a few tubes and it sounded even better.

And if you're a DIY tweaker you'll probably be in Hog Heaven! :)

John

16-01-2009, 20:45

I used to use the Music First and compaired to most of my so called preamps EAR 864 Advantage (sorry forget the model Number) and the Musical Fidelity xp100 (that was really bad) it sounded a lot better. Going back to an active I have a lot more Bass and seems to suit my power amp better.
The Music First is not the world beater that is often claimed but still creates good sounds

Ali Tait

17-01-2009, 10:25

The problem with pre's like the Music First is that the input/output impedance varies with the volume position,so you will get different sound at different volume levels.The way round this is to have buffer stages before and after the pre.Something like the little buffer stage from Indeed Hi Fi (search them on ebay) would help matters,and they are cheap too.Anyone with these types of pre should try this first before selling as they tend to be quite expensive items,and this cheap fix may vastly improve things.I don't have a pre like this,so haven't tried it myself,but I reckon it would improve things greatly.

sastusbulbas

18-01-2009, 21:12

The problem with pre's like the Music First is that the input/output impedance varies with the volume position,so you will get different sound at different volume levels.

Hmm,

I cannot find anything relating to that in any of the MF passive reviews, in fact they seem to contradict that, I was under the impression that due to it using transformers impedance was not a problem?