View Full Version : Am I getting past it?
icehockeyboy
24-05-2012, 21:44
When I first started buying hi fi, back in the days of the Leak Stereo 30 plus, and the Quad 33 and 303, no one as far as I'm aware, used anything other than bell wire, and the ic's that were supplied with the kit! :D
No one ever ( to my knowledge) swapped wires, it was unheard of, no.....when we swapped, it was a big box worth! :eyebrows:
At what stage did we decide that swapping bits of cable made a difference.....and who started it? :scratch:
I think the answer is 'yes' - you're defo showing your age there, mate! ;)
Marco.
Somewhere in the late '70s. The Japanese were the first and the 'message' quickly spread to Europe, thanks to an article by French audio guru Jean Hiraga in the magazine Haute Fidelité. This was reprinted in the UK magazine Hi-Fi News (& Record Review) - and things were never quite the same again! :eyebrows:
I seem to remember an early Hitachi OFC cable being the first special that I came across.
I seem to remember an early Hitachi OFC cable being the first special that I came across.
Yes I bought a set of those (cheaply) - simply because they looked to be well made. Sound wise, I didn't think they were anything special. They used screened twin core cable, wired in so-called balanced fashion. This meant they were directional, which I thought was a bad idea. Despite having direction arrows printed on the sheath suggesting the correct orientation, this did not guarantee the best results.
In the end I gave them to a fellow audio enthusiast, and started making my own cables.
For me it was QED 79-strand speaker cable and VDH D-102 interconnects (both were in use in my first 'serious' system, in 1982). I've never used bell-wire in my life - perish the thought....! :eek:
Marco.
Rare Bird
24-05-2012, 23:11
It's because people listerned to music in those days not the stereo :)
Lol - I think both come into the equation. If the "stereo" wasn't there, there'd be no music! :eyebrows:
If better cables had been around in those days, trust me, dude, people would have used them...
Marco.
southall-1998
25-05-2012, 01:12
It's because people listerned to music in those days not the stereo :)
Agreed:youtheman:
erchie84
25-05-2012, 04:34
My first was QED 79 strand flat cable used to go up to Andrew Thomson in Dunfermline where you could buy it off the reel ... Hooked up to a pair of tannoy dc2000
prestonchipfryer
25-05-2012, 05:54
When I had the Quad 33/303/FM3 back in the 70s I used to make the interconnects with the 4-pin DIN plugs from what today would be described as 'bell-wire.' Have to say it always sounded okay. The first 'special' speaker cable I used was an effort from Monitor Audio (I think) which was wire twisted together in a green and copper-coloured confuguration. This was bought from HATV in Christchurch. :)
Now I feel old 'cause that was nearly 40 years ago. :(
hifi_dave
25-05-2012, 07:34
Late 60's, I worked for BT International and made my own speaker cables and incons from a selection available. I figured that if it was good enough for BT, it was good enough for me but I didn't bother to compare any.
Mid 70's I met Be Yamamura, one of the first gurus to be designing and developing cables. He opened my eyes/ears to the possibilities and I started using Audionote cables and others he was developing from that time.
i'm just happy knowing my speakers are connected up with cables made by Claude Van Damme.
Is there no end to talents of the 'muscles from Brussels'
This klutz likes Klotz too...
It's because people listerned to music in those days not the stereo :)
;)
They just didn't know then that using better cables, etc (when such things would eventually become available) would enhance their enjoyment of music, by providing better sound.
If someone could've beamed down from the future and demonstrated it to them back then, they'd have binned the bell-wire quicker than their chicken-in-a-basket...! ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
25-05-2012, 09:33
Yes Marco but this is where Hi-Fi get obsessive.. detracts too much from what your suppose to be doing in the first place. Who cares if this & that cable might be better. If your getting music for pleasure out of what you already have thats about it isnt it? I have no desire what so ever to use crazy priced cables as long as they are well made & reliable they will work for me.
I've wondered why some of the likes of walker,rogers leak etc never seemed bothered about cables?
Because they could only use what was available to them at the time, much like with electrical components, such as capacitors and resistors, which we all know now have been vastly improved since those days!
Marco.
Yes Marco but this is where Hi-Fi get obsessive.. detracts too much from what your suppose to be doing in the first place. Who cares if this & that cable might be better. If your getting music for pleasure out of what you already have thats about it isnt it? I have no desire what so ever to use crazy priced cables as long as they are well made & reliable they will work for me.
I completely agree, dude. The trick is not to get obsessive about it, and simply effect improvements, as and when you consider it worthwhile.
The vast majority of my time in contact with my hi-fi system is spent listening to music. Fortunately I work from home (that is, what work I do these days :eyebrows:), so I probably listen to more music than most here. Music is playing right now, in fact, as I'm typing this - and it'll be the same for the next 6 hours or so!
I think I'll take the little Celestions out into the garden later, as it's such a nice day, in time for Del getting home from work, then open some nice chilled Chablis, and we'll be sitting listening to music way into the evening, whist enjoying each other's company, together with some nice good and drink. That's the lifestyle I enjoy :)
Obsessing about hi-fi? I don't think so! ;)
Marco.
icehockeyboy
25-05-2012, 09:51
A lot of very good replies, re the ones that said we didn't know that using better cables would improve the sound, don't you think it odd that we knew that swapping amps, speakers, TT's, tuners, arms, carts etc would, but not the stuff connecting them?
Not really, Craig. It was just down to simple ignorance. The school of thought then was that it was only the 'boxes' and speakers, or anything 'obvious' that mattered, until we discovered differently.
As knowledge is gained, through experimentation and exposure to new technology, people learn accordingly and benefit from the experience. It's how the human race evolves, mate - otherwise we'd all still be living in caves, like the Flintstones! :eyebrows:
Marco.
icehockeyboy
25-05-2012, 10:04
You mean some people DON'T live in caves?????? :eek:
I believe some southerners consider that the phenomenon still exists north of Watford.
Marco.
They just didn't know then that using better cables, etc (when such things would eventually become available) would enhance their enjoyment of music, by providing better sound.
If someone could've beamed down from the future and demonstrated it to them back then, they'd have binned the bell-wire quicker than their chicken-in-a-basket...! ;)
Marco.
Surely there must of been better cable available.
I'am sure if they thought there were big benefits in cables they would have gone for it.
I don't think there was anything much better available, certainly nothing like there is nowadays, where acres of research and development has gone into producing specialist cables for audio use (and here I'm not talking about the 'foo' bullshit, designed to empty the wallets of the gullible), but 'no-nonsense' stuff (such as Mark Grant's cables, amongst others), which effect genuine sonic improvements, for a reasonable outlay.
It also depends on what you mean by "big benefits". Bigger benefits will always be realised by major components changes in equipment and speakers, but the best cables ensure that those benefits aren't ruined by poor signal transfer, such as with inferior cables.
The fact is that EVERYTHING matters when assembling a top-notch hi-fi system. To concentrate solely on one important area, or just a few, at the expense of others, is not a recipe for achieving the best audio performance, or hearing your favourite music at its best.
Marco.
icehockeyboy
25-05-2012, 10:42
Surely there must of been better cable available.
I'am sure if they thought there were big benefits in cables they would have gone for it.
Must OF??? Must OF??????????????
When did the word OF become interchangeable with the word HAVE??????? :ner::scratch::doh::eyebrows:
Way back then the only criteria for cables was to get those little electrizzicals from A to B without spilling any on the floor :lol:
We are still mostly in the shade today that EVERYTHING has some sort of impact on the sound perceived and those naysayers that reckon cables cannot and will not make a difference (however small) need a jolly good firm slap round the side of the head for their illogical intransigence.
Even factors outside of the direct listening environment can have a detrimental effect, like road traffic noise, air humidity and birdsong (sat by an open window now and they are driving me nuts).
icehockeyboy
25-05-2012, 10:45
So long as they are not nibbling on your nuts! :lol:
So long as they are not nibbling on your nuts! :lol:
It's when they peck yer pecker it causes real grief :lol:
We are still mostly in the shade today that EVERYTHING has some sort of impact on the sound perceived and those naysayers that reckon cables cannot and will not make a difference (however small) need a jolly good firm slap round the side of the head for their illogical intransigence.
Comment of the fucking year, Frank!!
:clapclapclap:
I'd shove a rusty nail, right up their Jap's eye, also for good measure - just 'cos I'm bad that way!
Marco.
Rare Bird
25-05-2012, 11:29
slap around the head! there's only one bunch that need a slap around the head in order to fall back down to earth... :rolleyes:
I hope your next shit is an hedgehog
:lolsign:
And anyway, you use decent cables yourself (not to mention high-quality plugs and connectors - all 'modern inventions'). Unless you're a closet bell-wire and speaker spring-clip terminal fan? :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
25-05-2012, 11:47
:lolsign:
And anyway, you use decent cables yourself! Unless you're a closet bell-wire fan? :)
Marco.
Basic Criteria all the time with me, totally not intrested in any sound improvement claims.. If it looks nice quality (important), well made & cheap i go with it..The mains cables on my vintage amps has been outlawed for years, so has to be changed like it or not..
I fell back down to earth some years ago. :eyebrows:
What about the polyproplene capacitors you fit into your vintage gear - are they just for looks, too? ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
25-05-2012, 11:53
What about the polyproplene capacitors you fit into your vintage gear - are they just for looks, too? ;)
Marco.
Caps have to be changed like it or not! I use the polycaps i do because to my ears they add no signature, Cheap & importantly they look like they are military caps from the 60's.. So they fit the bill, don't look odd in vintage amps & also retain the original sound to my ears.No claims of a revelation there which is good.
Yup, but the point I'm making is that in certain areas of audio things have moved on. The only reason you can use polyproplene caps in the first place (for whatever purpose you like) is because they are a modern invention.
Therefore, for whatever justifiable reason, you've embraced the advances of modern technology, as indeed you have done with anything else you've bought and implemented in your system ('fancy' cables, plugs and connectors), which didn't exist 30 or 40 years ago :)
What's different about those Blue Jeans cables you like, which I gave you? Don't kid yourself on that the main reason you like them isn't because of how they make your system sound, because they're nowt special to look at, dude... ;)
Marco.
walpurgis
25-05-2012, 12:09
When I first started buying hi fi, back in the days of the Leak Stereo 30 plus, and the Quad 33 and 303, no one as far as I'm aware, used anything other than bell wire, and the ic's that were supplied with the kit! :D
No one ever ( to my knowledge) swapped wires, it was unheard of, no.....when we swapped, it was a big box worth! :eyebrows:
At what stage did we decide that swapping bits of cable made a difference.....and who started it? :scratch:
The first 'bespoke' cables I was aware of were fancy looking milti-coloured litz speaker cables marketed I believe by both Monitor Audio and Monster Cables in the late seventies if I recall correctly. I bought a couple of pairs and they certainly were better than bell wire and the other stuff I'd been using. I think I've still got a pair tucked away somewhere. Geoff.
realysm42
25-05-2012, 12:21
I'm happy for the birds to nibble until that M-dac firmware is realeased.
Rare Bird
25-05-2012, 12:26
Yup, but the point I'm making is that in certain areas of audio things have moved on. The only reason you can use polyproplene caps in the first place (for whatever purpose you like) is because they are a modern invention.
Therefore, for whatever justifiable reason, you've embraced the advances of modern technology, as indeed you have done with anything else you've bought and implemented in your system ('fancy' cables, plugs and connectors), which didn't exist 30 or 40 years ago :)
What's different about those Blue Jeans cables you like, which I gave you? Don't kid yourself on that the main reason you like them isn't because of how they make your system sound, because they're nowt special to look at, dude... ;)
Marco.
I liked the blue Jeans cable because it looks very plain/non decript..The cable i used before that looked flash & cheap at the same time.A lot of people thrive on brand names & the expence of said items :mental:
My point tho is i'm not a believer in all these fancy claims & expensive cables this that & tuther..As it's now not 40 years ago & obviously you cannot replace old original parts & wire for new, i've had experience enough to filter through what looks good & at the same time cheap to replace the old, however in no way will i use cheap tac items but will also not pay alot, you can have both... btw i do embrace technology for purpose such as specialist plating, etc but only for reliabilty again no sound claims.
:cool:
No worries, dude. Anything that I introduce into my system, which I consider is better than that which it replaced, is done for one reason, and ONE reason only: to hear MORE of the music in my favourite recordings - bugger all else :cool:
I don't give a flying f*ck what 'badge' is on it, what it looks like or how much it costs. If it works, it works!
Marco.
Beobloke
25-05-2012, 13:23
I remember buying a 10m reel of QED 79 strand from Tyrrell and Green's (aka John Lewis) hi-fi department when I were a lad, beacuse I'd read that it would be an improvement on the old bell wire I was using.
After the reel set off every alarm in every shop I went into on my way back through town to get the bus home I duly connected it between my Bush Audiosystem 1500 music centre and its speakers. The difference was huge and I duly persuaded my dad to buy some for his system downstairs too. This made a similarly big difference in sound and also, interestingly, completely eradicated the issue he used to have with LW radio pick-up on the phono input drowing out the music when you tried to play a record after dark!
Frankly, other cable changes I have since have given results that are massive orders of magnitude smaller.
Indeed; simply because with bell-wire to 79-strand, you'd gone from using something intrinsically shite, to something decent.
The step-up, therefore, from going from something decent to something notably better, is always going to be smaller, although the improvement should always be worthwhile, in a good system.
It's rather like going from drinking some plonk at £2.99 a bottle, to decent wine at £5.99 a bottle. The incremental differences in quality above that price level are much smaller and more subtle, but definitely worth having, if you have the palate to appreciate it! ;)
Marco.
You can have your cake and eat: The Belkin speaker cables and IC's I use not only look pretty good but they suit my system too and all for a very modest outlay. Oh, I'm sure I could spend a wad and improve the situation immensely but when you ain't go a lot of dough such wonderful finds are the dog's danglies... :D
"We are still mostly in the shade today that EVERYTHING has some sort of impact on the sound perceived and those naysayers that reckon cables cannot and will not make a difference (however small) need a jolly good firm slap round the side of the head for their illogical intransigence."
Comment of the fucking year, Frank!!
I'd shove a rusty nail, right up their Jap's eye, also for good measure - just 'cos I'm bad that way!
Well this is a subjectivist forum and it is your forum, so I suppose it might be seemed to be acceptable for you to endorse such a stupid sentiment expressed.
I’m quite open in my opinion that cables cannot, and do not, have any sound of their own. Any perceived changes in sound quality, due to changing cables, depends purely on how the cable interacts with the equipment between which it connects. Unless there is an electrical mismatch (such as using a cable having a high capacitance per unit length with a device having a high output impedance), these changes will be small at best. There is likely to be as much of a change caused by the making and breaking of the connection, and thereby cleaning the contacts, as there might be in actually changing the cable.
The only improvement wrought by replacing the cheap “freebie” cables is probably due to the improved shielding of better cables (that is replacing the lapped shielding with a braided shield). There is a lot of RF hash and interference created these days due to the prevalence of SMPs. Improved shielding can help enormously: witness the use of retrofitted ferrite cable sleeves.
To return to the OP, it’s not quite true that ‘in those days’ manufacturers were ignorant of the effect of cables: Neumann have always supplied cables using very pure copper for use with their microphones. (Incidentally, I used this to connect the Quad preamp to Quad power amp.)
These days I prefer to assemble my own cables, using good quality cable and connectors. That way I have complete control over choice of both the cable and connectors, as well as with the soldering. I have been shocked with the appalling quality of soldering displayed on some up-market exotic cables (costing ~£300 a metre!)
No doubt we will never see ‘eye to eye’ over cables Marco, but I do really take exception to the sentiment you endorsed.
Regards
Any perceived changes in sound quality, due to changing cables, depends purely on how the cable interacts with the equipment between which it connects. Unless there is an electrical mismatch (such as using a cable having a high capacitance per unit length with a device having a high output impedance), these changes will be small at best. There is likely to be as much of a change caused by the making and breaking of the connection, and thereby cleaning the contacts, as there might be in actually changing the cable.
Sorry, Barry, but all my experience tells me otherwise. I have heard cable effects on too many occasions and the pat 'breaking and remaking contacts' response doesn't nearly explain it all. We'll have to disagree on this one.
Yes, Barry, but the difference is the belligerent and blinkered idiots Frank and me were referring to aren't anything like you! You're a cool 'objectivist', and open-minded with it :)
I don't think you realise how it is on other forums, and the types of characters some of us have had to deal with, who poison forums with their agenda-driven bile. It makes my blood boil just thinking about them! Blissfully, AoS is free from such scumbags.
We've been here before, mate, where I've explained this - no offence intended :cool:
Marco.
Sorry, Barry, but all my experience tells me otherwise. I have heard cable effects on too many occasions and the pat 'breaking and remaking contacts' response doesn't nearly explain it all. We'll have to disagree on this one.
I'd love anyone to have been there last Saturday when we put the 423.5 Phono cable in instead of your Dynavector one, and had heard the difference that that had made, and had called it "small" - lol!! :eek: :mental: :eyebrows:
And it had bugger all to do with remaking contacts, as the effect was repeated time after time!
It's pretty obvious to me that the plugs used on cables make just as much difference to the sound, as the cable itself. The practical experience of experimenting at length in this area has demonstrated this to me beyond any reasonable doubt.
Marco.
Well, from personal experience I know cables do have their own sonic signature. After replacing some competent Monster IC's (I forget which but they were 24 quid a set) and Cable Talk 3.1 speaker cables for cables and IC's from Belkin's AV Silver range the difference was startling. Transparency and detail improved significantly, in fact there were major improvements across the board.
anthonyTD
25-05-2012, 18:04
I'd love anyone to have been there last Saturday when we put the 423.5 Phono cable in instead of your Dynavector one, and had heard the difference that that had made, and had called it "small" - lol!! :eek: :mental: :eyebrows:
And it had bugger all to do with remaking contacts, as the effect was repeated time after time!
It's pretty obvious to me that the plugs used on cables make just as much difference to the sound, as the cable itself. The practical experience of experimenting at length in this area has demonstrated this to me beyond any reasonable doubt.
Marco.
:)
walpurgis
25-05-2012, 18:42
I agree with Barry's statement the cables have no sound. They don't as such. As I've said before ALL cables are detrimental to the original signal, because by their very nature they must alter/affect the signal to a degree. the ones we perceive as sounding good are those which have less negative impact on the quality of what we are hearing. So, there are no 'good' cables, just ones we describe as good because they are less bad! Anybody arguing that the better regarded cables are a waste of time can immediately be proved wrong with a demo involving cable swapping. The audible benefits are very evident. The proof is there! Geoff.
As I've said before ALL cables are detrimental to the original signal, because by their very nature they must alter/affect the signal to a degree. the ones we perceive as sounding good are those which have less negative impact on the quality of what we are hearing. So, there are no 'good' cables, just ones we describe as good because they are less bad!
Spot on! :)
But of course, if you accept that, then of course they *do* actually make a difference.... ;)
Marco.
Well, regardless of how we got there, we got there in the end... :lol:
Reid Malenfant
25-05-2012, 18:57
Me, I'm still using fairly cheap stuff. Different cable thicknesses depending on whats going through them frequency wise, but still nice & cheap :eyebrows:
You may wonder why, but a little thought will get you there in no time at all.
Can you imagine me investing in & swapping out 4 pairs of speaker cables, so lets say I need 4 pairs of the Tellurium Black stuff :eek:
No, It's just not happening :rfl:
Well not yet at any rate :D
anthonyTD
25-05-2012, 19:13
I agree with Barry's statement the cables have no sound. They don't as such. As I've said before
ALL cables are detrimental to the original signal, because by their very nature they must alter/affect the signal to a degree. the ones we perceive as sounding good are those which have less negative impact on the quality of what we are hearing. So, there are no 'good' cables, just ones we describe as good because they are less bad! Anybody arguing that the better regarded cables are a waste of time can immediately be proved wrong with a demo involving cable swapping. The audible benefits are very evident. The proof is there! Geoff.
:)
Spot on! :)
But of course, if you accept that, then of course they *do* actually make a difference.... ;)
Marco.
Haha! Yes, even I will grudging concur with Geoff's statement. Yet taken to it's logical conclusion, all equipment used has a negative effect so we would be better off without it - save we wouldn't hear anything at all!
I have compared supposedly good cables (or rather those cables that are considered good) both at independent blind listening tests and within my own system (un-blind, for obvious reasons). In both tests the differences were slight. I posted a write-up about the tests somewhere here on the Forum.
Martin (et al.) I never said the differences heard were solely due to the cleaning action of cable swapping - I said that it was likely to be due to such. I would claim that if changing your tone arm cable made such a noticable, consistant and repeatable difference, then there is something seriously wrong with the original cable.
Anyway, I guess this debate could run and run, but I stick to my original opinion: cables have no intrinsic sound of their own, it is all down to how they interact with the items between which they connect.
Anyway, I guess this debate could run and run, but I stick to my original opinion: cables have no intrinsic sound of their own, it is all down to how they interact with the items between which they connect.
Indeed - and that’s precisely why Martin and I heard what we did. The construction of the cable and plugs used on Martin's Dynavector, didn't "interact" with the tonearm, which they were connected to, as well as the 423.5 Phono did, because the former was intrinsically inferior - simples! :D
Marco.
Rare Bird
25-05-2012, 19:58
& how does this change the world?
By singing a happy song :)
Marco.
walpurgis
25-05-2012, 20:42
Barry sees the point exactly. Nothing is perfect! For instance, why on earth are we still listening to coned moving coil loudspeakers? Its over a hundred years since they appeared, that's not exactly technology moving on is it? The surprisingly good results they can produce is down to the fact that we have got cleverer at avoiding their worst faults and combining the more beneficial faults and characteristics into an acceptable package. This applies to all Hi-Fi hardware (& software?) I suppose and to technology as a whole no doubt. Geoff.
Martin (et al.) I never said the differences heard were solely due to the cleaning action of cable swapping - I said that it was likely to be due to such. I would claim that if changing your tone arm cable made such a noticable, consistant and repeatable difference, then there is something seriously wrong with the original cable..
The irksom bit about the whole exercise is that we are often in the dark about why one cable is better than another. Some manufacturers publish specs, but because many beleive specs are meaningless, there are many manufacturers who don't bother (who can blame them?) The thing is, cables are the simplest component, and the most easily measured, but hi-fi has wrapped itself in the mystery of black art. There is certainly some good reason for that, as the "specs wars" of the '70s illustrated - my amp has a THD of .0000001%, though it doesn't seem to let any music out either.
As mentioned, cables interact with the equipment at either end (and connectors make more of a difference than some allow), as a result they are just as subject to component mis-match as major components are. We seem to be more aware of phono cables due to the issue of capacitance on MM carts, or capacitance on cables between a passive and power amp, yet it seems that some are unable to beleive that other components could suffer ill effects.
Some good points there, Jay :)
The thing which Barry hasn't taken into consideration, however, is that what appeared to be making the biggest difference, sonically, were the Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann silver Bullet Plug RCA connectors, fitted to one of the 423.5 Phono Litz pick-up arm cables.
Barry wrote:
I would claim that if changing your tone arm cable made such a noticable, consistant and repeatable difference, then there is something seriously wrong with the original cable.
Ok, but when you're comparing identical cables, other than the connectors fitted, you can't accuse the cable of being at fault, when one (otherwise identical) cable, quite clearly, demonstrably (and repeatedly), outperforms the other! ;)
Marco.
icehockeyboy
26-05-2012, 11:28
I remember now that I personally never ever used actual bell wire, there was a local company called Ariel pressings who made all things wirey for hifi, including speaker cable that had one side with a sort of "spine" along it to be able to differentiate between + and -. It was only a slight step up from bell wire however! But oddly, the guy who got me into hifi big time, would only ever use freebie ic's and bell wire, despite having some quality kit including Crown (Amcron) and "real" American made Marantz and McIntosh kit!
At the time that I had the massive powered Phase Linear amp (700w rms) I actually had to use a twin power cable as the smaller gauge cable that I used previously used to get very hot, and indeed the binding posts on the Bose 901's got more than warm!
It was only in the mid to late 90's that I discovered the delights of after market wires, by being given a demo of the difference that a comparatively inexpensive £29.95 QED Qunect ic made against the supplied in box job.
I still say however that it is strange that it took manufacturers a long time to find out that wanky wires would make a difference to the SQ of a set up. What must it have been......20 plus years? (after separates were first popular) Of course I am referring to 1950's stuff from Quad and Radford etc.
Can you imagine me investing in & swapping out 4 pairs of speaker cables, so lets say I need 4 pairs of the Tellurium Black stuff :eek:
Best you never listen to them then, Mark. To hear them is to want them :)
You could always give the NVA LS6 that I reviewed recently a go. They're good and a lot less expensive.
Some good points there, Jay :)
The thing which Barry hasn't taken into consideration, however, is that what appeared to be making the biggest difference, sonically, were the Furutech CF-DIN(R) and Eichmann silver Bullet Plug RCA connectors, fitted to one of the 423.5 Phono Litz pick-up arm cables.
Barry wrote:
Ok, but when you're comparing identical cables, other than the connectors fitted, you can't accuse the cable of being at fault, when one (otherwise identical) cable, quite clearly, demonstrably (and repeatedly), outperforms the other! ;)
Marco.
By 'cable' I meant the complete assembly including the connectors. And yes, I believe connectors are important.
I thought the 'day and night' difference Martin and you heard was caused by changing beween the original Dynavector and the 423.5 Phono Litz pick-up arm cables.
Are you now saying a change of plug has made an even bigger difference?
Regards
Hi Barry,
Nope: it was a comparably big one :)
The difference, sonically, between Martin's Dynavector tonearm cable and the 423.5 Phono Litz (with Furutech and Eichmanns) was nearly as big between both 423.5 Phono Litz cables, one fitted with its stock connectors, and the other fitted with the 'fancy' ones, as detailed.
Marco.
Hi Barry,
Nope: it was a comparably big one :)
The difference, sonically, between Martin's Dynavector tonearm cable and the 423.5 Phono Litz (with Furutech and Eichmanns) was nearly as big between both 423.5 Phono Litz cables, one fitted with its stock connectors, and the other fitted with the 'fancy' ones, as detailed.
Marco.
Ah - so a change of connector made as much of a sonic difference as a change of cable ('cable' here meaning the bit between the connectors)?
I'm impressed and perplexed in equal measure! Looks like I'll have to come up to Wrexham and hear for myself! :eyebrows:
Regards
Indeed, old chap... You're always welcome. Don't forget the EMT cart thing we discussed, and we also have some 'business' to attend to, involving a rather splendid Haut-Médoc! ;)
Marco.
Night and day differences are always relative too. The thing for me is/was, once you get yourself attuned to a tiny difference, it then takes on a life of its own and becaomes extremely important. I used to be like this on LP12 setup, but we don't go there now :)
It's been said so many times, but the best place to start is with good inexpensive cables properly specified for the job - I mean, using thin bell wire with 1970's Crown was never a good idea (looking back a few posts) and in fact Crown back then, used to provide a chart tying speaker cable length with the gauge they recommended.
Thank heavens for the likes of Van Damme, Fisual, Klotz and Deltron/Neutrik (connectors). You can make up some good soundly designed interconnects and speaker cables that will work properly with anything out there and, if you choose to fine tune things further, there's always AOS to help show the way?
Night and day differences are always relative too. The thing for me is/was, once you get yourself attuned to a tiny difference, it then takes on a life of its own and becomes extremely important. I used to be like this on LP12 setup, but we don't go there now :)
Thank heavens for the likes of Van Damme, Fisual, Klotz and Deltron/Neutrik (connectors). You can make up some good soundly designed interconnects and speaker cables that will work properly with anything out there and, if you choose to fine tune things further, there's always AOS to help show the way?
Agreed one can become fixated on even the smallest detail.
Also agree that, assuming one can solder, perfectly adequate interconnects can be made for only a modest outlay. I have done it time and time again, using components available (on-line) from recording studio suppliers. I would concur that the Van Damme range of cables is particularly good as is Proel and Klotz.
Night and day differences are always relative too.
Indeed. Let's maintain the correct perspective here: it was as 'night & day' an improvement as I've heard from any change to an analogue source component.
Let's not forget that in a turntable set-up, the pick-up arm cable is right at the source of the music signal, therefore any information lost, diluted or distorted there CANNOT be retrieved or resolved further down the audio reproduction chain. The modified 423.5 Phono Litz, from Greece, is by far and away the best tonearm cable I've heard, in the context of maintaining the integrity of the music signal.
However it did not cause a 'night & day' improvement of the magnitude of, say, turning an acoustically dreadful room into a good sounding room, via room correction treatment, nor was it a 'night & day' improvement akin to that achieved by replacing a truly dreadful sounding pair of speakers, with spectacular sounding ones, in your hi-fi system.
Nope, this (what I've described previously with the tonearm cable in question) was a rather more subtle effect, but *very significant* in the grand scheme of things, and in the context of where the improvement was gained.
I trust that puts things into a more realistic perspective? :)
Marco.
To get back to the OP,yes we may be getting past it.I spent twenty years listening with bell wire and the i/c's that came in the box.Never had to give a thought to wires.I only changed box's when one went phut,or up in that certain smelling smoke we all know.:eyebrows:Enjoyed my music thou,must have been the drugs.These days i use all NVA wires and still don't think about changing.
I find i am selling all the gear and will end up with a SB Touch into AP70 and IPL speakers.Spotify sounds as good as my £2,000 Naim CDP now.Trouble is i keep buying headphones now,when will it all end...Obviously not past it yet.:ner:
In reference to Marco's comment (and others' upstream) about connectors, I think too many people fail to take them into account, and they can have a greater effect than many think. It looks like such a small part of the signal path, but consider what is happening when you slap a chunk of brass on the end of that wonderful 6-nine UPOCC copper wire (or on silver, shudder). It's like fitting a corroded and clogged spray nozzle on a 1" hosepipe. The water still gets through, but not quite as one would wish.
Yes indeedy-o...
And that's why, just like there's no such thing as 'good' cables, only 'less bad' ones, it's the EXACT same with connectors, and why, based on the analogy you've just made, that using 'less bad' connectors can give such significant sonic improvements! ;)
Marco.
Still waiting for a night and day improvement regarding cables i believe it doesn't exist at the end of the day you can't polish a turd, it all goes back to how good your source componants are to start with IMHO, i have made up my own interconnects with info from a thread that Barry posted some time ago using Maplins Microphone cable with Neutrik plugs and have found them perfectly adequite and cost less the a tenner a pair, perhaps someone could find this thread and post it to see what others think
ColinWonfor
27-05-2012, 04:46
Still waiting for a night and day improvement regarding cables i believe it doesn't exist at the end of the day you can't polish a turd, it all goes back to how good your source componants are to start with IMHO, i have made up my own interconnects with info from a thread that Barry posted some time ago using Maplins Microphone cable with Neutrik plugs and have found them perfectly adequite and cost less the a tenner a pair, perhaps someone could find this thread and post it to see what others think
So you have a good picture (source) you look at it through frosted glass, do you see the original. Now put sun glasses on is it still good? now fit a hood on your head and turn the lights out, it is still a good picture, but are your senses now picking out the details the artist produced.
So we have a great recording of Jon Boy singing "my way", we place a rose prickle on a cardboard cone and play the record (big round black thing) lovely sound NOT.
To get the best we must find from the huge collection of designs a matching set to :-
1) Allow us to eat after buying it.
2) Appeal to our darling partner eyes
3) And then get the sound you want so we can hear Jon Boy is his full glory.
:)
Jon Boy is his full glory.
:)
Now theres a sight this morning :D
Brains to fuddled to comprehend the above, yes i believe cables improve things but just can't see for the money or havn't heard the big wow thing yet with them, there is only so many zero's you can put after a piece of copper,
perhaps the improvements that can be seen or heard are only down to the better manufacturing techniques that extract the source material to start with for the wire are the things that give the biggest improvments and thus giving you a purer product to work with from the start.
I'm off now to a AA metting to talk about my issues which will hopefully stop me posting things at 1 oclock in the morning after too many shots of vodka and digging myself a great big hole.
10 quid a metre yes but 1500 quid, not on your nelly.
I can't write or think for toffee today perhaps i will bypass the AA meeting and go straight back down the pub.
Ignorence is bliss :ner:
over and out
BTH K10A
27-05-2012, 08:27
Still waiting for a night and day improvement regarding cables i believe it doesn't exist at the end of the day you can't polish a turd, it all goes back to how good your source componants are to start with IMHO, i have made up my own interconnects with info from a thread that Barry posted some time ago using Maplins Microphone cable with Neutrik plugs and have found them perfectly adequite and cost less the a tenner a pair, perhaps someone could find this thread and post it to see what others think
Jon, I assume your talking about the Van Damme LC-OFC mic cable from Maplins. Excellent well designed screened cable that I found to be as good as any cable on the market. You can use it in single ended, pseudo balanced and fully balance configurations. :)
I went through a phase of trying different (often very expensive) cable and eventually came to the conclusion that as long as they are of sound design and make a good connection then that's all you neen. Indeed some of the very expensive cables I tried did not sound as godd as the low cost ones I use.
I would agree with Barry's comment earlier on in this thread. Cables/interconnects can alther the sound slightly through resistance, inpedance etc. changes but they will be small. If a large change is noticed then there must be something wrong with the original kit.
...or something is just intrinsically better, through design, in the first place. Just like some amps and speakers are unquestionably superior to others, so it is with some cables.
There was nothing 'wrong' with Martin's Dynavector tonearm cable; merely that it was simply outclassed by one which was designed better, all round (the 423.5 Phono Litz, from Greece, fitted with a Furutech DIN and Eichmann silver Bullet Plugs). Simples! :)
Marco.
Still waiting for a night and day improvement regarding cables I believe it doesn't exist at the end of the day you can't polish a turd, it all goes back to how good your source componants are to start with IMHO, I have made up my own interconnects with info from a thread that Barry posted some time ago using Maplins Microphone cable with Neutrik plugs and have found them perfectly adequite and cost less than a tenner a pair, perhaps someone could find this thread and post it to see what others think
Here it is:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4358&page=6 (post 54)
I make no great claims for 'my' cables: they do their job very well for a reasonable outlay.
No doubt others will prefer more exotic and expensive cables. That is their perogative - it's their ears and their money! :)
ColinWonfor
27-05-2012, 16:40
From Jonboy
Ignorence is bliss
over and out
__________________
Jon
Often.:cool:
Did you mean 'for', instead of 'from', Colin? :)
If not, I don't get what you mean....
Marco.
ColinWonfor
27-05-2012, 18:02
From Jonboy
Ignorence is bliss
over and out
__________________
Jon
Often.:cool:
Ignorence is bliss often it is :cool:
icehockeyboy
28-05-2012, 11:21
From Jonboy
Ignorence is bliss
over and out
__________________
Jon
Often.:cool:
Colin,
I sent you a pm with a query over a week ago, did you receive it, as I haven't had a reply yet...........:scratch:
No doubt others will prefer more exotic and expensive cables. That is their perogative - it's their ears and their money! :)
Thanks Barry,
As above horses for courses :)
ColinWonfor
28-05-2012, 17:59
Colin,
I sent you a pm with a query over a week ago, did you receive it, as I haven't had a reply yet...........:scratch:
Sorry nothing in my in box please try again.
Col
icehockeyboy
02-06-2012, 21:25
Sorry nothing in my in box please try again.
Col
Sent again.
Craig
ColinWonfor
02-06-2012, 22:28
Sent again.
Craig
Answered
Col
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