View Full Version : Looking to buy: ATC SCM 10 or 20
alexthemusicbloke
27-05-2012, 08:58
Hey Guys,
I'm looking to get a pair of ATC SCM 10 or 20s (passive stand-mount versions) for a good price.
I'm trying to nail down an offer first before I sell my current speakers, but can only do the trade after I've sold what I have at the moment (which shouldn't take very long).
Any offers would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Have you got an amp like the MC2 for sale here to power them with? Anything less than a Quad 606 will be a disaster - been there and done it!!!!!!!!!!!
ATC10's don't go very loud either, despite needing as many old fashioned Watts as you can give them, even at low levels. The 20's I had really struggled with a 100WPC amp driving them and even the 150W AVI mono's had their work cut out to remove the two dimensional flatness I thought was all in the speakers. Going to the 250WPC stereo one they did for a while woke them up nicely:)
Good luck and hope noone's been at them before you receive them..
Wakefield Turntables
27-05-2012, 15:56
You need a decent power amplifier for ATC stuff, bigger the better in my experience.
alexthemusicbloke
27-05-2012, 20:10
Cheers guys. I actually already have access to some pretty big amps although (gulp) I'll admit they are PA amps. One of those though (a Yamaha P2500S) is actually a surprisingly good sounding amp.
The amp I will use in the meantime though is a B&O Beomaster 6500. It's the only amp I have (amongst many) that could keep control over my B&W DM7s, which also needed shedloads of power before they'd do anything, even at lower volumes.
Looking at either Hafler or Bryston in the long run though.
Reid Malenfant
27-05-2012, 20:15
Looking at either Hafler or Bryston in the long run though.
Out of the two... Bryston & make it a big one :D The 300W per channel amps will do, don't worry about overloading them, they'll take it all as long as it's clean power :)
I agree with the others, these things need a goodly amount of power to bring them to life. I also happen to own SCM20SL ;)
DM7's are only fit for collectors, so don't worry about them (they're horrible and we couldn't sell them at the time!)
Adam A7's are pretty darned good I think, so why downgrade to a hard-to-drive PASSIVE speaker that struggles to get going with most amps?
The Yamaha is regarded very highly I believe and apparently is proper HiFi grade, unlike many of the cheaper high power amps out there.
Good luck, and of you can find some 20's with SL drivers, so much the better - and I have heard the difference and owned the 20SL Pro's which were active models as well as my original ATC's, a red lacquer pair of 20's from 1992...
hoopsontoast
28-05-2012, 07:01
Good luck, the SCM10's are very good, little more refined than the newer SCM7/11 and 19. Never heard an SCM20, would like to though.
I think it really depends on the amount of power, depends on how loud you want to listen, I used the SCM10's with a T-Amp in a small room, did much better than a lower end Sony 50wpc Integrated and the Bantam Gold.
The 10 and original 20 sounded very alike, as they should, with the 20 being a bigger version in sonics.
By the way, a Beomaster 6500 would be great at driving old 4 ohm Linn speakers, but I fear it'll be underpowered and "weak" into ATC's.
Why change the Adams? I know I'm banging on about it, but PLEASE don't do it "because you can," unless these really don't suit.
alexthemusicbloke
28-05-2012, 07:25
Two issues have been doing my head in with the Adams recently:
One is the slight midrange 'push' they have. I love it for listening, but I've been mixing a lot of jazz recently, and have quite a few big recording & mixing jobs coming up where I really could do with a more neutral midband.
Also, the Adams have a midbass hump which is quite irritating, and has been throwing off the low-end of my mixes all the time I've been mixing on them - I just can't get used to it.
I love the Adams to listen on though. I had actually considered selling my Rotel/B&W 5.1 setup instead of the Adams, and putting the Adams in the lounge. The Adams are also useful on location too I suppose.
As a student though, I feel kinda guilty that I'm giving myself these options! Not sure I deserve good gear like this!
Bollix - EVERYONE deserves good audio gear if well reproduced music is where you want to be.
Thanks for sharing your vibes on the Adams. If you can make it to 20's, and preferably the SL ones because they seem to be clearer at lower levels and have definite distortion reducing advantages, you should find them right up your boulevard. The later tweeters seem better too. The Yamaha should be a great amp for them (another plug for the MC2 though) and one of Jerry's Parasound amps could be looked into as well one day :)
Have a look here under "naked HiFi." I've owned 20's and am custodian of a good pair of LS5/9's -
http://www.mhennessy1.f9.co.uk/atc/index.htm
alexthemusicbloke
28-05-2012, 17:22
Ah, I have stumbled across that page numerous times! Very informative!
I will use the Yamaha in the time being, but hope to go up to something better in the future.
I'm aiming towards the 20. The 20SL will almost certainly be beyond my stretch (looking at spending under £1k, and annoyed that I have missed some amazing deals in the past).
Reid Malenfant
28-05-2012, 17:25
You should be able to pick up a pair of SCM20SL on ebay for less than £1K, a friend of mine got a pair in as new condition for about £680 a year or so back.
He did sell them at a profit though admittedly, but they still sold for a good bit less than £1K ;)
alexthemusicbloke
28-05-2012, 23:23
You should be able to pick up a pair of SCM20SL on ebay for less than £1K, a friend of mine got a pair in as new condition for about £680 a year or so back.
He did sell them at a profit though admittedly, but they still sold for a good bit less than £1K ;)
Ah fab, well I haven't really been looking that long, although I do feel like I've been into the darkest corners of the internet trying to find a pair for sale at the moment - there just don't seem to be any for sale at the moment. Glad to know the SCM20SL may well be within my budget though.
I take it all the SL models were all bi-wireable too? That's a big bonus for me.
I also understand the x-overs are very simple, an L-pad for the tweeter, impedance flattening and the filters? I guess this leaves the possibility of active powering in the future with a simple crossover bypass...
hoopsontoast
29-05-2012, 07:30
Some info on the SCM20-
http://www.mhennessy1.f9.co.uk/atc/
My old SCM10's
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6113/6328852217_89f192ab24.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6328852217/)
12 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6328852217/) by hoopsontoast (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr
and the SCM10 crossover (note the same board)
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6222161033_c3ef43659b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6222161033/)
IMAG0088 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6222161033/) by hoopsontoast (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr
And the actual values-
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6117/6222254989_07c998aaf0.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6222254989/)
SCM10 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hoopsontoast/6222254989/) by hoopsontoast (http://www.flickr.com/people/hoopsontoast/), on Flickr
As Mark says on his site, the 20SL's he still uses are "BUY - wired" This was done PURELY for market reasons since the crossover was made to absolutely minimise any possible interaction between the two halves of the crossover, hence the lovely layout on the board as shown above.
Brian (Labarum) has repeatedly pointed me towards the sub £1K Mackie actives, which had a good review in SOS
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep07/articles/mackie_hr824mk2.htm
Both the 8" and 6" models seemed very well liked, and having heard a large three way AEW set a few years ago (designers share same technical gene pool), I'd love to hear a pair.
Just my opinion, but I can't push the SCM20SL model over the previous one hard enough. The old ones need some rowing along to overcome high inertia and overdamping in the driver (those cones with coils are really heavy) and anything to reduce distortion as the SL mod does is a good thing IMO. The extra sense of air and space in the soundstage was very much appreciated I felt and it was one reason why I jumped at the chance of a pair of 20SL Pro actives some years ago. Thing is, and in all seriousness, passive models have moved on too and my 20SL pros in comparison with some then new Harbeth P3ESR's were an eye opener, the latter not going as loud in the bass obviously, but as good or better everywhere else - cough - especially in timbre and "expression" in the WAY instruments are played (horrible words but I can't express it any other way) ..
If you can, try to get a listen to the mackies, and maybe read the SOS review of the Adam A7X, which I think goes into the mods done from your model? to the X version..
twelvebears
29-05-2012, 19:41
Pair of SCM19s for £995 from the nice chaps and Audio Emotion here:
http://www.audioemotion.co.uk/pre_owned.php
alexthemusicbloke
29-05-2012, 21:07
As Mark says on his site, the 20SL's he still uses are "BUY - wired" This was done PURELY for market reasons since the crossover was made to absolutely minimise any possible interaction between the two halves of the crossover, hence the lovely layout on the board as shown above.
Brian (Labarum) has repeatedly pointed me towards the sub £1K Mackie actives, which had a good review in SOS
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep07/articles/mackie_hr824mk2.htm
Both the 8" and 6" models seemed very well liked, and having heard a large three way AEW set a few years ago (designers share same technical gene pool), I'd love to hear a pair.
To be honest, I am not a fan of the Mackies. I know them well and struggle to like them. My mixes do not translate, I find they are very difficult to get the most out of when it comes to positioning, and there's nothing about the sound that makes me go 'wow'. They have a tendency of making rubbish recordings sound a little bit less rubbish, and amazing recordings sounding somewhat mediocre.
Just my experiences with them. I've used both the 6" and the 8".
Just my opinion, but I can't push the SCM20SL model over the previous one hard enough. The old ones need some rowing along to overcome high inertia and overdamping in the driver (those cones with coils are really heavy) and anything to reduce distortion as the SL mod does is a good thing IMO. The extra sense of air and space in the soundstage was very much appreciated I felt and it was one reason why I jumped at the chance of a pair of 20SL Pro actives some years ago. Thing is, and in all seriousness, passive models have moved on too and my 20SL pros in comparison with some then new Harbeth P3ESR's were an eye opener, the latter not going as loud in the bass obviously, but as good or better everywhere else - cough - especially in timbre and "expression" in the WAY instruments are played (horrible words but I can't express it any other way) ..
I have only heard Harbeth briefly, and thought they were superb. Very luscious, easy to listen to midband and very musical. I got the feeling the low frequencies were somewhat over-exaggerated though. Great for listening on, but again, not necessarily the best to mix down on.
I guess what I love about the ATC sound is it's 'blandness' (not in a bad way). To my ears, the ATCs impart very little on the sound - what you hear is what's going into the speaker (assuming your room is good). For mixing down on, this is just what you need.
If you can, try to get a listen to the mackies, and maybe read the SOS review of the Adam A7X, which I think goes into the mods done from your model? to the X version..
I've also heard the A7X and they're certainly more neutral than the A7, startlingly flat across their frequency response. However, harmonic distortion and time-domain response in the lower frequencies is not as good again as some of the better monitors out there (although the A7Xs are right up there at the price as some of the best I've heard). The tiny A3X is actually an incredibly impressive little speaker!
Pair of SCM19s for £995 from the nice chaps and Audio Emotion here:
http://www.audioemotion.co.uk/pre_owned.php
Cheers, but I'm really looking for the 20s I think. I'm sure the 19s are also great though!
The Harbs I was really thinking of for your purpose would have been the Monitor 30's, since the bass is more like the ATC's in balance with the midband. Cost would be prohibitive though, as they don't come up used often and even old HL's are going for Spendor Collector money now. Used in free space in a typical domestic room, the bass is fine and not boomy or prominant, unless you're comparing it with little ones with little or no bass power and/or extension - and my lips are now well sealed on that one ;)
P.S. The mackies were the mk2 versions reviewed, which have been tweaked in all the areas you found them wanting. If it's the mk2's you're referring to, I know someone who would like to know please, as he's considering some to replace his tiny passives in his UK base...
alexthemusicbloke
30-05-2012, 18:50
I haven't heard the mk2 Mackies, but to be honest, my track record with Mackie has been pretty bad. I've had the misfortune of using some of their mixers (some horrendously poor build quality and engineering in general), PA speakers (can't get away from them, but they're deeply unpleasant), and of course the studio monitors.
The control surfaces are pretty good, but still, the Mackie brand is something I tend to steer well clear of.
twelvebears
30-05-2012, 20:46
I've owned a pair of SL20s myself and really liked them. Particularly good when paired with a quality sub and an amp with loads of watts.
The old reason I sold them was because I came across a s/h pair of Sonus Faber Extremas.
If you do find a pair for less than £1k I don't think you'll be disappointed.
+1, especially with the careful description of the OP's needs :)
Thanks for the Mackie info too :)
Reid Malenfant
30-05-2012, 20:52
I've owned a pair of SL20s myself and really liked them. Particularly good when paired with a quality sub and an amp with loads of watts.
The old reason I sold them was because I came across a s/h pair of Sonus Faber Extremas.
If you do find a pair for less than £1k I don't think you'll be disappointed.
That's a pretty good reason, I hope you had a man enough amp to drive them :D
The SCM20SL is good for 40Hz reproduction without a problem imo. They are very surprising considering the size of them. If you happen to wonder where all the weight is coming from, take a look at the magnetic assembly of the bass/mid & the thickness of the magnetic top plate :eek:
It's not that different from one part of a set of olympic weights :eyebrows:
alexthemusicbloke
30-05-2012, 21:10
That's a pretty good reason, I hope you had a man enough amp to drive them :D
The SCM20SL is good for 40Hz reproduction without a problem imo. They are very surprising considering the size of them. If you happen to wonder where all the weight is coming from, take a look at the magnetic assembly of the bass/mid & the thickness of the magnetic top plate :eek:
It's not that different from one part of a set of olympic weights :eyebrows:
Oh I know it's ridiculous, but it seems everything about ATC essentially involves crazy over-engineering, but that, I like!
alexthemusicbloke
05-06-2012, 01:25
Bump, just in case anybody is looking!
My mate has a pair of SCM12. I think they were more or less the same as the 20s from what he said. I'll ask if he still wants to sell if you're interested.
Umm, no, their nothing like the 20's I'm afraid - that's why they're so much cheaper :)
Not to knock the 12's or any from that series, but the 20's are hopelessly over-engineered and as said above, that's part of the charm, even if the end result is a bit tractor like - Billy Woodman was a fan of tractor engineering and had a small collection at one time :)
By the way, the bass on 20's may go down smoothly to 40Hz, but there's little energy there in all honesty, a characteristic of ALL small boxes, no matter who makes them or the fanciful spun out claims of certain manufacturers, and the bass just cannot "breathe" as it can with a GOOD larger speaker - I have a "thing" at the moment about people shouting at me that speakers with curtailed bass are actually "correct" and that anything with more extension and power is actually booming for a small but oft repeated variety of reasons:(
Ok, sorry. I think what he actually said was, according to ATC bloke, they were closer to the quality of 20s than the 11s that superceeded them.
alexthemusicbloke
06-06-2012, 09:27
The bass-lightness isn't something I'm worried about. More importantly, they need to have a smooth roll-off which makes it easy to judge the low-end. Currently, my A7s begin to roll off rather suddenly around the bottom half-octave of an upright bass (despite what the spec sheets might say).
I'm also a big fan of sealed cabinets, significantly faster bass and in the case of over-damped designs, significantly reduced harmonic distortion.
I can name a few porty boxes where the port doesn't "sound" at all, including ATC's bigger models where next to nothing came out of them :)
The 20's will definitely do what you want. I sold a number of these into various rooms and a notable one was a "concrete box" in a flat which was the worst room I think I've ever heard. They coped amazingly well in here and the client bought them.
alexthemusicbloke
06-06-2012, 17:33
I can name a few porty boxes where the port doesn't "sound" at all, including ATC's bigger models where next to nothing came out of them :)
Oh yes that's of course the case, but I meant most of the smaller ones. I've heard very few compact ported boxes where I thought the low-end was any good.
The 20's will definitely do what you want. I sold a number of these into various rooms and a notable one was a "concrete box" in a flat which was the worst room I think I've ever heard. They coped amazingly well in here and the client bought them.
I think I've found a pair. There's a studio in London selling some. They look to be showing some signs of use however, with a few knocks and bangs here and there, especially on the baffle from what I can tell with the image I've seen so far.
Does anybody know what material the front baffle is made out of, and how easy it'd be to touch-up?
Reid Malenfant
06-06-2012, 17:36
It's made of either MDF or HDF, it attaches via a load of Allen bolts, so it's easy to remove it. Get some filler on it, sand it down & respray with a satin black finish & bob's your dads brother :)
alexthemusicbloke
06-06-2012, 18:27
Fab, sounds easy enough! I haven't really had much experience with woodwork, but that's pretty straightforward!
Cheers!
I'm sure the likes of Russ Collinson can take care of the boxes for reasonable money should you desire to restore them and dismantling/reassembly isn't difficult apart from the heavy drivers...
As Mark says, the front baffles are MDF I think, simply because overtightening the fixing bolts causes splits in the paint due to the crushing of the material. ATC if anything, never tightened things up enough and on my 100A's, I could loosen the flush mounted tweeter bolts with my fingertips. You don't need to go mad, but a gentle touch does everything with these...
alexthemusicbloke
03-07-2012, 10:04
Update - I'm now listening to a pair of SCM 20SLs, and my god are they amazing! Utterly transparent, incredible midrange space, unnacented but sparkling highs and low end unlike any other standmount I've heard. Spectacular! Just need to upgrade the rest of my system now! :ner:
Reid Malenfant
03-07-2012, 16:38
Glad you like them :) They are rather surprising in the bottom end, aren't they :D
1000 apologies for my terrible memory. Spoke to my mate the other day and he reminded me that it was the SCM19 that the man at ATC compared favourably to his SCM12s.
Anyway glad you're enjoying the 20s.
alexthemusicbloke
04-07-2012, 06:18
Well thanks for everyone's help anyway!
The low end takes some getting used to, complete lack of bass bloom or 'thickness' - it's some of the tightest and cleanest I've ever heard. Very deep too when the information is there on the recording.
Don't forget the slightly lifted upper mid on almost all passive ATC's these days. Combined with the taut bass in sealed box configuration, it means close to wall mounting is recommended fo flatten things out a bit :)
alexthemusicbloke
06-07-2012, 19:06
They're spaced about 80cm from the rear wall, maybe I'll post pictures some point soon. I'm happy with the low end as it is though - surprisingly well behaved. I need to sort out some issues in the lower mids, although these aren't that bad. I have some treatment going up on the walls in the next week or two, for which I'll be doing some measurements...
So far my housemates and I have spent a considerable amount of time listening (end of the Uni semester you see). One is very into his HiFi and the other is a massive jazz head (been listening to tonnes of ECM recordings) so they're getting some great use.
We're tring to fill the room up with as much vinyl as possible just to add absorptive mass...
Alex - glad you are liking the 20's :)
After having been impressed with a pair of SCM 11's, I've just bought a pair of SCM 20SL's. I'm currently driving them with a humble Marantz 6010KI (50 WPC), but I am soon to acquire an ATC CA2 / P1 combo, which should help things along a bit.
Even with the Marantz, I am very pleased with the sound I am getting. The lack of mid-bass bloom is a real ear opener! With the right recording, it can genuinely sound like the speakers are hooked up to a feed from a live band in another room. Incredibly realistic.
Looking forward to hearing what the ATC amps will bring to the party :)
Are you still enjoying your 20's?
Lefty
I've used ATC 20's with lower powered amps and of course it works, but the clipping performance of the driving amp is shown up in sharp relief to be sure. The more hundred watts you can give them the better in all honesty, especially on long held piano, choral music and vocals...
I'm hatching a plan to acquire more Watts ;)
Lefty
I think and hope the ATC's will thank you for it :)
You were not wrong - now the proud owner of an ATC CA2 / P1 combo. (I move fast)
An immediate and obvious improvement. These 20SL's are lovely :)
Lefty
alexthemusicbloke
13-08-2012, 18:34
Alex - glad you are liking the 20's :)
After having been impressed with a pair of SCM 11's, I've just bought a pair of SCM 20SL's. I'm currently driving them with a humble Marantz 6010KI (50 WPC), but I am soon to acquire an ATC CA2 / P1 combo, which should help things along a bit.
Even with the Marantz, I am very pleased with the sound I am getting. The lack of mid-bass bloom is a real ear opener! With the right recording, it can genuinely sound like the speakers are hooked up to a feed from a live band in another room. Incredibly realistic.
Looking forward to hearing what the ATC amps will bring to the party :)
Are you still enjoying your 20's?
Lefty
Of course! My ears aren't getting at all tired of them - superb every time I listen to them! In fact I'm so impressed, I'm looking to buy a used pair of SCM 7s (probably the older MK1 version, although MK2 if I can afford it) for my bedroom. I've got a Beomaster 4400 they can sit on the end of.
If anybody has some SCM7s they'd be willing to part with for as little as possible (I'm a student you see, and would need to sell other bits of gear before I could afford them), then I may well be willing to part with some cash!
Cheers,
Alex
hoopsontoast
13-08-2012, 20:30
Both the Mk2 SCM7 and SCM10 can be had for £300 or under if you are lucky :)
Big fan of both.
Of course! My ears aren't getting at all tired of them - superb every time I listen to them! In fact I'm so impressed, I'm looking to buy a used pair of SCM 7s (probably the older MK1 version, although MK2 if I can afford it) for my bedroom. I've got a Beomaster 4400 they can sit on the end of.
If anybody has some SCM7s they'd be willing to part with for as little as possible (I'm a student you see, and would need to sell other bits of gear before I could afford them), then I may well be willing to part with some cash!
Cheers,
Alex
I've been looking for a nice Beomaster 4400, but the damned thing's too wide and as for the prices these now go for :eek: Still a great amp with top rate tuner for free and one of B&O's best from when they made proper traditional HiFi products
alexthemusicbloke
14-08-2012, 09:05
Both the Mk2 SCM7 and SCM10 can be had for £300 or under if you are lucky :)
Big fan of both.
I need something which will fit on the shelf above my iMac and doesn't weigh too much, as the shelf isn't the strongest. Hence the SCM 7 is ideal. If a super-cheap pair of 10s arrive, I'll probably jump on them, but ££ is tight at the moment (yet I'm still buying more speakers?!).
I've been looking for a nice Beomaster 4400, but the damned thing's too wide and as for the prices these now go for :eek: Still a great amp with top rate tuner for free and one of B&O's best from when they made proper traditional HiFi products
They are rather large! Can't say I've been keeping an eye on prices recently - I bought a 'brand-new, boxed' one which had sat forgotten in the basement of a store which used to be a Bang & Olufsen dealership back in the late 70s. I think it has been on display at some point as there is a price tag still on the power cord, but I paid £100 for it! Needs a bit of attention at the moment though as it keeps cutting out for a fraction of a second - an issue with the speaker protection circuits I think.
Superb sounding amplifier though, on the laid-back side of things, but very, very tight, big low-end and beautiful three-dimensional imaging and very comfortable to listen to and non-fatiguing. I can listen to this amp for hours on end with the right speakers on the end of it.
It sounds great with the 20s, but just doesn't have enough power on tap to drive them up to a decent level (and I do sometimes enjoy making good use of my volume control). Also as I use the 20s as a mixing tool, the 4400 isn't neutral enough...
The 4400 removed the IMD the 3000 could suffer from, but power aside, in fine fettle it should be quite neutral I think. All these old Beomasters were designed to drive 4 ohm loads as standard, so had an advantage from the off. I loved the 4000 I used as a tuner and phono stage and the 4400 was a genuine development of that.
By the way, I understand the 20's are more of a 5 to 6 ohm speaker, especially in the midrange, so another reason to use big amps.
alexthemusicbloke
14-08-2012, 12:21
Yes, dropping to around 6z in the midrange I believe. My current amp (Yamaha P2500s) can run down to 2z loads, although I'm looking at a Hypex based amplifier at the moment as I've been offered a very good deal on one, which I can try before I pull the trigger. The SCM7s will have to come later if I decide to go with this.
The SCM20s aren't actually a 'difficult' load. The impedance curve is not as extreme as many, and the phase angle is very good across it's frequency band. They're very well behaved speakers, just really quite amazingly inefficient.
Agreed. On the Speakerplans site (the amp-internalls thread I think), the Yamaha amp you have is rated highly for HiFi use I think. have you ever used any of the HH Mos-Fet amps ever? I'm told they're a bit hard and relentless, but would love another opinion :)
hoopsontoast
14-08-2012, 13:01
Jerry had one of those Yamaha P7000 amps IIRC.
alexthemusicbloke
14-08-2012, 13:49
Agreed. On the Speakerplans site (the amp-internalls thread I think), the Yamaha amp you have is rated highly for HiFi use I think. have you ever used any of the HH Mos-Fet amps ever? I'm told they're a bit hard and relentless, but would love another opinion :)
I haven't, although I've had some experience using other amplifiers intended for PA reinforcement to drive monitors, amongst them MC2 (superb amplifiers), Thomann TA1400 (amazing for the price, although noisy and somewhat flat at the top end) and some PowerSoft models, although I've had very mixed experiences.
Never tried any HH amps, although I've done gigs at venues with rusty old HH mixer/amps sat on a shelf gathering cobwebs that just keep going forever. They may not sound great, and they may look like bit of a toy, but those things would survive a lightning strike!
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