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StanleyB
18-06-2012, 06:03
I need a bit of help here from the laptops expert with a problem that someone is experiencing. I think that I know the answer, but I just want to make sure. It will also be a good chance to get the input of alternative sources, rather than just relying on my own patchy knowledge.

The case:
A customer of mine is using his laptop to send audio to the Bushmaster via a USB to SPDIF adapter. He is experiencing random dropouts in the music. His initial suggestion was that it could be the Bushmaster. But for good measure he took it round to someone else who tried the USB adapter on his own laptop with the BM. Everything works fine as far as I understand it.

The laptop:
Dell Inspiron 510m
RAM - 510MB
Hard drive 160GB with 80GBfree
Processor Intel Pentium R M processor 1.60GHZ
0perating system - Windows XP home edition
Media player Foobar2000/ASIO

My conclusion
The amount of memory seems far too low for me for use as a media player let alone for use as a source feeding into a USB adapter and then into a DAC.
Taking into account the memory requirements for decoding the audio file and the IRQ time polling for USB connected devices I wouldn't give the laptop much, if any, chance of playing music without random dropouts.
The memory overhead requirement far exceeds the actual available memory as far as my knowledge on these matters is concerned. But I could be wrong in many respects, which is why I need a bit if help in trying to absolve the laptop of any blame and narrow things down to the USB adapter and the Bushmaster.

Rambaud
18-06-2012, 06:24
I would tend to agree with the not enough RAM as the culprit. It (512Mb) is barely enough to run Windows XP, IMHO.

It seems to be a 8 year old model and uses an integrated graphics card to further reduce the amount of available RAM.

NRG
18-06-2012, 06:39
Get your customer to check if XP is accessing the page file continuously, a visual check of the drive access LED would confirm if memory pages are being swapped in and out while streaming, it should be just an occasional access.

You can also check with the Task Manager, points to look out for are:

If the Total Commit Charge exceeds the Total Physical Memory, XP has to use the virtual memory page file that is substantially slower than physical memory, suffering performance degradation as a result. One excellent reason to load the system with RAM.

Compare the Commit Charge Peak to the Physical Memory Total. If the Commit Charge peak is higher than the Physical Memory Total, not only is the page file being used, but the System Cache is not being used. Keeping the installed RAM well above the average Commit Charge peak allows XP to use the extra RAM for System Cache.

Keeping the Commit Charge Peak running well below the Total Physical Memory allows you to decrease the size of the page file, reclaiming hard drive real estate that can be used for storage rather than slow virtual memory.

From: http://www.theeldergeek.com/sizing_the_page_file.htm

slate
18-06-2012, 07:02
The integrated Intel Extreme graphics 2 shares up to 64MB of system memory so it is not that criminal.

I expect that it is used as a dedicated music server, ie all unnescesarry programs is removed or disabled.. no antivirus, Flash, Google toolbar, java, etc... just xp itself and then disable unwanted services.
It should be possible to get XP below 256 MB usage

Use ccleaner to flush the system and disable unwanted startup items.

Perform defragmentation of harddrive.

Hmm isn't there a tread on here about PC playback...

sq225917
18-06-2012, 07:26
A Raspberry Pi will work as a music server, so available ram is not the issue, it's the combo or ram/IRQ/USB bus priority and that in combination with the Bushmaster and its ability to lock onto sources of widely varying signal quality.

For example the Mdac does the same with poor Spdif sources, dropping out occasionally. To fix this there's an option to widen the PLL bandwidth to work with crappy sources and achieve a better lock.

A better usb/spdif might be a logical and simple place to start, as something like a Hiface will reclock the incoming data potentially removing the sync issue. If he's already using a Hiface then he's in trouble as that means his pc really is just not up to the task at hand.

WAD62
18-06-2012, 07:45
I agree with most of the above, it'll be thrashing the swap file...

Also given it's probably a single core processor, up the priority of the media player if you can, and increase all available buffer sizes, FOOBAR/ASIO.

Whack some more RAM into it, given it's a Dell it should be easily sourced, and reasonably cheap, 512 is just asking for trouble...;)

sondale
18-06-2012, 07:46
For details of how to setup an XP machine for music the best place is http://www.cicsmemoryplayer.com/ . It is not normally setup on a laptop but the site contains lots of info re services / usb.

MartinT
18-06-2012, 07:52
That's far too little RAM for XP SP3 (assuming he has Service Pack 3 installed, otherwise that's the first thing he should do). It needs a minimum of 1GB and preferably 2GB RAM. Disk thrashing as it moves applications in and out of swapfile will be causing the dropouts.

brian2957
18-06-2012, 08:39
The laptop has been maximised for use as a music server only . Can you guys tell me if the processor is up to the job. Is this probaby a RAM issue ? Can I buy a 1GB Ram card from Ebay and add to the 512Mb or should I buy a 2GB RAM . Is 2GB enough ? I currently use a Gatorized Caiman with Silmic mod with this laptop without any issues and it sounds excellent. I really don't want to send the Bushmaster back since it sounds fantastic in another system and I'm pretty sure that I will get fantastic results in my system . Incidentally I Foobar/ASIO on the laptop at the moment . Would an upgrade to Windows 7/JRiver help. Or should I just get shot of the bliddy laptop ang buy a higher spec one . If so minimum specs please.All suggestions gratefully condidered.
Thanks,
Brian.

brian2957
18-06-2012, 08:40
That's far too little RAM for XP SP3 (assuming he has Service Pack 3 installed, otherwise that's the first thing he should do). It needs a minimum of 1GB and preferably 2GB RAM. Disk thrashing as it moves applications in and out of swapfile will be causing the dropouts.

Thanks Martin , I have to confess that I don't know if service pack 3 is installed '
I will try and check.
Brian.

Welder
18-06-2012, 08:45
Hmm, I don’t agree. My Sony Vaio has
1.6GHz CPU
512 MB RAM
XP Service Pack 3
ASIO4all/foobar
And, it’s at least 6 years old.

I can play 96/24 flac files no problem and 192/24 (with the right Dac) providing I reset ASIO4all buffer.
My daughter had a similar machine and when I set an identical player/asio on that it played without problem.
I’ve tried a couple of USB/SPDIF converters on my machine with the above and that worked fine as well.

As for needing extra RAM, well that’s nonsense.
What you may find is you need to curtail some of the more CPU intensive services or, it is possible that the USB hub isn’t providing sufficient power for Dac/Converter.

I would look at getting the laptop set up properly to play audio via USB.
As mentioned many times before here on AoS, more often than not drop outs are caused by system processes and rarely have anything to do with hardware.
Bear in mind some very low powered machines have been used to great effect as music servers.

StanleyB
18-06-2012, 08:46
Thanks for the quick replies guys. He mentioned that it worked OK with the Caiman, but this doesn't surprise me necessarily. The Caiman uses an input receiver that was designed in the 1990's and has a very wide frequency capture ratio. Not good for today's high signal quality demand and low jitter performance, but that's another story.
I also agree that the USB IRQ could put an additional demand on the timing accuracy. The BM uses a crystal locked oscillator, which of course will act as a discriminator for any out of bound signal deviations.

Interesting stuff and new challenges when working with the latest technology, but not necessarily a solution for customers who are accustomed to backwards compatibility. I suppose I shall have to offer him a refund and suggest staiying with the Caiman or getting a MDAC.

StanleyB
18-06-2012, 08:50
I can play 96/24 flac files no problem and 192/24 (with the right Dac) providing I reset ASIO4all buffer.
I have had numerous problems with ASIO myself so I would agree with you that this should be a further source of investigation. He does mention the use of it.
Unfortunately he is not a PC expert and I am not sure if his mate who is helping him out is equally adapt at such things.
Anyhow, I shall persevere with whatever help I can provide, but I don't want to inconvenience the poor chap with tampering with is machine set up and then finding that it no longer works..

MartinT
18-06-2012, 08:58
To check for the service pack, go to Control Panel | System, which will tell you.

Don't assume anything about RAM, you don't know whether your laptop has a single RAM slot (which means you will have to replace the current one), or two slots. You also don't know what maximum size RAM it will take, or which kind. Some older laptops can only take a 1GB stick maximum.

Use a good online RAM checker and put your laptop details in. It will give you max size, type and no. of slots.

Here's the Kingston one:
http://www.kingston.com/us/memory/search/options/

Welder
18-06-2012, 09:02
There are a few threads here on setting up XP, foobar/asio4all and process optimisation Stan.

(I think I probably wrote most of them :eyebrows: )

MartinT
18-06-2012, 09:03
Hmm, I don’t agree. My Sony Vaio has
1.6GHz CPU
512 MB RAM
XP Service Pack 3
ASIO4all/foobar
And, it’s at least 6 years old.

And I don't agree, I've worked on enough machines to know that XP SP3 will thrash horribly in only 512MB RAM. All that thrashing is going to cause delay to many processes even if you've optimised the machine for only media playback. You might find that it settles down after a period of time once all the running services and apps are in memory, but it doesn't make sense to have such little RAM when it's so cheap to upgrade.

StanleyB
18-06-2012, 09:06
There are a few threads here on setting up XP, foobar/asio4all and process optimisation Stan.

(I think I probably wrote most of them :eyebrows: )
I have indeed seen them, and I have suggested to the client and his assisting friend to read up on them. But as you can imagine, not everyone can connect up missing dots.

brian2957
18-06-2012, 09:08
To check for the service pack, go to Control Panel | System, which will tell you.

Don't assume anything about RAM, you don't know whether your laptop has a single RAM slot (which means you will have to replace the current one), or two slots. You also don't know what maximum size RAM it will take, or which kind. Some older laptops can only take a 1GB stick maximum.

Use a good online RAM checker and put your laptop details in. It will give you max size, type and no. of slots.

Here's the Kingston one:
http://www.kingston.com/us/memory/search/options/
Thanks for that Martin . The laptop is running on service pack 2 at the moment. The laptop will take a maximum of 2GB Ram and it has 2 card slots.
Brian.

Welder
18-06-2012, 09:09
That's why one optimises processes Martin.
If you insist on having the laptop running in full bells and whistles mode and ask it to stream music as well, granted, you're likely to run into problems. :)

brian2957
18-06-2012, 09:20
I have indeed seen them, and I have suggested to the client and his assisting friend to read up on them. But as you can imagine, not everyone can connect up missing dots.

You're certainly right there Stan . This is an area which I know very little about . Members like John , Martin and Tim have given me their valuable time in the past for which I am most grateful. Gary (Gazjam) has also provided me with a lot of help recently and my system is sounding all the better for it.
Thanks once more for all your help guys.
Brian.

Welder
18-06-2012, 09:26
While this may not initially seem that helpful Brian (I know we communicated about this before ;) ) given you are having problems, now might be the time to abandon Windows XP which can prove intransigent and try out Linux. :)

I'm sure you know where some instructions are.

Rambaud
18-06-2012, 09:28
I upgraded the g/f's 6 year old Dell Laptop to 2Gb of RAM (and Windows 7) and the extra RAM was advantageous.

RAM is pretty cheap nowadays - it was "only" ~ £80.00 to install 16Gb in my macbook.

But the biggest improvement was adding a SSD (I had a spare which I was not using). The machine is a lot snappier.

MartinT
18-06-2012, 09:29
The laptop is running on service pack 2 at the moment.

If the laptop is connected to the internet, that's not very safe and you should upgrade to SP3 ASAP (but only after you upgrade the RAM or it'll take hours and hours). If you don't connect to the internet then no worries.

Welder
18-06-2012, 09:38
I upgraded the g/f's 6 year old Dell Laptop to 2Gb of RAM (and Windows 7) and the extra RAM was advantageous.

RAM is pretty cheap nowadays - it was "only" ~ £80.00 to install 16Gb in my macbook.

But the biggest improvement was adding a SSD (I had a spare which I was not using). The machine is a lot snappier.

Windows7 needs that extra RAM; XP will run quite happily with 512MB.
I suggest that in Brian's case, throwing money at the problem isn't the best answer.
A trawl around the net should demonstrate that many get more than adequate performance from low CPU and RAM machines that are properly set up for music streaming.

brian2957
18-06-2012, 09:46
If the laptop is connected to the internet, that's not very safe and you should upgrade to SP3 ASAP (but only after you upgrade the RAM or it'll take hours and hours). If you don't connect to the internet then no worries.

Thanks Martin , the laptop would only be connected to the internet to download Foobar/ASIO or JRiver . So is seldom used for the internet . Thanks for the advice.
Brian

brian2957
18-06-2012, 09:50
While this may not initially seem that helpful Brian (I know we communicated about this before ;) ) given you are having problems, now might be the time to abandon Windows XP which can prove intransigent and try out Linux. :)

I'm sure you know where some instructions are.

Aye John , hope you are well. You were a great help then and I've been happily listening to my file-based system since. I printed off a lot of your excellent advice and have dug it out and started reading it again.
brian.

WAD62
18-06-2012, 10:17
The laptop has been maximised for use as a music server only . Can you guys tell me if the processor is up to the job. Is this probaby a RAM issue ? Can I buy a 1GB Ram card from Ebay and add to the 512Mb or should I buy a 2GB RAM . Is 2GB enough ?

If you stick with XP, and use it solely as a music player then 1Gb should be plenty...

Sometimes the memory needs to be in matching pairs, depends on the type of memory...but if you can mix them then 1Gb extra would sort you out.

If you go to W7 then I'd suggest at least 2Gb, as it uses about 1Gb for the O/S, roughly double that of XP, and as you are already using ASIO I don't see much of an advantage in using W7, it does permit WASAPI, but ASIO achieves the same results, if not better...:)

ZebuTheOxen
18-06-2012, 10:20
Windows7 needs that extra RAM; XP will run quite happily with 512MB.
I suggest that in Brian's case, throwing money at the problem isn't the best answer.
A trawl around the net should demonstrate that many get more than adequate performance from low CPU and RAM machines that are properly set up for music streaming.
Vanilla XP did run fine on 512MB of RAM (Even as low as 256MB), but progressive Service Packs with fixes and features eventually bloated the OS up to needing at least 1GB, preferably 2GB for smooth performance.
There are easy ways to pare back the number of services running in the background which any proficient computer user can do to help make the computer run more speedily. Uninstalling programs you don't use helps significantly.
Not everyone needs (or wants) to be proficient with computers, so getting more RAM is the easiest solution.

brian2957
18-06-2012, 10:26
Thanks guys , I've already had someone to have a look and trim useage back as much as possible.
Brian.

maxrob200
18-06-2012, 12:33
If the laptop is eight years old, would it only support USB 1.0 or 1.1? Would that impact on the transfer rate thus creating dropouts if the files are large

Gazjam
18-06-2012, 12:39
I'll be taking a look at Brian's laptop tommorow.

My first instinct was to stick Windows 7 on it, but I hadn't realised Brians laptop only had 512MB ram which isn't ideal for WIn7.

I'd like to see first if I can optimise the hardware he has before spending more on ram upgrades etc as the CPU I/O subsystem may be a few generations old as well and may contribute to the problem.
Assuming it is hardware related of course...

Software wise, first step is to fire up CCleaner and Autoruns, delve deeper into what processes are running in the background.

I don't think its the Software player or ASIO, as the stuttering occurred with both Windows Media Player and Foobar...so my instincts tell me its a hardware resource problem or an issue with the XP sound subsystem, which is very different from the one in Windows 7.

Are any other Bushmaster Users running XP in their PCs successfully??


*EDIT*
Had a PM from another BM owner experiencing similar problems with his laptop.
I'm not sure what his system specs/OS is though, so will try to find out.

Will be good information to help troubleshoot the problem.


Its worth mentioning too that Brian's USB adapter isn't the source of the problem as we tried a MF Vlink2 with his laptop/BM and the problem was still there.

brian2957
18-06-2012, 12:47
Sorry ,Stan and Gary, I forgot that we used the V-Link . We tried so many different options to try and pinpoint the problem .
Brian.

StanleyB
18-06-2012, 12:50
*EDIT*
Had a PM from another BM owner experiencing similar problems with his laptop.
I'm not sure what his system specs/OS is though, so will try to find out.

Good idea. If you can find out quickly I can then put a note for clients to refrain from using the BM with XP until we know a lot more about the possible causes.

NRG
18-06-2012, 13:39
Are any other Bushmaster Users running XP in their PCs successfully??



Well I'm running Logitech Media Server on an old HP T5720, 1GHz proc and 1Gb of RAM with XP and SP3. It copes well, 1Gb RAM does help but I've got a 256MB Ramdisk running and the Graphics card steals 16mb, so 750MB is available.

I've killed all unnecessary processes and have 24 running. Background apps are MS Security essentials, Ultra VNC and a USB NIC configuration utility.

I think if you clean his system up and kill all unnecessary processes and and apps it should be fine with 512MB...1GB would make life easier though!

Edit: I uses 128MB of the Ramdisk for the swapfile and the rest for temp folders including IE

Tim
18-06-2012, 13:53
I think most has been mentioned already and I totally agree that RAM is the likely problem, but I would also look at Foobar? I have used a DELL D600 1.6GHz single core laptop with 1GB RAM and XP SP3 which experienced dropouts with Foobar, but not JRiver's media player - has another media player been tried, has the WASAPI plugin been tried with Foobar as well, to see if there are still dropouts? Foobar does not like Asynchronous output as well, it will work with some hardware combinations, but its picky so don't put the V-Link in the chain until you have ironed out the problems first would be my advice. If you use Foobar and an asynchronous device, you need to reduce the buffer to as low as Foobar will allow, but again try JRiver as this is more forgiving with asynchronous I/O, at least it has been in my experience.

Putting Win7 on would offer an improvement IMO, but only after the RAM has been updated - 2GB for a 32bit installation and 4GB for a 64bit installation, but its likely a 64bit O/S would not be compatible on such an old machine?

I have also successfully used the same DELL D600 with only 1GB RAM, XP SP3 and Foobar with both ASIO4all and WASAPI. However, it was a totally clean XP install and everything that wasn't needed either disabled or uninstalled. Without spending any money I would first try WASAPI, then JRiver but would aggressively cut back on Windows Services. I don't think this will solve it though, but its worth a try. I think more RAM would be the next step, or taking the step to install Ubuntu on there and a Linux player - John has guides here somewhere?

After that and in all honesty I would look at a new laptop, rather than a new Windows 7 install and RAM, as the cost difference is not huge, but the performance improvement would be significant, but you 'should' be able to get good performance with 1GB RAM and XP SP3, if you really don't want to spend too much money. Martin has mentioned Kingston to check for RAM configurations, Crucial also have a good RAM tool - Crucial System Scanner Tool (http://www.crucial.com/uk/index.aspx?gclid=CMnli-D217ACFUdlfAodFx5A1w&cpe=pd_google_uk&ef_id=5H5P3xRurAkAAAcg:20120618134833:s)

Even without trying a BM I would be inclined to think its more a hardware/software conflict rather than the DAC. DAC's and operating systems can be very problematic at times, what works for many people just won't for others. But you need to start with a fresh slate IMO, i.e. a totally clean O/S install and then work from there. It took me days to get my HRT DAC working correctly in an installation that was no problem for a Caiman or a REGA DAC. I got there in the end, but there was much gnashing of teeth and swearing along the way.

Welder
18-06-2012, 14:19
XP with Service Pack 3 runs fine with 512MB RAM. :doh:
The only time uninstalling programs makes any sense regarding performance is if they are configured to autorun at start up. Far better to make them manual startup.

I’ve just checked my multi partitioned laptop. I have a few OS installed including Windows XP with Service Pack 3, foobar2000 and asio4all.
It is still internet able but has had some fairly aggressive optimization done to it.
It happily plays 24/96 without stuttering. I don’t have any true 192/24 files to test here atm.
(HRT asynchronous Dacs, also worked fine with a V-link and my buffalo Dac)

When playing 24/96 flac files via USB it uses no more than 11% of the available 512MB RAM. :)

@Gary
May I suggest you equip yourself with a few easy to use tools when you visit Brian.

http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

Minimise foobar and run while music is playing. If you get a peak on the graphical display when the dropout occur the probability is a system process is interrupting the CPU concentration of the task in hand.
An often misunderstood aspect of a CPU is the assumption that they carry out multiple processes at the same time. In fact CPUs carry out one process at a time but do it very quickly…very roughly. So it is quite easy for a process request to interrupt a CPUs concentration on the task of moving audio data.

This is an excellent program for the novice/intermediate user http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb963902.aspx

You can see with this program what services are using and when.

This will do at least some of the optimization for you. Make sure you protect your current home page etc when installing.
http://www.windowsxlive.net/fidelizer

Windows XP has a default USB polling rate of 125Hz. I have been told by those who have had stuttering problems with Dacs I haven’t tried that increasing the polling rate has helped. If you are interested in hacking the polling rate, let me know and I’ll upload a program for it.

This can help you see whether a USB hub has demands other than the USB Dac.
http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Utilities.htm

On this site you can get pre configured applications for most Windows systems that will strip that system doen to bare minimum, or by using their information pages, work out what can and cant be removed and at what functionality cost.
http://www.blackviper.com/
This imo is by far the best option. If you take the time to do things step by step then not only do you learn a bit about computers, you also have an idea of what to replace/amend if you feck up.

All the above are free and work with XP.
There are other links I’ve given elsewhere to sites that mainly deal with memory player set up.

Gazjam
18-06-2012, 14:33
Cheers John,
Know most of those but wasn't ware of the DPC Latency checker...

cheers for the link.

We'll get to the bottom of it. :)

Welder
18-06-2012, 14:44
It is also worth adjusting asio4all buffer and making sure foobar is correctly set up to handle the bit depth of the files. I've not found any advantage in adjust the foobar default buffer.

I doubt very much whether you can even get Win7 to install on a laptop with the above specs. It is possible to instal on a more capable machine, strip and then reinstall on a low powered machine but its complicated and there is imo no sonic advantage.

@Tim.
I think you'll find WASAPI doesn't work with Windows XP.
There did used to be a KS plugin for foobar that worked with some earlier foobar issues but doesn't seem to with recent issues.

Forgot to mention there are numerous applications that will tell you how much RAM/CPU is in use. Best check gaming sites or overclocking sites for the current favorites.

MartinT
18-06-2012, 15:04
Forgot to mention there are numerous applications that will tell you how much RAM/CPU is in use.

CPU-Z (now CPU-ID) is the best. Great little app.

http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html

Welder
18-06-2012, 15:24
CPU-Z (now CPU-ID) is the best. Great little app.

http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/cpu-z.html

Yep +1 here. use that on my gaming computer.

brian2957
18-06-2012, 15:37
Thanks very much for all the help guys .
Brian.

Tim
18-06-2012, 16:43
I've not found any advantage in adjust the foobar default buffer.
John, I couldn't get the HRT which is an asynchronous DAC to work in Foobar with the buffer set above anything than its lowest setting. I get dropouts and stuttered play, especially when using the WASAPI plugin, it is however a lot more stable with ASIO, but nowhere near as good as when using JRiver as the media player. Mind you that is on a Windows 7 machine and not XP.


@Tim.
I think you'll find WASAPI doesn't work with Windows XP.
:doh: My bad, yes of course you are right - no XP support, ignore me....

As ever some very good advice and useful links John, especially the BlackViper website.

On reflection I think I tend to agree with you John, in that 512MB of RAM should be able to run just a media player with XP, if its set up correctly and with nothing else hogging the RAM. I'm at home now and can check a bit more than when I was in the office earlier. My 64bit Win7 machine uses less than 700MB with JRiver running all the bells & whistles and using Radmin as a remote server on the machine as well. Foobar takes that down to just over 600MB and that's also with an integrated nVidea ION graphics chip. JRiver running on its own, only uses 29MB so I think you should be able to run a 32bit XP install with just Foobar in 512MB RAM.

So that pretty much renders a lot of my previous information redundant :(

Tim
18-06-2012, 16:52
Just found this thread on Head-Fi and its not particularly related, but it does illustrate that DAC's and some installations can be troublesome with Foobar. I found it interesting reading...

HRT HeadStreamer: WASAPI woes in FooBar (http://www.head-fi.org/t/593826/hrt-headstreamer-wasapi-woes-in-foobar)

I don't use Foobar often anymore, its a great free media player but it does have its limitations.

Mark Grant
18-06-2012, 16:54
I'll be taking a look at Brian's laptop tommorow.


Probably worth formatting and reinstalling XP if it is an old laptop that has been used on the internet etc.
Takes a while on a slow machine and the updates take for ever to download but is usually worth it so you can start tweaking with a clean install.
I always save an image as soon as windows is fresh so it is easy to go back should anything be 'over tweaked' in the registry etc.

Gazjam
18-06-2012, 16:55
Brian and I had the stuttering/crackling problem with both Foobar and Windows Media Player on his Bushmaster.

The issues is not Software player dependant unfortunately.

Tim
18-06-2012, 17:01
I always save an image as soon as windows is fresh so it is easy to go back should anything be 'over tweaked' in the registry etc.
Me too, the best bit of software I have ever purchased is Acronis True Image. Saved me countless hours, in fact countless days in time and makes you more inclined to experiment if you have no fear of getting it wrong - wonderful software and a complete reinstall of a fully working and configured Windows O/S takes a couple of minutes :) I cannot recommend Acronis enough (unless of course you enjoy spending hours and hours installing and re-installing Windows!).

MartinT
18-06-2012, 17:07
We use Drive Snapshot because it handles making images on the network and will run in both Windows environments and under DOS (very handy to quickly build a new blank machine by booting a DOS USB drive, running Drive Snapshot and restoring a Windows image from another drive).

http://www.drivesnapshot.de/en/

Tim
18-06-2012, 17:22
We use Drive Snapshot . . .
Not heard of that one Martin, but it sounds good. There are a few good ones out there now that I maybe should try as I have had Acronis now for countless years, but it still serves me well. I really think everyone who uses a computer should have some kind of imaging software. Simples . . . ;)

Welder
18-06-2012, 17:49
Hey Tim.

Yep, a few people have had problems with the WASAPI plugin and foobar. I suppose one disadvantage of free players is that third party plugins may not always work in every configuration.
Maybe give JRiver a try Brian. (?)

It’s not my preferred player and not just because it costs money.:D
I think the Linux setups I’ve tried out sound better but the prospect of financial savings and the chance to tinker with stuff has made me delusional in the past I’m assured by some who know me.;)

As I believe I’ve mentioned a number of times, best quality file based audio can take considerable effort and computer knowledge. The “file based audio is easy and convenient” is a lie.:doh:

Despite the above, once you have got it all sorted, it can sound fantastic.
Like anything else to do with audio, there is a learning curve, imo it’s well worth the climb.

I hope to have a Linux mpdpup/DeaDBeef guide written up in the not too distant future but I’m rather preoccupied with my active project atm.:scratch:

MartinT
18-06-2012, 17:50
Agreed, Tim. However, you don't need anything with Windows 7 - its built-in image backup is excellent. I've done many a bare metal restore by just booting the W7 DVD and pointing it to the image on the network or USB drive. Works for Server 2008 R2 also.

brian2957
18-06-2012, 17:57
I was thinking about going down the Jriver path ( no pun intended :)) in the very near future John.. However I believe that entails installation of Windows 7 and a Ram upgrade . I have been preoccupied in the last week with trying to get the Bushmaster to work in my system . Maybe after all this is done I will consider a media player upgrade . I look forward to another of your excellent write-ups on media players .
Brian.

Tim
18-06-2012, 18:05
The “file based audio is easy and convenient” is a lie

What are you talking about John :lol:

Tim
18-06-2012, 18:12
I was thinking about going down the Jriver . . . However I believe that entails installation of Windows 7 and a Ram upgrade
Not so Brian, it will run on the following;


JRiver Media Center 17 Ver. 17.0.147, for Windows 2000, XP, Vista, Windows 7, & Windows Home Server.
And my install on my system only uses 29MB when running. I may be wrong, but the free version (MEDIA JUKEBOX 14) is supposed to use less. I know Alex_UK uses this and swears by it, he used to use Foobar too.

http://www.jriver.com/mj/

I really rate JRiver MC17, but I know its not for everyone and of course its not free. However, if you trial it and don't buy it, JRiver should send you a $10.00 discount code later on to try and tempt you, at least they did with me :)

brian2957
18-06-2012, 18:23
I didn't know this Tim . Gary ( Gazjam ) uses it and it sounds excellent on his Windows 7 system. Thanks for the info. I'll have a look.
Brian

Tim
18-06-2012, 18:32
I didn't know this Tim . Gary ( Gazjam ) uses it and it sounds excellent on his Windows 7 system. Thanks for the info. I'll have a look.
Brian
For me it sounds better than Foobar and has a lot of great features too, but mostly I changed over because of its superior audio performance on my system, it seemed better audibly running on an SSD too. Can't quite put my finger on why, it just does seem sonically better on the SSD than Foobar was - odd I know, but then a lot of file based audio is trial and error. May differ for other folks, but for me it is a better player and I really didn't want to spend money buying it, but its really been worth the $39.98 I paid for it.

brian2957
18-06-2012, 18:36
I've spent a lot more than that for an upgrade in the past mate .:)
Brian.

wee tee cee
18-06-2012, 18:51
Just noticed this thread....My BM is doing exactly the same thing. I run a v link with co-ax and a dell lap top on win 7. I have tried all the inputs/swaped cables/ headphones..... stuttering audio with lots of crackles.
I just tried a cd player through the co-ax...Its exactly the same. This would not appear to be a computer problem.I will send mine back and see If Stan can get to the bottom of it.
Tony

Tim
18-06-2012, 18:54
Just noticed this thread....My BM is doing exactly the same thing. I run a v link with co-ax and a dell lap top on win 7. I have tried all the inputs/swaped cables/ headphones..... stuttering audio with lots of crackles.
I just tried a cd player through the co-ax...Its exactly the same. This would not appear to be a computer problem.I will send mine back and see If Stan can get to the bottom of it.
Tony
Have you tried it without the V-Link in the chain?

wee tee cee
18-06-2012, 19:01
yes ,the cd player outputs co-ax. The Dac is at fault. I have another three different dacs that are all fine.

Reid Malenfant
18-06-2012, 19:01
Have you tried it without the V-Link in the chain?
I reckon he must have, V-Link only has a USB input, not coaxial :)

Gazjam
18-06-2012, 19:09
Agreed, Tim. However, you don't need anything with Windows 7 - its built-in image backup is excellent. I've done many a bare metal restore by just booting the W7 DVD and pointing it to the image on the network or USB drive. Works for Server 2008 R2 also.

Thats what I do as well.

3 images..
. bare Win7 install.
. HTPC image (Jriver/XBMC/Mame..etc)
. Work Image (Adobe CS5, LIghtwave, Pro Engineer etc)

Works a treat, saves messing about. :)

Alex_UK
19-06-2012, 16:31
I know Alex_UK uses this and swears by it, he used to use Foobar too.

http://www.jriver.com/mj/


Yes, I do, I use it on an ancient IBM Thinkpad laptop as my main music PC, and it never (and I mean never) misses a beat going into a Hiface USB to SPDIF converter and then Coax in on my Caiman. The Thinkpad is a Pentium M 1.7GhZ with 512MB RAM, Windows XP SP3 - but I've also had it running on an even older Dell Inspiron with 256MB RAM and Windows 2000 with no problems at all.

Gazjam
19-06-2012, 19:30
No go with Brians laptop today folks.
Tried many things (and a few more) but to no avail.

Closed the book on that one, thanks for all the helpful suggestions guys.

brian2957
19-06-2012, 19:39
Yes thanks for all the help guys.:(
Brian.

Welder
19-06-2012, 19:50
Oh dear Brian.

Have you had success with any other Dacs?
If so which?

Is the problem confined to USB or does SPDIF work okay?

brian2957
19-06-2012, 20:12
Hi John , laptop worked fine with 2 Caimans , a Rega DAC and Ali Taits' valve DAC. We tried all sorts of adjustments to the laptop but nothing worked . As you know I'm no computer expert but Gary (Gazjam ) certainly knows his way around them and it was him who looked at it for me . Just gave up in the end . Pity , but that's how things go sometimes. We used a Fanmusic USB to SPDIF converter and a V-Link but neither worked.
Brian.

MartinT
19-06-2012, 20:15
Brian

Tim (Gigmeister) sends his apologies but he has been called away to a family emergency and cannot take a look at your laptop at the moment. He will make contact when he returns.

brian2957
19-06-2012, 20:42
Thanks Martin , nothing is more important than family , particularly when there is an emergency . I hope it's not too serious .
Brian.

Welder
19-06-2012, 21:01
It must be very frustrating Brian.
I know Gary is good with computers and if I lived nearby i would certainly help out but i doubt very much that I could do anything Gary hasn't.
I wondered if you and Gary had come to the conclusion that there was some incompatibility with the Dac rather than it being a computer based problem?

Alex_UK
19-06-2012, 21:08
This reminds me of the experience I had with the HRT Music Streamer - where no matter what I did I couldn't get it to work properly with my IBM - just incompatible for some reason, perhaps? :scratch:

brian2957
19-06-2012, 21:16
John , all I know is Gary checked the RAM useage during playback and it was very low. I'm afraid I can't say if there was an incompatability issue . I will certainly talk to Gary and get back to you . Thanks for the interest.
Brian.

Welder
19-06-2012, 21:21
I've got a sneaking suspicion that your HRT problem was a lack of adequate power from whatever USB hub arrangement the Thinkpad has Alex.

There seems to be some weird and wonderful USB power arrangements on a number of MOB I've shredded. :eyebrows:
An independently powered USB hub might show if this was the case providing the power arrangement still permitted the sending of "open gate" packets from the main puter to Dac.....not always the obvious implementation.

Welder
19-06-2012, 21:26
Tbh Brian I'm interested in this sort of stuff.
I must have tried out a dozen or so Dacs on various computer configurations now and got every one to work in the end so you can imagine my frustration at not being able to get my hands on your kit and have a go. :D

Alex_UK
19-06-2012, 21:27
I've got a sneaking suspicion that your HRT problem was a lack of adequate power from whatever USB hub arrangement the Thinkpad has Alex.

There seems to be some weird and wonderful USB power arrangements on a number of MOB I've shredded. :eyebrows:
An independently powered USB hub might show if this was the case providing the power arrangement still permitted the sending of "open gate" packets from the main puter to Dac.....not always the obvious implementation.

Don't want to go too far off topic, but I tried an externally powered hub and it made no difference. My sympathy to Brian though, 'cos I know how frustrating it was trying (and failing!) to resolve!

Gazjam
19-06-2012, 21:30
The odd thing was that the laptop played a 24/96 file no problem but couldn't do 16/44 without breaking up...
The helpfull comments here got me thinking about limited system resources being the problem...
But no, even 24/96 didn't max the cpu or ram.

Pagefile activity wasn't excessive either.
The laptop played fine with 3 other dacs so I think its a compatibility problem.

Welder
19-06-2012, 21:38
Fancy going over again Gary and installing Ubuntu and DeaDBeef in a dual boot config and giving that a whirl? :eyebrows::D

brian2957
19-06-2012, 21:38
Tbh Brian I'm interested in this sort of stuff.
I must have tried out a dozen or so Dacs on various computer configurations now and got every one to work in the end so you can imagine my frustration at not being able to get my hands on your kit and have a go. :D

Aye John , I've read your posts and I know you don't give up easily . But in all honesty I think Gary tried everything humanly possible here . We've been at this for hours over a week or so. Bliddy thing just wouldn't cooperate . Sometimes you've just got to call it a day . The wife even told me she was missing me :lol:
Brian.

Gazjam
19-06-2012, 21:46
Fancy going over again Gary and installing Ubuntu and DeaDBeef in a dual boot config and giving that a whirl? :eyebrows::D

Linux ??
Frankly I'd rather be sellotaped to Noel Edmonds without the aid of a beard guard...

:)

Welder
19-06-2012, 21:51
Ah, well that's that idea fecked then. :D

Gazjam
20-06-2012, 08:42
Cheers anyway fella,

:-)

James_Woods
20-06-2012, 13:08
I don't know, if the problem is already solved. But my suggestion is to turn off WiFi and AntiVirus Software and try it again.

Dell has had several Problems in the past with the Interrupts of WiFi and USB Soundcards. I used to own a Dell Vostro (1st Generation) and had these Problems with Windows XP and Vista. I was able to minimize the Dropouts by disabling WiFi.

Gazjam
20-06-2012, 13:33
Cheers Tobi but we tried everything mate, that too.

Don't want to speak for Brian but we spoke about the benefits of getting a newer computer for his music server.

Think that's the route he's looking at going down.

brian2957
20-06-2012, 21:34
I initially bought this cheap laptop to see what all the fuss was about. Now that I have sampled what file based audio is capable of I want more . TBH I believe that the only way to take full advantage of this will be to invest in a dedicated music computer / server .
Brian.

James_Woods
20-06-2012, 22:10
Cheers :)

Werner Berghofer
21-06-2012, 04:46
Brian,


I believe that the only way to take full advantage of this will be to invest in a dedicated music computer / server

I’m speaking from the Apple side of the fence: When using headphones to compare the playback quality very critically, I don’t detect any differences between a seven years old Mac Mini G4 with 1 GB of RAM, a MacBook Pro (late 2010) with 4 GB of RAM and an iMac (mid 2011) with 8 GB of RAM. The last two are used for everyday purposes, while the Mac Mini acts as dedicated music and fax server. Maybe a well-preserved, second hand Mac Mini is all you need. It has a nice, small footprint, a minimalistic, unobtrusive appearance and operates nearly silently. Further advantages would be that no special drivers are required to obtain bit perfect playback via USB or optical S/PDIF, and wireless audio streaming to a remote Airport Express feeding its signal to a DAC easily can be added as a later expansion stage.

I’m not a Windows expert, but I think at least 1 GB of RAM need to be installed in a computer running Windows XP.

Werner.

sq225917
21-06-2012, 09:02
I ran XP on my old Advent with 512mb, never had any issues running it as a server, striped down and with no services starting automatically that were not absolutely required. That said, my macbook is perfect has never missed a beat in three years and will likely last for many, many years yet.

Gazjam
21-06-2012, 09:47
Theres guys running Win7 on a lot less...

http://www.sevenforums.com/performance-maintenance/11624-oldest-dinosaur-running-win7.html
mention of 486's and K6-2's on here!

Run windows 7 myself on SLIGHTLY better hardware... :)

MartinT
21-06-2012, 13:40
I'm running W7 Pro on an Atom 1.6GHz single-core processor on a netbook as a bedroom machine. It's RAM it needs, not processor.

Gazjam
21-06-2012, 13:54
512mb is possible on a basic Win7 machine, not sure about using it as a media centre though. :)

Ram is going through a cheap phase just now, no reason not to have at least 8gb in a new machine.

MartinT
21-06-2012, 14:36
The minimum hardware spec for W7 32-bit is 1GB. It's complete madness to go under their spec!

Even my step-daughter's netbook with W7 Starter experienced a sizeable performance improvement when I upgraded it from 1GB to 2GB. I just don't get these attempts to get laptops working with tiny amounts of RAM when memory is so cheap!

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/products/system-requirements

SteelZ
21-06-2012, 16:33
He could try installing AISO4All..

asio4all (http://www.asio4all.com/)
The random dropouts could be caused by the buffer not being high enough.. USB latency is extremely high.

Foobar can be set to use the ASIO4All Drivers for output to the BM.
(After downloading a ASIO component for foobar)

http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_asio

AISO4All allows the buffer size to be increased.
So all he has to do is put a really high buffering sample
and maybe play with the latency compensation options? :)

I hope it works!

Gazjam
21-06-2012, 17:26
He could try installing AISO4All..

asio4all (http://www.asio4all.com/)
The random dropouts could be caused by the buffer not being high enough.. USB latency is extremely high.

Foobar can be set to use the ASIO4All Drivers for output to the BM.
(After downloading a ASIO component for foobar)

http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_out_asio

AISO4All allows the buffer size to be increased.
So all he has to do is put a really high buffering sample
and maybe play with the latency compensation options? :)

I hope it works!


Hi Ashley,
thanks for the suggestion.

we tried that too, I even pushed the buffer settings all the way up to max - wouldn't think to run Foobar this way but had to try it.

The crackling and breakup occurred with asio and without it, using standard KMixer.
It didn't work in Windows Media Player either.