View Full Version : Technics 1210s
stupinder
05-06-2012, 16:37
My Xerxes is up for sale. I fancy a change and that's that. Nothing wrong with the Xerxes and i've loved my time with it but I do fancy a change BUT i'm being drawn gain to the techy.
I have a nice cartridge (AT 33 EV) and I do love the 1210s -i've had well over a half a dozen over the years and know them back to front.
Am i mental? Ok, I know the answer to that in its broader sense but with this topic in specific is where i'm looking for counsel.
Better off waiting for an SP10 or should I go for it?
Thought i'd do my thinking out loud on AOS as i know its 1210 friendly :-)
RobbieGong
05-06-2012, 17:03
Hi Stu, You know the deck inside out, then the only real questions are how far up the upgrade path are you looking to go, and secondly how much will you be looking to spend - I think those questions are somehow linked :) SP10's are said to be great but some of the guys here believe that there would be issues to consider with regard to age which you wouldn't necessarily have to worry about with a 12XX, especially a newer one. The Techie will sound awesome if you are out to fully uograde ie: Mike New bearing, 'better' arm, good external psu, and upgrade platter - If all done properly should see you sounding on par or above a stock SP10 some would say - Just ask Marco, Martin, John, Andrew etc
stupinder
05-06-2012, 17:08
You know the deck inside out, then the only real questions are how far up the upgrade path are you looking to go, and secondly how much will you be looking to spend - I think those questions are somehow linked :)
I know and hat's the dilemma - am i better waiting til I can source an SP10 or do i mod the hell out of a 1210.....or do i take a different route altogether....
Wakefield Turntables
05-06-2012, 17:12
sp10'S have to be pristine and in very fine fettle. they command large prices and command even larger prices to get the parts to fix them. A well thought out 1210 will trump a sp10 any time of day, PERIOD;)
RobbieGong
05-06-2012, 17:21
sp10'S have to be pristine and in very fine fettle. they command large prices and command even larger prices to get the parts to fix them. A well thought out 1210 will trump a sp10 any time of day, PERIOD;)
My feeling too Andrew, Lets just say that if I had the money at hand to go all the way with upgrades to my 1210 MK5g I would without hesitation I'ts only funds that have stopped me getting to the finishing line with finally maybe a Funk FX arm and a Mike New composite platter upgrade as the icing on the cake. The other thing that's been said by more than a few of the guys who have taken the fully modded route is that you then have a deck that you would have to spend a heck of a lot more to beat / better what you will have so bare that in mind.
One of the fundemental traits for me regarding the SL1200 is its musicality,where l have read a few times on the web is the 'not as musical' SP10, then you have to fettle it............. then you have to fettle the SL1200............. you get what l mean, have you heard an SP10, l too am in this position,whether to get a 'big' DD , but at this point l am enjoying my lightly modded SL1200 and am rather the tunes as it were.
If it was my cash i would go sp 10.
Stu, it's a journey I made many years ago with a gap in between. I don't miss my Xerxes/SME IV/AT OC9 at all as the top plate sagged and it became a bastard to keep setup properly. Once Roksan announced the end of it I sold it off in disgust.
To be honest, good as that deck sounded at the time, it was totally outclassed in every department by what I have now.
The Vinyl Adventure
05-06-2012, 19:05
Another xerxes - techie mover ... It was a good move!
I am nearly embarrased to post what went to a Techie from ;)
If it was my cash i would go sp 10.
Based on what criteria, Stuart?
I'm sure that some rationale would be appreciated by the OP :)
I'll comment more later.
Marco.
stupinder
06-06-2012, 07:19
Think i'm decided in my mind on the 1210 and will use it as a bit of a project over the next 18 months or so. I'm no DIYist so don't want to be getting into making plinths and what not.
Just need to flog the Xerxes over here now :)
Wakefield Turntables
06-06-2012, 08:14
You don't need to make a plinth for a 1210 the other upgrades can be fitted very easily so it make for a pleasant experience!
I'm very new to TTs so don't am not in a position to teach somebody like Stu anything. However when I bought the sl a few people adviced me to sell it and buy a sp10 rather than spend loads on the sl.
I seriously considered it and started searching for a sp10. I then realised I could be searching for a long time and also have a deck that is over twenty years old and so need a lot of remedial work.
So for me it didn't make sense as I don't have the time to put in the effort that may well be required to get the sp10 up to standard.
The cost of a sp10 that has already been fully sorted seems to be £2.5k +. My sl1200 with arm, psu, feet, bearing once all done will cost about £1.5k. This includes the mint deck I bought that had only ten hours use on it.
Beobloke
06-06-2012, 11:58
The cost of a sp10 that has already been fully sorted seems to be £2.5k +. My sl1200 with arm, psu, feet, bearing once all done will cost about £1.5k. This includes the mint deck I bought that had only ten hours use on it.
Where did you get that figure from? The recent SP10Mk2s I have seen on eBay have fetched between £350 and £700. Add in £400 for a nice Russ Collinson plinth and that's £1100 max. I don't know how much a Vantage Audio service would be on top of this but I'd be surprised if it was £1,400!
chris@panteg
06-06-2012, 12:11
Where did you get that figure from? The recent SP10Mk2s I have seen on eBay have fetched between £350 and £700. Add in £400 for a nice Russ Collinson plinth and that's £1100 max. I don't know how much a Vantage Audio service would be on top of this but I'd be surprised if it was £1,400!
It isn't ,but perhaps that figure includes arm and cart ? I like my 1210 but would love to own a nice SP10 ! It needs total commitment but why not ? Richard tells me he's confident he can restore almost any condition SP10 , even shagged one's but it will cost ! You need to be serious about an SP10 .
Based on what criteria, Stuart?
I'm sure that some rationale would be appreciated by the OP :)
I'll comment more later.
Marco.
Can't comment on the sound marco.
I would go for an sp10 mainly for resale value.
Lol - it just shows how different we are, dude. I never think of the resale value of kit that I buy, simply because it rarely (if ever) gets sold.
When I buy something, I make sure that it's exactly what I'm looking for, and therefore it's liable to be with me for years... My Techy, in that respect, was always a long-term project; one in which I set out to create my 'ultimate' T/T. I doubt that I'll ever sell it. I'm far more likely just to buy another (different) turntable.
Resale value is therefore irrelevant, as by the time I sell any of my kit, it'll have LONG since paid for itself! ;)
How long I've had my current kit for:
CDP/DAC: 6 years.
Turntable: 4 years.
Preamp: 7 years.
Power amp: 4 years.
Speakers: 3.5 years.
And I don't see any of it going for a long time either! :)
Marco.
You need to be serious about an SL as well!!! ;) Both option will involve some work but the SL one is probably the safest IMHO.
Indus post sums it up quite well. The SP10 is a complex deck, 99% of which will have taken abuse in a broadcast environment, getting a good one is a bit of a lottery and if you do it *will* need some work at some point in the future especially if the components are original.
Cost wise though £800~£1000 would get you a good one with plinth, there where a number on Ebay a while back from a Technics service center going for approx. £350 each...of course arm and cartridge are needed but if getting similar quality to a base 1210 then these would not cost much...
I'm very new to TTs so don't am not in a position to teach somebody like Stu anything. However when I bought the sl a few people adviced me to sell it and buy a sp10 rather than spend loads on the sl.
I seriously considered it and started searching for a sp10. I then realised I could be searching for a long time and also have a deck that is over twenty years old and so need a lot of remedial work.
So for me it didn't make sense as I don't have the time to put in the effort that may well be required to get the sp10 up to standard.
The cost of a sp10 that has already been fully sorted seems to be £2.5k +. My sl1200 with arm, psu, feet, bearing once all done will cost about £1.5k. This includes the mint deck I bought that had only ten hours use on it.
Where did you get that figure from? The recent SP10Mk2s I have seen on eBay have fetched between £350 and £700. Add in £400 for a nice Russ Collinson plinth and that's £1100 max. I don't know how much a Vantage Audio service would be on top of this but I'd be surprised if it was £1,400!
He's quoting Creepy Cawley's ('come to daddy and top up my pension fund') prices! ;)
Marco.
Sorry perhaps my figures are inaccurate, I did indeed see the prices quoted by a certain DC!
If you can get a fully sorted one (albeit) without a arm/cart for £800 then perhaps I have made a mistake and should have gone for the sp10. Iirc the sp10 has a better platter and bearing than the sl and upgrading these on the sl will cost more than the £800 cost of the sp10. On top of that the sp 10 has a better motor as well which furthers it's case.
Big Vern
06-06-2012, 16:30
I know that Richard at Vantage was planning a stupendous plinth for an SP10 - a bespoke affair for a client. It may be worth chatting with him (I think he's now back online).
I guess on the surface, an SP10 would seem to be the way to go, however, the comments re; age and parts is a fair one. In addition, I don't know how easy it would be to modify this deck - the SL1210 seems to lend itself to being modded, which clearly does take it to another level, perhaps above that of the stock SP10 ;)
Give Richard a call and he can talk you through the options...I know he's snowed under at the mo, so there may be a bit of a wait if you go down the Vantage route - especially for the SP-10 - but whichever way you go, Richard will see you right
decisions, decisions! :)
Wakefield Turntables
06-06-2012, 18:13
I don't know how easy it would be to modify this deck - the SL1210 seems to lend itself to being modded, which clearly does take it to another level, perhaps above that of the stock SP10 ;)
decisions, decisions! :)
It goes beyond the sp10 by a hell of a margin.
How long I've had my current kit for:
CDP/DAC: 6 years.
Turntable: 4 years.
Preamp: 7 years.
Power amp: 4 years.
Speakers: 3.5 years.
I've had my power amp for 11 years and there's still no sign of my replacing it with anything else.
Wakefield Turntables
06-06-2012, 18:15
I openly challenged anyone on the TimeStep forum to tell me why they thought the sp10 would win a heavily modded 1210. I got no answers. The SP10 is a great deck, in fact its a classic. BUT, I cant help but feel that the SP10 has a "snob" factor about it and your always going to get people who would prefer the SP10 over the 1210 purely for this factor alone. I think I'll stick with the 1210! :cool:
WOStantonCS100
06-06-2012, 20:01
I would give up ALL of my 1200's and maybe my left............. (nah, not that) for a Technics SP-10MK3.
However, I've had several chances to get an SP-10MK2 and have somehow wound up with several 1200's. It's not that I don't think an SP-10MK2 is a great deck. I do think it's a great deck. However, there are practical reasons I've chosen not to go down that road; the most important of which to me is the ability to get parts and fix things myself without incurring extra servicing fees if it ever really comes to that. So far, it never has, as not one of my 1200's has outright failed (and all of them are second hand, some considerably knackered). Furthermore, I considered the strengths and weakness of both. In my opinion the MN bearing is second to none and that includes the SP-10MK2 bearing. If one wants a heavy platter than MN's aluminum platter easily fits the bill. Is a heavy platter a must? Those using acrylic platters might beg to differ. It seems to me, a non-resonant platter that doesn't ring or one that is sympathetic to the vinyl is the true aim. If one wants a ridiculous PSU, than Paul Hynes' SR7EHD easily fits the bill. The SP-10MK2 is armless. The SL-1200MK2 can be fitted with a wide assortment of arms. If one uses and arm pod (say, at the rear left of the deck) a 12" arm can be used in addition to a 9" arm. It can also be replinthed. So, that leaves the issue of torque. But, massive torque is unnecessary since I'm not a broadcaster or DJ. Again, I'm not trying to take anything away from the SP-10MK2, a very nice deck, indeed. I guess, all things considered, I just haven't wanted one bad enough.
RobbieGong
06-06-2012, 20:03
I openly challenged anyone on the TimeStep forum to tell me why they thought the sp10 would win a heavily modded 1210. I got no answers. The SP10 is a great deck, in fact its a classic. BUT, I cant help but feel that the SP10 has a "snob" factor about it and your always going to get people who would prefer the SP10 over the 1210 purely for this factor alone. I think I'll stick with the 1210! :cool:
Excellent point Andrew, The SP10 has a certain 'Proper audiophile turntable' factor/ tag / aura to it hence some folk are missing a trick. Like you I know exactly what the 12XX is about and it's immense potential especially when properly upgraded - hence it's a keeper no doubt :)
Lodgesound
06-06-2012, 21:09
The SP10 has an incredibly high torque motor fitted - it starts and gets up to speed in around one-sixteenth of a revolution and as a result was used extensively in very high end broadcasting applications. All of the BBC's tape and grams sections in the studios at Television Centre were equipped with these.
Mounted properly with a high-end arm and cartridge they are a formidable opponent in this kind of installation however the 1210 was such a close second that they were far more abundant throughout BBC Radio. What was staggering about this model was it's design, build and sound quality at an incredibly reasonable price. With the modifications people here do that performance (with the exception of the motor torque) will create a far superior beast.
Its an apples to oranges comparison that cant be made IMHO. The SP10 is a motor unit, its sound will depend a lot on the type of plinth its set into and the arm and cartridge used. The decks are old now, they require maintenance like cap replacement and electrical setup and adjustment of various parameters, the PSU needs the same maintenance and careful setting of the 32.5v rail in conjunction with the timing adjustments made in the deck...set it out a little without revisiting the timing adjustments will see them go out of spec. I wonder how many decks out there are really in spec...not many I'd wager.
Also, comparisons are being made with a modified deck vs a standard non modified deck, if the same level of attention was paid to the SP10 in terms of power supplies and tighter drive control etc then who knows where the comparisons would stand. As standard the SP10 reaches a high level of performance, with careful maintenance its very good indeed, its speed control for instance is better than the stock 1210, how far could it be taken....who knows as there seems to be no viable upgrades for it...
This is not a question of whether a new or different plinth is NEEDED for a Technics SL12xx but whether there is a relatively simple way it can be done. I see that there is a (quite expensive) Inspire Monarch but I was wondering what would be possible along the lines of a DIY build.
The purpose for the new plinth would be only for a change in appearance (e.g., to have a wood look for the turntable) and/or to provide a suitable base for mods such as the Mike New bearing.
WOStantonCS100
07-06-2012, 04:58
This is not a question of whether a new or different plinth is NEEDED for a Technics SL12xx but whether there is a relatively simple way it can be done. I see that there is a (quite expensive) Inspire Monarch but I was wondering what would be possible along the lines of a DIY build.
The purpose for the new plinth would be only for a change in appearance (e.g., to have a wood look for the turntable) and/or to provide a suitable base for mods such as the Mike New bearing.
It can and has been done by others (with pictures on other forums). I've done it for the 13/14/150xMK2 series and am in the process of doing it for the 1200MK2. I wouldn't call it simple, though, at least, not if you're going for the Kaneta approach. Otherwise, the easiest way to get a wood look for the 1200 would probably be to get a "drop box" from KABUsa. As is, the 1200 will accomodate a MN bearing just fine w/ or w/o the base plate.
pure sound
07-06-2012, 14:01
Presumably a good number of people have by now upgraded from the SP10 to a 1210. If any of those people are here, what improvements in performance did you find?
Get an SL1200/1210 and make sure your wallet is bottomless! I have a spare or three!
The SP10 is a great deck, in fact its a classic. BUT, I cant help but feel that the SP10 has a "snob" factor about it and your always going to get people who would prefer the SP10 over the 1210 purely for this factor alone.
And:
The SP10 has a certain 'Proper audiophile turntable' factor/ tag / aura to it hence some folk are missing a trick.
Spot on! And that's your problem...
It's also why I detect a rather 'sniffy' and cynical attitude from *some* SP10 owners, towards the SL1200/1210, who grudgingly won't give the latter the credit it deserves, when judiciously modified, because by doing so, it devalues the perceived 'status' of their beloved SP10s, as no longer being 'kings of the T/T jungle', as it were...
Hey, guys, life (and things) move on, so dry your eyes and accept it ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
07-06-2012, 14:57
I don't sense that ? Forgive me but I find its usually old school audiophiles such as a good friend of mine who tend to look down there noses at these buffoons (me) who are trying to convince them a 1210 is a worthy contender ? In fact I will never forget the look of horror on his face when I told him I stuck an SME309 on it lol , he thinks I'm quite mad and have lost the plot lol, bless him though.
Oh, it's there, Chris, bubbling under the surface, trust me...! ;)
Marco.
Beobloke
07-06-2012, 15:48
Hold on though, maybe it's the inverse - a desperation from SL1200 owners to feel that their DJ deck* is better than it actually is now that they've spent thousands on it, when deep-down they wish they'd just bought an SP10 in the first place and some records with the change....
:D
* - NOTE: deliberate wind-up!
I couldn't care less. I'm too busy listening to my 1210 ;)
Hold on though, maybe it's the inverse - a desperation from SL1200 owners to feel that their DJ deck* is better than it actually is now that they've spent thousands on it, when deep-down they wish they'd just bought an SP10 in the first place and some records with the change....
:D
* - NOTE: deliberate wind-up!
Hehehehe... Sadly, I base all my judgements on such matters from direct A/B comparisons, with both T/Ts, in the same system - not from imagination or wishful thinking! ;)
Marco.
Get an SL1200/1210 and make sure your wallet is bottomless! I have a spare or three!
Wallet or SL1200/1210:ner:
Hold on though, maybe it's the inverse - a desperation from SL1200 owners to feel that their DJ deck* is better than it actually is now that they've spent thousands on it, when deep-down they wish they'd just bought an SP10 in the first place and some records with the change....
:D
* - NOTE: deliberate wind-up!
oh but there will be so many who agree with that won't there...:steam:
Wallet or SL1200/1210:ner:
both
the placebo effect on the human brain will tell it that after spending £5000+ on the item in question the sound emanating from the speakers is the equivalent to the performer(s) standing in front of you relatively speaking :)
that is why a bake off is such a necessity so you can get other people to agree with you and thus that monetary spend can be easily justified :)
WOStantonCS100
07-06-2012, 18:16
Hold on though, maybe it's the inverse - a desperation from SL1200 owners to feel that their DJ deck* is better than it actually is now that they've spent thousands on it, when deep-down they wish they'd just bought an SP10 in the first place and some records with the change....
:D
* - NOTE: deliberate wind-up!
It is a crap deck, really. A DJ's toy. The 1200 crowd at AOS is just a bunch of lunatics out to lunch. Someone needs to set 'em straight.
:D Maybe, if I keep saying this, the price will come back down on these and I can buy twelve more. Maybe, Martin will even let me take his off his hands for £50, Dynavector included. Yeah, that'd be sweet... :lol:
that is why a bake off is such a necessity so you can get other people to agree with you and thus that monetary spend can be easily justified :)
...or, like me, you use bake-offs as a learning experience, in terms of implementing any good ideas/new products others have come up with or bought, which you hadn't considered before! ;)
Moreover, however, it's all about having a laugh, hearing new music, and putting some faces to names :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
07-06-2012, 18:39
both
the placebo effect on the human brain will tell it that after spending £5000+ on the item in question the sound emanating from the speakers is the equivalent to the performer(s) standing in front of you relatively speaking :)
£5K+ how do you work this out??
£5K+ how do you work this out??
well you paid £1400 for your PSU did you not boss?
arm 2k, cart, platter, feet, tone-arm cable, it all adds up and can easily top 5k
hey I have just acquired a new cartridge, 2.5k worth so maybe I should join the 5k club along with you, marco, martin and others...:)
http://www.roksan.co.uk/roksan/products/no_19/images/main_img.jpg
...or, like me, you use bake-offs as a learning experience, in terms of implementing any good ideas/new products others have come up with or bought, which you hadn't considered before! ;)
Moreover, however, it's all about having a laugh, hearing new music, and putting some faces to names :cool:
Marco.
100% exactly right :)
Wakefield Turntables
07-06-2012, 19:10
well you paid £1400 for your PSU did you not boss?
arm 2k, cart, platter, feet, tone-arm cable, it all adds up and can easily top 5k
hey I have just acquired a new cartridge, 2.5k worth so maybe I should join the 5k club along with you, marco, martin and others...:)
http://www.roksan.co.uk/roksan/products/no_19/images/main_img.jpg
I've been very canny and get my stuff cheap! My V and Cart cost less than £2K, the PSU was less than £1400 as well ;) Can you check your PM box as I have a couple of questions for you. :cool:
Maybe, Martin will even let me take his off his hands for £50, Dynavector included. Yeah, that'd be sweet...
In your dreams, Biff :)
...or, like me, you use bake-offs as a learning experience
You just beat me to it, Marco. Bake-offs are great for:
- getting valuable additional opinions on whether you've got the sound going in the right direction, or whether another system gives you ideas on possible improvements
- the opportunity to hear other components
- the discovery of great new music
- convivial music talk and general meaningless banter
:)
Haggle, Biff - he'll move on £65! ;)
Marco.
chris@panteg
08-06-2012, 06:40
Presumably a good number of people have by now upgraded from the SP10 to a 1210. If any of those people are here, what improvements in performance did you find?
I see nobody has awnsered this question yet ? Interesting , I've never heard of anyone ditching an SP10 for a 1210 ? Unless the former was a write off or too much of a project ?
I don't see how anyone can make a statement that a 1210 heavily modified trumps an SP10 unless they have owned and lived with both ! Listening to one round a mate's is ok but hardly conclusive in my opinion , having both in your own system for a period of time ! It's a more convincing argument surely ?
One more thing , does anyone really believe a stock SP10 is no better than a stock 1210 ?
Hi Chris,
I think the reason that no-one has answered the question is because I'm unaware of anyone who's made the change. I can totally understand anyone owning a top-notch SP10 not being arsed looking at ANY other turntable, not simply just modified SL-1200/1210s, as what they've got would be more than good enough to satisfy them!
That would certainly be my position, if I owned a really good SP10. In fact, if that were the case, my SP10 would've been suitably 'race-tuned', in order to likely outperform any modded SL-1210!! :eyebrows:
However, by the same token, that doesn't mean that if someone changed their stock SP10, for a highly-modded SL-1210, that the change wouldn't result in a perceived sonic upgrade... ;)
As for living with both in your own system for a significant period of time, before being able to make a proper judgement on which is best, yes absolutely. However, one can simply report what one has heard to date, and put it into context accordingly.
In that respect, I can safely say that whenever I've heard my modded SL-1210, in the same system as an SP10, and where the listening session has lasted for some hours, it's never been sonically outclassed, and also that nothing I've heard from any SP10 has made me instantly want to ditch my 1210 and run out and buy one.
Trust me, if I that had been the case, I'd have done it by now! :exactly:
One would imagine, therefore, that if there were any major sonic differences between the T/Ts in question, they'd have become apparent during a fairly lengthy listening session, at home, or otherwise. Let's put it that way.
If someone is starting from scratch, and in the market for a top-notch D/D turntable, with a few grand to spend, and doesn't like something such as the Monarch, then both a good SP10 (in a proper plinth, with a decent arm and cartridge) and a highly-modded SL-1200/1210, deserve serious consideration.
One more thing , does anyone really believe a stock SP10 is no better than a stock 1210 ?
If they do, they're deaf!! :mental:
Marco.
WOStantonCS100
08-06-2012, 09:22
What sound does a stock SP-10MK2 make? ;)
The sound of silence. The SL-1000MK2 plays records. :lol: ...and some folks didn't care for the Obsidian base.
A blurb on ownership: In my opinion, ownership is not a qualifier for being able to intelligently speak about any turntable; experience is. I don't have an SP-10MK2 in the house anymore; but, neither do I have an SL-D2 anymore. Nevertheless, I've spent enough time with both to be able to explain why I don't have either one and how I felt they compared with not only the SL-1200MK2; but also the SL-14/1500MK2, SL-M3, SL-QL1, the ever so crappy SL-J2 so on and so on... If current ownership was the only qualifier, every time we box swapped, we would no longer be able to comment on what we previously had. That seems a bit daft to me.
chris@panteg
08-06-2012, 09:34
Thanks Marco , though I wish you wouldn't keep saying trust me ! Tony Blair said that quite often lol:eyebrows:
But what is the definitive sound ,of the SP10 ? I'm not convinced a slate plinth is the best option as so many believe ? Would like to hear Albert Porter's plinth , looks interesting.
chris@panteg
08-06-2012, 09:40
What sound does a stock SP-10MK2 make? ;)
The sound of silence. The SL-1000MK2 plays records. :lol: ...and some folks didn't care for the Obsidian base.
A blurb on ownership: In my opinion, ownership is not a qualifier for being able to intelligently speak about any turntable; experience is. I don't have an SP-10MK2 in the house anymore; but, neither do I have an SL-D2 anymore. Nevertheless, I've spent enough time with both to be able to explain why I don't have either one and how I felt they compared with not only the SL-1200MK2; but also the SL-14/1500MK2, SL-M3, SL-QL1, the ever so crappy SL-J2 so on and so on... If current ownership was the only qualifier, every time we box swapped, we would no longer be able to comment on what we previously had. That seems a bit daft to me.
Some people have owned SP10's and never got round to using them , some go to great lengths to get the best out of them and some can't be bothered ?
WOStantonCS100
08-06-2012, 10:37
Some people have owned SP10's and never got round to using them , some go to great lengths to get the best out of them and some can't be bothered ?
Very, very true. You got me on that last one. :) However, I will step on your cats throat (not really, I love cats) for an SP-10MK3. :lol: But, for me, having an SP-10MK2 now would purely be for the sake of the Techie collection, not that I thought a modded 1200 couldn't meet or exceed the SP-10 in sonic performance, if not ultimate torque.
As far as I've researched, the SP-10MK2 and all the other MK2 quartz DD's were on par as far as speed stability is concerned. Only the SP-10MK3 bettered them.
pure sound
08-06-2012, 16:44
When is someone going to upload a test tone recorded from a newish 1210 with uprated power supply & perhaps platter? The only 1210 so far submitted to the speed analysis on PFM was actually pretty poor in that regard. But that sample might have been an old nail.
Just haven't got around to it yet. Remind me what frequency tone to use? Hope it's on a HFS69 disc as that's all I have on vinyl.
pure sound
08-06-2012, 18:30
I think there's a 3K tone on HFS69 but I don't think its critical tbh.
When is someone going to upload a test tone recorded from a newish 1210 with uprated power supply & perhaps platter? The only 1210 so far submitted to the speed analysis on PFM was actually pretty poor in that regard. But that sample might have been an old nail.
+1 it would be interesting to see, if you have a test LP use the 3150hz wow & flutter track...
Thanks Marco , though I wish you wouldn't keep saying trust me ! Tony Blair said that quite often lol:eyebrows:
Ha - point taken!
But what is the definitive sound ,of the SP10 ? I'm not convinced a slate plinth is the best option as so many believe ? Would like to hear Albert Porter's plinth , looks interesting.
Got any links to the plinth in question? I've not heard of that one.
I also don't think that slate works best, for an SP10. I like the idea of using a combination of various hardwoods.
As for the "definitive sound" of an SP10? Well, it sounds as sonically neutral as a T/T possible can, simply allowing the partnering arm and cartridge to faithfully reproduce what's on the record, just like the best modded SL-1210s do (or any other proper turntable) should do!
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
09-06-2012, 08:17
Got any links to the plinth in question? I've not heard of that one.
I think he has done a few - here's one.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1227334719
http://www.porterhouseaudio.com/
Wow, those look awesome... I particularly like the Ebony Lumber over Panzerholz:
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3863/5mk3ebonyfinishtop.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/5mk3ebonyfinishtop.jpg/)
If I owned an SP10, that's exactly what I'd put it in! :)
Marco.
Gosh, that ebony plinth looks good. Must be heavy as hell.
Wonder if you could house a 1210 in one? It could be the ultimate way to finish off our T/Ts! ;)
Marco.
I'd rather transplant all the sections than just drop the whole plinth into one, but then that's my engineering brain telling me to do things properly.
The real dilemma would be whether any new plinth would sound better than the rather excellent Technics sandwich.
I'd rather transplant all the sections than just drop the whole plinth into one...
That's exactly what I meant. I wouldn't be into doing it solely for cosmetic reasons. Do you reckon it'd be possible?
The real dilemma would be whether any new plinth would sound better than the rather excellent Technics sandwich.
Indeed, but my gut feeling says that it would. I may pop them an email and enquire about prices :)
Marco.
Sonority
09-06-2012, 10:45
I'd rather transplant all the sections than just drop the whole plinth into one, but then that's my engineering brain telling me to do things properly.
The real dilemma would be whether any new plinth would sound better than the rather excellent Technics sandwich.
Not easy, but it's in the process of being done ;-)
Difficult to decide just what timber to choose, so many beautiful finishes out there.
I'd rather transplant all the sections than just drop the whole plinth into one...
That's exactly what I meant. I wouldn't be into doing it solely for cosmetic reasons. Do you reckon it'd be possible?
The real dilemma would be whether any new plinth would sound better than the rather excellent Technics sandwich.
Indeed, but my gut feeling says that it would. I may pop them an email and enquire about prices :)
Marco.
You guys are amazing, I hope you'll keep us updated with piccies if you do decide to go down this route coz I reckon the end result is going to be something really special... :respect:
Not easy, but it's in the process of being done ;-)
Difficult to decide just what timber to choose, so many beautiful finishes out there.
More info required!!
Sonority
09-06-2012, 11:34
Well, it's a long term project, and I'll be happy to tell all when I'm satisfied it actually works well and looks good.
The only bits of the 1210 used are the top plate, electronics and possibly the platter, but that will be substituted for certain.
Getting that top plate to sit nicely in a plinth & stop it from ringing like a bell took some head scratching I can assure you. Then securing it takes yet more imagination.
The multitude of heights everything is at on it also creates a fair few headaches.
I have a feeling it will be worth it in the end.
chris@panteg
09-06-2012, 11:37
Ha - point taken!
Got any links to the plinth in question? I've not heard of that one.
I also don't think that slate works best, for an SP10. I like the idea of using a combination of various hardwoods.
As for the "definitive sound" of an SP10? Well, it sounds as sonically neutral as a T/T possible can, simply allowing the partnering arm and cartridge to faithfully reproduce what's on the record, just like the best modded SL-1210s do (or any other proper turntable) should do!
Marco.
Take a look here , scroll down , very fine construction and finish .
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/sp10plinth.html
chris@panteg
09-06-2012, 11:41
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/sp10mk3_porter_left_tt800.jpg
I do rather like that:)
chris@panteg
09-06-2012, 11:45
Albert's MK3 , now that is scrumy yes :)
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1330203785.jpg
WOStantonCS100
09-06-2012, 16:51
Albert's MK3 , now that is scrumy yes :)
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1330203785.jpg
I've just soiled myself. I like a reddish cherry or ebony best. How in the world does one find a MK3!?!?!?!? Makes me sick... :lol:
WOStantonCS100
11-06-2012, 20:34
Another little tidbit from the spec sheets:
SP-10MK2 & SL-1200MK2 rated W&F .025% WRMS
SL-M3 rated W&F .022% WRMS
:stalks: SP-10MK3 rated W&F .015% WRMS
For me the real eye opener isn't how close the SP-10 and 1200 are. It's that, they are both outclassed by the SP-10MK3.
Now, that's just one spec and I'll be the first to admit that specs on paper are not all there is; but, they're also not just a peak in the window. According to the manufacturer's own test, the SP-10MK2 was not always king of the hill. In fact, the rumble specs of the SL-M3 are better than the SP-10MK2, as well. Granted, the SL-M3 has issues, like the fruit box plinth and the motorized arm; but, like the SL-1200MK2, these issues can be addressed. These are the kind of things that listening tests bore out for me. In actual listening, all (the MK2 types, at least) are a lot closer in sonic performance than many suggest given a level playing field (ie. decent plinth, good arm, maintenance and upgrades). This can all be considered my opinion, though. Everyone has to do their own research and critical listening tests.
Wow, those look awesome... I particularly like the Ebony Lumber over Panzerholz:
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/3863/5mk3ebonyfinishtop.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/441/5mk3ebonyfinishtop.jpg/)
If I owned an SP10, that's exactly what I'd put it in! :)
Marco.
Whoa! What about that SME V Marco? ;)
pure sound
11-06-2012, 21:36
For me the real eye opener isn't how close the SP-10 and 1200 are. It's that, they are both outclassed by the SP-10MK3.
I'm sure all 3 turntables turn in W&F figures that are well below what might be heard. As CD replay shows, plain W&F is not the whole story. In turntables, how the speed correction works & adjusts the rotation, whether the dollops of power applied compromise isolation of the platter and of course whether the plinth system utilised affords the best isolation, these all have more bearing imho.
Also, W&F measurements are usually tested with a continuous tone. The real test is speed variation under load with real music, where some turntables audibly slow down (heard as pitch instability) when things get busy.
sq225917
12-06-2012, 06:49
I wish there was a more attractive way to plinth up an Sp10, I've yet to see one that I'd really consider elegant.
WOStantonCS100
12-06-2012, 07:02
I wish there was a more attractive way to plinth up an Sp10, I've yet to see one that I'd really consider elegant.
There's only so much one can do with something made to drop in a broadcaster's console/desk. It's kind of like wishing an EMT looked more like a Spotheim La Luce. Form follows function, I guess. I've come to appreciate the differences.
EDIT: I should say that I really didn't like the looks of the EMT's at first and couldn't understand why they were in high regard. I have to look at tables like these (and the Gates and Fairchilds) through that other pair of eyes.
The Grand Wazoo
12-06-2012, 07:23
I have to look at tables like these (and the Gates and Fairchilds) through that other pair of eyes.
Or how about a lovely Russco Studio-Pro BID with it's gear lever speed change?
http://elu.co.kr/data/file/pp/2048927032_99a716ee_Russco.tt_02.jpg http://images04.olx.com/ui/5/72/43/1270710324_86626943_4-Vintage-Russco-Studio-Pro-BID-Transcription-Turntable-For-Sale-1270710324.jpg
WOStantonCS100
12-06-2012, 07:31
Or how about a lovely Russco Studio-Pro BID with it's gear lever speed change?
http://elu.co.kr/data/file/pp/2048927032_99a716ee_Russco.tt_02.jpg http://images04.olx.com/ui/5/72/43/1270710324_86626943_4-Vintage-Russco-Studio-Pro-BID-Transcription-Turntable-For-Sale-1270710324.jpg
Wow, they did a nice job with that one!
Sometimes I don't want to twinkle-toe over to the turntable with a cuppa in one hand (pinky extended) and smelling like roses to play a record. (I do that, just not all the time.) The other times I want to walk right up to the deck scratching a nad and breaking wind; playing records like a man. :lol:
Wow - I love those American broadcast T/Ts... They sound fab! Nice vintage Shure arm on it, too, that again sounds superb, especially with an M3D, which that arm was specifically designed for :)
I also like the Gates broadcast T/Ts:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9423/gatestt.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/515/gatestt.jpg/)
One day, I'll take on a Russco or a Gates, as a project for modifying, and see what results I get :cool:
Marco.
Beobloke
12-06-2012, 08:18
It's kind of like wishing an EMT looked more like a Spotheim La Luce.
The La Luce is a new one on me so I've just Googled it.
On looks alone, I'd personally MUCH rather have an EMT!
The La Luce is a new one on me so I've just Googled it.
On looks alone, I'd personally MUCH rather have an EMT!
agree :)
Too right - that Spotheim La Luce thing is utterly gross!!! :spew:
I do so detest the blingy, 'style over substance' bollocks, which is prevalent in the uber high-end T/T market :rolleyes:
Marco.
BTH K10A
12-06-2012, 18:08
:confused:
There's only so much one can do with something made to drop in a broadcaster's console/desk. It's kind of like wishing an EMT looked more like a Spotheim La Luce. Form follows function, I guess. I've come to appreciate the differences.
EDIT: I should say that I really didn't like the looks of the EMT's at first and couldn't understand why they were in high regard. I have to look at tables like these (and the Gates and Fairchilds) through that other pair of eyes.
That's like saying a blower Bentley would be better if if looked like a pimped up Caddy :eek:
I suppose it's horses for courses but I know which one I'd rather have ;)
Then again, what do I know :confused:
WOStantonCS100
12-06-2012, 19:16
:confused:
That's like saying a blower Bentley would be better if if looked like a pimped up Caddy :eek:
I suppose it's horses for courses but I know which one I'd rather have ;)
Then again, what do I know :confused:
Exactly my point. :)
stupinder
15-06-2012, 07:47
Well it looks like this project will have to go on hold til the present tt sells ....grrrrr
WOStantonCS100
15-06-2012, 08:55
More food for thought while you're waiting:
"The SP10s regulation-circuits consisted of 108 transistors, 14 IC's, and 32 diodes and condensators. These are located on six circuit-boards with four of them under the platter and two of them in the separate housing of the power-supply."
If this gent's got his facts right... ...Holy Cow, Batman! I never actually counted them.
Its a beast for sure but lets not get too carried away :)
Two PCBs in the PSU as there are three supplies required.
Four PCB's in the deck itself (MKII) but one serves as a mid-plane interconnect board so no active components, the main boards are the drive, control and logic...its these three that are the key ones...
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/SP10/DSCF6878.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/SP10/DSCF6881.jpg
WOStantonCS100
15-06-2012, 17:52
Its a beast for sure...
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/SP10/DSCF6878.jpg
;)
I think it shows what a high level of integration the essentially two-chip (I simplify but that's about it) SL-12xx series circuit is compared with that hugely discrete SP-10 build. Between them, the AN6675 and AN6680 do practically everything.
RobbieGong
15-06-2012, 18:46
I think it shows what a high level of integration the essentially two-chip (I simplify but that's about it) SL-12xx series circuit is compared with that hugely discrete SP-10 build. Between them, the AN6675 and AN6680 do practically everything.
Hi Martin, For a thicky like me what in simplified terms does that mean or equate to ?
Reid Malenfant
15-06-2012, 18:59
Hi Martin, For a thicky like me what in simplified terms does that mean or equate to ?
I hope you don't mind me replying, I'm sure Martin probably will as well :)
Put simply damn near all the ICs & transistors used in the SP10 were effectively integrated onto a couple of chips. This can have advantages & disadvantages.
On the whole though it'd be advantageous. For starters it'd be cheaper, but with no real reduction in quality, in fact there may well be an increase in quality due to the circuitry on each chip running at a more even temperature (thermal stability) than stuff all over the place.
The result should be a more speed stable TT.
Less fault finding if something goes wrong, just a couple of big chips to check rather than loads of tiddlers :rolleyes:
The only negative might be that you could get a better grounding scheme with things seperated out rather than bunched together, though I'd guess this was taken into account.
Hope that helps :)
RobbieGong
15-06-2012, 19:07
Thanks Mark :) RE: the SL12XX - Is the 'think it shows what a high level of integration the essentially two-chip SL12XX series circuit is compared with that hugely discrete SP-10 build ' comment positive or negative in regard to the 12XX ?
Reid Malenfant
15-06-2012, 19:22
In regards the electronics I'd have to say I'd swing towards the positive :)
Howzat :cool:
RobbieGong
15-06-2012, 19:25
In regards the electronics I'd have to say I'd swing towards the positive :)
Howzat :cool:
Excellent as always Mark and much appreciated :)
Robert, Mark has said it all. I think that by integrating everything into two chips, Panasonic/Technics made an extremely reliable and easy to repair turntable circuit. We know that that was true in hindsight.
RobbieGong
15-06-2012, 20:14
Cheers Martin, Yet another reason why we love and improve our great Techies (cause they are without a doubt worth improving) even if some dont quite get it :)
Lodgesound
15-06-2012, 20:25
I'm middle aged now but when I was 15 I earned enough money cutting lawns to go out and buy an SL 1200 Mk 2.
I fitted it with a decent cartridge after cutting about a hundred more lawns ( spent nearly £300 on the cardtridge ) and mounted the the Technics on an isolation platform.
Staggering sound. I was told by EVERY SINGLE HIFI "EXPERT" I KNEW that i could'nt possibly be achieving anywhere near an even acceptable sound.
I knew they were utterly wrong then.
How times change..............I went into recording engineering as a profession.......thankfully I'm well out of it all now.
The SL 1200 / 1210 is still one of the best turntables ever made.
RobbieGong
15-06-2012, 20:41
I'm middle aged now but when I was 15 I earned enough money cutting lawns to go out and buy an SL 1200 Mk 2.
I fitted it with a decent cartridge after cutting about a hundred more lawns ( spent nearly £300 on the cardtridge ) and mounted the the Technics on an isolation platform.
Staggering sound. I was told by EVERY SINGLE HIFI "EXPERT" I KNEW that i could'nt possibly be achieving anywhere near an even acceptable sound.
I knew they were utterly wrong then.
How times change..............I went into recording engineering as a profession.......thankfully I'm well out of it all now.
The SL 1200 / 1210 is still one of the best turntables ever made.
My sentiments exactly Stewart and I've had quite a few decks over the years - And to think up until recently you'd get a new MK2 for around £300 ish and in that context too it's a big yeah !!
Robert, Mark has said it all. I think that by integrating everything into two chips, Panasonic/Technics made an extremely reliable and easy to repair turntable circuit. We know that that was true in hindsight.
Yep, but the SP10 is what, 35 years old, you can still repair it with parts from Radio Spares (I know as I had to replace all the logic devices in mine), you can't buy the two LSI chips in the 1210 NOW, and in 35 years time if one dies, thats it, its dead.
Plenty of spares around, though, Nick - there's not exactly a shortage of SL-1200s or 1210s... How many were produced in total, before they were discontinued, about half a million? :eyebrows:
Besides, in 35 years, I think the least of our worries will be turntables! :D
Marco.
Mike_New
15-06-2012, 23:35
In fact the only reason the 14 pin ICs are so large, is so that pin connections to the outside world could be made to them in the early days of IC technology. The surface mount components that Paul uses are much smaller.
Ponder the fact that there are over 4 million transistors or "active elements" (those black things you can see with three legs) in a computer chip!!!
chris@panteg
16-06-2012, 06:11
Plenty of spares around, though, Nick - there's not exactly a shortage of SL-1200s or 1210s... How many were produced in total, before they were discontinued, about half a million? :eyebrows:
Besides, in 35 years, I think the least of our worries will be turntables! :D
Marco.
Yeah I'm still looking for a decent walking stick lol , in 35 years time you will be trading in your 1210 for the latest stannah stair lift :eyebrows:
I think it was more like 3 million ?
MikeMusic
16-06-2012, 08:46
Staggering sound. I was told by EVERY SINGLE HIFI "EXPERT" I KNEW that i could'nt possibly be achieving anywhere near an even acceptable sound.
I knew they were utterly wrong then.
Received wisdom of the time
I 'knew' it was no good as that was what I'd heard from the everyone - I think
Would be good to have a portal in time to go back to the mid 80s and talk to ourselves
(from memory)
You started with a Dual, upgraded to a Rega, upgraded to an LP12 or if you were really left field a Pink Triangle.
Yeah I'm still looking for a decent walking stick lol , in 35 years time you will be trading in your 1210 for the latest stannah stair lift...
I think it was more like 3 million ?
Was it? Wow... There should be a few LSI chips kicking about then, before we cash in our chips! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Ponder the fact that there are over 4 million transistors or "active elements" (those black things you can see with three legs) in a computer chip!!!
Bit beyond the times, there were 3 million in a pentium, its up in the billions now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Transistor_Count_and_Moore%27s_Law_-_2008.svg
tunein4fun
17-06-2012, 11:59
Hello, first post on this fantastic Forum!
I've had many(!) Technics SP-10Mk2 in the past, both with the loaf-sized psu and the 19" rack mount job, and also a beautiful, "complete package" SL-1000Mk2.
Furthermore, I've had quite a few EMT DD machines over the years: 938, 948 and the wonderful monster-sized 950.
Some of these produced exceptional sound quality - best one in that respect (for me) was the 950 (fitted with EMT TSD-15SFL or Ortofon OM PRO-S, as used by the BBC), closely followed by the SL-1000Mk2 (fitted with Accuphase AC-2 MC). But, and this for me is a crucial point, none of the above delivered music, just sound.
They were - in this respect - easily bested by a good idler- or belt drive machine. I therefore ended up with a Lenco L75 in massive plinth mounted à la Jean Nantais, which for me is the best TT I've heard in terms of a combination of musicality and sound quality. At the same time, I always wanted an easy-to-maintain, no fuss TT, that I also could lift on my own, without risking a hernia.
By chance, I came across a used SL-1210Mk2 at a very good price, fitted with a Stanton 500 (gold body, spherical), so I thought...DD again...why...but I'll have a go...and was perplexed by just how good this TT played music. In this respect, it's in a different universe, compared to its stablemate, the SP-10Mk2...just no meaningful comparison there.
The "rightness" of the sound too - very well balanced, detailed with good spatial info etc...great stuff!!! Super ergonomics...and moveable by me on my own too he he. A winner in my book, and since I got it, it has been playing music all day long, every day, which is a tell tale sign...:)
This SL-1210Mk2 is still completely stock, and I do appreciate the comments that can be found here and there, about it sounding a bit "dark" etc, but I'm fairly confident that this is something that can be quite easily overcome, without having to spend large (-er) amounts of your hard earned, heavily taxed readies, on high priced "boutique" upgrades offered from a number of sources (unless you feel you must...).
I'm still amazed that it never crossed my mind to try one of these before...afterall...they've been around since the glorious 1970's :stalks:
That's my two pennies worth.
This SL-1210Mk2 is still completely stock, and I do appreciate the comments that can be found here and there, about it sounding a bit "dark" etc, but this - in my mind - is something that can be quite easily overcome, without having to spend large (-er) amounts of your hard earned, heavily taxed readies.
The right fundamentals are there for sure, which is no mean feat.
I'm still amazed that it never crossed my mind to try one of these before...afterall...they've been around since the glorious 1970's :stalks:
That's my two pennies worth.
Changing out the rubber mat and fitting a classier headshell are the two fundemental changes IMO and I wonder how many negative comments about this deck have been made with the experience of only hearing it absolutely stock. These two simple changes eliminate the dark sound and the 'shoutiness'. There are some who think the only way to get this deck sounding good is to spend a couple of grand on it and therefore dismiss the whole thing as impractical/pointless. The 'If you are going to spend that much why not buy a Gyrodec' viewpoint. That is not true IME, which is not to say that the more expensive mods do not improve the deck I should point out.
chris@panteg
17-06-2012, 12:55
Interesting stuff , I guess many make this claim about the LP12 , not especially a great sound or accurate sound but it plays music ! But everybody has there own notion of how music should be presented , the LP12 at its best sounds very tuneful but also a rather flat and two dimensional soundstage which many are not concerned about , a stock 1200 can also sound very musical but rather flat and two dimensional .
I agree re the soundstaging, Chris. It is not as good in this respect as my Systemdex IIX, although it varies depending on the cartridge in use. Not everyone is concerned about soundstaging, though, and in alot of cases the domestic environment means that this is compromised with speaker placement and room issues anyway. Judging by the gallery snaps a lot of folk have their speakers very close together - closer than I would like anyway!
Also agre re the LP12, always an enjoyable listen and I wanted one for a long time. It gets too much bad press these days but then a new one does seem just a little bit expensive for what you get.
tunein4fun
17-06-2012, 13:52
I've had quite a few Sondeks too in the past ( first one in the arly 1980's, and ran them in various configurations til the mid 90's - still have one in store, for nostalgic reasons), but it's my notion that all belt drives I've had (TD166, AR-XA & LP12 being my favourites), can sound very musical but also "slow", and are having difficulty with resolving dynamics and detail, especially in complex, heavily modulated passages - it's a bit like the springiness of the rubber band that drives them, and probably caused by it. So sounding a bit slow and muddled at times...they're a perfect candidate for "elevator music" service, in the nicest sense of that expression.
In comparison, the best idler drives (my fave is the Lenco in the JN style plinth, then the EMT 927 and the 930...but I also have a Gates CB-500 awaiting restoration) - will clearly and comfortably outperform these belt machines as regards accurate pitch and musical timing, maintaining correct drive through even very complex musical passages, and - if properly sorted - resolve a very high degree of details from the groove.
What I heard from the aforementioned DDs (EMT 950 and Techncis SL-1000Mk2), was an exceptional amount of detail retrieval, giving a sensation of unparallelled control when reading the groove. My conclusion was that, since both of these have a very, very quiet drive systems, that was what made this possible. But sadly...as mentioned...no music from these, just that wonderful HQ sound - sort of a "high precision" sound if you like. If the 950 had been able to purvey a reasonable level of musical emotion too, my search for "best" TT would have been over.
That was why I was so pleased to find the SL-1210Mk2 possessing the musical ability while at the same time clearly providing the foundation for a very high degeree of that "precision sound" - something I had given up on.
I've not gone through as many decks as you have Peter but would agree with what you say about the ability to resolve the busy, dynamic part of a recording, as I listen to a lot of rock music that is really important to me and the SL1200 just seems to sail through them with so much confidence I find I can really relax and enjoy the music rather than sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for it to run out of puff, as it were. That ability alone is worth some small sacrifice in other areas IMO.
Best deck I have heard to date was a heavily modded Lenco that, in a nutshell, did everything right. An eye opener that one.
Hi Peter,
Welcome to AoS! :)
...it's my notion that all belt drives I've had (TD166, AR-XA & LP12 being my favourites), can sound very musical but also "slow", and are having difficulty with resolving dynamics and detail, especially in complex, heavily modulated passages - it's a bit like the springiness of the rubber band that drives them, and probably caused by it. So sounding a bit slow and muddled at times...they're a perfect candidate for "elevator music" service, in the nicest sense of that expression.
In comparison, the best idler drives (my fave is the Lenco in the JN style plinth, then the EMT 927 and the 930...but I also have a Gates CB-500 awaiting restoration) - will clearly and comfortably outperform these belt machines as regards accurate pitch and musical timing, maintaining correct drive through even very complex musical passages, and - if properly sorted - resolve a very high degree of details from the groove.
I think that you and I are going to get on ;)
I don't know about "elevator music", but your description above mirrors my own experiences, to date, in that area. Interesting that you find a stock Techy more 'musical' than an EMT950...
I'm not sure I'd agree, but with turntables, so much depends on set-up, and synergy with the partnering system. Have you heard an SP10? If so, where would you place that in the grand scheme of things?
Marco.
chris@panteg
17-06-2012, 14:14
I've not gone through as many decks as you have Peter but would agree with what you say about the ability to resolve the busy, dynamic part of a recording, as I listen to a lot of rock music that is really important to me and the SL1200 just seems to sail through them with so much confidence I find I can really relax and enjoy the music rather than sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for it to run out of puff, as it were. That ability alone is worth some small sacrifice in other areas IMO.
Best deck I have heard to date was a heavily modded Lenco that, in a nutshell, did everything right. An eye opener that one.
Martin I agree with that and why my 1210 will stay in my system for some time to come.
tunein4fun
17-06-2012, 14:31
Hi Marco, and thanks!
As mentioned in my first post (#113), I rate the 950 and the SL-1000Mk2 (a.k.a. the SP-10Mk2 / EPA-100 / Technics obsidian plinth) very highly as regards "exceptional ability" to resolve detail, and a sense of "control" even when it gets really "windy". SL-1000Mk2 to my ears, sounds a bit more "champagne" tinted that the 950 overall. Musically though - these do not stand a chance, and were therefore ultimately useless to me. Of the EMT DDs, the smallest 938, was the one that provided the most (but not sufficient) musical enjoyment. The SL-1210 is in a different league there.
I've also had/heard SP10-Mk's mounted in plywood worktops (from the BBC)...
I never had the original SP-10 nor the (extravagantly) rare -Mk3, so cannot comment on those. It would seem though, that Technics were trying to resolve "issues" by creating the Mk3, and that those issues were neither cosmetical nor ergonomical. Having listened to the -Mk2, my guess would be the musicality issue ;-) I don't have a clue whether they managed to simplify the complex electronics inside the -Mk2 with the -Mk3 or not, but surely that should have been on their list of priorities. In the home of a big-time record collector (!), I've also heard the SP-10Mk2 in what appeared to be an ambitious, seriously thought out custom plinth with 12" Ittok arm...should have sounded pretty good...but failed to impress - on any level. Another listening test was carried out at a pro audio dealer's place in the late -90's or maybe earlier -00's: He demonstrated his comepletely stripped and refurbished (electronics too) SP-10Mk2 /custom Corian plinth / SME V / Sumiko BPS (I think, or it could have been a Denon DL-304...). I had brought along my Loricraft plinthed/psu:ed TD124/SME IV/Goldring 1042...same result, and that dealer got really interested in my Thorens :-)
For me, as things stand; my overall "best" machine is my Lenco/Rabco, direct coupled to massive plinth à la Jean Nantais. The little compact, easy-to-place/move about Technics...I'm intrigued by it, and will see where it will take me :-) ...what I'm hearing already now (stock) is very promising!
WOStantonCS100
17-06-2012, 17:30
Though I would rate the SP-10 a bit higher than you have ;), overall, your experiences with the SP-10 in comparison to the 1200 are similar to mine. More or less, I was expecting to be bowled over by the SP-10 (still a great table IMO). I was expecting it to "murder" the 1200 and the other MK2 variants. That just didn't happen for me and maybe I'm not that crazy after all. :lol: I also agree about well sorted idlers (my experience was with Garrards) having a very infectious rhythmic drive, if not all out slam (fond memories). Where the 1200 hundred falls down a little bit (in stock form) compared to the Garrards is in bass slam, IMO. But, that can be remedied with upgrades.
tunein4fun
17-06-2012, 18:59
Though I would rate the SP-10 a bit higher than you have ;), overall, your experiences with the SP-10 in comparison to the 1200 are similar to mine. More or less, I was expecting to be bowled over by the SP-10 (still a great table IMO). I was expecting it to "murder" the 1200 and the other MK2 variants. That just didn't happen for me and maybe I'm not that crazy after all. :lol: I also agree about well sorted idlers (my experience was with Garrards) having a very infectious rhythmic drive, if not all out slam (fond memories). Where the 1200 hundred falls down a little bit (in stock form) compared to the Garrards is in bass slam, IMO. But, that can be remedied with upgrades.
I had a fun few years with the Garrards, second half of the -90's, tried Bastin plinth for my 301, Loricraft for my 401, various arms and carts - really "fun" to listen too. The 401 was the ever so marginally better one to my ears. Eventually, when I jumped on an EMT 930, I realised that the Garrards pitch had a slightly relentless nature, more noticeable on some kinds of material than others, but nevertheless, and there was no going back. The 930 IMO was also better in other areas. That's where I was at, when Jean Nantais started his monster Lenco thread at Audiogon. Well, it actually had been going for some time, when I stumbled on it. I deicided to have a go, and ended up with my very large, very heavy monster Lenco fitted with the Rabco tonearm. This turntable is very good, and for me, fairly impossible to criticise apart from its physical properties.
The SP-10Mk2 though, never made me tap my feet, or want to whistle along or otherwise engage me in the "music/sound" being played...nada...
Anything that actually plays music, is better...regardless of what it is.
I know of at least one person who have spent almost astronomical amounts (to my mind at least), trying to sort the SP-10Mk2 out, but failed...
The -Mk3 I never heard, but maybe someone on this Forum who owns both could share an opinion regarding the relative differences, soundwise / musicalitywise and otherwise between the SP-10Mk2and the Mk-3...would be interesting - Thanks!
tunein4fun
18-06-2012, 10:58
...I don't know about "elevator music"
Used in the best possible, non derogatory way - "elevator music" here, meaning low level backgroung listening.
Interesting that you find a stock Techy more 'musical' than an EMT950... Is that hard to believe..? :)
I'm not sure I'd agree, but with turntables, so much depends on set-up, and synergy with the partnering system...
Not more so than with any other component IME. Correct set up is mandatory, but after that, there's nothing "special" to take into account when evaluating a turntable IMO.
pure sound
18-06-2012, 16:57
Not more so than with any other component IME. Correct set up is mandatory, but after that, there's nothing "special" to take into account when evaluating a turntable IMO.
You mean besides the arm used, cartridge used, step up used & phono stage used? (not to mention what it stands on)
It is a little more involved than evaluating a cd player for example or a tuner.
Hehehe... Indeed! I'll get to this later. There have been some interesting points raised, which deserve looking at in more detail :)
Marco.
tunein4fun
18-06-2012, 19:33
You mean besides the arm used, cartridge used, step up used & phono stage used? (not to mention what it stands on)
It is a little more involved than evaluating a cd player for example or a tuner.
:) It's not necessary to fit any particular brand/model/type of cartridge on a turntable, other than one that matches the arm mechanically, in terms of resonances etc, to be able to tell how good the turntable sounds. I think it's a bit of a misconception if somebody says that a very good cartridge for instance must be used in order to be able to tell whether it's a good table or not. Any decent and properly working cart that matches the arm will serve that purpose.
This is for determining the basic abilities of the table and it will provide a fairly good idea - it's not a question of trying to establish just how far these qualities can be developed by means of the things that you mention; better arms and cartridges, support, tweaks, cables etc, just the level of basic qualities the table has. As for trying various supports, placement, and general system matching, I don't feel that the turntable is very different from other components in that respect - most of them do respond in some way to differences here. A good example might well be the CD player. The EMT950 - it's a plug and play package; EMT-929 arm and on-board EMT phono stage (MM or MC (TSD-15) configuration). Most of the ones I owned, came from the BBC, and they were invariably fitted with a standard Ortofon OM PRO S (spherical) MM cartidge. I have had a couple with the MC board and EMT TSD15 cartridge and replaced these with the much improved TSD-15SFL (super fine line) version. This is a turntable that weighs almost 80kg in this BBC confirguration, standing on its own adjustable "legs" etc. It might be surprising to realise that this machine, fitted with the humble OM PRO S MM sounded very, very similar to one fitted with transformers and the TSD-15SFL MC, especially taking these cartridges huge difference in technicalities and price into account.
The Technics SP-10 machines in very varying configurations I've listened to at home and in other places (various cartridges, arms and plinths - sitting on various supports), all share the same sonic signature, in terms of musicality and resolution. Whatever sonic differences there are - and they are there, no doubt, of course can be attributed to these disparities, that all.
In this instance, I believe that Ivor Tiefenbrun was absolutely spot on, when he claimed that a good turntable with a cheap and cheerful cartidge would always sound better than a lesser one fitted with a very HQ/expensive one...it's that simple; you can always tell. And I for one would not recommend any "ambitious" listening tests being carried out, unless there is no doubt that the equipment is reasonably well positioned and supported. So this leads me back to the SL-1210...which I think is a very intriguing prospect with fantastic potential (even though mine is stock, and fitted with a spherical Stanton 500 :))
pure sound
19-06-2012, 09:39
:) So this leads me back to the SL-1210...which I think is a very intriguing prospect with fantastic potential (even though mine is stock, and fitted with a spherical Stanton 500 :))
Ah! Obviously not too concerned with hearing much in the way of fine detail at the end of a side then? ;)
tunein4fun
14-07-2012, 17:54
...he he...it came fitted with this cartridge and it's till on there...but not for much longer...not that I have anything against a spherical stylus per se :)
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