Celestion Ditton 15XR

[technobear]

The Gods of freecycle have struck again at Technobear Towers :D

Today a pair of unloved Celestion Ditton 15XR's have found their way here and even better - they're not teak, they're black.

They work. They have covers which need a good scrub but are otherwise OK. The cabinets have a few scuffs and scrapes but nothing that the black Simoniz won't cover I think.

http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/images/Ditton15XR-2.jpg

http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/images/Ditton15XR-1.jpg


So how do they sound? A bit of a pickle to be honest.

They are a little shouty. They clearly need damping somewhere and possibly some crossover work. The tweeter needs a damping resistor.

At the same time they are a little indistinct.

The binding posts suck.

Their worst problem is their 'now you hear it, now you don't' bass. They don't kick or punch very well. Despite the largish driver and ABR they don't do much below 50Hz. The bass also seems to have a hole in it somewhere. But worst of all is the timing. Some tracks sound like the bass line is half a beat behind which makes them sound slow. This doesn't affect all tracks mind.

Dialling in the sub helps but overall 'Ditton15XR+sub' is no better than 'JPW Gold+sub' other than having slightly better efficiency and loudness potential (neither of which are important here any more). I'm thinking the JPW's will stay on the AV system although I need to bring back the DL6's to compare as I haven't tried those with the sub yet.

Are these worth fettling? I know Mr Rexton did some work on a pair and I've saved his list but is it worth it?

They would of course be fine as radio speakers for the bedroom but they are a little large where something much smaller would suffice.

[Marco]

Well done, Chris, on landing the Dittons. Freecycle is a great thing. We often dispose of unwanted goods that way :)

However, from your description of how they sound, I suspect that something isn't right, as mine (completely unmodified) sound nothing like that. Therefore, some work may be needed on them, in order for you to hear what they're capable of, so it's your call whether you're willing to spend some dosh on fettling them or not.

All I can tell you is that when performing at their best, 15XRs sound superb, and are very much worth having :cool:

Marco.

[technobear]

Thanks for that Marco. They haven't been used in quite a while so they might need to loosen up a bit. I'll leave them on the AV system for a week and see how they do.

[DSJR]

I'm going to steer a central path here. I suspect either the tweeeter OR the bass unit crossover could do with a little tweaking - I'm thinking of the 'Choice review that showed a spike at 5khz. If this is clashing with filter slopes, this may explain the issues here but only by isolating the two drivers will you be able to ascertain if it's a bass driver being used too high, or phasing in the crossover.

The crossover itself will almost certainly need some looking at, but I'm minded to suggest NOT buying boutique components, as low-loss caps for example, may totally upset the balance - the design would have been finalised with the stock caps I feel but these may well age, especially electrolytic ones..

Lastly, in addition to some use being needed for everything to settle down again, plonking them on a shelf as in the pics is a long-term recipe for disastrous bass. I know it's temporary, but proper siting and stands will transform the bass, I promise you.

Good luck :)

There was a replacement? model called the Ditton 150 and this is one I'd like to try...

[technobear]

Hi Dave. They definitely have some frequency response anomalies at the moment. They are definitely not happy with rock. They are better with blues and girly+guitar. They are a little bit brash. This might be a result of an undamped tweeter.

I've bought my Rotel RB-06 out of hiding and this seems to be taking more control of things than the Kenwood, particularly in the bass which now seems a bit tidier. At the moment though, placed on the cabinets like you see above, the DL6's did more believable drums. The DL6's are a somewhat more recent design so I guess one might expect that.

I do have some stands and I think these will be moving upstairs where they can be used on stands.

There is definite promise here. I think a tweeter damping resistor will improve things a lot for rock - this has certainly been my past experience of that tweek.

I am certainly not going to lay out for Mundorf Silvers at this age and level of speaker. I might stretch to Supremes or Clarity Caps. I haven't look inside the 15XR's yet to see what's there. Any white ceramic sound coffins will have to be replaced with Mills though.

The little JPW Golds that I got the other day put up a surprising challenge to these though when helped by the MJ Pro 50/II. The JPW's only have one coil and one cap so I think I will replace that cap with something relatively nice and again add a damping resistor for the tweeter. I already put more pillow stuffing in the Golds and this has made them somewhat less raucous.

One little closed box I would like to try against the Gold's is the Celestion 3 if I can find a pair localish.

But I ramble :D

I will fettle these Dittons and see what happens.

[technobear]

Incidentally, a 5kHz spike would be commensurate with a half-wave of 3cm. This could be caused by reflections between the cone and the basket of the bass/mid driver. I'll be adding some felt to the basket while I'm in there.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Gods of freecycle have struck again at Technobear Towers :D

Today a pair of unloved Celestion Ditton 15XR's have found their way here and even better - they're not teak, they're black.

They work. They have covers which need a good scrub but are otherwise OK. The cabinets have a few scuffs and scrapes but nothing that the black Simoniz won't cover I think.

http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/images/Ditton15XR-2.jpg

http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/images/Ditton15XR-1.jpg


So how do they sound? A bit of a pickle to be honest.

They are a little shouty. They clearly need damping somewhere and possibly some crossover work. The tweeter needs a damping resistor.

At the same time they are a little indistinct.

The binding posts suck.

Their worst problem is their 'now you hear it, now you don't' bass. They don't kick or punch very well. Despite the largish driver and ABR they don't do much below 50Hz. The bass also seems to have a hole in it somewhere. But worst of all is the timing. Some tracks sound like the bass line is half a beat behind which makes them sound slow. This doesn't affect all tracks mind.

Dialling in the sub helps but overall 'Ditton15XR+sub' is no better than 'JPW Gold+sub' other than having slightly better efficiency and loudness potential (neither of which are important here any more). I'm thinking the JPW's will stay on the AV system although I need to bring back the DL6's to compare as I haven't tried those with the sub yet.

Are these worth fettling? I know Mr Rexton did some work on a pair and I've saved his list but is it worth it?

They would of course be fine as radio speakers for the bedroom but they are a little large where something much smaller would suffice.


Nice to hear you have some 15XR's. I think something is very wrong with the description your giving, I'll let some of the other guys speculate on what might be wrong. The x-o is a doddle to rebuild but I wouldn't putting any additional components in there. You only need to replace one cap. You also need to get or make some stands. I made some simple 11" stands from scraps of wood and chipboard from the garage (well it cleared some space) and can honestly say that I'm as happy as a happy thing with the results. Needless to say I could probably get better results with fancy stands but I dont want to spend the money on these, that has to go on the Techie and my new Celestion 44's:eyebrows: I used sheds of 6mm sorbothane and and lots of additional speaker foam to dampen then down further but I love the sound. They work best about 10-12 feet apart, a couple of foot from the back wall and maybe 6-12" from each wall side, slightly in-toed. You should get a good stereo image. Hope all this helps.

[technobear]

Yeah, the clarity of the mids seems good on vocals and the soundstage is excellent. It's drums that seem a little lacking. They are getting buried in the mix.

I just looked in the manuals for the amps. The Kenwood packs a damping factor of 40 while the Rotel musters 500. No surprise the bass has improved then :D

Shame as I'm probably going to keep the Rotel in the living room and send the Kenwood upstairs as the latter is trying to cook my Audiolab and would be better in free space.

Still, onwards...

[walpurgis]

Dave mentions the Ditton 150 as the model replacing the Ditton 15XR. Wasn't it the UL8?

[technobear]

My goodness we have some Celestial experts on this forum :respect:

[walpurgis]

'Cos I've owned them all at one time or another. Geoff.

[RichB]

Dont mind if i pull up a chair here.... see my other thread on how good my 15s sound in one system compared to the other.

Chris - your description of the shouty sound and lack of bass sounds like exactly what i was experiencing when i moved the 15s into my living room. I think these are even more picky about careful positioning than any other speaker I've owned, nonetheless I'm sticking with them as I'm convinced they are capable of greatness.

[DSJR]

Dave mentions the Ditton 150 as the model replacing the Ditton 15XR. Wasn't it the UL8?

The UL was a parallel range of variable standard we found and sort of led into the much better DL range amongst others via the final "Ditton" models I think, the 552 and 662 topping this revamped range (I couldn't accommodate some tatty 662's we traded in but the big hearted and fundamentally honest sound these and the slightly smaller 552's had was lovely). I have seen but never heard the Ditton 150 on fleabay a few times so know they exist. Flush front baffle, mesh covered tweeter? and a general modernising of the visuals. Celestions as a breed got seriously good for budget models in the late 70's onwards, and I think most of their production from this period on was good depending on box sizes needed etc.. maybe B&W were more agressive in the marketing perhaps, but celestion were better for a good while, if not as professional in getting their products "out there" until the classic SL6 series came along (huge story about these, but for another time).

[technobear]

OK, after schlepping them upstairs along with the Kenwood and a Denon DCD-610, well, what can I say? Sounds glorious! :lol:

http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/images/Ditton15XR-3.jpg

:cool:

[Wakefield Turntables]

I occasionally use my 15XR's with my Marantz CD67SE and they make quite a lovely noise. NAD & Marantz gear seem to work really well with them. Nice to seem them off the floor as well. Nice neat little setup!

[morris_minor]

I'm getting all nostalgic for my old 15XRs now :)

[DSJR]

I'm getting to like what half decent 8" drivers can do, despite supposed theoretical "advantages" in 5" or 6" ones

[Reid Malenfant]

I'm getting to like what half decent 8" drivers can do, despite supposed theoretical "advantages" in 5" or 6" ones
Paper, or pulp is still just as good (actually probably better) today as it was many moons ago :D


I think I'd still prefer to have a nice cast alloy frame as per the original 8" driver in the Ditton 15, but what the hell :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I think I'd still prefer to have a nice cast alloy frame as per the original 8" driver in the Ditton 15, but what the hell :)


Thats another whole debate :doh: I've read several articles slagging off the original cast alloy and caster stands which came with the 15's. I just made some up, not very good, but they fetch the speakers upto hopefully correct ear height and are pretty sturdy. I used an additional layer of 6mm sorbothane under the speaker to stop any vibrations getting into the speakers. The sound is great. Just wish I had a bigger room to put them in. :(

[Marco]

OK, after schlepping them upstairs along with the Kenwood and a Denon DCD-610, well, what can I say? Sounds glorious! :lol:


Result, Chris! The Dittons, for some folks, seem to be quite room-critical.

I've not experienced that yet myself, having used them in my main listening room (smallish), our lounge (medium-sized), and outside in the garden (huge) - in all instances to great effect...

Anyway, it shows that there's not a lot fundamentally wrong with your pair! :)

Marco.

[Marco]

I'm getting to like what half decent 8" drivers can do, despite supposed theoretical "advantages" in 5" or 6" ones

You should try some fifteens! ;)

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

Mr Technobear:
Those speakers are Black because someone sprayed them that colour!
The stands your using are too tall. I recommend using Atacama 'SL300' (300mm) or 'SL400' (400mm) your choice, i forgot which high Marco opted for with his '15XR's!

[Marco]

I think it was the SL-400s, dude. They work great! :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

Re 15" drivers - Oh, you don't need to tell me about them :lol:

One day, I hope the speaker world will come full circle, when a new generation of listeners will come to see how compromised little squeakers actually are, actively driven or otherwise.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Re 15" drivers - Oh, you don't need to tell me about them :lol:

One day, I hope the speaker world will come full circle, when a new generation of listeners will come to see how compromised little squeakers actually are, actively driven or otherwise.

I've been listening to the delights of some 12" via my 44's, specifically Previn conducting Holst's The Planets - Good stuff.

[Canetoad]

I opened up my ditton 15s to check the crossovers. Two inductors and a single capacitor. Can anybody confirm the value of the capacitor in the Ditton 15 speakers? It looks to me like it is 10uF as 10 is the only numeric value on it. :scratch:

[Rare Bird]

4.7uF (XR)

[Canetoad]

Thanks Andr'e. I just read your reply on the other Celestion thread. :doh:

[technobear]

Those speakers are Black because someone sprayed them that colour!

Looking at them, I think you might be right. The wood grain is still clearly visible but they are a bit matt and the places where they are scuffed could be showing teak.


The stands your using are too tall

But they're the only ones I have http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/cry2.gif

They came with the JPW Golds. Even if they were the right height, they are too insubstantial for the Dittons.

[RichB]

Mr Technobear:
The stands your using are too tall. I recommend using Atacama 'SL300' (300mm) or 'SL400' (400mm) your choice, i forgot which high Marco opted for with his '15XR's!

Well said, I've found they dont really work in my main room on the 600mm stands so I'm keeping my eyes open for a smaller pair of stands... was at a mates last night and he dug out a rather tatty Rogers HG 88 Mk2 amp with original Mullard valves still intact. Was wondering if this might make a good match for the 15s as I might make him an offer and see if it could be professionally restored.

[Reid Malenfant]

Thats another whole debate :doh: I've read several articles slagging off the original cast alloy and caster stands which came with the 15's. I just made some up, not very good, but they fetch the speakers upto hopefully correct ear height and are pretty sturdy. I used an additional layer of 6mm sorbothane under the speaker to stop any vibrations getting into the speakers. The sound is great. Just wish I had a bigger room to put them in. :(
Actually Andrew I was refering to the original bass/midrange driver in the Ditton 15, it had a cast frame unlike the driver in the XR which is stamped steel ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Actually Andrew I was refering to the original bass/midrange driver in the Ditton 15, it had a cast frame unlike the driver in the XR which is stamped steel ;)

OH BUGGER! :doh: Have you noticed mark I always seem to get things slightly wrong, it must be the old timers disease kicking in again (:wheniwasaboy:) and I've had no alcoholic lubrication yet :lol::lol:

[Canetoad]

Just to confirm that the capacitor in the original Ditton 15 is 10uF. I just checked mine using a multimeter. :eyebrows:

[Rare Bird]

4.7uF (XR)

See those two letters in brackets :eyebrows:

[Canetoad]

Yes I did Andr'e. That's why I posted for the 15. :)

[DSJR]

The Hf1300 has a fairly steep roll-in all its own, spoiled only by a 3.5kHz resonance that the BC1 crossover (for instance) just about disguises, although it's still just visible. Maybe that explains the 10uF cap? The XR dome is a more modern type and may well be extremely untidy used too low as many dome tweets are, hence the lower value cap to bring it in higher up, as Epos did with the ES14 when the bass unit changed to the one with phase plug.

[Canetoad]

I'm now wondering what to replace the puny internal wiring with. Maybe I should get a bit of TQ blue for it?

Any suggestion for a cheap solution?

[Rare Bird]

PM Bernie :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'm now wondering what to replace the puny internal wiring with. Maybe I should get a bit of TQ blue for it?

Any suggestion for a cheap solution?

Tq blue might be a bit overkill I used Teflon coated pure silver which I picked up of eBay for three quid a meter

[DSJR]

I bet the TQ will be out of fashion before too long - seems to have an awful lot of "character" as it sounds so "different" from everything else????????????? Always makes me suspicious - the VDH Wind that Marco uses just sounds like a standard speaker cable, only better in all areas, if you see what I mean.

Maplin do a 50strand instrument cable in a variety of colours. This is similar to the stuff Epos used in my ES14's, is fairly flexible and easy to solder with LMP solder. Worked for me, but you could argue that my standards are lower these days ;)

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/5761209c.jpg

[Rare Bird]

You lot don't half worry about silly things :rolleyes:

Btw: Is 'out of fashion' the same stupid meaningless term as 'long in the tooth'? :lol:

For the record i use Teflon coated Silver plated Copper wire i bought cheap & i'm glad i did :eyebrows:

[Canetoad]

I'm going to give what Andre` has suggested a go and see what improvement, if any, it makes. It's got to be better than the standard setup. :eyebrows: