SACD - Worth a go?

[The Black Adder]

Hello...

Who uses SACD here?... I've been toying with trying the format and I've heard a mates SACD player through his Quad405 system and it does seem to bring something to the party in stereo and most definately in 5.1.

Thing is I'm not in to the 5.1 systems, stereo works for me. So what are the views of this format generally in Stereo?

Cheeze

[prestonchipfryer]

I use a Denon 2900 universal player to play SACD in stereo, which is about nine years old and also plays the ill-fated DVD Audio and plays these to a high standard of fidelity. SACD, I find, is smoother than the good olde CD and definitely much more detail and a firmer, more defined bass. There are quite a few titles available, though there is a lot of classical. Take a peek at Amazon or the f-bey for titles, there will plenty of choice.

John

[Spectral Morn]

Hello...

Who uses SACD here?... I've been toying with trying the format and I've heard a mates SACD player through his Quad405 system and it does seem to bring something to the party in stereo and most definately in 5.1.

Thing is I'm not in to the 5.1 systems, stereo works for me. So what are the views of this format generally in Stereo?

Cheeze

Yes it is worth ago but the problem is finding a good SACD player.

Best transports by far are those Sony used at the start (SCD1, SCD777) but the machines sonic performance on SACD and particularly CD were not really that magical in my experience (I owned a SCD777). To make these players sing one needs to have them modified by the likes of Audiocom. The basics are great but the one negative is the fact that if the transport dies you will have major problems getting it fixed.

Marantz SA1 ok but in my experience again not great on CD but pretty good on SACD. Marantz SA11, SA15 are pretty good SACD players but again not particularly great on CD. I owned an SA11 and I sold it on pretty quick as the transport was incredibly noisy.

Marantz SA7 fantastic SACD player and pretty good CD player but again very noisy transport, while playing SACD discs. I own one and this is the second as the first ones mechanism noise was so bad I thought it would shake its self to bits :eek: This should not be the case as the mechanism looks excellent, but its noisy.

The Jenalabs version of the Marantz SA7 is apparently fantastic but I have never seen one, never mind heard one. http://www.jenalabs.com/mods/mods_custom-work.html

Esoteric, all excellent mechanisms and very good CD and SACD players.

Other machines using the Philips SACD mechanism DON'T TOUCH WITH A BARGE POLE. Reliability was terrible and they can't be fixed.

I don't know what cheaper SACD players are like.

[WOStantonCS100]

My Marantz VC-6001 plays SACDs (2 ch. & multi.) I like the fact that I can play SACD's. Gotta have options. :) I don't actively seek them out; but, it's nice to be able to play them in case I can't get something in any other format. I agree with John on the sound of SACD, in general.

I lean toward Neil's opinion of Marantz players. I actually hate mine (for a lot of reasons completely unrelated to sound) and would love to replace it with something better. I would NOT recommend it to anyone.

[The Black Adder]

Thanks for the advice guys. Great stuff.

The SA7 is way out of my budget unfortunately. :( I was looking at the Sony XA777ES but after some budget probs I had to pull out... What's the verdict on the XA777ES?... Transport probs again?

[Reid Malenfant]

Hows about a nice Denon? :D

Damn I still need to check out the HDMI connection that kind of fessed up, but I have a DVD2910 (I hope that's right) here. Will play SACD in stereo or multichannel, remote, good cosmetic condition...

I'll get back to you Joe :)

PS, haven't forgotten the SME headshell :rfl:

[AlfaGTV]

I keep a Marantz SA-15S1 mainly for the opportunity of playing SACD's.
I agree with the fact that it is better with SACD, but it doesn't have to be ashamed of it's perfomance as a CD-player either. A little grainy,but ok.

Anyways, these "mid-price" silver disc spinners are being sold for practically nothing here in Sweden. Bought mine for some 300 quid.

Give it a go! Think you'll like the SACD bit!
And mine is not noisy, ah well, not to a disturbing degree that is.

Br Mike

[howardc1951]

I've got an Onkyo DR-S501 all in one DVD/CD/receiver player which plays SACDs which I'm going to be selling in the very near future if you're interested. The transport certainly isn't noisy but how good SACDs are I can't really say as I've only got one and I only played that once on the machine out of curiosity before ripping it to wav.

[Reid Malenfant]

<snip> I only played that once on the machine out of curiosity before ripping it to wav.
That'd be the CD layer then, SACD is not rippable unless you happen to have a first generation Sony PS3 without updating it.

[The Black Adder]

PS, haven't forgotten the SME headshell :rfl:

lol... Blaaaady ell... how big is your drum?! :lol:

Cheers fella

[The Black Adder]

I've got an Onkyo DR-S501 all in one DVD/CD/receiver player which plays SACDs which I'm going to be selling in the very near future if you're interested. The transport certainly isn't noisy but how good SACDs are I can't really say as I've only got one and I only played that once on the machine out of curiosity before ripping it to wav.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks Howard

[magiccarpetride]

Yes it is worth ago but the problem is finding a good SACD player.

Best transports by far are those Sony used at the start (SCD1, SCD777) but the machines sonic performance on SACD and particularly CD were not really that magical in my experience (I owned a SCD777). To make these players sing one needs to have them modified by the likes of Audiocom. The basics are great but the one negative is the fact that if the transport dies you will have major problems getting it fixed.

Marantz SA1 ok but in my experience again not great on CD but pretty good on SACD. Marantz SA11, SA15 are pretty good SACD players but again not particularly great on CD. I owned an SA11 and I sold it on pretty quick as the transport was incredibly noisy.

Marantz SA7 fantastic SACD player and pretty good CD player but again very noisy transport, while playing SACD discs. I own one and this is the second as the first ones mechanism noise was so bad I thought it would shake its self to bits :eek: This should not be the case as the mechanism looks excellent, but its noisy.

The Jenalabs version of the Marantz SA7 is apparently fantastic but I have never seen one, never mind heard one. http://www.jenalabs.com/mods/mods_custom-work.html

Esoteric, all excellent mechanisms and very good CD and SACD players.

Other machines using the Philips SACD mechanism DON'T TOUCH WITH A BARGE POLE. Reliability was terrible and they can't be fixed.

I don't know what cheaper SACD players are like.

Any opinion on Oppo (http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-93?) Should have decent SACD playback, no?

[Spectral Morn]

Any opinion on Oppo (http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-93)? Should have decent SACD playback, no?


Alas I am out of the trade long enough now to have missed those machines, so no opinion, though a friend has a NuForce modified one. I can say it plays Blue Rays well but that's all.

[Reid Malenfant]

Any opinion on Oppo (http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-93)? Should have decent SACD playback, no?
Yes the Oppo is pretty awesome, I can't comment on the stereo playback though as I always choose the multichannel output as I can reproduce it.

Though I might have hit the 2 channel output of DSOTM (pink floyd) SACD once & it bettered the CD version by a goodly amount :)

[Darren]

I have a cheap Sony SACD player and it has always sounded superb. Paid £150 end of line. The SACDs are usually worth the extra, especially the all Dsd ones.

[dave2010]

Quite an interesting thread this. There seems to have been a resurgence of interest in SACD recently, particularly in the classical field, and there are some block buster performances of Mahler available, and even a complete boxed set (Zinman's) which can be obtained for around 50 pounds -

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-1860-1911-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/4942921

EMI recently introced their Signature series of reissues - http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/category/Choice_EMI_Signature_Collection/

I have an Oppo DV-980H player http://www.oppodigital.com/dv980h/dv980h_comp.asp , though currently I don't use it much as I don't run a multi-channel set up at present. It's not as good as some other DVD and Blu Ray players I have for the video side. I think it can do as well or better than my Marantz CD7se II when playing SACDs (obviously the Marantz doesn't do that), and if I ever get multi-channel working again it should do fine.

WIth hybrid discs being available, and some labels only issuing hybrids, then I have built up a small collection of SACDs. If there's a choice of CD or SACD then I always look at the price differential. If it's small I'll get the SACD, but there can still be a large difference for some labels.

There were a few SACD only discs from companies like Sony/CBS , which are impossible/very expensive to get - only via eBay at astronomical prices.

The inability to rip SACDs (well, it's nigh impossible ...) is a bit of a pain. The Oppo 980H can output DSD via HDMI to a suitable DSD device - but not many people have those.

Some of the discs in the recently issued Mercury box set (only 2 channel in that set) have previously been issued as SACDs, as some of the recordings were originally multi-channel (3 channel). http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mercury-Living-Presence-Boxed-Set/dp/B005XBA9Y8

I can't really comment on the quality of SACD for non classical recordings. There does seem to be some feeling that for classical music that SACD has something to offer, and gives smoother/better results than CD, though some people seem to be going straight for hi-res downloads. There may be limited availability of surround sound hi-res, which would still leave SACD as one of the preferred choices for that, although there are still a few DVD Audios available, and some people have noted that Blu Ray can do well - there are some classical issues in that format.

PS: Some series, such as the EMI Signature series, are actually older recordings. They are thought to be still worth having, as allegedly the remastering raises the SQ compared with the original CDs. I can't disagree, though they are relatively expensive at typically over £10 per disc, where the original CD or a reissue can now usually be obtained for just a few pounds.

[serendipitydawg]

I have to admit that I have been less than impressed by SACD from the outset.

I never saw any discs in the shops when the format was current and now any titles that might arouse my curiosity are ludicrous "collectors" prices.

Add to this the fact that my Pioneer so called "universal" player resolutely refused to play the SACD layer of any hybrid disc despite several firmware upgrades led me recently to stick it in a cupboard and try to forget about it. The only single layer SACD I have is the original Sony demo disc and it's the only disc my Pioneer ever succeeded in playing.

I'm never going to buy another disc spinner, so unless any kind soul gives me (for example) a cheap Blu Ray that also plays SACD my hi-rez digital future consists of downloads and PC based playback. And cheap second-hand CD's

[magiccarpetride]

The Oppo 980H can output DSD via HDMI to a suitable DSD device - but not many people have those.

I've never really gotten around to audition the SACD format. Now I'm slowly learning that this proprietary format is by nature different than any other high definition format, meaning that if you have a PCM rip of a 24/196 source, and then you play it side by side with the same source off the spinning SACD silver disc, there is a chance that the two may sound different.

If that's a fact, I must say I'm becoming curiouser and curiouser. Apparently, the digital DSD format that is native to SACD is a different beast than the familiar PCM digital format, and they allegedly get converted to analog signal using different technologies. Some people claim that this fact accounts for DSD sounding more natural, smoother, less glassy. Anyone agrees with this/disagrees? (I wish I had access to SACD playback equipment to hear for myself...)

[Spectral Morn]

Quite an interesting thread this. There seems to have been a resurgence of interest in SACD recently, particularly in the classical field, and there are some block buster performances of Mahler available, and even a complete boxed set (Zinman's) which can be obtained for around 50 pounds -

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Gustav-Mahler-1860-1911-Symphonien-Nr-1-10/hnum/4942921

EMI recently introced their Signature series of reissues - http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/category/Choice_EMI_Signature_Collection/

I have an Oppo DV-980H player http://www.oppodigital.com/dv980h/dv980h_comp.asp , though currently I don't use it much as I don't run a multi-channel set up at present. It's not as good as some other DVD and Blu Ray players I have for the video side. I think it can do as well or better than my Marantz CD7se II when playing SACDs (obviously the Marantz doesn't do that), and if I ever get multi-channel working again it should do fine.

WIth hybrid discs being available, and some labels only issuing hybrids, then I have built up a small collection of SACDs. If there's a choice of CD or SACD then I always look at the price differential. If it's small I'll get the SACD, but there can still be a large difference for some labels.

There were a few SACD only discs from companies like Sony/CBS , which are impossible/very expensive to get - only via eBay at astronomical prices.

The inability to rip SACDs (well, it's nigh impossible ...) is a bit of a pain. The Oppo 980H can output DSD via HDMI to a suitable DSD device - but not many people have those.

Some of the discs in the recently issued Mercury box set (only 2 channel in that set) have previously been issued as SACDs, as some of the recordings were originally multi-channel (3 channel). http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mercury-Living-Presence-Boxed-Set/dp/B005XBA9Y8

I can't really comment on the quality of SACD for non classical recordings. There does seem to be some feeling that for classical music that SACD has something to offer, and gives smoother/better results than CD, though some people seem to be going straight for hi-res downloads. There may be limited availability of surround sound hi-res, which would still leave SACD as one of the preferred choices for that, although there are still a few DVD Audios available, and some people have noted that Blu Ray can do well - there are some classical issues in that format.

PS: Some series, such as the EMI Signature series, are actually older recordings. They are thought to be still worth having, as allegedly the remastering raises the SQ compared with the original CDs. I can't disagree, though they are relatively expensive at typically over £10 per disc, where the original CD or a reissue can now usually be obtained for just a few pounds.


Never seen or even heard of one of those. I was under the impression Marantz only made a small number and that was it, no se no mk2. I would love to see a photo please. I have a CD7.

[BTH K10A]

If you can find one, the Pioneer PD-D9-J is very good, not only with SACD but CD also. It has one of the best dacs wolfson made.

http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/archive/PD-D9-J/index.html

Forget surround sound as with music it never sounds natural to my ears.

As for SACD's, I always use this site. http://www.sa-cd.net/

[Haselsh1]

I have a cheap Sony SACD player and it has always sounded superb. Paid £150 end of line. The SACDs are usually worth the extra, especially the all Dsd ones.

I may well have the same Sony player and it is an excellent little thing. SACD's are just so superior to CD's especially the Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon.

[WOStantonCS100]

I've never really gotten around to audition the SACD format. Now I'm slowly learning that this proprietary format is by nature different than any other high definition format, meaning that if you have a PCM rip of a 24/196 source, and then you play it side by side with the same source off the spinning SACD silver disc, there is a chance that the two may sound different.

If that's a fact, I must say I'm becoming curiouser and curiouser. Apparently, the digital DSD format that is native to SACD is a different beast than the familiar PCM digital format, and they allegedly get converted to analog signal using different technologies. Some people claim that this fact accounts for DSD sounding more natural, smoother, less glassy. Anyone agrees with this/disagrees? (I wish I had access to SACD playback equipment to hear for myself...)

I have been taken to task recently, on this very forum, for trying to explain the differences between high res formats and CD, despite the fact that I don't despise CD. However, you are right. DSD encoding differs from PCM in significant and distinct ways, regardless of how it's decoded.

I did my best not to speak off the top of my head and to speak from the experience of having a machine that records in both DSD and PCM and running comparisons.

Provided all things are equal (ie. an analog source with decent mastering), I believe, as has been more than hinted at by the previous posters, you'll find both high res PCM and DSD very pleasing if not a revelation of sorts. Indeed, DSD will most likely sound "smoother".

SACD is just a carrier of single-rate DSD (1-bit/2.8MHz), just like CD is just a carrier of 16/44.1 PCM. So, it really depends on your lifestyle whether you want to dip into the pool with hardware (a player) or just software (PC based).

I prefer 24/192 PCM right now, most likely because that's the highest resolution I can get on the Tascam DV-RA1000HD (no double-rate DSD 1-bit/5.6MHz). I suspect that I would prefer double-rate DSD over 24/192 PCM, just as I prefer single-rate DSD over 24/96 PCM. DSD just sounds a little more "analogous" to my ears. It's also an oversimplification to say that DSD is just multiplying the word length and sample rates to get the PCM equivalent. For one, as Ed M. explains, there is the issue of "zero crossings".

[allsorts]

Pioneer PD-D6 2 channel player has been my source for a couple of years. Smaller brother to previously mentioned PD9. Same looks.
One thing I've noticed about sacds is that the cd layer seems to sound better when i transfer it to the mac mini than the original cd version. Is it because its been remastered or do they just take a bit more time and effort with the disc?
Beware though that sacds can't really improve poor original recordings.
Lots of 2nd hand sacds (classical and jazz) available via Amazon to get started and sa-cd net is a great site for listings and reviews.

[The Black Adder]

Some great advice here... Many thanks.

I'm interested in either a Marantz or the Pioneer.. I must admit the dual Wolfson DAC's in the Pioneer looks interesting...

The Oppo would actually suit my needs most though as I'm in the market for a Bluray player too but I need some more information on the 93 simply because it's a box that does lots but in my experience 'all in one' boxes are generally only made to do one job best.. So if anyone has any more info on this player that would be groovy and I'll dig it the most.. :)

[Reid Malenfant]

I'd love to tell you about the 93 Joe, trouble is I have the 95 :D

[The Black Adder]

...lol... or the 95... :)

[Reid Malenfant]

In a nutshell it has the best BD playback I have seen picture wise. It does a stunning job of upscaling DVDs, but I guess that the £2K processor I bought for £400 beats it on that score.

It's one of the only players that fully decodes DTS-MA & Dolby True HD, just about everything else gives you the lossy part of the audio stream.

It's at least as good playing CDs as any CD player I have heard costing over £600.

It totally obliterates my Denon DVD2930 in the case of SACD playback :eyebrows:

It plays every format on a disc that I have here, JPEG CDs, MP3 CDs, SACD & DVD Audio & does a fantastic job. On top of that there is a nice E- SATA socket on the back that can be connected to an external HDD & it can stream FLAC & other stuff, making it a streamer.

I haven't tried the latter yet, but I aim to before very long.


One of the very best investments I have ever made, both movie & music wise. It was an Xmas treat to myself last year, I haven't & quite probably won't ever regret it :D

[Darren]

Yea but can you ever take something called Oppo seriously?

I dont care how well it performs...... Its silly

[Reid Malenfant]

Yea but can you ever take something called Oppo seriously?

I dont care how well it performs...... Its silly
:lol:

What's a name... How about Krell? Named from a sci fi film due to the almost infinite power they possessed :eyebrows:

Cambridge Audio, now there is an inspiration. I guess it sounds like the choir in the Kings chapel :scratch:

DPA, wassat about :scratch:


Yes, Oppo is very silly indeed ;)

[The Black Adder]

In a nutshell it has the best BD playback I have seen picture wise. It does a stunning job of upscaling DVDs, but I guess that the £2K processor I bought for £400 beats it on that score.

It's one of the only players that fully decodes DTS-MA & Dolby True HD, just about everything else gives you the lossy part of the audio stream.

It's at least as good playing CDs as any CD player I have heard costing over £600.

It totally obliterates my Denon DVD2930 in the case of SACD playback :eyebrows:

It plays every format on a disc that I have here, JPEG CDs, MP3 CDs, SACD & DVD Audio & does a fantastic job. On top of that there is a nice E- SATA socket on the back that can be connected to an external HDD & it can stream FLAC & other stuff, making it a streamer.

I haven't tried the latter yet, but I aim to before very long.


One of the very best investments I have ever made, both movie & music wise. It was an Xmas treat to myself last year, I haven't & quite probably won't ever regret it :D

Bloody ell.. sounds perfect... Just seen the price though... hmm, might have to do the local CO-OP... Hold on... be back in a sec, just need to find some stockings... :stalks:

[Darren]

:lol:

What's a name... How about Krell? Named from a sci fi film due to the almost infinite power they possessed :eyebrows:

Cambridge Audio, now there is an inspiration. I guess it sounds like the choir in the Kings chapel :scratch:

DPA, wassat about :scratch:


Yes, Oppo is very silly indeed ;)

But Oppo is the most silly isn't it? It sounds like something frogs do.

[The Black Adder]

Sounds better if you say it backwards...

[Darren]

Sounds better if you say it backwards...

Boom! Boom!

Very poo-er Adder!

[MartinT]

My Ayre plays SACD and DVD-A superbly, as well as good old ordinary CDs. I like the hi-res formats very much, but as said many times it's really down to the recording. Some SACDs sound outstanding, others barely better than the CD. Definitely worth having so that you have a choice of media.

[dave2010]

Re DVD/SACD players such as the Oppos - one "problem" is that you usually have to have the TV on in order to navigate the discs. Some users might not mind that too much, and obviously it makes sense for watching DVDs.

Our TV makes a slight noise - not usually a problem when watching - but if keeping noise levels down is important then we'd perhaps have to turn the TV off after having set the discs running. It is possible to navigate without the TV, but can be trickier.

Also "having" to couple the DVD/SACD player to a TV increases the cost, and also the space requirements.

If some manufacturer were to make such a player which could be controlled remotely via a network (maybe some do already?), then that might get round this problem.

[prestonchipfryer]

Usually playing DVD-Audio you would need to be connected to a TV/monitor to access the menus for surround-sound/two-channel play-back, etc. With SACD, well these play like normal CDs.

The only two DVD-Audio discs that I have which don't need to be accessed for content are an Elvis Presley 'greatest hits' (which sounds superb) and The Doobie Brothers The Captain and Me, which has one side as CD and the other as DVD-A.

[MartinT]

The Ayre does DVD-A navigation without a TV (there is no video output at all, it's a pure audio player), although it varies with discs and some disc vendors made it very hard.

[The Black Adder]

The Ayre is a beauty but way out of my budget unfortunately... :(

[daytona600]

love sacd myself 2ch & 5.1 pity non classical selection so poor with no new releases

[simon g]

I must admit to having been surprised at just how good SACD can be. I bought a CD/SACD player to give the format a go and I'm very much a convert. My general impreesion is of a more fluid, less grainy sound. There's often (apparent) additional detail, but without that detail making the music too forward, if that makes any sense at all to those who are reading this!

The trouble is that SACDs are often very expensive, although this isn't always the case. You also need to be aware that many SACDs feature a different mastering (from the CD version) so will, for that reason alone, sound different.

As to players, well I know we all tend to recommend the equipment we own and use ourselves, so why should I be different? :)

The Marantz Ki Pearl Lite is really a very good player indeed, both on CD and SACD. It also offers two digital inputs (& a USB) so can be a 'digital hub' as it were. These are available at not silly money. Built like brick outhouses, backed by a class worlwide organisation. It's mechanically quiet in operation. Looks very classy. Much better on CD and SACD than my Yamaha S2700, which was £1,000 back in the day

[Audioman]

Usually playing DVD-Audio you would need to be connected to a TV/monitor to access the menus for surround-sound/two-channel play-back, etc. With SACD, well these play like normal CDs.

The only two DVD-Audio discs that I have which don't need to be accessed for content are an Elvis Presley 'greatest hits' (which sounds superb) and The Doobie Brothers The Captain and Me, which has one side as CD and the other as DVD-A.

With the Denon universal players you can set the basics for audio only playback (2 channel) by temporarily connecting to tv via scart. Audio content on DVDAs can then be accessed via the remote. Rather more fiddly than CD/SACD that's all.

[Ali Tait]

In a nutshell it has the best BD playback I have seen picture wise. It does a stunning job of upscaling DVDs, but I guess that the £2K processor I bought for £400 beats it on that score.

It's one of the only players that fully decodes DTS-MA & Dolby True HD, just about everything else gives you the lossy part of the audio stream.

It's at least as good playing CDs as any CD player I have heard costing over £600.

It totally obliterates my Denon DVD2930 in the case of SACD playback :eyebrows:

It plays every format on a disc that I have here, JPEG CDs, MP3 CDs, SACD & DVD Audio & does a fantastic job. On top of that there is a nice E- SATA socket on the back that can be connected to an external HDD & it can stream FLAC & other stuff, making it a streamer.

I haven't tried the latter yet, but I aim to before very long.


One of the very best investments I have ever made, both movie & music wise. It was an Xmas treat to myself last year, I haven't & quite probably won't ever regret it :D

I'd be very interested how it does as a streamer Mark.

[Audioman]

love sacd myself 2ch & 5.1 pity non classical selection so poor with no new releases

Look up the MFSL and Analogue Productions catalogues.

[MartinT]

...and Telarc.

[WOStantonCS100]

I just finished reading several interviews with Tom Jung (DMP, etc.). There's another guy who started out with PCM digital in "the wee hours" of it's infancy and is now so far committed and entrenched with SACD/DSD that you couldn't pull him out with a 10-ton crane.