View Full Version : Directional Cables. Is it a myth?
walpurgis
26-05-2012, 10:40
Why are so many Hi-Fi speaker cables and interconnects specifed and marked as being directional? This must be a myth. An audio cable deals with a reciprocating signal and by it's very nature should behave and measure exactly the same way in either direction. I know somebody will start on about crystal alignment and molecular structure, etc. etc., but has anybody tested the principle? Geoff.
but has anybody tested the principle? Geoff.
Countless times Geoff and its been discussed countless times too ;)
Normally ends in a handbag fight, so good luck with this one fella :eyebrows:
My two penneth, it matters not one jot what people tell you, you have to try something yourself in your own system - that's the only true test IMO and it does make a difference.
My recently aquired speaker cables are marked for direction. I did not notice so installed them the "wrong way round". They are still that way and sound fine. I agree with your logic but there are others.......
and Tim they make a difference to you and some, the same is not true for every one. It is dependant on the person. It is just an opinion albeit widely held here.
Why are so many Hi-Fi speaker cables and interconnects specifed and marked as being directional? This must be a myth. An audio cable deals with a reciprocating signal and by it's very nature should behave and measure exactly the same way in either direction. I know somebody will start on about crystal alignment and molecular structure, etc. etc., but has anybody tested the principle? Geoff.
Some interconnects are semi balanced (earth and ground connected at one end)
prestonchipfryer
26-05-2012, 11:53
My recently aquired speaker cables are marked for direction. I did not notice so installed them the "wrong way round". They are still that way and sound fine. I agree with your logic but there are others.......
and Tim they make a difference to you and some, the same is not true for every one. It is dependant on the person. It is just an opinion albeit widely held here.
Have you tried them the 'right way' round to compare. They might 'sound' better that way. :eyebrows:
Have you tried them the 'right way' round to compare. They might 'sound' better that way. :eyebrows:
and they may sound
a) the same
b) worse due to alledged directionality due to use, burn in
c) cannot decide if they are different
d) keep thinking about the non directional cables
I'll leave the possible benefit for later.
prestonchipfryer
26-05-2012, 12:28
and they may sound
a) the same
b) worse due to alledged directionality due to use, burn in
c) cannot decide if they are different
d) keep thinking about the non directional cables
I'll leave the possible benefit for later.
Well I don't disagree with you; it was just a thought that popped into my head. It would be interesting if you could try it and report if you found any difference. :)
as a former "cable" maker , AEI cable division birtley , the copper conductor niether knows nor cares where it is pointing , the sheathing however is layed in one direction , does it make a difference , boubt it , unless the trapped air gets worked up and can't escape :lol:
as a former "cable" maker , AEI cable division birtley , the copper conductor niether knows nor cares where it is pointing , the sheathing however is layed in one direction , does it make a difference , boubt it , unless the trapped air gets worked up and can't escape :lol:
ah but
ah but:D it is fun though
:D it is fun though
Dont tell me you hear amazing differences.
walpurgis
26-05-2012, 14:19
Well, yes I have used cables the 'wrong' way round and as far as I can hear, it makes no difference. Single ended cables or cables that have a screen earthed at one end, are merely that. All you do if you turn them round is move the earth by a cable's length, its still earthed (not entirely convinced a screen needs earthing mind you). Audio cables carry a signal that is bi-directional, so as I've suggested directionality would probably be undesirable. So has anybody got proof of directionality, or can quote research indicating that there is? I'm not aware that there is any scientific or even subjective justification. Come on, I must have ruffled a few feathers by now, lets hear the arguments (based on evidence of course, not opinion). Remember, I haven't claimed to be right, but am I wrong? Geoff.
prestonchipfryer
26-05-2012, 14:24
Round and round in circles that's all it will be. :)
In the forest at night people hear things. A respected man said they were ghosts. Nobody has seen them only heard them and say they are ghosts.
walpurgis
26-05-2012, 14:26
You're probably right John, but I'm hoping for a bit of fun. Geoff.
A lot of cable manufacturers obviuosly think it makes a difference or they wouldn't put those little arrows on the sleeves so that we can connect them up the right way. I don't see this as being to their advantage in terms of sales, so I assume they have some scientic justification.
Dont tell me you hear amazing differences.
nope , made the bloody stuff , my I/c's are 99pence stuff :)the only others i think i can hear a "difference" for the better are van damne , but only a thought , mick (Mmar) well known around these parts sold his £5000 set and will not return my van damnes' :( oh they were 99P free delivery from fleabay , would not bid any more :D
A lot of cable manufacturers obviuosly think it makes a difference or they wouldn't put those little arrows on the sleeves so that we can connect them up the right way. I don't see this as being to their advantage in terms of sales, so I assume they have some scientic justification.
the little arrows are customer spec , simply a dot printer set to where the customer wants it to go , think about it , if something goes wrong and the "drum" has to be rewound the the cable is going the "wrong" way before it is finalised and printed on :scratch:
A lot of cable manufacturers obviuosly think it makes a difference or they wouldn't put those little arrows on the sleeves so that we can connect them up the right way. I don't see this as being to their advantage in terms of sales, so I assume they have some scientific justification.
They do it to pander to fashion. The audio fraternity now expects cables to be directional and so expects the cable manufacturer to indicate correct orientation. Since they have already gone to the trouble of having their name printed on the sleeve, adding a few arrows is no more trouble.
The only interconnects that could possibly display directional effects are those that themselves are asymmetric - those wired in a so-called semi-balanced way, where the overall shielding is connected to the outer conductor of the phono plug at one end only. To be most effective, this end needs to be connected to the point of lowest electrical potential relative to the mains earth. It is often assumed that this end is at the source, hence the statement that the arrows ought to point away from the source. This is erroneous, since quite often the source will be double insulated, so the outer conductor of the phono socket of the source is not the point of lowest electrical potential. You just have to experiment.
Interconnects using coaxial cable are completely symmetric and cannot be directional.
Cables marked as directional usually come in to flavours:
single ended (ie RCA) cables using balanced cable geometry with the shield connected to ground at the source end ony and left floating at the other end. Reason for that: To shunt unwanted noise to source chassis ground leaving the conductors free to carry the signal and not ground current noise. In reality single ended circuits have no common mode noise rejection so they will still pick up noise, but this design can be advantageous in helping prevent or minimise the effects of ground loop hum. Best used as marked but can sometimes sound better t'uther way around...just make sure to use both the same way or it defeats the object of the design!
Second flavour: Coax or non-shielded cables in single ended mode marked as directional. Its utter nonsense. Signal cables operate in AC not DC so whatever hype marketing says about burn-in and directionality, its a physical and factual impossibility. Use them any way around you like.
There may (and are) exceptions where some big cable names use zobel networks and other cable circuits. I'd avoid these anyway.
and you have to remember , all the "big" cable sellers do not manufacture , they simply get a company like AEI to do this on their behalf , email say claud damne ;) and ask for a tour of their manufacturing facillities and see if you get a reply / invite
ColinWonfor
26-05-2012, 15:13
and you have to remember , all the "big" cable sellers do not manufacture , they simply get a company like AEI to do this on their behalf , email say claud damne ;) and ask for a tour of their manufacturing facillities and see if you get a reply / invite
NO wrong, we own the tools to our cable, it is made in the UK, not China or standard cable bought over the counter as lighting cable, unique to us, sorry.
:lol:
yes you are the exception , most have it made by others , didn't mean to rock your bot simply pointing out a fact ,hope when theres' a cock up you rewind twice so its going in the right direction ;)
NO wrong, we own the tools to our cable, it is made in the UK, not China or standard cable bought over the counter as lighting cable, unique to us, sorry.
Just shows you the danger of preaching absolutes - someone's bound to pop up and bite you on the bum! ;)
Marco.
and big thumbs up to owning all the tools for your manufacturing process , must have been bloody expensive in the beggining buying a copper draw down etc ., bloody big proccess cable making
ColinWonfor
26-05-2012, 18:14
It was hell for nearly 2 years to pay for the tools. But done now phew and new tool for new cable.
Anyhow a cousin sent me this, give it ago for fun.
7H15 M3554G3
>53RV35 7O PR0V3
>H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N
>D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5!
>1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5!
>1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG
>17 WA5 H4RD BU7
>N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3
>Y0UR M1ND 1S
>R34D1NG 17
>4U70M471C4LLY
>W17H 0U7 3V3N
>7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17,
>B3 PROUD! 0NLY
>C3R741N P30PL3 C4N
>R3AD 7H15.
>PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F
>U C4N R34D 7H15.
> :eyebrows:
Yes the mind is very good at filling in the gaps and in seeing patterns.
Witness the missing vowels on some road markings - the mind fills them in naturally.
WOStantonCS100
27-05-2012, 00:04
single ended (ie RCA) cables using balanced cable geometry with the shield connected to ground at the source end ony and left floating at the other end. Reason for that: To shunt unwanted noise to source chassis ground leaving the conductors free to carry the signal and not ground current noise. In reality single ended circuits have no common mode noise rejection so they will still pick up noise, but this design can be advantageous in helping prevent or minimise the effects of ground loop hum. Best used as marked but can sometimes sound better t'uther way around...just make sure to use both the same way or it defeats the object of the design!
+1
This is how I construct my own tri-braided IC's (being overly intolerant of hum) and considering there is no shielding, in the traditional sense. :)
It was hell for nearly 2 years to pay for the tools. But done now phew and new tool for new cable.
Anyhow a cousin sent me this, give it ago for fun.
7H15 M3554G3
>53RV35 7O PR0V3
>H0W 0UR M1ND5 C4N
>D0 4M4Z1NG 7H1NG5!
>1MPR3551V3 7H1NG5!
>1N 7H3 B3G1NN1NG
>17 WA5 H4RD BU7
>N0W, 0N 7H15 LIN3
>Y0UR M1ND 1S
>R34D1NG 17
>4U70M471C4LLY
>W17H 0U7 3V3N
>7H1NK1NG 4B0U7 17,
>B3 PROUD! 0NLY
>C3R741N P30PL3 C4N
>R3AD 7H15.
>PL3453 F0RW4RD 1F
>U C4N R34D 7H15.
> :eyebrows:
This just proves that we were all abducted by aliens and implanted with "auto-correct". :eyebrows:
I've previously also dismissed the idea of directional cables on the basis that an audio signal is always an alternating current, and consequently the signal travels back and forth in the conductor. But some years ago i was informed that this is not the complete truth.
The signal is an alternating current that flows in different direction, but the ENERGY is always forced from the source towards the target, in one direction only. And the energy is not travelling within the conductors either i have been informed, rather as an energy field surrounding the conductors, more or less in theinsulation area.
Of course this may be all bull shite, and i can not prove this is correct, and probably not you either... To me though, the reasoning makes sense, and i usually orientate my cabling in the direction he manufacturer ordinates.
TBH the differences in my system are more of a psychological nature; I am content with knowing the cables are properly connected. :)
However, the swedish cable manufacturer TommyJenving, r.i.p., did manage to reveal measurable differences concerning cable direction.
This can be read about on his brand, Supra, website:
http://www.jenving.se/?p=direct
Br Mike
I've previously also dismissed the idea of directional cables on the basis that an audio signal is always an alternating current, and consequently the signal travels back and forth in the conductor. But some years ago i was informed that this is not the complete truth.
The signal is an alternating current that flows in different direction, but the ENERGY is always forced from the source towards the target, in one direction only. And the energy is not travelling within the conductors either i have been informed, rather as an energy field surrounding the conductors, more or less in theinsulation area.
Of course this may be all bull shite, and i can not prove this is correct, and probably not you either... To me though, the reasoning makes sense, and i usually orientate my cabling in the direction he manufacturer ordinates.
TBH the differences in my system are more of a psychological nature; I am content with knowing the cables are properly connected. :)
However, the swedish cable manufacturer TommyJenving, r.i.p., did manage to reveal measurable differences concerning cable direction.
This can be read about on his brand, Supra, website:
http://www.jenving.se/?p=direct
Br Mike
Who did the 'informing', what is their authority and do you hear directions ?
BTH K10A
27-05-2012, 10:57
nope , made the bloody stuff , my I/c's are 99pence stuff :)the only others i think i can hear a "difference" for the better are van damne , but only a thought , mick (Mmar) well known around these parts sold his £5000 set and will not return my van damnes' :( oh they were 99P free delivery from fleabay , would not bid any more :D
Yes I have to agree. I've found Van Damme cables to be well made and very reasonably priced. Other very expensive cables I've tried have never offered any improvement over them.
if any of you have any doubts at all about cable directionality having some sort of an effect, may I suggest you get some Chord Solid interconnects to try? get one of the channels "wrong" and the whole stereo image shifts one way or the other. I noticed it myself but final "proof" came with a friend who bought a set and asked me what was wrong with the way the vocals shifted over. Reversing one of the pair of cables cured it completely.
I use loads of Van Damme cables and although I think they're slightly directional, it's not a night-and-day difference so I don't lose any sleep over it...
Indeed... I've not found one cable yet where when used one particular way round, the music doesn't sound more natural and 'right'.
The 'wrong' way round always seems to result in music sounding 'out of focus', to the extent that I don't 'connect' with it in the same way, thus it bores me rather quickly.
Swapping the cable(s) round, however, nearly always fixes this, where a subtle shift in the presentational emphasis makes the musical performance more convincing and believable.... :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
27-05-2012, 13:38
Indeed... I've not found one cable yet where used one particular way round, the music doesn't sound more natural and 'right'.
The 'wrong' way round always seems to result in music sounding 'out of focus', to the extent that I don't 'connect' with it in the same way, thus it bores me rather quickly.
Swapping the cable(s) round, however, nearly always fixes this, where a subtle shift in presentational emphasis makes the musical performance more convincing and believable.... :)
Marco.
+ 1
Agreed though there are some that it is pretty subtle and others where the difference is much greater.
+ 1
Agreed though there are some that it is pretty subtle and others where the difference is much greater.
agreed in fact imho other "jewellery" cables remove some of the detail / dynamics / music / life :(
I've previously also dismissed the idea of directional cables on the basis that an audio signal is always an alternating current, and consequently the signal travels back and forth in the conductor. But some years ago i was informed that this is not the complete truth.
The signal is an alternating current that flows in different direction, but the ENERGY is always forced from the source towards the target, in one direction only. And the energy is not travelling within the conductors either i have been informed, rather as an energy field surrounding the conductors, more or less in theinsulation area.
Of course this may be all bull shite, and i can not prove this is correct, and probably not you either... To me though, the reasoning makes sense, and i usually orientate my cabling in the direction he manufacturer ordinates.
TBH the differences in my system are more of a psychological nature; I am content with knowing the cables are properly connected. :)
However, the swedish cable manufacturer TommyJenving, r.i.p., did manage to reveal measurable differences concerning cable direction.
This can be read about on his brand, Supra, website:
http://www.jenving.se/?p=direct
Br Mike
It is BS. The signal travels down the conductor, not surrounding it. Any current flowing in a conductor creates an electrical field around it and I suspect that this is where the confusion may be, but the signal is carried in the conductors, it IS alternating and there IS concrete proof in science to confirm that in AC audio signals, there is no such thing as directionality unless a diode is placed within the signal path!
I don't and won't discount the fact that some people do hear differences when reversing cables, but there could be other reasons for this. Removing a cable and reversing it involves pulling the connectors out from sockets which does in fact help clean them up a little. Putting them back in could make a minuscule difference or it could be possible that they simply make better electrical contact because the fit may be slightly better one way round.
Of course other things make audible differences too. An increase in room temperature and humidity alter the mechanical properties of some speaker cones and of cartridge suspension systems. That happens without intervention. If you choose to change where you sit listening to music, that will cause a change as you move either off axis or closer towards it.
There's many reasons why things can sound different, but I'm afraid cable directionality is a myth. Of course many will challenge that point of view, and happy for people to do that, but no-one to date, in the industry or amongst enthusiasts has ever produced credible evidence to support that myth.
It is BS. The signal travels down the conductor, not surrounding it. Any current flowing in a conductor creates an electrical field around it and I suspect that this is where the confusion may be, but the signal is carried in the conductors, it IS alternating and there IS concrete proof in science to confirm that in AC audio signals, there is no such thing as directionality unless a diode is placed within the signal path!
I don't and won't discount the fact that some people do hear differences when reversing cables, but there could be other reasons for this. Removing a cable and reversing it involves pulling the connectors out from sockets which does in fact help clean them up a little. Putting them back in could make a minuscule difference or it could be possible that they simply make better electrical contact because the fit may be slightly better one way round.
Of course other things make audible differences too. An increase in room temperature and humidity alter the mechanical properties of some speaker cones and of cartridge suspension systems. That happens without intervention. If you choose to change where you sit listening to music, that will cause a change as you move either off axis or closer towards it.
There's many reasons why things can sound different, but I'm afraid cable directionality is a myth. Of course many will challenge that point of view, and happy for people to do that, but no-one to date, in the industry or amongst enthusiasts has ever produced credible evidence to support that myth.
+1
These threads are always contentious and I'm not entering in to it other than to say I think its wrong to think of a music signal as 'AC'...this implies (to me anyway) a symmetrical signal, equal in amplitude and frequency on the positive and negative going cycle.
Instruments are not like that, if you look at the component make up of say a wind instrument, in this example an Oboe the overall make up of a single note looks to be symmetrical but under closer examination it clearly has asymmetrical components in it which would mean the positive and negative signals are not equal and in fact a bias exists, even if briefly, to one direction of signal flow.
Now, I don't know or understand if there's anything to this but it does exist and even Norman Crowhurst in his Audio Measurements book from the 1950's makes note of it and warns the tester to look for it and even designs a way to test for it. Maybe the type of material people listen to has some bearing of wether there is indeed something in the cable that asymmetrical material highlights. :scratch:
This is part of an Oboe single note, there is an asymmetrical element to it:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/oboe.jpg
Hi Paul,
It is BS.
No need for the provocative language. We try to avoid that sort of stuff here, and thus put things more constructively to people.
If you don't agree with something, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm sorry, I do object to being told in no uncertain terms that what I've heard genuinely time and time again, in all sorts of different contexts, is 'bullshit'. It *is*, most certainly, to my ears, the sonic results of cable directionality, which I've heard, nothing else, as I always remove as many variables as possible from the equation, before conducting such tests.
I don't and won't discount the fact that some people do hear differences when reversing cables, but there could be other reasons for this. Removing a cable and reversing it involves pulling the connectors out from sockets which does in fact help clean them up a little.
All contacts are always thoroughly cleaned with Deox-it, before I conduct my listening tests, so cross that one off as a possible explanation.
Putting them back in could make a minuscule difference or it could be possible that they simply make better electrical contact because the fit may be slightly better one way round.
All my plugs and sockets are identical (from the same manufacturer), and thus have the same mechanical fit, but yes, there is a miniscule chance that what you're referring to could have a tiny influence on the result, but even if that were the case, I'm convinced that there's more to it than that.
Of course other things make audible differences too. An increase in room temperature and humidity alter the mechanical properties of some speaker cones and of cartridge suspension systems. That happens without intervention. If you choose to change where you sit listening to music, that will cause a change as you move either off axis or closer towards it.
All listening tests are conducted in as far as possible the same room temperature and humidity conditions, and in the same listening position - the latter I'm particularly careful of, as I know it can skew results.
There's many reasons why things can sound different, but I'm afraid cable directionality is a myth. Of course many will challenge that point of view, and happy for people to do that, but no-one to date, in the industry or amongst enthusiasts has ever produced credible evidence to support that myth.
That's your view, and you're entitled to it, but based on extensive listening experience in this area, my view is different, and I need no 'evidence' other than what my ears clearly tell me (after satisfying my usual subjective testing criteria). The fact is, science cannot currently 'prove' every effect that we genuinely hear in audio.
Like I said, you're entitled to your views, but please don't refer to a phenomenon I have tested at length, and which I genuinely believe in, as "BS", as I find such language rather rudely dismissive of my valid experiences. Just simply agree to disagree, otherwise you and I will fall out, and that's the last thing I'd want to happen! :cool:
Marco.
bogle111
27-05-2012, 17:10
Every now and then I reverse direction. This is really to stop them sounding rather "laid back" or relaxed. Just want to wake the buggers up a bit by sending the signal the wrong way.:eyebrows:
Thinking about it,
do you feel the age of a cable will make any difference?
Apologies for going off topic, but felt this was relevant.
Who did the 'informing', what is their authority and do you hear directions ?
A friend with similar interests who has got lots of studies under his belt explained this to me. He studies electronic engineering in the field of power distribution to households and industries.
But, as i stated in my post, i really cant hear much of a difference in my system. Room acoustics and different cables affects the SQ lots more than the direction.
However, my point is: Dont dismiss the idea, give it a try? I wont cost you anything more than a challenge of your theories? ;)
BR /Mike
Every now and then I reverse direction. This is really to stop them sounding rather "laid back" or relaxed. Just want to wake the buggers up a bit by sending the signal the wrong way.:eyebrows:
Thinking about it,
do you feel the age of a cable will make any difference?
Apologies for going off topic, but felt this was relevant.
yes i do , the copper in my system is millions of years old , but on a serious note pure copper 50 years ago has more "copper" than say pure copper of 5 years ago
Reid Malenfant
27-05-2012, 17:45
but on a serious note pure copper 50 years ago has more "copper" than say pure copper of 5 years ago
:scratch:
Can you explain this please :)
A friend with similar interests who has got lots of studies under his belt explained this to me. He studies electronic engineering in the field of power distribution to households and industries.
But, as i stated in my post, i really cant hear much of a difference in my system. Room acoustics and different cables affects the SQ lots more than the direction.
However, my point is: Dont dismiss the idea, give it a try? I wont cost you anything more than a challenge of your theories? ;)
BR /Mike
i've never dissmissed it , simply the conductor has no clue , but the dialect surrounding it is the main factor for "hearing" minute differences ,sheathing is made up of many many different forms , so a simple 2mm copper conductor can have a diff flavour depending on its enclosure , but again imho mostly for the worse
Hi Paul,
No need for the provocative language. We try to avoid that sort of stuff here, and thus put things more constructively to people.
If you don't agree with something, you're entitled to your opinion, but I'm sorry, I do object to being told in no uncertain terms that what I've heard genuinely time and time again, in all sorts of different contexts, is 'bullshit'. It *is*, most certainly, to my ears, the sonic results of cable directionality, which I've heard, nothing else, as I always remove as many variables as possible from the equation, before conducting such tests.
All contacts are always thoroughly cleaned with Deox-it, before I conduct my listening tests, so cross that one off as a possible explanation.
All my plugs and sockets are identical (from the same manufacturer), and thus have the same mechanical fit, but yes, there is a miniscule chance that what you're referring to could have a tiny influence on the result, but even if that were the case, I'm convinced that there's more to it than that.
All listening tests are conducted in as far as possible the same room temperature and humidity conditions, and in the same listening position - the latter I'm particularly careful of, as I know it can skew results.
That's your view, and you're entitled to it, but based on extensive listening experience in this area, my view is different, and I need no 'evidence' other than what my ears clearly tell me (after satisfying my usual subjective testing criteria). The fact is, science cannot currently 'prove' every effect that we genuinely hear in audio.
Like I said, you're entitled to your views, but please don't refer to a phenomenon I have tested at length, and which I genuinely believe in, as "BS", as I find such language rather rudely dismissive of my valid experiences. Just simply agree to disagree, otherwise you and I will fall out, and that's the last thing I'd want to happen! :cool:
Marco.
Marco,
I wasn't trying to be offensive, just repeating what was said (ie "of course it could be BS"), so was only paraphrasing what had already been said.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but as an engineer, I don;t work with opinion, I have to work with available science. I have already said that if some people hear a difference, then that's fine but the point being that I have yet to see any evidence to support directionality of cables by those espousing it...merely opinion.
Hi Mike,
However, the swedish cable manufacturer TommyJenving, r.i.p., did manage to reveal measurable differences concerning cable direction.
This can be read about on his brand, Supra, website:
http://www.jenving.se/?p=direct
Most interesting. I particularly liked (and agreed with) this:
Simplistic electronics theory says there is no ‘directionality’ in conductors, but assumes conductors are perfectly isomorphic.
That's the problem with so much, so-called, 'irrefutable scientific evidence', in audio, as often it is no such thing, simply because the theories put forward or conclusions reached, are too simplistic and lack sufficient in-depth analysis and the applying of lateral thinking.
Some people, of a staunch objectivist mindset, need to accept that current scientific understanding, in audio, is NOT a completed or conclusive entity. Here are some quotes from discussions on 'scientific facts', in relation to that, I've read elsewhere, which you may find interesting:
It's especially disappointing when the banner of 'science' - ie, intelligent investigation and experiment - is stolen by a mob carrying pitchforks. At every level - from theorists through designers and reviewers, down to listener: differences between measurement and perception are unresolved and still debated. Attempts to claim an intellectual high ground in the name of objectivity are futile. The brain doesn't have a noise floor; the ear is not a A-D converter; the 'impartial listener' is an oxymoron.
And:
Established science is validated by consensus, rarely by a direct and immediate meeting with the truth. What is held to be true by the hoi polloi is first subjected to peer-review by publication in scientific journals. When there is a consensus in the scientific community, their respective pedagogues take over. Often the process is quite political. Scientific 'truth' is often therefore established by a 'system of government', which polls those eligible to express its approval.
I agree wholeheartedly with much of that, especially the bit in bold. In fact, I may make it into my new sig :) Moreover, have you read my current one? It relates perfectly to this discussion!
Marco.
Marco,
I wasn't trying to be offensive, just repeating what was said (ie "of course it could be BS"), so was only paraphrasing what had already been said.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but as an engineer, I don;t work with opinion, I have to work with available science. I have already said that if some people hear a difference, then that's fine but the point being that I have yet to see any evidence to support directionality of cables by those espousing it...merely opinion.
That's fine, Paul. Read my post above. You may find it interesting...
As for 'evidence', after satisfying my own (extensive) subjective testing, with audio, I need no further 'evidence' other than what my ears tell me. It's as simple as that :)
Marco.
That's fine, Paul. Read my post above. You may find it interesting...
As for 'evidence', after satisfying my own (extensive) subjective testing, with audio, I need no further 'evidence' other than what my ears tell me. It's as simple as that :)
Marco.
There's nothing wrong or contentious about anyone coming to their own conclusions Marco, and I am in no way decrying your own experiences but the point being made was that I've yet to see any factual evidence for directionality. With all due respect to you and others holding similar views, subjective testing in its own right is not the same thing as providing evidence, but as you say, what you hear matters and not what evidence points towards, so it is perfectly valid for you to be comfortable with your own conclusions and that is not at issue.
There seems to have been suggestion in some of the posts that anyone holding a view based on current scientific evidence is somehow over simplifying a phenomenon and that in doing so, that somehow makes that person lacking in intelligence or understanding. I suspect the problem isn't with what's already known about and what isn't, it's about how it's expressed. Whether there is any truth in directionality or not, the suggestion alone does not explain how cables can be manufactured, tested and sold as directional, (I do not know of any manufacturing technique that introduces directionality into a signal cable designed for alternating current signals), and I would be very interested in learning just what testing is undertaken to prove such directionality.
This, hopefully, can be seen not as being closed minded at all, but open minded to the suggestion providing there is sufficient plausible explanation to back it up, and that is something that seems to be lacking from a commercial perspective, not a personal subjective perspective. Perhaps best if I bow out of this one now :ner:
There's nothing wrong or contentious about anyone coming to their own conclusions Marco, and I am in no way decrying your own experiences but the point being made was that I've yet to see any factual evidence for directionality.
I'm afraid that this is the crux of our dispute, and that of 100s of others on forums elsewhere, whenever the contentious subject comes up of debating the validity and accuracy of our subjective experiences.
Where I suspect we disagree is what constitutes as "factual evidence". I simply don't see your definition of it as such, or rather, more accurately, such "evidence" as being irrefutable.
I contend that not all scientific "factual evidence" is currently complete or indeed conclusive, and thus simply the result of what we know so far, I.E. not everything - and part of that is PROPERLY understanding phenomena in audio, such as cable directionality.
Marco.
i've never dissmissed it , simply the conductor has no clue , but the dialect surrounding it is the main factor for "hearing" minute differences ,sheathing is made up of many many different forms , so a simple 2mm copper conductor can have a diff flavour depending on its enclosure , but again imho mostly for the worse
The copper has 'no clue', neither does the dielectric insulation. Both are important to the overall property of the cable.
[In reply to another comment posted here]
The theory of conduction does not simply assume the conductors are homogeneous and isotropic. It does show that electron scattering by impurities, grain junctions and crystal boundaries is minute compared with the scattering due to atomic collision and can be completely ignored. I could prove this with some simple maths and figures but that probably wouldn't help.
Reid Malenfant
27-05-2012, 19:17
I contend that not all scientific "factual evidence" is currently complete or indeed conclusive, and thus simply the result of what we know so far, I.E. not everything - and part of that is PROPERLY understanding phenomena in audio, such as cable directionality.
Marco.
Marco, you won't be surprised that this is the case for everything!
Nothing is ever really proven, only bad theories happen to be superceded when new evidence is forthcoming.
Take for example Newtons theory of gravitation, this was excepted as the norm on how celestial bodies moved as well as other things in relation to each other until Einstein came up with the theory of general relativity.
Note that it's still a theory, though it does happen to be the theory that best fits how these things work - for now :eyebrows:
Mr Kipling
27-05-2012, 19:23
Howa' man lads! . . . Gedda grip. . . Caalm down! Caalm down!
If you accept the fact that some cables do a better job than others at shuffling the electrons from A to B, is it really so hard to imagine that the journey might be less of an uphill struggle one way round? Little in life is perfect and I don't think cables are. I'm sure that if you could see with you own eyes electron flow along a conductor with the music signal being as complex as it is it would be a fascinating sight to behold. In the late '70s Hitachi were one of the first to take a look what was going on with cables. As far as I can remember one thing they found was that if the crystal structure of the copper was elongated (long grain) and made more linear, it made life for the electrons more easier. Purer copper also meant fewer gaps which again helped with transfer. In the early '80s there was loads of research done when the great Multi-strand v Single-core war raged. One thing that was found with multi-core cable was a phenomena called 'diodic contact'. Certain points where the individual strands touched exhibited diode-like behaviour at a low level (don't ask me how it was measured). This might go some way to explain directionality - but then it doesn't explain why solid-core cables might also be directional.
There's any amount of 'phenomena' that defies rational and logical explaination. What about Meridian's claim that a cdr disc sounded better than the original and that a copy of a copy sounded better again? This was put forward in the '80s when they were developing their first domestic CDRs. They were in a better position than most to say if it was true or not. What about the 'green pen' phenomena? At one time some took to drawing a line on the edge of cds as it was said to improve sound. Does anyone still do it? What about freezing cds? But hey! Why stop at cds? Why don't I throw in me amp and cd player as well!?! Some have! The list goes on and on.
Going back to directionality what you get is focus - better or worse, as some have said; not unlike how absolute phase can sometimes make a difference. The difference can appear quite small but the focus can shift what appears to be a certain aspect of the mix, which can then appear to change the very nature of a recording. It can be quite odd to make sense of to be honest.
Kind Regards,
Stephen
Brilliant post, Stephen. I concur completely with you.
If you accept the fact that some cables do a better job than others at shuffling the electrons from A to B, is it really so hard to imagine that the journey might be less of an uphill struggle one way round? Little in life is perfect and I don't think cables are. I'm sure that if you could see with you own eyes electron flow along a conductor with the music signal being as complex as it is it would be a fascinating sight to behold.
Yup. What I don't buy is the misguided notion that any 'scientific fact', in audio or otherwise, is an automatically conclusive thing.
In my view, to believe that is to be guilty of grossly simplistic thinking. I also dislike the 'black or white' thinking and the desire for 'certainty', favoured by most 'objectivists'. Life is uncertain, so accept it. Seeking comfort from absolutes rarely leads to arriving at any genuine truth.
Furthermore, geunine scientists (and also proper, open-minded and genuinely inquisitive engineers) accept that 'scientific fact' is not an irrefutable entity and fully embrace that we, the human race, are continually on a learning curve, in all areas of our existence. To profess to 'know it all', only serves to highlight how little one actually does know.
Accepting that fact is one of the benefits of having a genuinely open and enquiring mind.
Marco.
Just looked at the TQ black interconnects I am currently listening to, they have 2 arrows on, does that mean the arrows should point from the amp to the cd player or the other way round? There are no instructions with the cables so would the average punter know which direction the arrows should be? Hi-Fi is about listening to music, how easy is it to listen with the cables one way round and then listen with them the other way round, if one sounds better than the other result!
Let's have a nice picture to remind ourselves what it is we are debating....:)
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt309/themainsman/Tellurium%20Q/a531f8a2.jpg
They should point from source to amp Dave ;)
They should point from source to amp Dave ;)
Th:)x
Th:)x
Rather than blindly follow the manufacture's suggestion why not experiment for yourself? You could well find you prefer the cables in the opposite direction. Finding out is all part of the fun.
Have people checked for the preferred orientation of the cartridge leads in their headshells? :rolleyes:
Rare Bird
27-05-2012, 20:23
They should point from source to amp Dave ;)
Why! are they Pseudo balanced or summert?
Just looked at the TQ black interconnects I am currently listening to, they have 2 arrows on, does that mean the arrows should point from the amp to the cd player or the other way round?
The arrows are intended to go in the direction of the source signal, dude :)
Marco.
Dunno Andre, Dave wanted to know in which direction the arrows on directional cables should be pointing, so I told him. I don't claim to be a Foo Guru. It's a bit like walking under ladders, some do, some don't. Me? I'm bloody minded so at some point I'll be clonked by a pot of paint no doubt... :eyebrows:
Have people checked for the preferred orientation of the cartridge leads in their headshells?
They're usually marked, I find. At least, the quality ones tend to be. The end of the leads with the black 'sleeving' on, is the end which connects to the headshell, and the ends with colour-coding, connect to the cartridge, as illustrated here:
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7013/cartridgeleads.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/cartridgeleads.jpg/)
Rather than blindly follow the manufacture's suggestion why not experiment for yourself? You could well find you prefer the cables in the opposite direction. Finding out is all part of the fun.
Indeed. I never just accept that the manufacturer's preferred orientation is correct; I always test it first. However, most of the time it is correct :)
Marco.
Marco, you won't be surprised that this is the case for everything!
Nothing is ever really proven, only bad theories happen to be superceded when new evidence is forthcoming.
Take for example Newtons theory of gravitation, this was excepted as the norm on how celestial bodies moved as well as other things in relation to each other until Einstein came up with the theory of general relativity.
Note that it's still a theory, though it does happen to be the theory that best fits how these things work - for now :eyebrows:
Spot on, Mark. 'Best fit theory', sums it up nicely - that's ALL most 'scientific facts' are!
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
27-05-2012, 20:52
Spot on, Mark. 'Best fit theory', sums it up nicely - that's ALL most 'scientific facts' are!
Marco.
No, & yes :eyebrows:, but they are not scientific facts! Only that they fit the present best theory of how things work...
It wouldn't surprise me if we never know the facts about anything, as a race we appear to be too busy arguing with each other :rfl:
Mr Kipling
27-05-2012, 20:52
Get weaving lads (and lasses?) ! http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diycableshtml
Here's another. Jimmy Hughes used to use a humidifier to help get better sound. How? It makes the air more dense (!) and so there is more efficient coupling between speakers and ears. Years later I used to get the iron out! It worked for me!
Kind Regards,
Stephen
No, & yes :eyebrows:, but they are not scientific facts! Only that they fit the present best theory of how things work...
Yup - that'll do me! :exactly:
And hence why said 'best theories' should always be open to further scrutiny.
Marco.
Mr Kipling
27-05-2012, 21:03
Sorry. Forgot the . after diycables.
Kind Reards,
Stephen
walpurgis
27-05-2012, 22:12
Get weaving lads (and lasses?) ! http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diycableshtml
Here's another. Jimmy Hughes used to use a humidifier to help get better sound. How? It makes the air more dense (!) and so there is more efficient coupling between speakers and ears. Years later I used to get the iron out! It worked for me!
Kind Regards,
Stephen
Surely, regardless of a possibly raised humidity, the air density will remain the same, as this would be dictated by the ambient atmospheric pressure? I seem to recall Jimmy Hughes propounding some rather strange ideas. Geoff.
Mr Kipling
27-05-2012, 22:39
Surely, regardless of a possibly raised humidity, the air density will remain the same, as this would be dictated by the ambient atmospheric pressure? I seem to recall Jimmy Hughes propounding some rather strange ideas. Geoff.
OK Geoff. The increase in humidity couples the soundwave to the ears more effectively. Surely simpley because Jimmy's ideas seemed a bit strange didn't mean to say that they weren't valid?
Kind Regards,
Stephen
walpurgis
27-05-2012, 22:46
OK Geoff. The increase in humidity couples the soundwave to the ears more effectively. Surely simpley because Jimmy's ideas seemed a bit strange didn't mean to say that they weren't valid?
Kind Regards,
Stephen
OK, how does this 'coupling' work? And, did Jimmy have (any) valid ideas?
He did become rather 'Beltist' (and 'loopy-loo') in the end. I respect Jimmy in many ways, but I have no time whatsoever for that PB crap, as it gives the subjective side of audio a bad name.
Marco.
As I understand it, soundwaves travel better through a denser medium and seeing as a humid atmosphere is denser than a dry one then I guess there must be some advantage. That's why sound carries further on a foggy day ;)
walpurgis
27-05-2012, 23:31
As I understand it, soundwaves travel better through a denser medium and seeing as a humid atmosphere is denser than a dry one then I guess there must be some advantage. That's why sound carries further on a foggy day ;)
I assume a humidifier cannot raise the local atmospheric pressure, in which case density will surely remain the same.
Fog is small suspended water globules (ultra fine rain, or ground level cloud) and until evaporated into the atmosphere has no infuence on humidity believe it or not.
Does sound carry further on a foggy day?
Geoff.
Does sound carry further on a foggy day?
Yes...
Think I'll try reversing the hosepipe when I wash my car. See if it makes the car cleaner.
Is there a preferred orientation for all the resistors and capacitors used in the audio electronics? :scratch:
If I remove a tungsten filament light bulb from its bayonet fitting and refit it the other way round, that is reverse the orientation of the filament, will the quality of light change?
WOStantonCS100
28-05-2012, 04:31
Is there a preferred orientation for all the resistors and capacitors used in the audio electronics? :scratch:
Polarized capacitors... you betcha. They'll most likely be marked as such, (+) and (-), or just a (-) indicator. If not polarized, the manufacture, depending on the capacitor, will still have a recommended orientation. I don't worry about orientation so much with resistors other than, generally, make sure all resistors in a line are "facing" the same direction. This is pretty easy to do with standard colorband resistors.
StanleyB
28-05-2012, 06:45
Why are so many Hi-Fi speaker cables and interconnects specifed and marked as being directional? This must be a myth.
Is there any chance of you expanding on the technical side of your argument with regards to the myth part?
StanleyB
28-05-2012, 06:47
Think I'll try reversing the hosepipe when I wash my car. See if it makes the car cleaner.
Is there a preferred orientation for all the resistors and capacitors used in the audio electronics? :scratch:
If I remove a tungstan filament light bulb from its bayonet fitting and refit it the other way round, that is reverse the orientation of the filament, will the quality of light change?
Have you forgotten the cork screw rule with regards to electricity and magnetism? Did you know for instance that water swirls the opposite way in the Southern hemisphere, compared to how it swirls in the Northern hemisphere?
StanleyB
28-05-2012, 06:49
As I understand it, soundwaves travel better through a denser medium [] It depends on the frequency of the sound. Submarines have to use very low frequency transmissions in order to penetrate that wall of water.
Get weaving lads (and lasses?) ! http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diycableshtml
Here's another. Jimmy Hughes used to use a humidifier to help get better sound. How? It makes the air more dense (!) and so there is more efficient coupling between speakers and ears. Years later I used to get the iron out! It worked for me!
Kind Regards,
Stephen
Simple explanation here... His apartment in the Barbican Centre had/has underfloor heating, which dried the atmosphere quite noticeably. As with all things Jimmy, the solution was maybe a bit overdone, but it was always an attempt to get the listening experience as comfortable as possible.
Is there a preferred orientation for all the resistors and capacitors used in the audio electronics? :scratch:
Course there is, because the writing on the components always looks neater if they're all the same way round. Don't forget that many capacitors are polarised too :)
Course there is, because the writing on the components always looks neater if they're all the same way round. Don't forget that many capacitors are polarised too :)
Haha - I was assuming unpolarised (non-electrolytic) capacitors. :lol:
Don't forget, too, that different rules apply on a Tuesday.
Marco.
Have you forgotten the cork screw rule with regards to electricity and magnetism? Did you know for instance that water swirls the opposite way in the Southern hemisphere, compared to how it swirls in the Northern hemisphere?
Does that mean Fleming's left-hand rule becomes the right-hand rule in the Southern hemisphere? And are the colours of the rainbow in reverse order?
Don't forget, too, that different rules apply on a Tuesday.
Marco.
Never could cope with Tuesdays! :scratch:
I think we should rename the Boomtown Rats song at once!
o2I84-A9duY
Marco.
kininigin
28-05-2012, 10:01
Marco, you won't be surprised that this is the case for everything!
Nothing is ever really proven, only bad theories happen to be superceded when new evidence is forthcoming.
Take for example Newtons theory of gravitation, this was excepted as the norm on how celestial bodies moved as well as other things in relation to each other until Einstein came up with the theory of general relativity.
Note that it's still a theory, though it does happen to be the theory that best fits how these things work - for now :eyebrows:
The quote in my sig suggests otherwise :eyebrows:
The cables i have are directional and are used in the way they are indicated.
Do they make a difference the other way? Don't know,don't care.
They sound great as they are and i don't think about them at all,i'd rather just listen to some music than be round the back of my rats nest,swapping around cables!!
Hi Darren,
They sound great as they are and i don't think about them at all,i'd rather just listen to some music than be round the back of my rats nest,swapping around cables!!
Indeed. The trick, however, is to 'suss' which is the right way round, use 'em that way, then leave 'em well alone and just enjoy the music!
At least, that's what I do ;)
Marco.
kininigin
28-05-2012, 10:18
Your probaly right,but i'm far less fastidious than you :)
I like the 'lash it up as quickly as possible and if it sounds ok,it'll do approach'
I've still got alot to learn :lol:
Indeed... I've not found one cable yet where when used one particular way round, the music doesn't sound more natural and 'right'.
The 'wrong' way round always seems to result in music sounding 'out of focus', to the extent that I don't 'connect' with it in the same way, thus it bores me rather quickly.
Swapping the cable(s) round, however, nearly always fixes this, where a subtle shift in sonic emphasis makes the musical performance more convincing and believable.... :)
Marco.
Wow. I think your system must be hypersensitive to render music so it bores you by having a cable the wrong way round. Glad I've got mine I just play the music and enjoy. Best of luck with that gear.
I thought Newtonian Mechanics still worked fine for phenomena it was supposed to explain.
Doesn’t the same apply to electrical current?
Isn’t the time to start developing more refined theories when what we observe can’t be explained by the theories we already have?
Right tools for the right job and all that.
To the best of my knowledge there isn’t enough weight of evidence to suggest any wire is “directional” with audio applications so the likelihood of further investigation based on the beliefs and subjective experience of a few audiophiles isn’t likely.
It’s fine I suppose for people to say this or that is what they hear, but when these observations are put to any kind of meaningful test those who say they can hear it, cant, and nor can those who set up the tests. Very hard to investigate something to do with audio that nobody can demonstrate exists.
As for the Lorentz right hand rule: strangely if you turn the wire around the rule still works.
(currently reversing all internal speaker cab wire, amp hook up wire, component legs, circuit board track……ffs!)
Wow. I think your system must be hypersensitive to render music so it bores you by having a cable the wrong way round. Glad I've got mine I just play the music and enjoy. Best of luck with that gear.
Lol - very good! Perhaps, for the benefit of the pedantic, I should've written it, thus:
The 'wrong' way round always seems to result in music sounding 'out of focus', to the extent that I don't 'connect' with it in the same way, thus it bores me rather quickly, in comparison with how much music involves me when the directionality is correct.
Happier now?
It certainly better reflects the reality that I enjoy, so thanks for allowing me to make the correction! :)
Marco.
Hi John,
To the best of my knowledge there isn’t enough weight of evidence to suggest any wire is “directional” with audio applications so the likelihood of further investigation based on the beliefs and subjective experience of a few audiophiles isn’t likely.
It’s fine I suppose for people to say this or that is what they hear, but when these observations are put to any kind of meaningful test those who say they can hear it, cant, and nor can those who set up the tests. Very hard to investigate something to do with audio that nobody can demonstrate exists.
I'd be very confident of sitting anyone down with a genuinely open mind, in front of my system, playing music that is familiar to them, and successfully demonstrating the sonic effect of achieving correct cable directionality - only briefly, mind, as otherwise it might eat too much into our beer drinking time! :eyebrows:
If you trust your ears (and your hearing acuity is good enough), and the system has the requisite resolution, in order to highlight the differences, believe me, identifying and analysing these things successfully isn't a problem! :)
Marco.
I believe it’s been tried before Marco with this and a number of other often debated audio matters without a great deal of success.
However, you do bring up a couple of interesting points.
Firstly, we don’t all have the same aural acuity, something often overlooked in these debates. While it’s fine for people to state this is what my experience tells me, it often seems to translate into this is how it is and the reason you cant hear it is………..
which is possibly as anti ethos as those who say its all total bollocks because science and measurement prove otherwise.
While it may well be true that the person hears these things it’s completely irrelevant to the collective reality if others cant when all means of persuasion and deliberate deceit are removed.
I know plenty of people who can hear things I can’t. The point is what they can hear is irrelevant if I can’t.
We have red lights to indicate danger because most of us see red where red is displayed.
There are a very few who see another colour. That doesn’t make the rest of us wrong.
Should I worry about this? No. It rather seems I fall in with the norm. Lets face it, some of us have to do it.
I hear stuff with my Hi Fi that others, when I mention it, look at me like I’m playing without a full deck and most definitely cant.
It’s very hard for any rational reasonably well educated person to deny that we don't all experience the world around us in exactly the same way. However, in order for society to function in a cooperative manner some collective objective reality is necessary.
Regarding the open mindedness; well I fail miserably, along with most others ime.
However, I’m quite happy to admit this and try to bear it in mind when making any evaluation.
All fair points, John... Perhaps then the sonic effect of achieving correct cable directionality is something we could demonstrate, in one of the 'workshops', at the AoS show?
I'd be more than up for that, using my system as a reference, and we could see what the general consensus was, in that respect :cool:
Marco.
To extend this a bit.
If there is a directional property to a length of wire that produces an audible effect then one either has to specify that this wire is in some way different from another wire or accept that this phenomenon may be true for all wire, in which case all wire in an audio system should have the correct alignment.
The true subjectivists and perfectionist is now left with the problem of ascertaining what the correct orientation for each piece of wire is.
This seems a bit of a non starter when one thinks about it. Of course the logical answer would be to make measurements (one must assume that the cable manufacturers have done this) However, if one is prepared to accept that measurement is capable of telling you which is the correct orientation of a piece of wire then it seems reasonable to accept it when measurement says it doesn’t matter.
Hi John,
I'd be very confident of sitting anyone down with a genuinely open mind, in front of my system, playing music that is familiar to them, and successfully demonstrating the sonic effect of achieving correct cable directionality - only briefly, mind, as otherwise it might eat too much into our beer drinking time! :eyebrows:
If you trust your ears (and your hearing acuity is good enough), and the system has the requisite resolution, in order to highlight the differences, believe me, identifying and analysing these things successfully isn't a problem! :)
Marco.
Well your first 'tough cookie' could well be me, when I come up to see you with the EMTs. :lol:
To be perfectly honest, if the cables are truly symmetric (and to my way of thinking, cannot be directional), I doubt if I do have the hearing acuity to hear such changes.
On the other hand, I have noticed small changes in reversing interconnects wired in the so-called semi-balanced configuration. In this situation I would expect a difference and can explain why.
Perhaps for me it's a case of "post hoc ergo propter hoc". :scratch:
However, we don't really want to spend too much time 'faffing about' when there is good wine to be drunk. ;)
Hi John,
If there is a directional property to a length of wire that produces an audible effect then one either has to specify that this wire is in some way different from another wire or accept that this phenomenon may be true for all wire, in which case all wire in an audio system should have the correct alignment.
Like I said earlier in the discussion, I've yet to encounter a cable which doesn't make music sound better used one way round than the other, therefore what you refer to above (and which I've emboldened) is entirely my position on the matter.
As far as my own system is concerned, every cable where it has been possible for me to analyse for the correct orientation, has been listened to at some length, in order to ascertain the correct directionality, and then left 'as is', without any further fiddling (before I get accused of spending my waking hours 'listening' to cables!) :rolleyes:
I've highlighted the part above before some tedious pedant comes along and starts talking about internal wiring in amplifiers, etc. No I haven't listened to that both ways; but it's certainly the case with all my analogue and digital interconnects, crossover wiring, cartridges wires, and loudspeaker cables. The difference between getting it right, and wrong, is always obvious, after conducting my usual subjective analysis process.
What I feel a lot of this stuff boils down to is how confident you are in the accuracy of your senses, and crucially, how much you require what you hear, and believe in, to be confirmed by 'scientific facts', or 'objective evidence'. Some people simply don't have enough faith in their senses, and so will always need 'official verification', to 'confirm' sonic effects that they've experienced in audio, in the form of objective 'proof'.
Me? I'm entirely relaxed about it all, even if sometimes I make a mistake and come to the wrong conclusion, or even if [shock, horror!] I occasionally imagine hearing something that doesn't exist. So what? We're all fallible human beings. I don't get the anxiety of some folk for a need for 'certainty' and 'proof' to exist for everything that they experience in life. It strikes me as a rather unhealthy and unnatural state of mind to be in... I'd HATE to be like that! :nono:
I make mistakes, like we all do, but rather than continually worrying about being 'fooled', I simply shrug off any mistakes made and use them as a learning curve - and to my benefit in future. If you don't make mistakes, you don't learn. It's as simple as that. As Einstein once famously said: "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new"! ;)
Marco.
All fair points, John... Perhaps then the sonic effect of achieving correct cable directionality is something we could demonstrate, in one of the 'workshops', at the AoS show?
I'd be more than up for that, using my system as a reference, and we could see what the general consensus was, in that respect :cool:
Marco.
What an excellent idea! It would very very interesting if a vox pop could be taken.
I'm sure some would say that blind tests are not conducive to producing trustworthy results, due to the stess imposed on the listener, so an informal (and perhaps un-scientific) demonstration will have to do.
It would be interesting if the cables chosen were truly symmetric in their construction and that a change is made, without the listener knowing which of the two orientations was in the 'preferred' direction.
Looking forward to it!
Regards
Hi Barry,
What an excellent idea! It would very very interesting if a vox pop could be taken.
I'm sure some would say that blind tests are not conducive to producing trustworthy results, due to the stess imposed on the listener, so an informal (and perhaps un-scientific) demonstration will have to do.
It would be interesting if the cables chosen were truly symmetric in their construction and that a change is made, without the listener knowing which of the two orientations was in the 'preferred' direction.
Looking forward to it!
We'll do it, then. I have no problem whatsoever in exposing my claims about cable directionality to the closest scrutiny. Some people like to hide in the safety of their comfort zones - not me!
For me, it's all about learning and making new discoveries, not automatically filing stuff under 'foo', simply because on the surface it doesn't fit with one's ingrained belief system or scientific sensibilities. I abhor that type of attitude, as it impedes genuine progress being made, not just in audio, but in all aspects of life.
Well your first 'tough cookie' could well be me, when I come up to see you with the EMTs.
To be perfectly honest, if the cables are truly symmetric (and to my way of thinking, cannot be directional), I doubt if I do have the hearing acuity to hear such changes.
Well, we'll see. The main challenge is in actually knowing what to listen for in the first place. If all you're listening for is prosaic considerations, such as changes in clarity or tonality, then you'll never 'get it' (as that will remain the same, regardless). It's about understanding what makes the music 'knit together' as a cohesive whole, and thus when it sounds in or out of 'sync'.
However, we don't really want to spend too much time 'faffing about' when there is good wine to be drunk ;)
Damned right! In that respect, I've also unearthed a superb Pomerol, which I found hiding away and neglected at the back of my wine rack. Now that rather sorry situation needs attending to urgently, doncha think? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Oddly enough Marco I agree with much of what you wrote in your last post (post before last now) but perhaps without such vehemence. ;)
I've never been much of a "norm" anything but probably leaning more to the sub side. :eyebrows:
I’m quite happy to accept the fallibility of science and measurement and I really wasn’t trying to be a pedantic twat with the “all wire” bit, just trying to adequately illustrate a point.
I stopped being interested in collective audio realities long ago and yes, I’ve done my bit of cable swapping. For me it hasn’t made a noticeable difference and despite the usual claims from some with a more subjective persuasion I don’t believe it has much to do with my lack of aural acuity or lack of system transparency.
I’m not actually against either an objective or subjective viewpoint. I’ve been involved in science and engineering for too long to take much as given and my subjective experiences often conflict with the collective interpretation of “what is”.
I am rather keen on a bit of logic and common sense though.
Where I run into problems is when it gets to the “you’re hearing and kit just isn’t up to the job” very loosely.
This tends to suggest that in some way those who don’t hear such phenomena are somehow inferior, or have inferior kit. It could just be that the person who does hear these things is just a freak and/or prone to delusion. Both are possible.
I might prefer to exist in my own little delusion where I believe my kit sounds excellent. After all, it works for many others.
Hi John,
Oddly enough Marco I agree with much of what you wrote in your last post (post before last now) but perhaps without such vehemence.
I've never been much of a "norm" anything but probably leaning more to the sub side. :
I’m quite happy to accept the fallibility of science and measurement and I really wasn’t trying to be a pedantic twat with the “all wire” bit, just trying to adequately illustrate a point.
No problem. It's good that we agree on something, for a change! ;)
I stopped being interested in collective audio realities long ago and yes, I’ve done my bit of cable swapping. For me it hasn’t made a noticeable difference and despite the usual claims from some with a more subjective persuasion I don’t believe it has much to do with my lack of aural acuity or lack of system transparency.
Neither do I. It's mostly about being able to 'tune into' the correct aspects of what has changed in the musical presentation. If you don't, then you'll never hear the subtle changes involved with something like cable directionality. There's nothing 'golden-eared' about the process, though; simply that some people 'get' it and some don't.
I’m not actually against either an objective or subjective viewpoint. I’ve been involved in science and engineering for too long to take much as given and my subjective experiences often conflict with the collective interpretation of “what is”.
I am rather keen on a bit of logic and common sense though.
Indeed. Where people of my subjectivist mindset seem to encounter most confrontation is with *some* engineers who appear 'programmed' to think in a certain way, based on their scientific education and upbringing, and thus seem incapable of thinking 'outside of the box', beyond what their experience has taught them to date.
Now, I can sympathise with and understand that, but not with the often dogmatic attitude accompanying it of 'I know more than you do because I'm an engineer, and thus have science on my side', and the belief, therefore, that their opinion on audio phenomena, which so far haven't been scientifically investigated and tested, with any degree of rigour, such as cable directionality, somehow carries more authority than anyone else's. Bullshite to that pish!
They think that they know it all, when all they're doing is allowing their ingrained bias to cloud their thinking, and then proceed to insist on 'educating' people on the matter or 'saving' them from their 'delusions', who in fact know more about the subject in hand than they do, because they've had the practical experience of actually testing the phenomenon (albeit subjectively)! :doh:
That does my tits right in, and I always challenge such attitudes with the utmost of vehemence (your word, lol, which I've borrowed :eyebrows:), which is why I do what I do here, as I know that it'll be read by many people, in the vain hope that one day, one of them might stop and think and realise that their stubborn closed-mindedness is serving only to impede genuine progress.
Where I run into problems is when it gets to the “you’re hearing and kit just isn’t up to the job” very loosely.
This tends to suggest that in some way those who don’t hear such phenomena are somehow inferior, or have inferior kit. It could just be that the person who does hear these things is just a freak and/or prone to delusion. Both are possible.
Absolutely, and I fully acknowledge that. However, expectation bias also cuts BOTH ways, I.E. just as if you expect something to happen, and thus it happens, so it will also be if you close your mind and expect something NOT to happen. Some 'objectivists' could do with acknowledging that fact!
I might prefer to exist in my own little delusion where I believe my kit sounds excellent. After all, it works for many others.
Indeed. That just isn't me, though. There's nothing I enjoy more, outside of chilling out and listening to my favourite music, than continually testing my system benchmarks against those of other people, which is why the likes of my Techy has done more miles than Phileas Fogg!! ;)
I always like to push the boundaries and achieve better results with my system, and its constituent components, just to see how far I can take things, and how close I can take the sound that they produce to sounding like that of real music. That's *precisely* why I'm in this hobby! :cool:
Marco.
John, I agree with what you say absolutely, but it's all to do with the hobby and how much people can afford to spend on it, "chasing the dream." You know where I am on this, but I'd love to dem you two balanced cables I have which do seem to sound rather different, one being a double wound copper mic cable from RS (brown gloss jacket) and the other, a couple of belden twin-core-with-foil-shield-and-drain-wire cables supplied to me by ATC (different gauges, but in sub 10m lengths they both sound much the same).
Marco found that Belden cables using pre-tinned conductors tended to have a slightly metallic edge and/or a tinny "flatness" to the sound, which is something I found quite separately from him (hope I've quoted him correctly).
These days, I still use the Mark Grant HD1500 from pre to power, the cable of which seems to be sensibly designed and possibly at the mercy of the performance of the connectors welded on the end. The Klotz AC110 is a pretty cheap wire, sounds great, doesn't seem overly directional and no wonder the pros seem to like it.....
Good grief Dave, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think all cables sound the same.:doh:
I’ve got the Belkin USB atm because they were affordable to “alter” for my early linear power to Dac route and because I rather like the sound they give.
I’ve got the Belkin interconnects because once I had stripped the less than satisfactory terminations off and replaced them with my none too pretty alternatives, I rather liked the sound.
I’ve also got a pair of Mark Grant interconnects and a few others I’ve built myself. They all sound slightly different and different again in fully balanced and semi balanced config.
Yep, I dare say speaker cables can sound different. I haven’t found anything that definitely sounds any better than my custom high capacitance cables with my speakers and amplifiers but unfortunately they’re too short for my present set up. I’ve got those Tellurium green things atm that some are fond of.
My apologies to those who hoped I might go the all cables sound the same route; they don’t with my kit!
But, I’ve not heard any night and day stuff with cables that often gets reported and it’s this kind of reporting that sends me into the same vehement mode as Marco but on the opposite side of the coin.
Despite all the above, I’m having a few problems with this directionality bit as in cables that manufacturers produce with direction indicators on.
As I wrote, if manufacturers state such cables are directional then how the feck do they know which is the right direction? They can’t listen to each set and make a subjective evaluation so they must have some measurable indication. Now according to current scientific knowledge no directionality that audibly alters a piece of wires exists.
So, a simple question, if manufacturers are putting arrows on cables because they believe that their cables sound better in a particular direction how do they decide which way to orientate the arrows?
It’s something else completely if you or I decide a cable sounds better in our systems a particular way around.
As for the “chasing the dream” bit; there comes a time for all when we have to wake up. ;)
Rare Bird
28-05-2012, 16:03
Hi Dave
I've been looking at some Klotz 'QUADFLEX' cable, looks very intresting for tonearm cable, seems to also have a drain wire but not sure till i check it out.. only 52pF
I used to use Klotz for all my mixing desk & synthesizer leads years ago, i know how flexible & easy it is to use.
Hi Dave
I've been looking at some Klotz 'QUADFLEX' cable, looks very interesting for tonearm cable, seems to also have a drain wire but not sure till I check it out.. only 52pF
I used to use Klotz for all my mixing desk & synthesizer leads years ago, I know how flexible & easy it is to use.
Are you planning on using a single 4-core cable to convey both channels André? I don't think that would be a good idea from the cross-talk point of view.
Also don't get too hung up on low capacitance. Most MM's need some additional capacitance, whereas with most MC's, it doesn't matter.
Regards
bobbasrah
28-05-2012, 17:02
So, a simple question, if manufacturers are putting arrows on cables because they believe that their cables sound better in a particular direction how do they decide which way to orientate the arrows?
It’s something else completely if you or I decide a cable sounds better in our systems a particular way around.
In the unlikely scenario that every cable is tested somehow for "directionality", would it be fair to guess that the arrow for manufacturers who are not just doing a snake oil routine, represents (as mentioned earlier) the direction in which the wire/s was/were drawn?:scratch:
Irrespective of what if any effects sonically, the cable is then presented to the amp for each channel in an equal state...
walpurgis
28-05-2012, 20:35
Is there any chance of you expanding on the technical side of your argument with regards to the myth part?
Hello, I was asking the question, not volunteering a theory. I do not have a degree in metalurgy, electronics or dielectric materials. These are not my area of engineering. However, I have what I feel is a reasonable grasp of most engineering principles, so I'm waiting to see what logical answers (may yet) come forward.
However, I have what I feel is a reasonable grasp of most engineering principles, so I'm waiting to see what logical answers (may yet) come forward.
Why don't you just try it out for yourself and see - I'm quite frankly baffled that somebody would take more stock from what they read or hear third hand, instead of trusting what works in their system and what their ears tell them is best?
All this tail chasing is IMO rather irrational :scratch:
walpurgis
28-05-2012, 22:31
I know the differences I've heard so far Tim. None!
For shits 'n' giggles I reversed the direction of my speaker cables this evening and spent a good few hours listening to some albums I know really well on all formats available to me. Now, perhaps I was wrong to do so but I entered into this scenario expecting to hear a difference from the norm and yet I didn't. I will admit that this surprised me a little and frankly I don't know what to make of it. Are my ears working properly? That's anyone's guess. Having said that, what I hear from my system sounds like music to me. Is my equipment up to par? It is as far as I'm concerned, however I'd not be so naive as to suggest that it is anywhere near a high end reference system. So, where does this leave us? It doesn't leave us anywhere because this phenomenon is peculiar to me, here, in this room with this equipment. To think otherwise would lead to rainbow chasing on my part.
The cables are back as they were because the minor OCD trait in me would only fret that the arrows were pointing the wrong way. From now on I am not going to give cable directionality a second thought. I will continue to install cables with the arrows pointing in the direction recommended by the manufacturer for my own peace of mind and for no other reason. Does this mean I've made the right decision? In this environment with this equipment, yes I suppose it does. Does this mean your wrong? Of course not because it is all relative... :ner:
I know the differences I've heard so far Tim. None!
Then that's the answer to your question.
Rare Bird
28-05-2012, 23:34
Are you planning on using a single 4-core cable to convey both channels André? I don't think that would be a good idea from the cross-talk point of view.
Thats the kinda answer i expected tbh..I'm gonna make up three cables one the way you don't approve of Barry as a complete Quad cable, one as Pseudo Balanced arrangement & one straight stereo pair..
I know now what the outcome will be ;)
Marco found that Belden cables using pre-tinned conductors tended to have a slightly metallic edge and/or a tinny "flatness" to the sound, which is something I found quite separately from him (hope I've quoted him correctly).
It's the pre-tinning that makes them tinny, obviously.
Perhaps for me it's a case of "post hoc ergo propter hoc". :scratch:
However, we don't really want to spend too much time 'faffing about' when there is good wine to be drunk. ;)
When it will a case of "post hock, ergo hic"
realysm42
29-05-2012, 11:01
Marco, have you ever studied philosophy?
Nae, laddie, why dost thou ask?
Marco.
sq225917
29-05-2012, 12:01
I know the differences I've heard so far Tim. None!
If you heard no difference then there is no difference.
At the end of the day, just keep both wires of a stereo pair running the same way, whatever way it is....
Tinned cables tinny? If I hadn't heard what Marco heard, I'd laugh at this. Probably nothing to do with it, but I think it depends on HOW you listen as well - another huge can of worms I know... Most male humans are tone-deaf and cannot sing at all. A very few are totally pitch perfect and if a recording is only slightly out in absolute pitch, it drives them batty. I love the way a good system (which doesn't have to be expensive) presents the emotion and "muse" behind a given recording, even if it isn't the ultimate in hifi terms. Many engineers I've spoken to have told me of times that an unlikely component, which doesn't measure state of the art, just "does it" when reproducing music. I'm sure it's the blend of vices and virtues which does it, why else would the Quad II's still be so well revered by many, since on the face of it they're so old fashioned, yet play some music into them and into efficient speakers and some sort of magic happens - I could give a sh*t if it's colouration or distorion either... Where this equates to cables and direction, I can't say, other than the fact that where audio wire direction is concerned, I know what I know I've experienced and that's good enough for me, no matter what "some" others with more "knowledge" may say...
realysm42
29-05-2012, 12:04
Nae, laddie, why dost thou ask?
Marco.
You seem to present arguments in a very well structured and coherent manner.
My old manager told me that a lot of her colleagues that studied law also studied philosophy as it allows you to basically pull apart other people's arguments.
No insinuation that that's what you do but I just had a hunch.
Lol - thanks for the compliment, Martin. It'll be that years (since 2003) of posting on forums, and being involved in more than a few 'debates', has honed my skills at bullshitting! ;)
Marco.
At the end of the day, just keep both wires of a stereo pair running the same way, whatever way it is....
Probably nothing to do with it, but I think it depends on HOW you listen as well - another huge can of worms I know... Most male humans are tone-deaf and cannot sing at all. A very few are totally pitch perfect and if a recording is only slightly out in absolute pitch, it drives them batty. ... Where this equates to cables and direction, I can't say, other than the fact that where audio wire direction is concerned, I know what I know I've experienced and that's good enough for me, no matter what "some" others with more "knowledge" may say...
Interesting possible factor.
I think Im glad Im not a directional hearer. Perhaps hearers can recognise that wires and people are different.
Im happy to have my ears opened. Blind test yes please
Hi Dave,
Tinned cables tinny? If I hadn't heard what Marco heard, I'd laugh at this.
Lol... Belden (and Van Damme) cables, to my ears, have a common and easily discernible 'signature'; and it's one we've discussed before. I still rate them as very good cables, but they're not the last word in tonal subtlety or finesse.
Most male humans are tone-deaf and cannot sing at all. A very few are totally pitch perfect and if a recording is only slightly out in absolute pitch, it drives them batty.
Interesting... I don't know whether or not I'm 'pitch perfect', but I can sing (to a reasonable standard). I wonder if that's why pitch and speed stability are *SO* important to me, with a turntable, and why I can immediately detect the 'wavering' of pitch, which is so obvious (and highly annoying) to my ears, with music played on low to medium-mass belt-drive T/Ts? :hmm:
Marco.
Perhaps we need a poll attached to this thread. How about:
1. "Cables cannot be directional, so I haven't gone to the bother of trying"
2. "Some cables might be directional, but I haven't tried"
3. "I have tried changing the orientation of the cables, but could hear no difference"
4. "I can hear a small difference, but not necessarily as the manufacturer's marking"
5. "I can hear a noticable difference, but not necessarily as the manufacturer's marking"
6. "I can hear a noticable difference, usually preferring the manufacturer's marking"
7. "I can hear a noticable difference and always prefer the manufacturer's marking"
8. "I can hear a huge difference and usually the manufacturer's marking"
9. "I can hear a huge difference and always follow the manufacturer's marking"
10. "Cables must be, and are, clearly and audibly directional. I have also gone to the trouble of changing the orientation of all mains fuses, mains cables and wiring from the mains consumer unit"
Perhaps we need a poll attached to this thread. How about:
1. "Cables cannot be directional, so I haven't gone to the bother of trying"
Good idea. Let's hope no-one's closed-minded enough to vote for the first one! ;)
I have also gone to the trouble of changing the orientation of all mains fuses, mains cables and wiring from the mains consumer unit"
Well done, you've reminded me that all the fuses in the mains plugs in my system have been tested for directionality, and indeed were marked as such originally by the manufacturer (Hi-fi Tuning).
Also, before I installed the 16mm armoured cable, feeding the separate mains spur, powering my system, I listen listened to the cable both ways round, before settling on the orientation which I considered sounded best, so thanks for reminding me of that, too!! :cool:
Marco.
Perhaps we need a poll attached to this thread. How about:
1. "Cables cannot be directional, so I haven't gone to the bother of trying"
2. "Some cables might be directional, but I haven't tried"
3. "I have tried changing the orientation of the cables, but could hear no difference"
4. "I can hear a small difference, but not necessarily as the manufacturer's marking"
5. "I can hear a noticable difference, but not necessarily as the manufacturer's marking"
6. "I can hear a noticable difference, usually preferring the manufacturer's marking"
7. "I can hear a noticable difference and always prefer the manufacturer's marking"
8. "I can hear a huge difference and usually the manufacturer's marking"
9. "I can hear a huge difference and always follow the manufacturer's marking"
10. "Cables must be, and are, clearly and audibly directional. I have also gone to the trouble of changing the orientation of all mains fuses, mains cables and wiring from the mains consumer unit"
Brill Barry. Put me down for a 3 recently done due to this thread
Perhaps we need a poll attached to this thread. How about:
1. "Cables cannot be directional, so I haven't gone to the bother of trying"
2. "Some cables might be directional, but I haven't tried"
3. "I have tried changing the orientation of the cables, but could hear no difference"
4. "I can hear a small difference, but not necessarily as the manufacturer's marking"
5. "I can hear a noticable difference, but not necessarily as the manufacturer's marking"
6. "I can hear a noticable difference, usually preferring the manufacturer's marking"
7. "I can hear a noticable difference and always prefer the manufacturer's marking"
8. "I can hear a huge difference and usually the manufacturer's marking"
9. "I can hear a huge difference and always follow the manufacturer's marking"
10. "Cables must be, and are, clearly and audibly directional. I have also gone to the trouble of changing the orientation of all mains fuses, mains cables and wiring from the mains consumer unit"
11. "Arrows, John? I didn't even see any Indians!"
12. It's a Tuesday.
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
29-05-2012, 19:35
13. Unlucky for some :lol:
14. wireless signal transfer so NO CABLES AT ALL. coming soon.
WOStantonCS100
29-05-2012, 20:40
14. wireless signal transfer so NO CABLES AT ALL. coming soon.
Hey David,
Care to expound? Assuming that's not a joke, that would take some heavy convincing on my part. Considering the spaghetti behind my racks, on the surface of it, wireless sounds like a great idea; but, that introduces all of the issues that come along with it. I don't even like having a wireless router and cell phones anywhere near my gear (ie. all cell phones and the router are turned off at night during serious listening).
Three letters - RFI... This is why I will never buy wireless headphones. Domestic wireless tech promises much but seldom delivers to its full potential in my experience. Sorry to be such a sourpuss Dave ;)
Reid Malenfant
29-05-2012, 21:00
Three letters - RFI... This is why I will never buy wireless headphones. Domestic wireless tech promises much but seldom delivers to its full potential in my experience. Sorry to be such a sourpuss Dave ;)
:thumbsup: +1, give me seriously well screened wires every day of the week :)
No wireless internet here, no mobile phone here, I think you get the picture - while I get the sound & the picture as it happens :D
Oh come on guys! - you can change the wording if you like, but surely some sort of vox pop. would be of interest.
Me? Well I'm sort of 2.5:
"Some cables (depending on their construction) can be directional. I can usually hear it, and the correct orientation depends on the equipment between which it connects and has nothing to do with the manufacturer's marking".
And you thought I was an intransigent, unsufferable 'objectivist'. ;)
WOStantonCS100
30-05-2012, 00:38
:thumbsup: +1, give me seriously well screened wires every day of the week :)
No wireless internet here, no mobile phone here, I think you get the picture - while I get the sound & the picture as it happens :D
...must've been a joke, eh :)
As it happens I was chatting at he weekend with someone who works with the team working on the incredible complex goal of transmitting HD video signals wirelessly. It involved this trick to allow it to work across the room as people walk in the way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beamforming
Hmm Marco - Van Damme having their own sonics eh? :) It depends on which one - pro patch, single core double screened or the stiff shotgun type double screened stereo cable. All of these, with identical phono's on, sound ever so slightly different from each other, and in my experience, I have a very slight preference for the writing going back to source on these. Even if I couldn't tell if blindfolded, it suits me.
By the way, just done another comparison with the Klotz AC110 and Mark Grant HD1500. Both these are permanently wired and take the full signal into identical loads and yes, I could easily hear a bloomin' difference between them, even with another sodding outer-ear infection, for which I've been taking what look like horse pills for a week :(
Hi Dave,
Hmm Marco - Van Damme having their own sonics eh? It depends on which one - pro patch, single core double screened or the stiff shotgun type double screened stereo cable.
Obviously, I haven't tried them all. But of the ones I have tried, and most recently the superb value for money Van Damme Blue Series Studio Grade (shown here: http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_21&products_id=169), which I use to hook up my 15XRs, for garden duties, there is, to my ears, somewhat of a common sonic signature with the 'Pro' cables I've heard, so far.
Whilst the sound is explicitly clear and well-focussed, there is a mid-forwardness and slight 'edge' in evidence (and overall lack of delicacy), making for a 'forced' and somewhat false musical presentation, in comparison with something which I know to be more neutral, which are my usual reference speaker cables: VDH 'The Wind'.
Connecting up either my 15XRs, 66s or Lockwoods with the Van Damme, in the same system, and whilst appreciating that in most situations the Van Damme would sound excellent, you can hear exactly why it's priced at £2.50 per metre, and the VDH is £50 per metre...
I can go into more detail, if you wish? :)
Sorry to hear about the ear infection, btw. You'll have to stop letting your girlfriend put her tongue in there! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
30-05-2012, 16:42
:thumbsup: +1, give me seriously well screened wires every day of the week :)
No wireless internet here, no mobile phone here, I think you get the picture - while I get the sound & the picture as it happens :D
I am with you on this as well, though there is a mobile but it stays off when I am at home. Folks want me they can use the land line.
Top man... Bloody mobiles ringing off all the time are the ruination of our current society. Why folk need to have the things switched on, and with them, 24/7, is a bloody mystery to me! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Bloody mobiles ringing off all the time are the ruination of our current society.
Too right Marco and people that use them during a gig really ******* pisses me off.
That's the world we live in now - I work with people who take their iPhones to lunch with them and sit at a communal table using them constantly throughout lunch - to me that's bloody rude. One fella uses his iPhone when he takes a leak, can you believe he has his johnson in one hand and his iPhone in the other .... everytime he goes .... WTF!
Mr Kipling
30-05-2012, 20:04
OK, how does this 'coupling' work? And, did Jimmy have (any) valid ideas?
Coupling, Geoff. The air in your listening room is the medium that transmits/transfers/'couples' the generated waveform from speaker to lughole. Your avatar shows horn-loaded compression drive units. Horn speakers are noted for their efficiency. How are they so? Voodoo magic?. Divine intervention? It's simpley because the drive units are 'cuppled' to the air in the room more effectively than with your typical direc radiating infinite baffle or whatever.
Forget about humidity or density, sound travels faster through moist air because: 1 a molecule of water vapour at 18 grams per mole, weighs less than one of nitrogen at 28 grams per mole or oxygen at 32 grams per mole. 2 a molecule of water vapour has greater kinetic energy and so travels faster than either molecules of nitrogen or oxygen which goes to make up the air we all breathe.
'Did Jimmy Hughes have (any) valid ideas? Should I presume you thought he didn't? Why not ask those here that know him? What I liked about was that he was his own man and did his own thing; a bit of a maverick that was willing to try any off-the-wall idea. And he didn't seem to be too bothered about how he might appear in the eyes of others. At the end of the day it was means to and end.
I don't recall reading anything about spliting the crossovers of speakers until he wrote about it. The facility wasn't available on commercial products at that time. None that I ever saw at that time (late '70s). In the '80s he experimented with removing the foam from inside his Arcam 2s. At the time it was common practice for speaker manufactures to simply stuff a ball of acousic wadding into the cabinets. He did get at least one manufacture to change this and got them to line their cabinets instead.
These are two that come to mind. I would have to go through my old Hi-Fi Answers/The Audiophle for othes. Thinking about it now, in The Audiophile he regularly gave a tweek to try. Going back to split crossovers, he advised using two sets of cables beween amp and speakes and removing the crossover links. Does anyone do this? Going back to directionality, if you want a definitive answer, perhaps Stan Curtis is the man to ask.
Kind Regards,
Stephen.
Reid Malenfant
30-05-2012, 20:12
Going back to directionality, if you want a definitive answer, perhaps Stan Curtis is the man to ask.
Kind Regards,
Stephen.
Given bi-wireable speakers then yes, it makes sense to seperate the currents feeding the bass/mid & tweeter. The crossover components at the far end of the cables reject what they can't carry so there should be a useful reduction in intermodulation distortion.
Personally I have gone completely active with my main system, so that's out of the window :)
Hi Dave,
I can go into more detail, if you wish? :)
Sorry to hear about the ear infection, btw. You'll have to stop letting your girlfriend put her tongue in there! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Chance would be a very fine thing :eyebrows:
I dunno, what do you expect for under a fiver for wire and plugs in a 1m run? :lol: I find a very slight "thickening" with the coax version of these wires here in my stereo's and with the twin core plus screen mic cables, the slight "middy" balance you refer to - I've not tried the speaker cables here, but the outdoor pros use it by the hundred metre length :) I wonder if the 4m gauge would flesh the sonics of longer runs out?
Leaving the Wind speaker cable out of it for a minute (you know I love this stuff, despite the cost), I think it fair to say that most generic cables share much the same manufacture and cost, the rest of it is either in wacky construction, expensive looking plugs and humungous dealer margins.. :)
One great thing about wires off the drum like this, is that you can make up your own for peanuts and experiment to your hearts content :) - and it's not as if the mid priced Mark Grants are silly money now, is it, if you want a "proper" reference?
walpurgis
30-05-2012, 22:50
Top man... Bloody mobiles ringing off all the time are the ruination of our current society. Why folk need to have the things switched on, and with them, 24/7, is a bloody mystery to me! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Hopefully not being taken as sexist, you'd have to ask a woman! I don't know one who doesn't keep theirs on and at hand 24/7.
I assume a humidifier cannot raise the local atmospheric pressure, in which case density will surely remain the same.
Fog is small suspended water globules (ultra fine rain, or ground level cloud) and until evaporated into the atmosphere has no infuence on humidity believe it or not.
Does sound carry further on a foggy day?
Geoff.
I've just remembered that I'm reading an 8 month old thread... forgive me for responding.
What you were thinking here is that the air was homogenous throughout and never changing and remaining the very same air. Then you can think in terms of ideal gas equations in terms of the relation between density and pressure.
But if you're ADDING something to the gas to make it denser, i.e changing the susbstance completely, then of course you can change it's density without changing pressure.
Top man... Bloody mobiles ringing off all the time are the ruination of our current society. Why folk need to have the things switched on, and with them, 24/7, is a bloody mystery to me! :rolleyes:
Marco.
Ah! Caught you out :lol: What if that's also the feeling of a hifi dealer who also feels the same about emails? Anyway, I'm being cheeky introducing that to a different thread.
Cables marked as directional usually come in to flavours:
single ended (ie RCA) cables using balanced cable geometry with the shield connected to ground at the source end ony and left floating at the other end. Reason for that: To shunt unwanted noise to source chassis ground leaving the conductors free to carry the signal and not ground current noise. In reality single ended circuits have no common mode noise rejection so they will still pick up noise, but this design can be advantageous in helping prevent or minimise the effects of ground loop hum. Best used as marked but can sometimes sound better t'uther way around...just make sure to use both the same way or it defeats the object of the design!
Second flavour: Coax or non-shielded cables in single ended mode marked as directional. Its utter nonsense. Signal cables operate in AC not DC so whatever hype marketing says about burn-in and directionality, its a physical and factual impossibility. Use them any way around you like.
There may (and are) exceptions where some big cable names use zobel networks and other cable circuits. I'd avoid these anyway.
I give this post ***** 5 stars, It is nearly word for word what I was told about directional cables when buying Apature JJ inter connects from a veteran audio dealer with nearly 50 years in the industry.
What drew me to the thread was Colin Wonfor's posts - as a now cable manufacturer he was talking about metallurgy, changes that take place due to the passing of current, electromagnetic fields etc.
Seemed to suggest that directivity was more about the cable changing over time due to the direction it is used rather than having some intrinsic feature that makes it better one way than the other.
He was saying that this takes more time to reverse the longer it has been used in one direction.
So, is it that one way is better or is it that one way is different to the other dependant on how it has been used? Could be that its virgin state is the best sound and so you'd have to keep constantly swapping direction in order to keep it in its "best sound" window.
The theory, to call it that, would also explain cable burn-in etc.
What drew me to the thread was Colin Wonfor's posts - as a now cable manufacturer he was talking about metallurgy, changes that take place due to the passing of current, electromagnetic fields etc.
Seemed to suggest that directivity was more about the cable changing over time due to the direction it is used rather than having some intrinsic feature that makes it better one way than the other.
He was saying that this takes more time to reverse the longer it has been used in one direction.
So, is it that one way is better or is it that one way is different to the other dependant on how it has been used? Could be that its virgin state is the best sound and so you'd have to keep constantly swapping direction in order to keep it in its "best sound" window.
The theory, to call it that, would also explain cable burn-in etc.
...many manufacturers have claimed that and none have offered any evidence to back up those claims. What exactly causes the mechanical metallurgy changes? Current is alternating so one would expect that even if what you say is true, the effect would be negated because of the alternating nature of the current. There's no evidence, just cable "myth" to back it up IMHO. The conductivity does not alter over time in the cable but may alter due to corrosion and tarnishing of the connections, and cold joints forming in the solder joints. I can take any 10 year old cable, snip the connectors off and measure DC resistance in milli-Ohms and I can give you a cast iron guarantee that nothing will have changed from when the cable was new.
You may have something about removing and reinserting the cables every so often. If you do hear a change, more often than not its because the act of removing and reinserting the connectors helps the clean any unwanted tarnishing or muck from the connection. It is a good idea every so often (annually) to remove and clean the connections.
Paul I think you will find if you check your AC theory you will find that there is a net current flow from source to reciever.
Paul I think you will find if you check your AC theory you will find that there is a net current flow from source to reciever.
And that changes the metallic structure/sound how?
Bottom line, is that if people like they way their cables sound better one way than another, that's all that matters and that's great. What puzzles me is trying to explain it scientifically. Without evidence, it's a theory, so no harm in theorising, but when theory is passed off as fact, it's open to challenge. All IMHO of course.;)
And that changes the metallic structure/sound how?
Bottom line, is that if people like they way their cables sound better one way than another, that's all that matters and that's great. What puzzles me is trying to explain it scientifically. Without evidence, it's a theory, so no harm in theorising, but when theory is passed off as fact, it's open to challenge. All IMHO of course.;)
Hi Fi snake oil salesman have made this hobby very suitable for all sorts of kooks and anal retentive types.
The fact that magic stones have been sold to put on top of audio cables is proof enough of my statement.
Science and common sense dose not apply to these people.
Hi Fi snake oil salesman have made this hobby very suitable for all sorts of kooks and anal retentive types.
The fact that magic stones have been sold to put on top of audio cables is proof enough of my statement.
Science and common sense dose not apply to these people.
:lolsign:
Perhaps not, but in this case, for someone with no electrickery knowledge, I guess it's an innocent enough and understandable question/line of enquiry.
There are loads of claims out there for directional cables but never, not once, have any been backed by evidence, at least none that I have found. That doesn't mean that IC's cannot sound better one way than another, but if in the event that is the perception, that is not proof that the cable itself is directional. It's a little like saying if you get run over after going swimming, that swimming makes you prone to getting run over!
Stratmangler
01-03-2013, 22:30
There are loads of claims out there for directional cables but never, not once, have any been backed by evidence, at least none that I have found.
I've never ever noted a change in the sound of my electric guitars by a lead being one way round or the other :eyebrows:
:lolsign:
Perhaps not, but in this case, for someone with no electrickery knowledge, I guess it's an innocent enough and understandable question/line of enquiry.
There are loads of claims out there for directional cables but never, not once, have any been backed by evidence, at least none that I have found. That doesn't mean that IC's cannot sound better one way than another, but if in the event that is the perception, that is not proof that the cable itself is directional. It's a little like saying if you get run over after going swimming, that swimming makes you prone to getting run over!
Ben Duncan 'The Black Box' theory behind directional cables.
Supra cables have publicly announced that direction is measureable and have also performed measurements that clearly shows this. Differences are small but still there.
(Jenving Technology)
But, if you're convinced it doesn't matter, then it doesn't for you...
And to be quite honest, I also believe the differences are too small to matter...
(Unless were talking asymmetrically terminated cables of course)
//Mike
Ben Duncan 'The Black Box' theory behind directional cables.
Supra cables have publicly announced that direction is measureable and have also performed measurements that clearly shows this. Differences are small but still there.
(Jenving Technology)
But, if you're convinced it doesn't matter, then it doesn't for you...
And to be quite honest, I also believe the differences are too small to matter...
(Unless were talking asymmetrically terminated cables of course)
//Mike
There's a world of difference between a company that sells them coming out and stating that this is the case and actually supplying the (peer reviewed) evidence, which they have not.
As you say, if it exists, the differences are probably minuscule and I would hazard a guess that even if measurably true, it isn't audible (ie more than say 1 or 2dB different at any chosen frequency) and I hark back to the point that when reversing cables, sonic differences are more likely to be the result of other issues, where a difference exists. People believe what they want though so I'm aware that my own knowledge base is irrelevant in that respect.
Having read Supra's claims, they don't make much sense. They claim up to 0.5dB between directionality (ie barely audible but just) but is that over 1m, 10m, or 1KM? They have conveniently failed to disclose that. If its over a metre, then I'd have more than a hard time believing such claims as the implications on all cables would be profound, and that clearly is not the case. They also fail completely to address "directionality" or otherwise of extruded signal pins, machined signal pins, and the grain effects of different solder connections. Sorry, but their claims just don't ring true. Also, at what frequency was the 0.5dB? Losses do occur in cables at frequencies much higher than the audible spectrum (in the MHz region) for example.
The other thing to remember is that current and electron flow are two distinctly separate things. Whilst electron flow across a cable can be influenced by grain boundaries (and takes much longer than current flow to occur), current flow occurs close to the speed of light and since in the real world we are dealing with current and voltage, then what matters for signal measurements is current measurement. To claim that there is a change in current (amplitude) depending on the orientation of a cable is something I simply don't buy.
sq225917
02-03-2013, 12:40
Full of sense is this thread, learning much for idiots is there.
Full of sense is this thread, learning much for idiots is there.
haha, was that a "yoda" moment dude :lol:
who gives a shit about proof or evidence, it's hifi, you listen with your ears FGS
listen to the cables one way, listen the other, what more is needed?
unless people enjoy debating/arguing/writing long paragraphs about all this nonsense?
haha, was that a "yoda" moment dude :lol:
who gives a shit about proof or evidence, it's hifi, you listen with your ears FGS
listen to the cables one way, listen the other, what more is needed?
unless people enjoy debating/arguing/writing long paragraphs about all this nonsense?
Exactly. However, sometimes it doesn't hurt to provide a little substance in terms of information. Some may find it relevant/interesting. Most probably don't ;)
...many manufacturers have claimed that and none have offered any evidence to back up those claims. What exactly causes the mechanical metallurgy changes? Current is alternating so one would expect that even if what you say is true, the effect would be negated because of the alternating nature of the current. There's no evidence, just cable "myth" to back it up IMHO. The conductivity does not alter over time in the cable but may alter due to corrosion and tarnishing of the connections, and cold joints forming in the solder joints. I can take any 10 year old cable, snip the connectors off and measure DC resistance in milli-Ohms and I can give you a cast iron guarantee that nothing will have changed from when the cable was new.
You may have something about removing and reinserting the cables every so often. If you do hear a change, more often than not its because the act of removing and reinserting the connectors helps the clean any unwanted tarnishing or muck from the connection. It is a good idea every so often (annually) to remove and clean the connections.
It wasn't mechanical changes he mentioned.
Still, what counts as a lack of evidence? It is that the evidence is not being presented to you or that it doesn't exist? I'd say that it's highly possible that the evidence does exist but both not going to reach me unless I spend a long while searching and know where and what to search for IF (a big IF) it is publicly available research nor will it be nicely presented as anything to do with the sound of cables in consumer hifi.
Personally I want to learn more about these things and I don't wish to limit my future knowledge by presuming my current state of knowledge is complete and correct.
Regarding the re-inserting of cables, this would only apply in cases where cables have been connected for ages. This would immediately be circumnavigated by changing the cable more than once when trying things out..
who gives a shit about proof or evidence, it's hifi, you listen with your ears FGS
listen to the cables one way, listen the other, what more is needed?
unless people enjoy debating/arguing/writing long paragraphs about all this nonsense?
Personally, I enjoying knowing stuff and a deeper understanding allows one to apply that same knowledge to other things, be it in a linear way or better still through analogy, an out-of-the-box association between things. That is essential for innovation and for creativity or even just for everyday philosophy or judging marketing claims, news stories etc.
I guess there are people who prefer an ignorance is bliss model of happiness?
When it comes down to listening, how does knowledge effect what you hear? I am able to judge my enjoyment of something regardless of what I know about it. If science says that something is impossible but I hear a difference, when setting up my system I will still include that better sound.
Even if I am fully aware that it is a placebo effect, I will happily allow that placebo effect to have a result on my enjoyment, just as I would allow a placebo effect to help cure a disease - how ridiculous would it be to refuse sugar pills if those sugar pills were having a real, positive effect to your health? It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face wouldn't it, simply for the sake of ego/pride to show that you weren't being fooled?
Oldpinkman
29-04-2013, 14:48
Since I last played this game. Way back when at Pink Triangle, we had plenty of fun with "imagined" black magic and snake oil. I offer a couple of thoughts from my experiences back then.
Changing cables (unplugging them and plugging them in) will clean the contacts and change the impedance.
My resident guru told me directional could make no difference, and we never proved it did. I am intrigued by the claim for solid chords moving the imaging when one is reversed, since I have a pair and can't get the effect in my system.
He further maintained that differences between cables were real - but due to impedance and capacitance factors, and demonstrated this by making different cables sound the same with the right capacitance or resistance added.
Cable length will further affect this point
We did all of our testing blind. True blind testing is the only way to be convincing about something you cant (yet) measure. But it usually reveals people hear differences when they want to - like when actually nothing changed between all 5 listening samples.
Finally - said guru has just made up my recent interconnects and they sound good to me!
Oh not quite finally - I should point out I listen using my own ears and not my wifes! I'll never forget a letter that came into PT about the dreaded "slowing under load" where this customer had written to say his friend was a professional musician, and could distinctly hear it (by implication he couldn't actually hear it himself). Well my wife is a classically trained soprano, who has sung professionally at the Royal Albert Hall, and mercifully she hears the same as I do :-)
Audioman
29-04-2013, 15:08
I suspect the only true difference in directionality is the printing on the sleeving of a cable. Must admit I usually follow the manufacturers advice to run with the writing await from the source if applicable. I can't see how they guarantee the print to consistently run one way in relation to the internal wire orientation (if there is a difference) btw. :)
I run my cables that way, firstly to avoid hifi paranoia, and secondly if I sell the cables, as I did with a pair of VDH last year, I can tell the purchaser which way they were oriented in case they do suffer afoementioned paranoia.
Hal55
Oldpinkman
30-04-2013, 05:33
i have to confess, when i went to try the chord reversal of one channel test mine were wired in the right direction. No harm in being tidy :-)
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