View Full Version : Which record clamp / weight for SP10?
Hi Guys,
I am weighing up (pardon the pun :lol:) a record weight / puck for my Technics SP10 MKII.
I was curious what you guys were using, or would recommend for my application, and why?
Obviously the SP10 does not suffer from a lack of torque, but I was curious what was the ideal material, weight, and dimensions.
I look forward to your feedback.
cheers
Pete.
StanleyB
13-06-2012, 14:29
Hi Pete, I generally stay away from discussions on weights since my own research goes against many of the claims made by some of them.
Let me explain:
If you put a heavy weight in the center of a record, the vinyl will sink into the mat by a small amount in that area. At the same time the outer edge of the vinyl will bow upwards. Just conduct an experiment with a weight placed on a round piece of paper that you have first placed on say a piece of soft foam. Use soft foam just so that you can exaggerate the effect of the outer edge bending upwards.
What that means is that at the outer edge of the tracks the stylus is not tracking at 90 degrees. It could be tracking at maybe 85 or 95 degrees, depending on if it is the inside or outside edge of the track. This difference in tracking angle will produce a difference in sound, which is used by weight sellers to describe the benefits of their weight. i..e. better bass, etc. Of course, that tracking error will make the playback sound different, whilst taking the grooves of your vinyl apart. The heavier the weight, the worst the displacement angle is.
A clamp on the other hand prevents the vinyl from slipping under the force of the stylus and torque of the turntable motor. It also does not cause the edges of the vinyl to bend upwards, which in turn means a longer lifespan for your nice records.
I would agree that heavy weights are not a good idea, but I would not agree with the reasons given above. Although a very heavy weight may cause uneven deflection in the record, this assumes a soft felt, or foam, mat is used; many mats are too rigid to allow deflection of this type ans even if it did, it is unlikely that it would be more than a degree or so. What heavy weights do is increase the load on the bearing and subsequently increase bearing noise; they also couple this noise to the record. Torque is not an issue as the mass is centred close to the axis of rotation - even quite a substantial weight will have a minimal impact on rotational inertia. Heavy weights also increase coupling between the record and mat - beyond a certain point this seems to be a negative.
A record clamp is unlikely to increase bearing noise (assuming it is not very heavy), but it can still couple what noise there is to the record. In addition, it may still over-damp the record, depending on how much pressure it applies to the record.
I've read a number of times that clamps (and weights) stop record slippage, but in many years of experimentation I have never seen any evidence that this problem exists. A clamp, or weight, does 'anchor' the record, but the record won't slip anyway, whatever mat you use.
StanleyB
13-06-2012, 16:16
I would agree that heavy weights are not a good idea, but I would not agree with the reasons given above. Although a very heavy weight may cause uneven deflection in the record, this assumes a soft felt, or foam, mat is used; many mats are too rigid to allow deflection of this type ans even if it did, it is unlikely that it would be more than a degree or so.
A 1 degree offset at such microscopic level is sufficiently large enough to affect the sound. To demonstrate that play a record with a cartridge correctly aligned in the vertical plane, and then realign it with a 1 degree offset before playing it again.
Haselsh1
13-06-2012, 16:22
My own findings using a Project RPM-4 turntable with its original record clamp is that the clamp is better than my heavy aluminium record puck. The clamp gives a much sharper, more focussed presentation over the puck and is definitely my preference.
I must also add that I use a cork mat in preference to a felt mat as the difference is as obvious as the clamp/puck comparison.
Most reflex clamps (the kind you press down and tighten a nut) actually apply quite a light pressure; but this varies depending on how firmly the user presses down when fitting it). The kind that are supplied by some manufacturers, that actually screw to a threaded spindle, can apply considerable force; however, these invariably sound better when done up quite lightly.
sq225917
13-06-2012, 17:25
It doesn't make any difference if a cartridge is microscopic or made at 10,000 the scale. The displacement due to an angular offset would be identical relative to the stylus size. Any audible error is nothing to do with 'scale' of a stylus, more the accuracy required for the whole system.
pure sound
13-06-2012, 18:04
Hi Pete, I generally stay away from discussions on weights since my own research goes against many of the claims made by some of them.
Let me explain:
If you put a heavy weight in the center of a record, the vinyl will sink into the mat by a small amount in that area. At the same time the outer edge of the vinyl will bow upwards. Just conduct an experiment with a weight placed on a round piece of paper that you have first placed on say a piece of soft foam. Use soft foam just so that you can exaggerate the effect of the outer edge bending upwards.
What that means is that at the outer edge of the tracks the stylus is not tracking at 90 degrees. It could be tracking at maybe 85 or 95 degrees, depending on if it is the inside or outside edge of the track. This difference in tracking angle will produce a difference in sound, which is used by weight sellers to describe the benefits of their weight. i..e. better bass, etc. Of course, that tracking error will make the playback sound different, whilst taking the grooves of your vinyl apart. The heavier the weight, the worst the displacement angle is.
Hmm, it depends on the profile of the mat and the depth of the label rebate.
StanleyB
13-06-2012, 19:00
Hmm, it depends on the profile of the mat and the depth of the label rebate.
Of course, but how many turntable users are switched on enough to make those judgements? Expert tweakers are more than likely to be able to make an appropriate decision based on several factors. But many a novice just sees a weight over the turntable spindle either on a forum or such like and assumes it's a straight forward case of just getting a weight. There in lies the danger that is rarely discussed.
chris@panteg
13-06-2012, 19:24
Hi Guys,
I am weighing up (pardon the pun :lol:) a record weight / puck for my Technics SP10 MKII.
I was curious what you guys were using, or would recommend for my application, and why?
Obviously the SP10 does not suffer from a lack of torque, but I was curious what was the ideal material, weight, and dimensions.
I look forward to your feedback.
cheers
Pete.
I don't have an SP10 But I don't use one on my 1210 , why do you feel you may need a weight ?
bogle111
13-06-2012, 20:18
In addition, it may still over-damp the record
When the masters are made the shellac is as close to the platter surface as possible. Over a considerable period of trials, I fail to see that you can over-damp a record on a platter. The best method is to "attach" the record to the mat accurately and keep the record as level as possible, IMO.
As avatar, I use this on my SP10 as well. If you feel the need to use anything on an original SP10 mat, then a clamp used properly can also reduce the warp effect (if they exist on that record) of throwing the stylus up and down.
Cutting a record master and the subsequent playing of the final product are very different things.
The problem with close coupling the record to the mat is that, in my experience, no mat attenuated all frequencies equally. Overly coupling the record to the mat accentuates the sonic impact (signature) of the mat upon the music.
sq225917
13-06-2012, 21:19
Surely lacquers have to be completely flat to the platter for the cutting to work, if they weren't then the depth of the cut would be all over the place as the height of the cutting head is fixed during the cutting process. So lacquers are flat, vacuumed down, made with no label, no centre bulge and there's no recess in the platter either.
A record is cut from above, there's no mechanism for reflection of vibration back up from the platter to cause error in how the cut is made, it's vacuumed down so there's next to no feedback as there's no possible height variance. Add to that the fact that the cutting head is hot and it's doubly true because the 'hot lacquer' that has just passed under the cutting tip simply can't feedback vibrations into the head. Least of all let's not forget that a cutting head is driven by something akin to loudspeaker coils, the forces they apply vs any 'feedback' is way out there compared to what exists during playback
Compare that with a free floating tonearm, where vibrations in the record feedback directly into what the cart reads from the record and it's quite different. Simply put, a cutting head really shouldn't be affected by reflections from the lacquer under the tip, whereas a cartridge is designed exactly to be most sensitive to that. So damping/clamping etc is likely to have a pronounced effect on record playback.
I'm not saying that for playing a record that any one solution sounds better than the other, just accepting that they do sound different, and for different reasons than might exist during cutting.
My preferred choice is actually the antithesis of tightly coupled vacuum hold down as employed during cutting.
The Oyaide weight;1 because it looks really cool and actually works, worthy mention to the Michell clamp, which works well too ( which isn't a weight).:)
bogle111
13-06-2012, 21:47
So lacquers are flat, vacuumed down
This my preferred method, but only with DDs, but not with belters and very limited trial with idler.
WOStantonCS100
13-06-2012, 22:03
I use a TTWeights 454 gram record weight on all my non-suspended Techies (sans the all-in-one linear trackers). For now, I do use a thin felt mat in between the stock heavy platter mat and the record; otherwise, the character of the stock mat really starts to come through. I doubt either the SP10 bearing, Mike New bearing or the stock 1200 bearing care about the extra weight. Techie bearings (by a study of the specs of various tables with the same bearing but different weight platters) won't care much if several hundred grams are added on top, neither will the motor. Though I do like the difference in sound the weight makes, I originally got it for flattening out topside dished LP's. Like a clamp, it does an excellent job of it and it couldn't possibly be any simpler to use.
Overly coupling the record to the mat accentuates the sonic impact (signature) of the mat upon the music.
Yup - which, for me, is not a bad thing if the mat is particularly good at its job! ;)
I've yet to hear a better impedance match with vinyl itself than the Funk Achromat, which is why I prefer the close-coupling method, and also why firmly bonding the mat to the (Funk) platter, sounds significantly better than simply allowing it to 'float'.
Consider this, too: how many manufacturers make aftermarket T/T platters and mats that have been designed to work together? Think about the possible benefits...... In my opinion, if the sonic signature of the Achromat synergises well with that of your turntable (and platter), then the subsequent results are difficult to beat :)
As for T/T weights, I'm sticking with the medium-mass route, and the superb (value for money) Bruil!
Marco.
Hi Guys,
I am weighing up (pardon the pun :lol:) a record weight / puck for my Technics SP10 MKII.
I was curious what you guys were using, or would recommend for my application, and why?
Obviously the SP10 does not suffer from a lack of torque, but I was curious what was the ideal material, weight, and dimensions.
I look forward to your feedback.
cheers
Pete.
What mat are you using as it would be silly recommending anything without knowing that first?
I don't have an SP10 But I don't use one on my 1210 , why do you feel you may need a weight ?
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the interesting comments.
Chris, I don't feel that I need a weight, it's just that I try to keep an open mind about these things, and consider for the small outlay it could be worth a try.
Cheers
Pete
What mat are you using as it would be silly recommending anything without knowing that first?
Currently using the original SP10 rubber mat.
Cheers
Pete
If you put a heavy weight in the center of a record, the vinyl will sink into the mat by a small amount in that area. At the same time the outer edge of the vinyl will bow upwards. Just conduct an experiment with a weight placed on a round piece of paper that you have first placed on say a piece of soft foam. Use soft foam just so that you can exaggerate the effect of the outer edge bending upwards. The heavier the weight, the worst the displacement angle is.
Hi Stanley,
Would having a weight too heavy and too small overemphasize the sinking in the middle of the LP? Also if the TT mat provided the correct support under the weight, would that eliminate the sinking in the middle? I guess I'm thinking it could only sink if there was no or very little direct support under the LP. Maybe the choice of mat needs to be the first consideration. I'm not sure if the SP10 mat would be suitable to adequately utilize a weight?
Cheers
Pete
Well, except I would consider the weight that you use as relatively light weight in the greater scheme of things.
In terms of the impedance match the achromat offers, the achromat is a quite different density to a record and the adhesive used to bond the mat provides another impedance mismatch. I'm not convinced that increasing the effective mass of the record is a good thing YMMV.
Well, it certainly seems to sound very good on my T/T, Mark (and on many others, too), which is all that matters :)
Also, like I said, the Achromat sounds best when firmly bonded to the platter, with the supplied adhesive pads, and also with some Vaseline applied. Others and I have clearly heard the improvement this gives, over simply allowing the mat to 'float'.
Therefore, if your theory was right that tight-coupling was universally bad, surely by coupling the mat more firmly to the platter (as described above) would've resulted in sonic degradation? It clearly didn't, and in fact produced the opposite effect!
That's the trouble with theories, mate: they're ok up to a point, simply because one cannot take into consideration all the variables... ;)
Agreed, regarding the weight. Personally, I dislike the sonic effect of high-mass record weights, certainly on the Techy, but much of what's heard will, as usual, be system dependent.
Peter,
I'd thoroughly recommend the Bruil, for trying on your SP10. It's heavy enough, just to do the job that's needed. Here's a pic of the Bruil, in situ, on my T/T:
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9169/techyk.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/525/techyk.jpg/)
And one on an SP10:
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/3210/bruilweightonsp10.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/bruilweightonsp10.jpg/)
More information on the Bruil, here: http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html
Marco.
Canetoad
14-06-2012, 10:48
From memory the Bruil weighs either 350 or 380 grams. Wish I had a better memory! :doh:
(Approx) 360g, Bernie, as detailed on the website :)
Marco.
Peter,
I'd thoroughly recommend the Bruil, for trying on your SP10. It's heavy enough, just to do the job that's needed.
More information on the Bruil, here: http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/puck.html
Marco.
Hi Marco, thanks for the link. It was an interesting read.
No worries, Peter. The Bruil seems to match the SP10 rather well, visually, too! Rudolf is also a top chap to deal with :)
Marco.
No worries, Peter. The Bruil seems to visually match the SP10 rather well, too! Rudolf is also a top chap to deal with :)
Marco.
TBH though, this is the one I think will suit the SP10 better due to its mass.
http://www.ttweights.com/catalog/item/6997332/7020336.htm
Cheers
Pete.
Yes, providing that you like the sonic effect of high-mass T/T weights. The reason I don't like them on my T/T has nothing to do with the SL-1210 not having enough torque.
Yes, the SP10 has more, but don't make the mistake of thinking that because it does, a high-mass weight will work better. If it does, it'll be down to other factors; namely how its sonic signature synergises with that of your T/T and system, and also what type of sound you're trying to achieve and/or improvements you're trying to make, in the first place, by adding a T/T weight or clamp :)
Marco.
Yes, providing that you like the sonic effect of high-mass T/T weights. The reason I don't like them on my T/T has nothing to do with the SL-1210 not having enough torque.
Yes, the SP10 has more, but don't make the mistake of thinking that because it does, a high-mass weight will work better. If it does, it'll be down to other factors; namely how its sonic signature synergises with that of your T/T and system, and also what type of sound you're trying to achieve and/or improvements you're trying to make, in the first place, by adding a T/T weight or clamp :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
If only I could have a few of them and A/B test them in my system?? :scratch:
Pete.
Hi Pete,
Personally, I don't think you'd be disappointed with either the heavy one you're looking at, or the Bruil. Both will just do different things.
However, I'm always wary of companies who write stuff like this on their website:
This bad boy provides massive Bass improvement...
Erm.... :lol:
Another option I can recommend, which I know works a treat on SP10s, is the superb (and very reasonably priced) Michell record clamp. You should definitely give one of those a go :)
Marco.
TBH though, this is the one I think will suit the SP10 better due to its mass.
http://www.ttweights.com/catalog/item/6997332/7020336.htm
Cheers
Pete.
Given the SP10 uses a composite plastic cap on the end of the spindle I'd be very very cautious about putting an extra 1.5KG weight on it!!! ;)
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/IMG_0229.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/IMG_0228.jpg
I only recently discovered this!
Given the SP10 uses a composite plastic cap on the end of the spindle I'd be very very cautious about putting an extra 1.5KG weight on it!!! ;) I only recently discovered this!
I guess if the hole in the weight was longer than the shaft, then maybe the end of plastic cap would never make contact with the weight?
Cheers, Pete.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390430001559?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Wow, 1kg and pure Copper!
This would be interesting to compare with others. :scratch:
Has anybody ever had a stabilizer / clamp / weight shootout?
The Grand Wazoo
15-06-2012, 23:17
Surely the point of a weight (if there is one) is for it to bear down on the record? To have it sitting on top of the spindle and possibly suspended above the record would be rather silly would it not?
bogle111
15-06-2012, 23:35
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/390430001559?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Wow, 1kg and pure Copper!
This would be interesting to compare with others. :scratch:
Has anybody ever had a stabilizer / clamp / weight shootout?
On a TD521 - he cannot be serious!
A shootout, yes, decades ago, except that it threw up the fact that there were too many variables to be of any use as a hard and fast rule.
I guess if the hole in the weight was longer than the shaft, then maybe the end of plastic cap would never make contact with the weight?
Cheers, Pete.
Edit: Its the added weight on the platter that could deform the plastic end cap of the bearing shaft, it interfaces with a ball bearing in the bottom of the bearing well, IMHO its not a good idea to use such a heavy weight...
Stacker45
16-06-2012, 03:36
I'll keep this short,i use a Bren1 on my Technics SL-1200 Mk2 and i find that the sound is tighter,more focused.
Packgrog
14-03-2013, 15:25
I recently picked up a Rek-O-Kut DSC-1 Record Clamp/weight for my SL1200-MK2, and I really didn't like the sound when using it. In conjunction with the Achromat, the sound is tighter but too aggressive, as if everything's shouting. It sounded equally bad with and without the felt sticker on the bottom. I'd hoped that removing the sticker would make the sound closer to that of what could be had from the Bren1 without the added cost, but I don't know if that's accurate or not.
Every weighting experiment that I've tried has somehow flattened the soundstage, and killed the sense of natural air between the instruments. The Achromat has been a nice improvement over every other mat that I've tried (such as the Reso-Mat, the thick Technics rubber mat, the Music Hall Cork Mat), but I'm still hearing a bit of a veil to the sound. I thought that switching from Vaseline bonding to the provided stickers would help, and it did reduce my bass bloat (which wasn't helped my having my VTF of my DL-110 set too high at 2.0g instead of the 1.7g that I'm using now), but the mids and highs still seem a bit overwhelmed. The Rek-O-Kut tightens up the bass, but it ruins everything else.
Any thoughts? Anyone tried the Rek-O-Kut? Does the Bren1 really somehow provide better synergy?
MikeMusic
14-03-2013, 15:35
I recently picked up a Rek-O-Kut DSC-1 Record Clamp/weight, and I really didn't like the sound when using it. In conjunction with the Achromat, the sound is tighter but too aggressive, as if everything's shouting. It sounded equally bad with and without the felt sticker on the bottom. I'd hoped that removing the sticker would make the sound closer to that of what could be had from the Bren1 without the added cost, but I don't know if that's accurate or not.
Every weighting experiment that I've tried has somehow flattened the soundstage, and killed the sense of natural air between the instruments. The Achromat has been a nice improvement over every other mat that I've tried (such as the Reso-Mat, the thick Technics rubber mat, the Music Hall Cork Mat), but I'm still hearing a bit of a veil to the sound. I thought that switching from Vaseline bonding to the provided stickers would help, and it did reduce my bass bloat (which wasn't helped my having my VTF of my DL-110 set too high at 2.0g instead of the 1.7g that I'm using now), but the mids and highs still seem a bit overwhelmed. The Rek-O-Kut tightens up the bass, but it ruins everything else.
Any thoughts? Anyone tried the Rek-O-Kut? Does the Bren1 really somehow provide better synergy?
My guess. Something is not right. Maybe not to do with the Rek-O-Kut
I have a Funk Firm platter and a wonderful Achromat but no record weight or clamp yet.
Must remind Martin T to bring his Stillpoints and his potentially cast off old one (Bruil ?) next visit
Packgrog
14-03-2013, 15:52
Well, I still have the stock platter, and one that seems slightly warped at that. I have also not yet gotten the stock tonearm rewired, nor have I upgraded the power supply, but I'm using the KAB Fluid damper, and have a Sumiko HS12 headshell for the Denon and the aux weight to offset the mass of the Sumiko.
I've also noticed, with some degree of surprise, that SRA doesn't seem to be correct with particularly thin records. The 5mm mats just aren't quite tall enough. *shrug*
Regardless, I just haven't liked the sound when using a weight.
MikeMusic
14-03-2013, 16:01
Well, I still have the stock platter, and one that seems slightly warped at that. I have also not yet gotten the stock tonearm rewired, nor have I upgraded the power supply, but I'm using the KAB Fluid damper, and have a Sumiko HS12 headshell for the Denon and the aux weight to offset the mass of the Sumiko.
I've also noticed, with some degree of surprise, that SRA doesn't seem to be correct with particularly thin records. The 5mm mats just aren't quite tall enough. *shrug*
Regardless, I just haven't liked the sound when using a weight.
I'm no expert .... but when I took off the standard platter I noticed much it rang when tapped. Really *rang*
Could be you are emphasising a problem elsewhere
Perhaps it's the Irish saying
"If you want to go there I wouldn't start from here"
:)
Hopefully someone who knows what's going on will be along shortly
Don't ice hockey pucks make good "cheap" record weights?
Yes, they probably do (though I admit I haven't a clue how much such a puck costs).
The whole ringing platter issue is an interesting one. I've built quite a few platters and modified others.
It's a common 'design concept' that platters should be as inert as possible and lots of techniques have been applied to achieve this. I too have made heavily damped platters; but, in my view, over damping the platter (or any part of the turntable) is a bad idea and tends to lend a dynamically muted and over damped quality to the reproduction.
seoirse2002
18-03-2013, 19:54
Hi Guys,
I am weighing up (pardon the pun :lol:) a record weight / puck for my Technics SP10 MKII.
I was curious what you guys were using, or would recommend for my application, and why?
Obviously the SP10 does not suffer from a lack of torque, but I was curious what was the ideal material, weight, and dimensions.
I look forward to your feedback.
cheers
Pete.
I've tried a few weights and clamps,but found the Souther clever clamp to be the best,its very light,and you decide how far/tight to clamp it down depending on the level of warp you may have...cheap to buy as well on the bay,so no headaches/remorse if it doesen't suit:)
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