View Full Version : The most fun you can have for £10.99
Is a pair of Celestion Ditton 15s I picked up this week from a local recycling centre! Amazing to think that someone had destined these for the bin.:steam:
The seller was a local skip-diver who operates from a warehouse where they strip down TVs and other electronic waste but fortunately has a great eye (and ears) for classic old stuff. His workshop is truly an alladins cave of tested and untested audio gear and we spent a good hour trawling through some classic gear.
So anyway I get them home, clean off the squashed snail on the side of them, give them a liberal dusting and hoover out some of crud from where the dampening foam on the speaker grille has deteriorated and plug them into the mini t with a PC and usb DAC as the source and place them on some alphason stands i got a while ago for 20quid. Wow!:eek:
What tweeters these things have! Amazing detail, very clean sounding though... no evidence of hiss or what some might call any top end sibilance. As the speaker binding posts are of the tiny screw variety I was limited to which cable i could use but managed to put my hands on some reasonable quality Gale stuff i bought from Richers years ago which would just about wrap around the tiny binding posts. These speakers were made for the mini-t imho and i'm achieving more than enough quality output without having to push the mini t hard at all (set to 10oclock), anywhere past 1pm gets way too loud!
I've spent this morning running between this and my main system trying to decide which i actually prefer! What fun we're having right now! The cabinets are in pretty good nick with a couple of minor chips here and there, amazing to think that 1 week ago they were on a rubbish tip!
So i think I'll be keeping them and perhaps building a budget 'vintage' system of sorts for a chuckle.
So does anyone have ideas for cheap and cheerful tweaks and restoration tips, all the drivers are in great condition and no foam rotted so I'll keep them as is. I guess the binding posts is the obvious one, how would i go about this?
(Btw watch out Mike and Alex, if theres ever another Cheap as Chips challenge then these are dying to be contenders!)
Sounds like a great deal. Got these, along with some decent Gale cables, for £9 off e-bay last week :)
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/missions.jpg
Sounds like a great deal. Got these, along with some decent Gale cables, for £9 off e-bay last week :)
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/missions.jpg
I think I would be chuffed to bits too with a bargain like that. Well done that man :eyebrows:
Canetoad
26-05-2012, 16:02
Now that's funny because I bought a pair on Ebay last night too. £25 and I picked them up today. The guy I bought them off replaced them in his system with a vintage pair of Castles. :)
Currently they're connected to my Mini-T playing music from the PC through an HRT Streamer II. I agree Rich, the Mini-T and Ditton 15s do seem to work very well together. :eyebrows:
Wakefield Turntables
26-05-2012, 16:04
I've been banging on about the virtues of 15's for years. I've moved onto 44's. Sansui / Nad gear seems to partner the 15's very well. Well done chaps. ;)
Canetoad
26-05-2012, 16:30
I was running mine from an NAD C350 amp and I didn't think they sounded that good. :scratch: Maybe I should tinker with speaker cables.
If you're used to the best this era had to offer - oh I dunno, DM1's, DM2's, bigger celestions, AR's Spendor/Rogers/KEF's, then I suppose my negative memories of Ditton 15's and Counties - from the era - just MAY be justified perhaps. However, getting a pair for peanuts, sticking them on the end of a modern amp and with better wires, may well transform them into something charming, if not exactly state of the art. WELL DONE YOU!
Wish we had an electronics clearing station like this in Ipswich.......
Wakefield Turntables
26-05-2012, 17:12
I was running mine from an NAD C350 amp and I didn't think they sounded that good. :scratch: Maybe I should tinker with speaker cables.
They sound pretty good with the old NAD 3020A. i bought one for my mate to gently ease him back into vinyl and I was blown away with that particular combo, partner with some of the old Marantz CD's if you want a digital source and I think you have a winning combo.
Sounds like a great deal. Got these, along with some decent Gale cables, for £9 off e-bay last week :)
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss68/Lodger56/missions.jpg
Thats a hell of a bargain there, Its a tough call to say which of my systems i like best, the one which cost many hundreds or the one which cost under a ton quid. At these sort of prices there is no reason why even the most modest of incomes cant have a good quality system.
If you're used to the best this era had to offer - oh I dunno, DM1's, DM2's, bigger celestions, AR's Spendor/Rogers/KEF's, then I suppose my negative memories of Ditton 15's and Counties - from the era - just MAY be justified perhaps. However, getting a pair for peanuts, sticking them on the end of a modern amp and with better wires, may well transform them into something charming, if not exactly state of the art. WELL DONE YOU!
Wish we had an electronics clearing station like this in Ipswich.......
I'd agree, they are far from the best that era had to offer but they can still hold their own against modern speakers. Whilst the tweeters in these things are amazing for their time, they are probably a bit unrefined for more modern tastes and looks wise they are owt but pretty with the grilles removed.
The seller goes by the name of 'electricalreuse' on that well known auction site (hope i'm ok to mention that), its worth keeping an eye on him as from time to time he gets some real gems and will post. Indeed just the other week he sold one of those akai quartz lock tts for 49quid which i know are quite a popular choice with some of the members here. If youd like the detail please PM me.
I was running mine from an NAD C350 amp and I didn't think they sounded that good. :scratch: Maybe I should tinker with speaker cables.
Hi Bernie,
I owned a NAD C350 up until a couple of years ago. You should try partnering it with with some Mission speakers, particularly 773's if you can find a pair in decent condition, the combination works very well indeed. If you do decide to acquire a pair of 773's it is imperative that you view them before you hand over your cash. If they have been overdriven the roll surrounds on the bass/mids have a tendency to split where they meet the cone edge. This is almost impossible to spot by eye so my advice would be to gently run a thumb or forefinger around the edge of each cone before you take them away. This is important because replacement drive units are no longer manufactured.
walpurgis
26-05-2012, 18:43
If you're used to the best this era had to offer - oh I dunno, DM1's, DM2's, bigger celestions, AR's Spendor/Rogers/KEF's, then I suppose my negative memories of Ditton 15's and Counties - from the era - just MAY be justified perhaps. However, getting a pair for peanuts, sticking them on the end of a modern amp and with better wires, may well transform them into something charming, if not exactly state of the art. WELL DONE YOU!
Wish we had an electronics clearing station like this in Ipswich.......
If you're talking about the best from the era, I'd include IMF, Tannoy, Quad ESLs and of course Yamaha NS1000s, amongst others.
Anyway, back to the point. The Ditton 15s are a sweet little speaker. It does benefit from better terminals and a quality cable rewire. I've had a few pairs over the years. The remarkable treble quality is down to the superb HF1300 tweeter, which was also used by IMF, Spendor, B&W, and Rogers etc., to great effect. HF1300 tweeters are selling for about £50 a pair on eBay, not that I'm suggesting you tear apart the Dittons. Geoff.
Well, I'm listening to my 15XRs right now, in the garden (on their Atacama stands, fed from my system upstairs), whilst typing this, and with the Techy spinning the tunes, they sound fab!
I think I'll 'unleash' the 66s tomorrow, and frighten the folks in the pub next door having Sunday lunch! :gig: :eyebrows: :eyebrows:
Marco.
You have inspired me Marco, tomorrow I think I'll set up the Mini-T, Celestion County's and an old Sony CDP for garden duties... :D
It's great fun, matey. Just add some food, booze, and decent company, and have a ball! :fingers: :hairmetal:
Marco.
It's great fun, matey. Just add some food, booze, and decent company, and have a ball! :fingers: :hairmetal:
.
The other day one of our neighbours called round with an invitation to a jubilee street party, very much a DIY affair with people to bring their own grub, drink and bunting etc... My contribution will be to set up the bbq, Dittons, mini t, ipod and offer a burger, a beer and some good tunes to anyone who drops by...
Anyway, back to the point. The Ditton 15s are a sweet little speaker. It does benefit from better terminals and a quality cable rewire. I've had a few pairs over the years. The remarkable treble quality is down to the superb HF1300 tweeter, which was also used by IMF, Spendor, B&W, and Rogers etc., to great effect. HF1300 tweeters are selling for about £50 a pair on eBay, not that I'm suggesting you tear apart the Dittons. Geoff.
Thats good to know Geoff, fortunately I'm enjoying the 15s enough at the moment not to want to rip the tweeters out for the sake of a few quid but there are many who wouldn't hesitate I'm sure. Hence why I'm amazed I got em so cheap, thought ppl would have had them for parts and spares if nothing else.
I'd be interested in putting some better binding posts on so i can use 'proper' cable although I do have to say the fact they sound so good with what is a very basic budget cable on quite shoddy terminals makes me wonder....
I'd be interested in putting some better binding posts on so i can use 'proper' cable although I do have to say the fact they sound so good with what is a very basic budget cable on quite shoddy terminals makes me wonder....
I have the same tiny binding posts on my '44s - I use Belkin pure AV speaker cable with the optional screw-in spade connecters (which you have to buy seperately) - works fine and no need to go through the hassle of butchering the back panel. Using thicker cable should, in theory, give better bass.
I have the same tiny binding posts on my '44s - I use Belkin pure AV speaker cable with the optional screw-in spade connecters (which you have to buy seperately) - works fine and no need to go through the hassle of butchering the back panel. Using thicker cable should, in theory, give better bass.
Of course, spade connectors! so obvious now you mention it:doh:
I've got a fair bit of pretty chunky Supra cable lying around which could be just the job. Off to the bay now for the connectors.
Cheers:cool:
Happy to have helped out :)
Canetoad
27-05-2012, 11:04
Hi Bernie,
I owned a NAD C350 up until a couple of years ago. You should try partnering it with with some Mission speakers, particularly 773's if you can find a pair in decent condition, the combination works very well indeed. If you do decide to acquire a pair of 773's it is imperative that you view them before you hand over your cash. If they have been overdriven the roll surrounds on the bass/mids have a tendency to split where they meet the cone edge. This is almost impossible to spot by eye so my advice would be to gently run a thumb or forefinger around the edge of each cone before you take them away. This is important because replacement drive units are no longer manufactured.
Thanks Dave, that's good to know. :)
spendorman
27-05-2012, 11:56
Thats good to know Geoff, fortunately I'm enjoying the 15s enough at the moment not to want to rip the tweeters out for the sake of a few quid but there are many who wouldn't hesitate I'm sure. Hence why I'm amazed I got em so cheap, thought ppl would have had them for parts and spares if nothing else.
I'd be interested in putting some better binding posts on so i can use 'proper' cable although I do have to say the fact they sound so good with what is a very basic budget cable on quite shoddy terminals makes me wonder....
Good tweeters in the Ditton 15, but they are not the same as used in Spendor BC1, BC2, B&W DM1, DM2, DM4, IMF etc., etc. The Ditton 15 uses a low impedance 1300, which has a smaller magnet.
The Ditton 15 would be nice with a supertweeter above it.
walpurgis
27-05-2012, 18:36
Yes, there are a number of variants of HF1300. I have a few pairs myself, metal rear enclosure 15 ohm and plastic rear enclosure 6 ohm.
spendorman
27-05-2012, 18:46
There is also the HF1400 fitted to the B&W DM3 and some BBC monitors. It's basically an HF1300 with an even bigger magnet than used for BC1, BC2, DM1, DM2, DM4 etc. etc.
Quite educational this thread is turning out to be... Mrs B trembles at the thought of me returning home with yet more 70s speakers...:eyebrows:
Wakefield Turntables
27-05-2012, 21:49
the 15's are great speakers but they do respond very well to tweeking. I've posted several times on the upgrades I've done to mine so do a thread search :D
walpurgis
27-05-2012, 22:16
There is also the HF1400 fitted to the B&W DM3 and some BBC monitors. It's basically an HF1300 with an even bigger magnet than used for BC1, BC2, DM1, DM2, DM4 etc. etc.
I never did know which version was used in the Ditton 25, do you?
walpurgis
27-05-2012, 23:20
Just one little extra thing I should point out. I'm sure many of you know that the Ditton 15 XR was a totally different speaker. It used different drive units and the tweeter was a soft dome 'copy' of what Audax had been having some success with for a few years back then.
The HF1300 was in a different league, if limited in top end extension. It has a virtually flat response to just over 13kHz and just cuts off, that is why it was often used in conjunction with a super-tweeter (and why it was called the HF1300). the transient response, detail and image depth is the best I've heard from a direct radiating moving coil tweeter.
For those of you who own Ditton 15s and haven't used a super-tweeter with them, try any decent 8ohm tweeter of around 88 or 90db efficiency, blue tacked facing upwards on top the Ditton 15 cabs and fed with a 0.1 or 0.2 mFd capacitor (I do know that sounds a small value) and yes, I know the vertical facing s/t will give a more diffuse image, but it works. There are obviously more accurate ways of incorporating a s/t, but the foregoing actually works well. The overall difference in what you hear may be subtle, but will be important. Geoff.
morris_minor
28-05-2012, 09:39
It's nice to hear folk enjoying their Dittons. A new pair of 15XRs was my first proper hifi speaker back in the day . . . With their ABR they made a great sound. :)
What I like most is that what was thought of as a relatively unremarkable speaker, in its day, with high-quality modern equipment/ancillaries, and perhaps some judicious internal tweaking (although mine sound superb, in stock form), in the equation, has been found to actually be rather good!
The fact is, in the 'old days', we never really knew just how good much of the equipment then was, especially speakers, which were either sat on the floor, or on bookshelves, and connected up with bell-wire... :nono:
How on earth could you form any proper conclusions of how good any gear was, with it set-up like that?
I'm listening to my 15XRs now, again outside, and quite frankly, they outperform any modern stand-mount loudspeakers I've heard up to £700-800, and in some areas (such as overall 'musicality'), they outperform them.
And as for my 66s, well, those are a whole different ball game again.....
Marco.
spendorman
28-05-2012, 10:10
I never did know which version was used in the Ditton 25, do you?
I have a pair of HF1300's from some Ditton 25's, I believe that they are the high impedance, big magnet type, as in BC1, BC2, DM1, DM2, DM4 etc. etc., but they have a different system of mounting.
These HF1300's will be going in my LS3/6's
I'm so impressed with the 15s I'd certainly consider these or another Ditton model in my main system. Its not that the love affair with my Regas is over quite yet but my eye has been wondering since i got these beauties.
So last night i wired the dittons up to the mini t and TC 7520 in my main room to stream some stuff from the laptop... the result, bloody awful! Screechy treble, no discerable bass and a everything sounding a bit distant and remote... gave it a couple of hours and myself a few glasses of vino to settle down but still not happy. The Regas were plugged back in and again a nice big smile on my face. Guess its just the difference a room can make as the dittons sound amazing in my spare room on their stands but totally pants in the living room. I thought it might be down to the fact they were not really designed for large stands and may perform better if just placed on the floor???
Hi Rich,
Interesting... Nah, the Dittons need proper stands (which correctly optimise their dimensions). Put them on the floor, and they'll sound shite.
What's happening is that you've just introduced two MASSIVE variables into the equation, namely a different room and a different system!! ;)
I suspect that the Dittons will 'prefer' a vinyl source, with the A400 (doubt the 'light and breezy' presentation of the Mini T would be a good match), than it will your computer set-up, in the main room.
Can you pop the Techy into the main system instead, spin some vinyl, and see what happens? Also make sure that you use them on the same stands as you had them on in the study, and put the speakers quite close up against the rear wall (around a foot from it, is usually ideal), and quite sharply toed-in towards the listening position.
Then report back and let us know how you get on :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
01-06-2012, 14:23
Hi Rich,
Interesting... Nah, the Dittons need proper stands (which correctly optimise their dimensions). Put them on the floor, and they'll sound shite.
What's happening is that you've just introduced two MASSIVE variables into the equation, namely a different room and a different system!! ;)
I suspect that the Dittons will 'prefer' a vinyl source, with the A400 (doubt the 'light and breezy' presentation of the Mini T would be a good match), than it will your computer set-up, in the main room.
Can you pop the Techy into the main system instead, spin some vinyl, and see what happens? Also make sure that you use them on the same stands as you had them on in the study, and put the speakers quite close up against the rear wall (around a foot from it, is usually ideal), and quite sharply toed-in towards the listening position.
Then report back and let us know how you get on :)
Marco.
+1 with some of these remarks. Let me explain. I've tried the 15's with a full Quad 77 setup with a power amp driving each speaker and a pre-amp and they sounded ok, but I did have them on the floor. I then made my own stands to approximately 16" of the ground to the speakers dimensions and then paired them upto an all valve system. RESULT = SUBLIME! They do not work very well on the floor and they do not respond very well to small confined rooms. I think the 15's sound better with valves rather than SS. Vinyl does sound better through the 15's rather than CD's. Hope these humble comments help.
Are they hard to drive? I tried the Griffins I sold on here with a T-amp and the result was that they nearly killed it, could barely get a strangulated cough out of it.
Reid Malenfant
01-06-2012, 19:12
<snip> I thought it might be down to the fact they were not really designed for large stands and may perform better if just placed on the floor???
Marco & Andrew are spot on, they need to be placed on stands :)
The problem & these are not alone is that at around the crossover frequency when both the bass/mid & tweeter are both radiating the same sounds, the difference between the distances of the driver voicecoils from each other results in them beaming strongly up at an angle - straight towards your ears if they are on the floor :rolleyes:
With the tweeters at ear level you wouldn't notice this, but on the floor you are almost bound to...
walpurgis
01-06-2012, 20:35
The forgoing highlights a characteristic of the HF1300 that I have come across. Namely that speakers using these tweeters can be hard to find a good position/orientation for. I believe this is down to the slotted phase correction plate in front of the tweeter diaphragm. With the HF1300, I have noticed what appear to be three treble output beaming 'hot spots', one on axis and one either side of the axis by about 15 degrees or so, so if you move about or alter speaker positions, it can affect how you hear the speaker. The effect is not huge, but I'm sure my ears weren't fooling me. As has been said, the Ditton 15s are probably best suited to vinyl and valve amplification, they were after all designed in the valve era. Transistor Hi-Fi gear was only in it's early days back then. Geoff.
Thanks for the comments and suggestions guys.
should have mentioned I was using the 15s on stands in the main room, about a foot from the rear wall as Marco suggests, i think the stands may be a bit tall for them as they are better suited to smaller bookshelves but the difference between how they sounded in each room was quite profound. I did also try them on the floor and whilst the harshness was gone so was all the detail. In the spare room i have them on stands and have also used the mini t with a simple usb dac and they sound absolutely stunning, the mini t doesnt struggle to drive them at all and i've been using FLAC files from the PC as a source. Indeed this is why i used the Mini t in the main room with them because they sounded good with it in the other system.
Totally agree they would likely sound much better better with valve amplification and turntable as a primary source but having now gone so far down the route of CDs and FLAC files then starting a big vinyl hobby isnt really viable, I primarily use the techie for making good quality vinyl rips and will probably offload both this and my ropey vinyl collection when the ripping project is complete (I'm about 1/5th through a +200 collection which previously had been stashed in a cupboard for the last 15 years). Appreciate that might seem like sacrilege to some but the convenience of streaming wins for me. The vinyl collection represents a 3-4 year black hole in my music collection which I'm now slowly filling. Btw I rarely listen to whole albums and mostly have things on random/shuffle in a jukebox kind of way with new tracks continually being added to the lucky dip. Oftentimes tunes come on and i have to check what the artist/album is as I didnt even know i owned it....:lol:
Anyway, the advantage of a nice long weekend is that i get another chance to mess around with the lash ups to see what works best, although tonight has been spent listening to the Regas and for me they they are in a class of their own, just so nicely balanced and not too shouty or harsh.. I know folk dont always like the Rega house sound, and even fewer would pair it with Aracm amplification but i like the more laid back presentation generally.
As has been said, the Ditton 15s are probably best suited to vinyl and valve amplification, they were after all designed in the valve era. Transistor Hi-Fi gear was only in it's early days back then.
I'm not sure that's true, Geoff. I think that the 15XRs we're discussing are early 1970s vintage, in which case that was around the peak of the new transistor amp era (the 'all new' thing then), when valves were about as common as a lack of strikes and power cuts! ;)
It's actually one of my theories why people who 'grew up' with the Celestions, originally found them to sound rather ordinary, which I can imagine they would've done with some of the 'grey' sounding and soulless transistor amps, of the day, born from the infamous measurement spec 'wars'.
Undoubtedly, one of the reasons I get such amazing results with them here is because they're being used on proper stands and driven by high-quality valve amplification and a top-notch vinyl front end. What were the chances of that happening in the early 70s, with speakers of this type?
Anyway, Rich, enjoy 'em any way you can. They're fab little speakers, and addictively musical in a way which completely evades the majority of modern designs.
Marco.
walpurgis
02-06-2012, 09:21
Marco, the Ditton 15 XR is not the speaker I'm refering to. It does not use the same drive units as the original Ditton 15. The first model with the HF1300 tweeter is what I'm talking about, the XR has a totally different sound and dispersion charactristics. The first version was released at a guess, about 1967, before solid state had made serious inroads into the Hi-Fi market. I could check my Hi-Fi Yearbooks and get a better idea of the time. Geoff.
Ah, no worries. It was just a misunderstanding. You were talking about the originals, whereas I was talking about the actual speakers all of us own, on this thread, which are the XRs :)
Marco.
walpurgis
02-06-2012, 09:30
Hi Marco, I'm not refering to the Ditton 15 XR which came out in the later seventies and has totally different characteristics. I was talkng about the earlier Ditton 15 which uses the HF1300 tweeter and the doped paper pulp coned bass unit. This was released around 1967 if I recall, a check in my Hi-Fi Yearbooks may clarify this. Assuming the design was developed a year or two before that, then valve equipment would have been the norm. I was there mate. Geoff.
Sure, I get that now. However, I think my point is valid about the later 15XRs, and why some people then never got the most out of them :)
Marco.
Just to clarify, the ones i have here are the original Ditton 15s with the rather nasty looking chipboard type stuff when you take the covers off. I think some shorter stands might be in order for them as the alphasons I'm currently using are 60cm. It seemed as if when I had them in the main room the tweeter was dominating the overall presentation, maybe it was just in direct alinment with my earholes as my listening chair is a low slung Eames. Unlike the other room where my listening chair is a more utilitarian office type.
All the same I love em and I've had them on the end of the A400 with the techie as a source for doing some rips this morning... they sound bloody fantasic and theres no hint of harshness which you might expect when paired with the Pioneer.
Just to clarify, the ones i have here are the original Ditton 15s with the rather nasty looking chipboard type stuff when you take the covers off.
Ah, lol; I must have XRs on the brain! Probably because it's what Andy and me use :eyebrows:
All the same I love em and I've had them on the end of the A400 with the techie as a source for doing some rips this morning... they sound bloody fantasic and theres no hint of harshness which you might expect when paired with the Pioneer.
I do think that the A-400 and Techie combo is liable to produce better results with your Dittons than the Mini T and your streaming set-up.
Marco.
Apparently, the HF1300 tweeter was used as a "full" range driver in ship intercom systems or summat, yet it still rates highly as one of the finest sounding tweeters made, even if the bandwidth is very limited these days.
walpurgis
02-06-2012, 17:24
Sure, I get that now. However, I think my point is valid about the later 15XRs, and why some people then never got the most out of them :)
Marco.
Apologies Marco, I wasn't trying to drive a point home. My internet keeps dropping out and I didn't think my first reply got through, so I sent you another. Geoff.
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