View Full Version : Gold or silver interconnects & does length matter?
Jamiepg23
26-05-2012, 11:33
Having spent the last couple of weeks at my new job iv listened to a dozen or more systems with 2 dozen or more types of cable.
Iv found that the silver interconnects seem to be giving a slightly nicer sound to the gold.
Any views ?
And iv had a little disagreement with my boss over the keeping speaker cable length the same, i think it should always be the same, he says it makes no difference. Again any opinions would be appreciated.
Thank you
Copper, cable and connectors. :eyebrows:
Having spent the last couple of weeks at my new job iv listened to a dozen or more systems with 2 dozen or more types of cable.
Iv found that the silver interconnects seem to be giving a slightly nicer sound to the gold.
Any views ?
And iv had a little disagreement with my boss over the keeping speaker cable length the same, i think it should always be the same, he says it makes no difference. Again any opinions would be appreciated.
Thank you
Have you thought about it? Why should speaker cable length make any difference and what difference would it make? Try it with some old cable/wire and report back. I've done varied length and it sounded fine still got them. Others may disagree.
Wakefield Turntables
26-05-2012, 13:03
Go silver as its a better conductor as far length, well the general rule of thumb is to try and keep lengths as short as possib
It's only major differences in cable lengths that might cause problems and given that you should interpret the word "major" as tens of kilometers, then lose no sleep at all over it. Using a cable one metre in length to one speaker and maybe ten metres on the other will produce no audible differences unless the cable has high resistance/inductance/capacitance parameters, which means it's a crap cable anyway and should be binned.
Actually, Frank, that's not quite true... Much depends on the ability of a preamp to drive longer lengths of cable. Some (such as passives) don't 'like' much more than 2m, where quite noticeable sonic degradation can occur.
My Croft preamp is not too bad, in that respect, but I can still clearly hear the difference between using, say, a 0.5m interconnect and 3m one, of the same type. The shorter cable makes music sound more detailed and dynamic.
It's not a massive difference, by any means, but worthwhile in system like mine, where every aspect of set-up has been fine-tuned to perfection! :)
Marco.
Actually, Frank, that's not quite true... Much depends on the ability of a preamp to drive longer lengths of cable. Some (such as passives) don't 'like' much more than 2m, where quite noticeable sonic degradation can occur.
My Croft preamp is not too bad, in that respect, but I can still clearly hear the difference between using, say, a 0.5m interconnect and 3m one, of the same type. The shorter cable makes music sound more detailed and dynamic.
It's not a massive difference, by any means, but worthwhile in system like mine, where every aspect of set-up has been fine-tuned to perfection! :)
Marco.
Wouldn't disagree with you at all Marco, but the OP was asking about speaker cables. Off to Specsavers you go old bean :wave:
Lol - the same thing applies with speaker cables (and particularly their relationship with integrated or power amps); in fact, MORE so, for all sorts of valid reasons! ;)
Marco.
Speaker cables first:
lengths can and do make a difference but only if your amp has very low output inductance or none at all! (NVA and Naim amps spring to mind). the output circuit, which consists of output stage, speaker cable and speaker load needs to see a certain inductance otherwise you could have issues with the amplifier. That said, if an amp is sensitive to cable inductance, it usually means that a minimum cable length per channel is required and deviation by a metre or two won't actually change the sound too much (perhaps a miniscule amount of roll-off).
Its good practice to keep lengths the same but in practice, it makes little difference providing the differences themselves are not too great (eg 1m and 15m WOULD affect things and probably audibly so as its not just the impedance you have to consider but the total reactive load for each channel and the effects of that load on the amplifier output circuit).
As regards gold or silver...well the myth still prevails despite what audio engineers try to do to combat it. Gold doesnt sound like anything, nor does silver and nor does copper. They conduct electricity. Where sonic differences come into play with speaker cables particularly (less so with interconnects) is the effects of the material properties as a whole...ie tribolectric effects of silver with a certain dielectric, the capacitance of same etc when compared with a copper or gold conductor of equal section and using the same dielectric). Each may have slight induction changes and capacitative effects which can in theory, depending on cable geometry, affect signal propogation and hence harmonics. That said, be it silver gold or unobtainium used as a conductor, they can all be made to sound exactly the same by virtue of sectional matching and dielectric design. If people would only understand that they could save themselves a lot of cash, and be happy with decent copper conductors, sensibly designed and sensibly priced.
Differing cable lengths feeding the speakers can make a difference, and it is best if possible to
minimise the length
make the lengths equal
and there are sound (forgive the pun) reasons why. First is that all speaker cables will have loop resistance, loop inductance and capacitance. Generally these values of these are small (and if not, than you should do as Frank has suggested 'bin them'), certainly much smaller than the values of the respective components of the crossover (by a factor of at least 1000).
However the resistance (and to some extent the reactance of the cable) effectively adds to the output impedance of the amp and this will affect the damping factor of the amplifier: how well the amplifier damps out the back emf of the speaker (once the speaker cone is moving, the speaker acts like a generator), or to put it more colloquially: how well it stops the 'tail wagging the dog'. For this reason alone the cable lengths ought to be equal and short.
One minor consideration is that the cables and speakers are in series, so some amplifier power will be dissipated in the cables. Differing lengths will mean a slight imbalance between the speakers, but this will usually be very small and not noticed. For example let us assume the cable has a loop resistance of 0.02Ohm per meter and you have two lengths of 5 and 10 metres. The imbalance assuming a speaker loading of 8 Ohm will only be 0.05dB and not noticable.
In my own system one speaker cable is 6m long, the other 16m long. I'm not bothered about the reduction in amplifier damping factor from 160 to 8 and 4 respectively, because I use electrostatic speakers whose diaphragms have very little mass or inertia to control.
Iv found that the silver interconnects seem to be giving a slightly nicer sound to the gold.
I'm curious, what are the gold interconnects you have compared?
Mark Grant
26-05-2012, 16:36
That's what I was thinking, I cant think of any gold cables ?
Early in the thread it was suggested gold = copper
Differing cable lengths feeding the speakers can make a difference, and it is best if possible to
minimise the length
make the lengths equal
and there are sound (forgive the pun) reasons why. First is that all speaker cables will have loop resistance, loop inductance and capacitance. Generally these values of these are small (and if not, than you should do as Frank has suggested 'bin them'), certainly much smaller than the values of the respective components of the crossover (by a factor of at least 1000).
However the resistance (and to some extent the reactance of the cable) effectively adds to the output impedance of the amp and this will affect the damping factor of the amplifier: how well the amplifier damps out the back emf of the speaker (once the speaker cone is moving, the speaker acts like a generator), or to put it more colloquially: how well it stops the 'tail wagging the dog'. For this reason alone the cable lengths ought to be equal and short.
One minor consideration is that the cables and speakers are in series, so some amplifier power will be dissipated in the cables. Differing lengths will mean a slight imbalance between the speakers, but this will usually be very small and not noticed. For example let us assume the cable has a loop resistance of 0.02Ohm per meter and you have two lengths of 5 and 10 metres. The imbalance assuming a speaker loading of 8 Ohm will only be 0.05dB and not noticable.
In my own system one speaker cable is 6m long, the other 16m long. I'm not bothered about the reduction in amplifier damping factor from 160 to 8 and 4 respectively, because I use electrostatic speakers whose diaphragms have very little mass or inertia to control.
I should have added the LCR values of the speaker cables will add to those of the speaker and alter the speaker's impedance curve. This will have a small effect on the smoothness, or otherwise, of the speaker's frequency response. Another reason to keep the lengths as near equal as possible.
One, somewhat remote, problem that might be incurred with long speaker leads is, depending on location, they can act as inefficient aerials and pick up a small amount of RF. This is only a problem if you live near an AM radio transmitter or an airfield. You won't of course hear the RFI in your speakers, but it can enter the amplifier where it can cause problems. This is a very remote possibility but is one more reason to keep the speaker cables short.
So to recap: if possible keep the cables short and of equal length.
Early in the thread it was suggested gold = copper
Oh, was it - that's a bit confusing - after all, gold and copper are quite different!
Indeed... Try giving your girlfriend a copper engagement ring, and see what she gives you in return!! ;)
Marco.
WOStantonCS100
27-05-2012, 00:14
I should have added the LCR values of the speaker cables will add to those of the speaker and alter the speaker's impedance curve. This will have a small effect on the smoothness, or otherwise, of the speaker's frequency response. Another reason to keep the lengths as near equal as possible.
One, somewhat remote, problem that might be incurred with long speaker leads is, depending on location, they can act as inefficient aerials and pick up a small amount of RF. This is only a problem if you live near an AM radio transmitter or an airfield. You won't of course hear the RFI in your speakers, but it can enter the amplifier where it can cause problems. This is a very remote possibility but is one more reason to keep the speaker cables short.
So to recap: if possible keep the cables short and of equal length.
My very wise, valve amp building, mentor once said, "The speaker and speaker cables are part of the amplifier." I think that's why I still haven't purchased new speakers... ...because I haven't yet decided which power amps I'm going to build.
Reid Malenfant
27-05-2012, 17:11
Indeed... Try giving your girlfriend a copper engagement ring, and see what she gives you in return!! ;)
Marco.
6773
Quality!
:lolsign:
Marco.
StanleyB
28-05-2012, 07:43
Indeed... Try giving your girlfriend a copper engagement ring, and see what she gives you in return!!
It depends on the purity of the copper. Most copper rings are mixed with gold, which gives the gold it carat number. So a ring with a lot of copper has a lower carat number. As long as you don't go below 9 carat and you stick the word GOLD after the word carat the girlfriend won't know it is a copper ring with just a bit of gold in it :eyebrows:.
I think some manufacturers use the same principle with regard to brass ;).
Apparently, it's the same with cock rings...
Marco.
seoirse2002
28-05-2012, 08:42
yes...but does size really:cool: matter?
That's another one to throw past your girlfriend!
Marco.
walpurgis
30-05-2012, 12:03
As a slight aside to the main post topic. What's this recent 'fad' for silver plated plugs on interconnects all about? Does it have benefits? I know silver is the most conductive metal, but would that be important over the short distances in a plug. Maybe also it takes solder (silver solder?) better. I can see a big drawback, the quick build-up of tarnish on the surfaces, particularly those areas you can't reach to clean. After all, isn't that the reason gold plating is used. Geoff.
Hi Geoff,
As a slight aside to the main post topic. What's this recent 'fad' for silver-plated plugs on interconnects all about?
I think that the "recent fad", you're referring to, may actually be with solid-silver conductor plugs, not silver-plated; the former which are quite a different beast...! ;)
However, much depends on the purity of the conductors used on both plugs. It's by no means automatic that pure-silver plugs will outperform pure-copper, simply because it comes down to the respective purity of both conductors.
For example, the best pure-silver can only be 99.99% (4-nines) pure, and have a conductivity of 106% IACS (International Annealed Copper Standard), whereas the purest copper can be many more times nine, towards 100%, in terms of purity, although 'only' having an IACS of 102.75%.
The argument, therefore, is that the sonic effect of the higher purity of the best quality copper can outweigh the benefits of the higher conductivity of silver. It's an intriguing phenomenon, which I haven't quite got to the bottom of yet...
Brass, which so many mediocre quality RCA connectors are made from (and plated with gold), only has an IACS of 28%! Therefore, it's no wonder that substituting inferior brass plugs on cables for high-quality copper (or silver) ones, in a high-resolution system, can give very noticeable sonic improvements! :eyebrows:
Marco.
walpurgis
30-05-2012, 16:21
Yes I was aware of the slight differences in conductivity and agree that copper conductors in interconnects at least can in many cases seem audibly preferable. Although, I do have silver cored cables that have sounded rather nice in my system. The RCA plugs I've seen were definitely quoted as being silver plated. Geoff.
Which one's were they, Geoff - got any links? I honestly can't remember any silver-plated RCAs being mentioned here, only those from WBT and Eichmann, which are both solid-silver.... :scratch:
Marco.
Apparently, it's the same with cock rings...
Marco.
I bow to your experience.
Whaddya mean? You gave me it, when I was round last time, because it was too big for you!
Thank feck you washed it first.....
Marco.
walpurgis
30-05-2012, 22:35
Which one's were they, Geoff - got any links? I honestly can't remember any silver-plated RCAs being mentioned here, only those from WBT and Eichmann, which are both solid-silver.... :scratch:
Marco.
My memory fails me, I can't remember where I last saw the silver RCA/phono plugs. They weren't mentioned here, but I've just checked on eBay and there are quite a few silver plated plugs and sockets listed. Geoff.
hifinutt
04-06-2012, 03:22
That's what I was thinking, I cant think of any gold cables ?
analysis plus make gold cables and i use van den hul gold xlr currently
http://www.analysis-plus.com/design_main.html
Maybe I'm blind, but I can't see anything immediately obvious there about gold... :scratch:
Or did you link to the site for another reason, Mark?
Marco.
Oh sorry, yes - I linked to it because of the last vid on the page that talks about their ideas on cable design.
As you say, there is nothing on material choice - which does seem a bit odd.
Indeed - no worries... :)
Marco.
If you watch the vid they promote an interesting hypothesis regarding cable geometry (I don't know how valid this hypothesis is though).
However, I don't see how an oval (as opposed to circular) weaving achieves their desired goals. In addition, if you really want to ensure that the surfaces of the positive and return are equidistant from each other at all times, a coax construction achieves this very much more simply - surely?
That's what I was thinking, I cant think of any gold cables ?
Siltech and Crystal Cable have been carrying the torch for years; Audio Metallurgy, Stealth, CRL, Synergistic Research and Analysis Plus in addition to other smaller manufacturers have all been firm advocates of gold cables.
Gold cables are particularly popular in the US (judging by the number of companies that seems to be cropping up over there); on the basis of what I've heard from my Siltechs, I'm definitely hooked.:cool:
Palladium anyone?
http://www.whathifi.com/news/black-rhodium-adds-pure-palladium-interconnects
Nah! What you want is an osmium-plated depleted uranium core with pure tungsten shielding. Cryo-treated and burnt-in for at least 24 months.
Nothing less will do!
Oh, and the dielectric? Well that would be polyvinyl chloride, but only from recycled recordings on the Verve or Blue Note label of the 1950s.
StanleyB
05-06-2012, 06:10
The best material for audio cable depends on its position in the periodic table. So an uranium cable would indeed be the best cable to use if you want absolute perfection. Gold is however a very poor metal to use for audio. It is normally mixed with other metals like copper, and that mixture causes crystal structure deficiencies that results in waveform distortions when a signal laden electron jumps form one periodic element to another. The differences in protons and electrons causes a different level of charge on the electrons.
The obvious weak point in an interconnect is where the connector and cable are joined up together. Solder is a multi metal composite, which is a massive source of impurities and variation in signal transmission properties. If gold does not bind naturally with any of these metals within a solder compound then the audio value of the gold interconnect is completely wasted. As every sailor knows a chain is only as good as its weakest link. The same principle applies in the design of interconnects. But manufacturers don't want you to know that.
Some cable designers maintain that conductivity is the least important factor in a cable's sound quality:
http://www.stealthaudiocables.com/products/gold.htm
StanleyB
05-06-2012, 06:46
Well of course they would say that. I developed a range of cables that won several What HIFI awards, so I am speaking from factual knowledge here. The moment you read claims from a designer that conductivity is not important you know that you are dealing with a "look and feel" designer instead of a person with knowledge of the properties of the material he is working with.
Different materials exhibit a different conductivity which affects the strength of the signal coming in one end and existing the other. If it didn't matter then we could be using wood as an interconnect. Wood does transmit electricity after all, especially when wet.
Well of course they would say that. I developed a range of cables that won several What HIFI awards, so I am speaking from factual knowledge here. The moment you read claims from a designer that conductivity is not important you know that you are dealing with a "look and feel" designer instead of a person with knowledge of the properties of the material he is working with.
Different materials exhibit a different conductivity which affects the strength of the signal coming in one end and existing the other. If it didn't matter then we could be using wood as an interconnect. Wood does transmit electricity after all, especially when wet.
Just threw that page in for the sake of argument, a different perspective and to hear your views on it- To be honest, didn't think much of it either and what you say does make much more sense to me.
anthonyTD
05-06-2012, 09:59
hi All,
I tend to agree with many here, its the cable make up as a whole that will have the biggest impact on sonics, ie, all the parts, the configuration, the type of dialectric used, the length and also the position it is used in the audio replay chain. At the end of the day, i only use the cables that sound right [to me] in my system, yes, of course it makes sense to use the best conductor you can for the signal, but as others here have pointed out, if you mix the wrong configuration and dialectric etc with even the best conductor material, and then use it in the wrong context, you will end up with a signal transfer that is seriously compromised.
A...
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