192 kHz playing in slow motion off my Squeezebox

[magiccarpetride]

Beresford Bushmaster DAC is nominally capable of playing 192 kHz sampling rate. However, when I play the 192 kHz tracks from my Squeezebox Touch, they come out in slow motion (i.e. like playing a 45 rpm single at the 33.3 rpm speed). Anyone has any ideas why this is happening?

[StanleyB]

You cannot be serious.

[magiccarpetride]

You cannot be serious.

Why would I not be serious?

[twelvebears]

You cannot be serious.

I think we can assume he's not making it up.

Have you tried the analogue or headphone output to see if the 'slow down' is the SB?

[StanleyB]

Can you possibly imagine the kind of processing power required to slow down a digital track and still keep it in step?

[magiccarpetride]

I think we can assume he's not making it up.

Have you tried the analogue or headphone output to see if the 'slow down' is the SB?

Here is another thread, in a different community, where similar problems (although not Bushmaster related) have been reported:

http://www.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=109767

Just so that you don't conjecture that I'm trolling this forum...

Haven't tried other outputs, will do it tonight.

[magiccarpetride]

Can you possibly imagine the kind of processing power required to slow down a digital track and still keep it in step?

I certainly can't, not even possibly, but that doesn't automatically procure a proof that it's not happening. I'm hearing it with my own ears, and others seem to be having similar experiences (although not with your DAC):

http://www.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=109767

[Stratmangler]

Have you not been buggering about as usual with software "fixes" for your Touch/server?

[StanleyB]

Have you not been buggering about as usual with software "fixes" for your Touch/server?
That's what I think myself. There is no way a DAC can reduce the sampling speed without a powerful set of software or hardware coding.
Anyhow, I appreciate that you have a problem and I don't want you to be unhappy with your purchase. So send it to me and I shall issue you with a refund. I can then send the DAC to someone else with a SBT and get them to try it out to see if they can get the same problem to appear with the returned DAC.

[Beechwoods]

The DAC would need storage of some kind to buffer the incoming signal. No way this is a DAC issue, must be source, and the same goes for the person describing a similar issue playing back off a Mac. I've had similar with certain older software players with higher res. stuff.

[StanleyB]

The DAC would need storage of some kind to buffer the incoming signal. No way this is a DAC issue,
But I don't want a unhappy customer even if it was the nextdoor's neighbour space machine causing the problem :). So I am quite happy to take back the DAC from him.

[Beechwoods]

Good on you Stan :)

[Bazil]

But I don't want a unhappy customer even if it was the nextdoor's neighbour space machine causing the problem :). So I am quite happy to take back the DAC from him.

As its half speed I'll have it for half price :D

[magiccarpetride]

Have you not been buggering about as usual with software "fixes" for your Touch/server?

I think you've nailed it. Nothing to do with the DAC (sorry about the confusion).

[magiccarpetride]

But I don't want a unhappy customer even if it was the nextdoor's neighbour space machine causing the problem :). So I am quite happy to take back the DAC from him.

You cannot be serious.

I have thousands of songs in my library, out of which only a handful of 192 kHz. So what if I can't play a few of those? Why would I return the DAC? I still have tons of great tracks to enjoy.

[StanleyB]

As its half speed I'll have it for half price :D
Done :). I shall let you know once I have got it back.

[daytona600]

buy a record player you can always change the speed or pitch

[magiccarpetride]

buy a record player you can always change the speed or pitch

I'm not into DJ-ing.

[StanleyB]

To quote from an email I received in the last few minutes:



I read some reviews of the new DAC complaining about rolled highs. This is a common trick in some sources to mitigate the harshness of bad recordings, but it defnitively worsen good recordings and I would prefer a more accurate reproduction even if showing source software defects. One could think that the passive output filter could have a quite slow decay so introducing some attenuation in the audio band. Can you comment about this? Which is the actual frequency response of the new DAC?

These questions are only to understand if the new DAC could be interesting for me. They are absolutely not to be intended as criticism. I always found your products exceptional value and nice sounding.

That is the sort of stuff I now have to answer when I have no idea what the facts behind the complaint on AoS is. But it is clear that in next to no time the blame leveled against the Bushmaster is being taken serious by many people out there. Only a proper investigation can resolve this and that would require a return of the DAC I think. If it is indded possible for the Bushmaster to slow down the music I can see the potential commercial value of that alone.

[leo]

Very unlikely to be the dac causing this weird effect , Ive never known any dac to be able to slow music down

[StanleyB]

Very unlikely to be the dac causing this weird effect , Ive never known any dac to be able to slow music down
Which makes it an extremely valuable item to get back to my lab. I can see the $$$ already if it is true and I can isolate the technical method that is required to activate this new feature :eyebrows:.

[leo]

Which makes it an extremely valuable item to get back to my lab. I can see the $$$ already if it is true and I can isolate the technical method that is required to activate this new feature :eyebrows:.

:lol:

[synsei]

This may be relevant or it may not, but when I am running 96k files and my anti-virus software kicks in and does it's scheduled scan I have problems with speed stability. It sounds for all the world like a record warp :eyebrows:

[slate]

Had a mp3 track that sounded like chipmunks on some devices, worked fine on others

[magiccarpetride]

Very unlikely to be the dac causing this weird effect , Ive never known any dac to be able to slow music down

Not unlikely, impossible. My issue has been tracked down to the Squeezebox Touch digital transport. It only became apparent once I plugged the Bushmaster in, as that was the first time I've ever attempted to play 192 kHz files.

It was just a weird coincidence, but once again, I repeat -- nothing to do with the DAC. I hope this clarifies it once and for all.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Why don't you reset your SBT to factory spec Alex ...
If you have been after a smoother sound and have been fecking with it maybe you have fecked it!
Might fix the "muffled highs" too ... Would make sense if no one else is experiencing these issues!

[synsei]

This may be relevant or it may not, but when I am running 96k files and my anti-virus software kicks in and does it's scheduled scan I have problems with speed stability. It sounds for all the world like a record warp :eyebrows:

Just to clarify, I am certain this is something to do with my 'puter and not the Caiman.

[magiccarpetride]

Why don't you reset your SBT to factory spec Alex ...
If you have been after a smoother sound and have been fecking with it maybe you have fecked it!
Might fix the "muffled highs" too ... Would make sense if no one else is experiencing these issues!

I'll try my PS3 first before fecking with my fecking.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

With the greatest respect alex I don't know why you don't try these things before posting on a forum for help?

[Beechwoods]

Yep. I'm glad I'm not the designer of the product being mooted as having a problem that quickly turns about to be nothing of the sort.

[magiccarpetride]

With the greatest respect alex I don't know why you don't try these things before posting on a forum for help?

I agree. Silly me. Next time I'll first purchase a bigger house, rebuild my listening room, spend a few months treating it, and only if that does not help with the muffled highs, will I think of mentioning that in the forum.

[magiccarpetride]

Yep. I'm glad I'm not the designer of the product being mooted as having a problem that quickly turns about to be nothing of the sort.

That's why you are the Administrator.

[StanleyB]

Personally I think it is better to contact the supplier first instead. I still think that the Bushmaster might be a step too far for you technology wise.

[magiccarpetride]

Personally I think it is better to contact the supplier first instead. I still think that the Bushmaster might be a step too far for you technology wise.

I agree. I apologize for stirring the pot before getting all the info sorted out first, but hey, I'm just a clueless consumer.

I did some more research and it turns out that SBT can indeed serve 192 kHz material, but only if EDO plugin is installed (which incidentally I have installed), and then ONLY via the USB. So you're right, I'm left behind technology-wise with a cheap little SBT box. One day I'll upgrade. Until then, it's back to the good old 24/96!

Not too shabby either.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I agree. Silly me. Next time I'll first purchase a bigger house, rebuild my listening room, spend a few months treating it, and only if that does not help with the muffled highs, will I think of mentioning that in the forum.

I meant, I don't know why you didn't try your ps3 before posting! ...?

[magiccarpetride]

I meant, I don't know why you didn't try your ps3 before posting! ...?

PS3 can't play 192 kHz material.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Fair enough, what about the "muffled highs" though

[StanleyB]

Well there are a couple of things we have learned at least. The Bushmaster can expose shortcomings and bottle necks in your system. Its true 192KHz ability is also exposing the Squeeze Box Touch as a potential source of problems with high frequency files.

But away from the glare of the forum someone has sent me a few PMs to say that had problems with the BM when using a USB to SPDIF converter. He is running XP (for those of you not old enough to remember XP, look it up on WIKI). Everything works fine in W7. So the BM also seem to expose USB audio failings in XP. Mind you, XP would very likely have been installed on a slower processor PC, with maybe less RAM as well. So upgrading a XP machine to W7 might not solve the problem. A more up to date PC would involve extra cost.
Kind of underlines my advise against USB converters. But I hadn't expected the BM to suddenly find itself in the middle of it. Especially since it has no USB port.

I have often questioned the need for 192Khz, and it seems that the BM is exposing failings within the audio chain when 192KHz material is finally given a try in that chain.
Unfortunately however it is the BM that is initially blamed as the source of the problem, especially if everything worked fine beforehand with a different DAC running at no more than 96KHz.
This makes me wonder why I haven't read about such issues before. Is it because few people have actually been able to play 192KHz files? I know of a few DACs that have been claiming 192KHz capability but on closer inspection of their specification it turns out that they are using upsampling of lower frequency files to get to 192KHz playback. So the question is as to whether they can be called true 192KHz playback. I would be inclined to view such a process as a virtual 192KHz playback since the original file was never 192KHz in the first place. I have no idea how a virtual 192KHz audio playback that has been created though upsampling sounds, but it would appear that this could now become the next subject of contention. The BM is likely to be the first DAC to have raised that issue so graphically.

So several new potential flaws in the audio chain are under scrutiny and are being exposed as possible upgrade areas for many of us. That's a lot to ask from a humble wallet. So before considering a BM I would suggest that you try to stick to not more than 96KHz files for the time being until your wallet can risk a stress test. Before you dismiss my point, just look in the recent items put up for sale and other items marked as wanted. Some of them have a direct link to the BM, whilst others are suspiciously looking like they are. Especially when put up by people who haven't been around here since last year. When you have to make those kind of provisions in order to cater for the BM it is a worrying thought.

Through the presence of fellow members who make or sell high performance interconnects, their availability in the UK and Europe has given many AoS members the chance to upgrade at a relatively modest price. So when the BM was tried with those higher spec interconnects everything seemed fine. But not everyone has been so lucky, and many out there are still using interconnects that were designed and built when high resolution audio files didn't have to keep up with DAC technology. The BM appears to have also exposed the need for an upgrade in the interconnect department in some cases.

It wasn't my intention to add to anyone's spending over and above just the acquisition of the BM. But this oversight is far too important to overlook. So potential buyers of the BM should seriously take into consideration the likelihood of unexpected financial outlay its addition might do to you, and refrain from buying one on impulse unless you can cope with the aftermath if you intend to embark on high-end listening in a very short space of time. I would even suggest that consideration should be given to interconnects made or supplied by fellow members on AoS since they are a known source and their technology has been tried and tested, and in many cases even discussed at length on the forum. It is far cheaper than buying from an unknown source as well.

[LittleTone]

Hi Stan,
Expecting my BM any day now.

What's your take on the toslink/coax argument.

I shall be feeding the DAC from a Logitech Touch. Should I use a HQ Toslink (Chord Optichord) or a Mark Grant G2000HD Coax for best results ?
I will of course try them both and settle on which sounds best; but I just wondered, as the designer if there were technical/tangible benefits for using either connection.
Regards
Tony

[sq225917]

Stan what would you recommend for listeners who do want to try 192khz, what sources did you test the BM with that you know are solid with 192khz?

[StanleyB]

I did some tests with my own TOSLINK and coax leads, and double checked them with some leads that Mark Grant specially made for me for the Bushmaster. I am inclined to think that it could be my DVD player with both types of outputs that gave me a better 3D stereo image with coax. I am trying to find another piece of kit that has both optical and coax so that I can do these 3D tests again.
But Mark did make the test leads especially for me and they were not the standard 1meter length. I think they were about 90cm even I remember correctly. I lent them to a mate of mine and shall ask him to bring them back so that I can check out what the specs are. But if you give Mark Grant a call I am sure he can look up the info and possibly make up the same set of leads for you. They appeared better sounding with the BM than his standard length leads. The connector were also different, so this could be a factor as well.

As for what I use: I got a 192KHz PCMCIA optical card from Creative, but which doesn't register anywhere on the net. I use that with W7 64X. I tried it on a slower laptop running at 86X but it maxed out at 96KHz.
I also got a prototype DVD that was made for a mate of mine who is a share holder and MD of the company that makes the Technika stuff for Tesco etc. It can handle 192KHz etc through a slot for CF etc. kind of cards. I don't think that machine was put into production though.
I also got a no brand media player sample from the Far East that runs Linux and handles up to 192KHz. It can't play back FLAC though.

As for what I recommend for 192KHz playback. I haven't got a clue at this stage. I am waiting to read the feedback from others who are currently trying out various types of sources so that all of us can get an idea of the appropriate choices.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Majik dsi feeds 192 to it ... Sounds brilliant too!

[LittleTone]

Stan,
Thank you for the response. I look forward to hearing the BM in action and will report my findings on the review thread in due course.

Regards
Tony

[barry-potter]

But away from the glare of the forum someone has sent me a few PMs to say that had problems with the BM when using a USB to SPDIF converter. He is running XP (for those of you not old enough to remember XP, look it up on WIKI). Everything works fine in W7. So the BM also seem to expose USB audio failings in XP. Mind you, XP would very likely have been installed on a slower processor PC, with maybe less RAM as well. So upgrading a XP machine to W7 might not solve the problem. A more up to date PC would involve extra cost.
Kind of underlines my advise against USB converters. But I hadn't expected the BM to suddenly find itself in the middle of it. Especially since it has no USB port.



i have just downloaded my first 192 file and it played fine through bushy - i am running xp on a fairly low spec machine. i doubt i will ever have the need for 192 files though as everything is red book cd transferred to flac. i could upsample i suppose but i don't think i can be bothered getting into that game.

[StanleyB]

Hi Jonny, are you running anti virus etc as well and if so which one? That's for others to have a reference point if they are having problems with USB.

[barry-potter]

no anti virus software and also service pack 2. it's just a bare bones machine dedicated to playing music, nothing else.

[Stratmangler]

i have just downloaded my first 192 file and it played fine through bushy - i am running xp on a fairly low spec machine. i doubt i will ever have the need for 192 files though as everything is red book cd transferred to flac. i could upsample i suppose but i don't think i can be bothered getting into that game.

I've never had an issue playing 24/192 files on computers either - whether or not your SPDIF is putting out 24/192 is another issue altogether.

Unless you've gone out of your way to stop it there's a high probability that your computer is downsampling the file before it hits the DAC.

[barry-potter]

er don't know about that - my soundcard shows an output of 192 and that is what it reads on the bottom of foobar as well so i just presumed that is what it is

[Stratmangler]

er don't know about that - my soundcard shows an output of 192 and that is what it reads on the bottom of foobar as well so i just presumed that is what it is

It was the soundcard I was thinking of - Foobar will quite happily output 24/192.
Have you used any Asio drivers?
They bypass the windows sound drivers.

[barry-potter]

It was the soundcard I was thinking of - Foobar will quite happily output 24/192.
Have you used any Asio drivers?
They bypass the windows sound drivers.

yes i have and yes they do

[MartinT]

I have played a few 24/192 files from my SB Touch (with Enhanced Digital Output add-in) to the Bushmaster with no problems whatsoever. I am using the co-ax out from SB into input 3 of the BM. The SB confirms in More Info that it is receiving a 24/192 file. Whether there is transcoding going on I don't know, which is why I proposed the second use of the BM's LEDs to confirm input coding.

All the 24/192 files sound suberb.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

You could see if the SB is outputting 24/192 by plugging in a dac that can't handle it
I know the majik outputs 24/192 as the BM is one of the only dacs that has output music when I play a 24/192 music... With the rest of the dacs I have tried I either get nothing, or if my memory serves with one or two I have just had noise come out

[DSJR]

You know, on other forums, threads like this would either have been closed or possibly deleted by now....

[Beechwoods]

Why?

[The Grand Wazoo]

Alex, do think you could make the slow DAC get back up to speed if you festooned it with a big old heap of crystals?

[roob]

Alex, do think you could make the slow DAC get back up to speed if you festooned it with a big old heap of crystals?

Snigger :mental:

[TopBalcony]

This issue has been discussed and resolved in the Squeezebox forum. MCR should know this as he trolls there frequently with his idiot mate (both of whom were banned for a while)

[magiccarpetride]

Alex, do think you could make the slow DAC get back up to speed if you festooned it with a big old heap of crystals?

Actually, it's the exact opposite. After removing the crystals, things went back to normal. I guess those pesky crystals were mellowing the player...

[DSJR]

Why?

Because, to me, it looks like the OP was "blaming" the Bushmaster when it appears it's his "tweaking" of the source he was using that did it..

[magiccarpetride]

Fair enough, what about the "muffled highs" though

PS3 is a spectacularly inferior transport compared to SBT. I've confirmed this (yet again) when I played it side-by-side to SBT yesterday. PS3 delivers pale, lifeless rendition, and yes, the highs from PS3 seem even more receded and rolled off than on SBT. So it definitely wasn't SBT to blame for the rolled off highs.

[magiccarpetride]

Because, to me, it looks like the OP was "blaming" the Bushmaster when it appears it's his "tweaking" of the source he was using that did it..

I've already apologized for that and have rectified the issue. The wrong playback speed has absolutely nothing to do with the DAC.

[Beechwoods]

Because, to me, it looks like the OP was "blaming" the Bushmaster when it appears it's his "tweaking" of the source he was using that did it..

I think it's clear from the way the thread's progressed that the issue isn't with the Bushmaster. Stan has demonstrated his willingness to help a customer out no matter what the problem, and I think it's probably worked out OK for him. I'd be uncomfortable starting to delete threads raising issues about products made by Trade Members.

One way or another the facts always out in the end!

[jandl100]

:doh:
So now there is an AOS thread with a title that states the Bushmaster DAC can't play 192KHz digital properly.
And to find that this is not so, you have to delve quite deeply into the thread.

Sweet Jeezus - you couldn't make this up! :rolleyes:

[Beechwoods]

There's also more than 2 threads waxing lyrical about the Bushmaster's capabilities. One of these is over 200 posts long. Are there any other threads you'd like us to delete while we're at it?

[jandl100]

"Are you serious?" :lol:

It's not subjective opinion, it's blatant misinformation down purely to the incompetence of the OP!

Think about it! .. and have a chat about it with t'other mods in the "back room" :thumbsup:

[Beechwoods]

I am serious. If we start deleting threads because the OP doesn't get it, and their post appears to cast aspersions on a particular product we end up on a very slippery slope in the future with people requesting deletions because the contents of posts aren't favourable, or don't seem to cast their favourite product in the best light.

I've asked the rest of the team's view - if they disagree it'll be moderated accordingly.

In the meantime, let's not keep bringing this thread up the 'recent posts' list. Let it die like it deserves. If you have any further points, let's discuss them in Critics Corner? Happy for you to start a new thread over there on the whys and wherefore's of moderating this kind of a situation.

Thread closed since it's served it purpose.