Shure tracking force problem

[Lionheart]

I have just brought a replacement stylus for my M75 ed2 cartridge and noticed that it didn't sound as good as the worn one it replaced, I checked the VTF with digital scales and it was bang on 1.5 grams (as it should be), I then used the Shure test record and it was mistracking badly, I increased the VTF until it tracked correctly on the test record and it now reads 2.3gram on the scales, on the plus side it sounds fantastic but Should I stick with the higher weight or send the stylus back as faulty?

[synsei]

If it was a cheaper, pattern stylus it may well have a conical tip which might explain the higher tracking force. If you ordered an elliptical stylus perhaps they sent you a conical one by mistake, could be worth checking the tip with a loup.

[Lionheart]

Thanks for the reply, The stylus is an Ed Saunders elliptical (.3 X .7) diamond, To be truthful it sounds really nice at the heavier weight and a lot better than the ebay cheapos but would it damage my vinyl if I kept it at 2.3 grams.

[synsei]

Wear rate will obviously be more of an issue at a higher tracking force. I have no personal experience with any of Ed Saunders' products but from what I have read he is highly regarded. I'm stumped to be honest... :scratch:

[Dominic Harper]

Stick with the heavier force. You will damage your records if not tracking correctly. Many after market styli do not conform to the originals specs, often needing higher tracking force.

[synsei]

There ya go, if Dom says it's okay you can take it to the bank... :D

[Reid Malenfant]

I'm not a vinyl guy but in all honesty I don't think the slight increase in tracking weight will damage your vinyl. There are other cartridges out there that require a bit more weight than 2.3g to get the best out of them.

You might find that given a little bit of time you might be able to reduce the tracking weight, after all, if I'm not mistaken the suspension for the cantilever is actually in the replacement stylus? :scratch:

It might need a while to kind of free up - or if you like run or bed in :)

I'm well prepared to be shot down in flames on this one :D

[tannoy man]

Leave it as it is, I Run My M55 at 2.5 Grams, Because it Sounds Best that way.
These Early Shure's are Quite Flexible, if You Care to Experiment.
Cable Capitance can be a Problem I Think:)

[Marco]

Out of interest, what's the Shure recommended VTF range, for the M75ED?

Marco.

[Dominic Harper]

The suspension is built into the stylus assembly. Aftermarket ones are often quite different to the originals. Many cheap Ebay replacements are pretty dire I'm sorry to say. The G800 ones are thats for sure, so I import them from Jico in Japan as they are far better quality!

[Lionheart]

Great, that's put my mind to rest, thank you Chaps. Agreed Ed Saunders is highly rated, I brought a V15 IV off him last year and I can't tell the difference between his one and the original V15 stylus.

[Reid Malenfant]

The suspension is built into the stylus assembly.
No flames for me :D

I didn't think I was totally daft... :facepull:

On the other hand.... :eyebrows:

[Marco]

Out of interest, what's the Shure recommended VTF range, for the M75ED?


Anyone??

Marco.

[Lionheart]

Shure state in their instructions .75g to 1.5g

[Marco]

Mmm... Sorry to be less jolly about this, John, but I'd be wary tracking it a 2.3g, if the highest recommended figure is 1.5g.

I bow to Dom's superior experience, but TBH, I'm surprised that it sounds better like that. NO cartridge I've ever owned has sounded anything like right, used so far over its manufacturer recommended VTF :scratch:

For me, what's happening is that your replacement stylus is of inferior quality to the original (which is often the case), and you're now having to compensate for its deficiencies by running it with such a high VTF. I think you'd get much better performance by finding a NOS stylus and running it within its recommended VTF range.

Marco.

[Lionheart]

In your opinion Marco what would you consider a safe maximum weight I could get away with using.

[Reid Malenfant]

Mmm... Sorry to be less jolly about this, but I'd be wary tracking it a 2.3g, if the highest recommended figure is 1.5g.

I bow to Dom's superior experience, but TBH, I'm surprised that it sounds better like that. NO cartridge I've ever owned has sounded anything like right, used so far over its manufacturer recommended VTF :scratch:

For me, what's happening is that the replacement stylus is of inferior quality to the original (which is often the case), and you're having to compensate for its deficiencies by running it with such a high VTF. I think you'd get much better performance by finding a NOS stylus and running it within its recommended VTF range.

Marco.
Hey Marco, remember the cartridge burn off in the hifi mag? Recently, as in todays replies :rolleyes:

You might want to know what the arm is etc, if you get my drift :)

I'm 100% sure that would affect things :eyebrows:


Meanwhile I'll crawl back under my rock & turn up the music - Oh yeah!

[Clive]

I've had a similar experience as the OP with an M95ED, the aftermarket stylus needs about 2.5g and even then I couldn't totally stop is mis-tracking, I returned to my M75ED with original stylus - at least I know it's low hours as I bought it from new.

[Marco]

It's a difficult one for me, John, as I don't have much experience with the M75. Dom must know what he's talking about, if he says its ok, but I'd be intrigued to know how...

Does it sound *that* bad at 1.5g? What's the difference in sound between the cartridge tracking at 1.5g and 2.3g?

Marco.

[Marco]

I've had a similar experience as the OP with an M95ED, the aftermarket stylus needs about 2.5g and even then I couldn't totally stop is mis-tracking,

Hardly right, though, is it? To me, it defintely sounds like a 'bandage'.

Marco.

[Lionheart]

Marco, I'm not sure if your familiar with the Shure era II test Lp, it has various bands of 5 soundclips of the same piece of music with the 5th track being the hardest to get spot on, at 1.5g it mistracks on the 3rd soundclip at 2.3 it tracks all 5 soundclips.

[Dominic Harper]

It could be they have sent out a stylus to fit the M75 but without it being ED Type II specs. This would be one explanation.
I have come across many aftermarket styli. I have yet to find one that performs to original specs to the letter.
If the replacement is tracking fine at 2.3, without sat on dynamics and sounds great then whats the issue?

[Lionheart]

I think it's a 'one size fits all' thing on the whole of their M75 range.

[Marco]

If the replacement is tracking fine at 2.3, without sat on dynamics and sounds great then whats the issue?

That's precisely the bit which I can't see being the case! ;)

...And also precisely why I always use NOS styli on my cartridges, unless you've done a proper re-tipping job.

Marco.

[Lionheart]

Don't get me wrong I love the sound of the stylus I was just concerned about the damage it might cause my records if left at 2.3g.

[Dominic Harper]

This may be of interest-

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=551.0

[Marco]

I think it's a 'one size fits all' thing on the whole of their M75 range.

That would only make sense if the whole of the M75 range used the same styli, and identical VTF...

Can't you find an original Shure-made stylus?

Marco.

[Marco]

This may be of interest-

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=551.0

Soz, dude, I don't have time to read all of that. If you reckon it's cool using it a 2.3g, and John's happy with how it sounds, then I'll bow out and we'll leave it there :cool:

Marco.

[Dominic Harper]

No probs Marco. The first post lists all the styli made for the M75 body. Some of these track at over 2 grams. I can only assume the stylus in question may have been made to one of the specs on this list, and not to ED II specs. Seems like a safe assumption.

[Lionheart]

I use on my better condition records an original low milage N75 HE T2 stylus and it tracks all 5 bands on the test Lp at 1.5g. I tend to go through my stylus fairly quickly (about 6 months average) and didn't want to cane the HE as they are quiet hard to come across now, so I tend to buy good copies to preserve it.

[Lionheart]

Here is the sellers info on stylus:

Elliptical .3 X .7 diamond stylus for your Shure
M71, M74 and M75 cartridges.
Compare to Shure N75

[Marco]

I use on my better condition records an original low milage N75 HE T2 stylus and it tracks all 5 bands on the test Lp at 1.5g.

For me, that says it all!

And what do you mean on your "better condition records"? All your records should be in good condition ;)

Marco.

[WOStantonCS100]

Maybe I missed it; but, is possible to ask the manufacturer what the proper VTF is supposed to be? The nice thing about my SoundSmith retips is that Peter included spec sheets, that among other things, include the recommended VTF for the cartridge with the new cantilever/stylus. In almost every case, though, the recommended VTF was reduced.

[Lionheart]

For me, that says it all!

And what do you mean on your "better condition records"? All your records should be in good condition ;)

Marco.

I do have a modest pile of vinyl Marco but you know what it's like one or two slip through the quality net now and again,

[Lionheart]

I swapped the Shure over to my 2nd turntable with a Rega arm this afternoon and low and behold it tracks the Shure test Lp perfectly at 1.9g (still .4g over though). I then used my AT120e on the original decks SME arm and it tracked the Lp at 1.8g (as it should), any ideas?.

[wee tam]

my biggest surprise came from initially not being set up correctly,
then i wa shown anti skate to zero , set weight till balanced at zero , and twist weight WHERE it is grasping the wand and spinning the weight till it reads zero , up till then it was guess work and amazing how far out the readings actually were , i know do this with every cart fitted

[DSJR]

The AT120E is a 1.5g tracker isn't it?

There are pattern Shure needles and equivalent carefully made styli for the M75 series. Jico should be about the best these days for equivalents and the SAS is very differently made and calibrated, offering a better performance to the originals in many cases.

I have one of these,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHURE-TURNTABLE-CARTRIDGE-FOR-DUAL-BIC-GARRARD-/380442193019?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58941f2c7b

It looks like an M75-6s/M93e body version which can take any of this series' styli, fitted with a good pattern N91-ED stylus. It tracks at 1.3g perfectly with nothing to be gained increasing to 1.5g I found. The diamond is well finished and set and the sonics seem livelier than the original too..

[Dominic Harper]

+1 for the Jico styli. They are superb.

[tannoy man]

I have to Come to the Defence of The Ed Saunders Styli and Say
They are First Class and Fantastic Value. I have Come into Contact with quite a Few Dodgy After market Shure Styli over the Years and These are not of that Ilk;)

[DSJR]

I have an Ed Saunders N55E stylus for my M55e and it's fine. Another good diamond and tracks fine at 1.8g or so. The sound isn't as clear in the bass as an AT110E for example, but it's ok everywhere else..

[Lionheart]

Your right the Ed Saunders stylus is far better than a cheap eBay copy and I certainly wouldn't want to discredit them in any way, I've brought a couple off him in the last few years and I've yet to be disappointed, it just struck me as strange that it wouldn't track at 1.5g, it starts breaking up at the 2nd of the 5 bands on the test Lp, whereas it tracks to the 5th band at the higher weight.