View Full Version : ADC Pickup Cartridges.
walpurgis
23-05-2012, 12:14
Who is familiar with these? I still have small a collection of Audio Dynamics Corporation (ADC) pickup cartridges that have accumulated over the years. I retain a 26, three 10E Mk.IV's and a 10E Mk.II. They all sound superb and have stood comparison to many moving coil types, various Deccas and many supposedly good magnetic cartridges. I've also owned the ADC XLMIII and found that similarly good. The detail and transparency of ADCs takes some beating and the tracking ability is very good. Bass is very extended too. I currently use ZYX MCs most of the time, but go back to using the ADCs from time to time and am never disappointed. For quite a while I was using the well respected Denon 103R alongside my 10E Mk.IV and the ADC definitely had the edge in sound quality. Any other users out there? Geoff.
Yeah yeah yeah - but you'd be hard put to convince anybody :)
To be fair to the competition, the induced magnet ADC's (all the better known ones) have a gentle kind of approach, good tracking and a "softish" kind of dynamic presentation (mellifluous?) IMO. Lovely and musical, if not the last word in dynamic accuracy.
I have a new 26 stylus and I find this cartridge is all but unusable unless the arm has zero mass. Even then, the tracing of sibilants is poor for me (Andr'e may have different results). The original "new" XLM I have is little better but with the series II, the tracking started to improve I found. The VLM is perfect for a Techie arm, as is the XLM III, ZLM series and a rather nice Phase IV I have too :rolleyes:
Much as I love my ADC's and related lovely Sonus Blue, a GOOD Supex 900E does everything the ADC's do and more, apart from extreme tracking, which varies on my two samples. The Ortofon MC30 Super used away from a Linn turntable has superb clarity in the AT OC9 category and perhaps a retipped DL103 with elliptical tip may be great as well if it likes the arm and phono stage it's connected to.
So yeah, great cartridges from the era they were made in, but the advent of CD DID wake up the vinyl playback industry no end and modern cartridges, if chosen correctly, should be able to show these old ADC's a clean pair of heels..
Beobloke
23-05-2012, 13:39
I have an ADC LMA-1.
I wouldn't dream of using anything else in my Accutrac 4000....;)
Rare Bird
23-05-2012, 19:08
Ive just lost a 10E Mk.IV's today that put me in a foul mood, so who won it?
:steam:
My '26' will worsk like a dream in my arm which has a mega low mass..
walpurgis
23-05-2012, 22:49
Yeah yeah yeah - but you'd be hard put to convince anybody :)
To be fair to the competition, the induced magnet ADC's (all the better known ones) have a gentle kind of approach, good tracking and a "softish" kind of dynamic presentation (mellifluous?) IMO. Lovely and musical, if not the last word in dynamic accuracy.
I have a new 26 stylus and I find this cartridge is all but unusable unless the arm has zero mass. Even then, the tracing of sibilants is poor for me (Andr'e may have different results). The original "new" XLM I have is little better but with the series II, the tracking started to improve I found. The VLM is perfect for a Techie arm, as is the XLM III, ZLM series and a rather nice Phase IV I have too :rolleyes:
Much as I love my ADC's and related lovely Sonus Blue, a GOOD Supex 900E does everything the ADC's do and more, apart from extreme tracking, which varies on my two samples. The Ortofon MC30 Super used away from a Linn turntable has superb clarity in the AT OC9 category and perhaps a retipped DL103 with elliptical tip may be great as well if it likes the arm and phono stage it's connected to.
So yeah, great cartridges from the era they were made in, but the advent of CD DID wake up the vinyl playback industry no end and modern cartridges, if chosen correctly, should be able to show these old ADC's a clean pair of heels..
Have you only tried the ADCs in a Technics arm? They won't be happy there.
Mine have in the past been used in a Decca International arm, an Ittok and more recently in a lightly fluid damped Mission 774 (original version, slightly modifed). They worked just fine, with the Mission being the best match.
The Denon DL103R is an elliptical tipped DL103 and the ADCs were better, it was a close thing though. I have actually run my ADCs alongside my own good Supex SD 900E and an Osawa OS-60L (which are closely related designs -- check the family history. So are the original Asak & Koetsu's by the way) and did not find the ADCs wanting in ability.
I'd like to hear a modern MM cartridge that can better the ADCs, as I haven't yet. The recent Ortofons and Audio Technicas don't as far as I've heard. In the past the only seriously notable other MMs were the Grace F9E and the JVC X1, which were renowned, but I've not had the chance to hear them.
I wouldn't suggest that ADCs are 'The Best', but what is? They are very good used properly, even if they are 40 years old. Geoff.
...
The Denon DL103R is an elliptical tipped DL103...
No, they're not. Still conical diamond, unless you have had it modded..
http://www.hifiklubben.com/files/test/Denon/DENDL103R_HiFiChoice_200610.pdf
BR /Mike
walpurgis
24-05-2012, 09:04
No, they're not. Still conical diamond, unless you have had it modded..
http://www.hifiklubben.com/files/test/Denon/DENDL103R_HiFiChoice_200610.pdf
BR /Mike
Quite right. I stand corrected.
Have you only tried the ADCs in a Technics arm? They won't be happy there.
Mine have in the past been used in a Decca International arm, an Ittok and more recently in a lightly fluid damped Mission 774 (original version, slightly modifed). They worked just fine, with the Mission being the best match.
The Denon DL103R is an elliptical tipped DL103 and the ADCs were better, it was a close thing though. I have actually run my ADCs alongside my own good Supex SD 900E and an Osawa OS-60L (which are closely related designs -- check the family history. So are the original Asak & Koetsu's by the way) and did not find the ADCs wanting in ability.
I'd like to hear a modern MM cartridge that can better the ADCs, as I haven't yet. The recent Ortofons and Audio Technicas don't as far as I've heard. In the past the only seriously notable other MMs were the Grace F9E and the JVC X1, which were renowned, but I've not had the chance to hear them.
I wouldn't suggest that ADCs are 'The Best', but what is? They are very good used properly, even if they are 40 years old. Geoff.
I have a couple of ADC fixed coil cartridges: a 10E Mk. IV and a 25 (with the choice of three stylii). I haven't used them for years but had no trouble with tracking in an SME arm. I ought to dig them out and have another listen (this time using an Infinity 'Black Widow' arm (effective mass 3g) or a Breuer 5 arm (effective mass 4g)). From memory they, as Dave (DSJR) has reported, were 'soft' and 'smooth', in comparison to the Shure V15 III of the day.
I'm not up to date with modern MMs as most of my vinyl playback is done with MCs (EMT, Ortofon SPU and SL15, and Denon 103's), but one fixed-coil design that I'll never abandon is the Decca. The latter is unique and requires enormous care in setting up - but when carefully installed, does things that no other cartridge on the planet can do!
I am at the moment auditioning a Grace F15 fitted with the F9E stylus. The F15 was supposed to be the final development by Grace of the F9E. So far it seems to be a very capable design and a fine performer.
I once heard the JVC X-1 shortly after its release. From memory it displayed superb attack and transient behaviour (probably as good as the Decca) but those were the only things that stood out for me at the time.
As you say:
"I wouldn't suggest that ADCs are 'The Best', but what is? They are very good [when] used properly, even if they are 40 years old."
To the OP... You may not know this, but I worked in audio since the early 70's till a few years ago and set up countless turntables (and own(ed) a good few) in my time in the industry.
I said the VLM worked fine in a techie arm, as would the later XLM III and ZLM in the later lower mass Techie arm. The earlier ultra-high compliance models will barely work in anything in all honesty and the best arms for these were the Transcriptors Fluid arm, the Mayware, Grace 707, SME Improved with fixed shell and light damping and others such as the Infinity Black Widow and very low mass AT arms.
Rare Bird
24-05-2012, 15:59
Here's my Mayware with ADC '26' I freshly rewired the arm this morning :eyebrows:
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/Picture019.jpg
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/Tags.jpg
Looking good, dude! Why not post a pic of your whole T/T, including the Mayware and ADC, in the picture competition thread? :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
24-05-2012, 16:08
I would do but the decks in bits on the floor atm :lol:
Let's see that :lol:
The preparation of tags etc is superb Andr'e. Well done :) My ADC 26 has gone cream with age (it's not a 27 either) and doesn't look as "new" as yours.
I would do but the decks in bits on the floor atm :lol:
Ah, okies, after she's come through 'surgery', then! :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
24-05-2012, 16:31
Excuse the skirting board off cut :lol: but she's all ready for mounting :eyebrows:
Arghhhh O no, look at that finger print on the counterbalance weight :eek:
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/BackEnd.jpg
Andr'e, that pic brought back memories I long thought buried in the mists of time.. Not sure I wanted to be reminded though as I set up so many of these in my time ;)
walpurgis
24-05-2012, 17:06
To the OP... You may not know this, but I worked in audio since the early 70's till a few years ago and set up countless turntables (and own(ed) a good few) in my time in the industry.
I said the VLM worked fine in a techie arm, as would the later XLM III and ZLM in the later lower mass Techie arm. The earlier ultra-high compliance models will barely work in anything in all honesty and the best arms for these were the Transcriptors Fluid arm, the Mayware, Grace 707, SME Improved with fixed shell and light damping and others such as the Infinity Black Widow and very low mass AT arms.
Yes, I'd agree that the later XLM variants, VLM and ZLM will be OK in a Technics arm. I've used the XLM III and the rarer Integra versions in such an arm with no problems. Its the 10 and 20 series that would be too compliant.
The Transcriptors Fluid Arm was indeed a natural match to the ADC 26 and 10E Mk.IV masswise and was recommend as such by the Hi-Fi press back in the day. I didn't have a liking for it myself, it was a rather resonant arm which gave a peculiar character to the sound. Back then, the best match I found was the Decca International arm, which worked well. As has been suggested, the Infinity Black Widow may fit the bill, although I do remember it's sound quality being slated in reviews. As I indicated previously, my Mission 774 arms (original John Bicht versions) are an excellent match. Geoff.
Here's my Mayware with ADC '26' I freshly rewired the arm this morning :eyebrows:
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/Picture019.jpg
http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w425/ELPFAN1968/Tags.jpg
Wow - looking good André! I'm now tempted to install my '25'. :)
0.7g tops in play-weight. One gramme may cause collapse...
The Fluid arm I tried was on a good delected new 401 in custom plinth. Sounded fine to me, but obviously at a client's home so no chance of comparison. The Black Widow is probably useless for modern cartridges and in some ways, the SME "Improved" arms are as well, but I think the likes of the high compliance ADC's, top model Empires and the V15T2 and 3 may just be ok, since they don't seem to "load" the arm in quite the same way.
The 774 fetches quite a bit of money now and the finish on the early ones was disgraceful. Later ones were far better finished, but I don't think Mission cared for softly sprung belt drive decks such as the LP12, Logic DM101 and Systemdek. The very heavy exit cable totally bypassed the suspension in a not good way IMO and by then we were selling Ittoks to the blind at a frightening rate, not realising we were selling a significant downgrade to the LP12 of the time, until the glued sub-chassis came along anyway, and even then.........
Is it possible to aquire a reasonable replacement stylus for an XLM III which i have in my posession?
It is a bit worn and would really benefit from a tune up... And s it worth the cost?
BR Mike
The Black Widow is probably useless for modern cartridges and in some ways, the SME "Improved" arms are as well, ...
Slightly off topic, but I have had success running Decca's in the Infinity 'Black Widow' arm.
Geoff, it's true Hi-Fi News thought little of the Black Widow arm, neither did Martin Colloms in the 'Choice' collective reviews, but the likes of Harry Pearson (in The Absolute Sound) had quite the opposite view. (Chris Frankland also thought it was a good arm (with the Decca) - but maybe we shouldn't go there! :eyebrows:) The Decca International was a damped arm (I used to have one), so I imagine might work well with the 25/26.
Regards
I had an early International arm and found it a bit coloured in sound - heavy bass.. T'would probably work fine today with a re-wire and sympathetic setup.
You know, following on from another thread here regarding early 70's non use of fancy add-ons and wires etc, it's amazing how well SOME iffy vintage products seem to transform themselves with some modern day thinking applied. There was still a lot of dross out there at the time, but the best bits just come to life with some up to date setting up and component tweaks.
I've been saying exactly that ever since I 'discovered' the M3D, and then the G800, oh and not to mention, Celestion Ditton 15XRs, exshettera, exshettera... ;)
It that doesn't prove how important decent cables/stands and setting up is, and also the intrinsic high quality of some vintage gear, I don't know what does!
Marco.
walpurgis
25-05-2012, 10:34
A Decca in a Black Widow pickup arm? That's a bit of lateral thinking, but if it works.......
My Decca International arm was the earlier version with the long stem and metal headshell. It worked well with Decca's own cartridges for which it was designed and with my ADCs and no obvious colourations were present. The later Internationals had plastic headshells, which I believe were similar to those used on the Connoisseur SAU2 arm and this may have been the cause of colourations.
The Shure M3D and M7D seem to have developed a bit of a 'cult' following recently. I can't see it myself. I owned the M3D-M and found it pretty limited, it was after all the bottom model in Shure's cartridge line up for years and sold for about £4.00 back then (the superior M75E type II was about £11 in the early seventies). I also still have a Goldring G800 and it sounds pleasant as all the 800 series did, but its nothing spectacular.
I had my first Mission 774 arm on a Garrard 401. It replaced the Ittok I'd been using for a number of years. The Ittok proving to be clearly inferior to the Mission, despite the huge difference in value (and prestige) at the time. The 774 was used with the following cartridges: Ortofon SPU, Decca 4RC, Decca Londons Blue and Silver, various ADCs, Supex SD900, Fidelity Research MC 201, and my favourite the Technics EPC-305 MC. The Mission coped with all these just fine with varied fluid damping. I now keep three Missions, two for use, one for spares. If you fettle them properly they sound excellent. Geoff.
Rare Bird
25-05-2012, 10:59
I used the original Mission '774' for years with Pickering 'XLZ-7500S'/'PLZ' Superb.
The Shure M3D and M7D seem to have developed a bit of a 'cult' following recently. I can't see it myself. I owned the M3D-M and found it pretty limited, it was after all the bottom model in Shure's cartridge line up for years and sold for about £4.00 back then (the superior M75E type II was about £11 in the early seventies). I also still have a Goldring G800 and it sounds pleasant as all the 800 series did, but its nothing spectacular.
I'll get to this later, Geoff! ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
25-05-2012, 11:31
:popcorn:
Beobloke
25-05-2012, 11:48
The Shure M3D and M7D seem to have developed a bit of a 'cult' following recently. I can't see it myself. I owned the M3D-M and found it pretty limited, it was after all the bottom model in Shure's cartridge line up for years and sold for about £4.00 back then (the superior M75E type II was about £11 in the early seventies). I also still have a Goldring G800 and it sounds pleasant as all the 800 series did, but its nothing spectacular.
Well said, that man! :ner:
Phil Bishop here has an M3-D in a lenco 59 (with arm similar to the GL70) and claims it sounds bloody marvelous once he got the tracking sorted - Jico stylus by the way, as Shure originals lose their diamonds with corrosion quite often...
Since I like cleanish treble, I'd also recommend the 500 based Ortofon GT and the silver issue OM Pro. Both fairly cheap and similar need for 4g playing weight. Solid sound with substance, reasonable tracking only limited by the conical tip and that kind of low-compliance stability in the right arm :)
Well said, that man! :ner:
Only because either of you will likely not have heard said cartridges with the correct ancillaries needed for them to realise their full potential! Think high-mass designs here.
Remember, for example, that the Beeb used to use the G800, for broadcasting purposes, with 'battleship build' Gray Research tonearms (on Gates turntables), so it ain't gonna work properly on something 'flimsy', or indeed on many types of modern tonearms, which tend to be much lower mass.
Also, remember the results that you got, Adam, with another cartridge you 'hate to love', the dear old DL-103, when you fitted it on your (was it Empire) turntable, and its uber high-mass arm? ;)
It's all about synergy, shweety!!
Furthermore, in the case of the G800, one must take into consideration the fact that there are now superb re-tips and high-quality modern cantilevers available for them from Dom, at NW Analogue. When you've heard the difference that those make to the sonic performance of the humble old G800, you'd retract your misguided remarks, pronto! :eyebrows:
Like I said, though, I'll answer Geoff's post properly later. It deserves a proper answer.
Marco.
Beobloke
25-05-2012, 13:15
To be fair I must give the M3D another bash in my recently Audio-Origami'd Empire 990 arm.
Incidentally, I wonder where it is? Last time I saw it, Ursula was using its hefty stylus to cut out pastry for mince pies..... :scratch:
Indeed, they double as good toothpicks, too! :eyebrows:
Seriously, though, before you give it whirl, get hold of an N21D stylus (plenty of quality ones available on eBay. Here's one: http://www.williamthakker.eu/Shure-N-3-D-Shure-N-12-D-Shure-N-21-D-entspricht-11679_c10-69-114_p4947_side355890225faea3ee007f7a310212bfc_x2.h tm), which tracks at a more sensible 2.3g (optimal), rather than the 3-3.5g of the original one.
The improvement that the N21D stylus brings is rather notable! Oh, and thus done, keep the M3D for playing your vintage jazz recordings and Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra records, etc, and all recordings of acoustic instruments, which is what it excells at reproducing...
Marco.
Mine's got a pattern N21 stylus in it (the original Shure has a hole where the diamond and shank were mounted)..... The Empire arm is superb as I remember, but the small headshell could be an issue with some cartridges like Supexes I remember.
Greeting, I'm new here (just started posting yesterday) and stumbled upon this thread today.
I was wondering whether anyone would be able to assist an elderly audiophile friend of mine? :D
He's been running an ADC26 for years now and it recently gave up the ghost. Repairs have been unsuccessful and he has now turned to me (he doesn't use the internet) to try and help him find another 26 (or a 25), since he still has 2 x NOS 26 replacement styli and doesn't want them to go to waste (plus he's as stubborn as a mule and does not want to listen to anything else).
Any leads appreciated and thanks in advance ;)
Feel free to PM me, cheers!
walpurgis
16-06-2012, 20:13
I think I've got a spare 10E Mk.1V body knocking about. The only difference from the 26 is the colour and the styli are interchangeable. That should do the job. Interested? My fee would be minimal. Geoff.
I think I've got a spare 10E Mk.1V body knocking about. The only difference from the 26 is the colour and the styli are interchangeable. That should do the job. Interested? My fee would be minimal. Geoff.
No, not true: the 25 and 26 are identical (the 26 was coloured white and came with an elliptical stylus, the 25 was coloured black and came with three stylii: two elliptical, one spherical).
The 10E Mk. IV was a similar, but separate design. It can take and use the same stylii as the 25/26. The 10E Mk. IV was a very good design, but it was not identical to the 25/26.
To be fair I must give the M3D another bash in my recently Audio-Origami'd Empire 990 arm.
Incidentally, I wonder where it is? Last time I saw it, Ursula was using its hefty stylus to cut out pastry for mince pies..... :scratch:
:offtopic:
Totally irrelevant to this thread I know but when I was a mere youth of 16 or so and starting to put my first HiFi systems together I came across a Shure M3D in my local electrical store (the sort that sold everything from fuses through turntables to washing machines with a bloke in a brown coat behind the counter :) Anyway, bought it (must have been cheap as it was pocket money purchase) as it was "moving coil" and I'd heard they were better than the MM Goldring G800 I had in my Garard SP25 IV - took me years before I understood the reason for the significantly reduced volume :doh::doh:
Steve
The M3-D is a mm type with a goodly output like the G800 Steve.. The G800 doesn't sound too well in the SP25 series of tonearms (neither does the AT95E for some reason either) and is pretty horrible in the AP76 arm too, yet it sings nicely in the massy Technics SL1500 tonearm (and it's related brethren from the mid 70's).
Thanks Marco for the Thakker link to the n21 stylus. It wouldn't surprise me if EsCo wouldn't have a selected third party replacement too, as they do for the M75-ED for twenty quid or so - and I very much doubt they'd sell cr@p replacements as it would harm their main re-tipping/re-building business.
The thing about the ADC25 and 26 (owned both and still run a 26) is that the compliance is so high as to make it all but unusable these days. Even the Mayware's and fixed head SME II and III arms are near the limit. What you do get is a powerful bass which the Shure v15's and XLM's lack but today, the treble tracking ability is very limited on more recent "hot" cuts, as any attempt to track at over 1g causes instability and bottoming out if you're unlucky.
Bluz Bros in the US had original replacement styli at one time and also one for the ADC 27 of which I know nothing as the XLM all but took over in the UK in the early 70's. Perhaps someone here knows if the 27 may have slightly lower compliance as the XLM mk2 did?
The M3-D is a mm type with a goodly output like the G800 Steve..
Heck - memory worse than I thought - I could have sworn it was an M3D :eyebrows: big heavy lump with a red dot on the front?
Steve
Many thanks chaps for the replies and the information re the 25, 26 & 10E Mk.1V!
I think I will give Geoff's spare 10E Mk.1V a try, although I expect my friend to say that it "sounds" different from his 26! :doh:
So I will nevertheless still be interested in hearing from anyone with a spare 25 or 26 wanting to give it a new life :)
Cheers!
Heck - memory worse than I thought - I could have sworn it was an M3D :eyebrows: big heavy lump with a red dot on the front?
Steve
Nope :lol:
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0438.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0431.jpg
Oh well - closer to the funny farm than I thought :mental:
Steve
Many thanks chaps for the replies and the information re the 25, 26 & 10E Mk.1V!
I think I will give Geoff's spare 10E Mk.1V a try, although I expect my friend to say that it "sounds" different from his 26! :doh:
So I will nevertheless still be interested in hearing from anyone with a spare 25 or 26 wanting to give it a new life :)
Cheers!
Dear all,
Geoff's cartridge arrived on Saturday and passed I it to my elderly friend yesterday.
He called me last night, after he had a chance to test it in his system with the stylus from his 26 and told me that it sounded almost identical to his 26, albeit with a bit less high frequency extension than he remembered from his 26.
I jokingly asked him whether he was sure and whether it could be his ears :P and he said maybe, although (being as stubborn as he is) he still wants me to continue looking for a 26 for him, just to be sure ... so the search continues!
Onemonk909
24-04-2020, 23:20
Hi! Just curious if any of you would have any idea how a Nagaoka MP110 would compare to an ADC XLM MKII cartridge with a 114-DEC stylus (ie the XLM-I)? I have a new old stock 114-DEC, still in the box unopened, but I have not used it yet because I need to replace the wires in the ADC's headshell. But I've really been looking at the Nagaoka, and it has a ton of positive reviews. Since the ADC is so old, I can't find too many reviews for it! I see you all are familiar with the ADC line, just curious if you have any knowledge of how it would compare to the Nagaoka. The needle specs seem very similar for both stylii, with the same 0.4x0.7 profile. Thanks!
walpurgis
25-04-2020, 07:33
Not done the comparison, but ADC's offer a degree of transparency, detail and neutrality that would normally be associated with a decent MC (which is why I've kept mine).
Hi,
swapped a V15III for the ZLM back in early '80's and haven't seen the need to change since. In fact, as one went faulty at one point and I had some spare stylii, I decided to look for a spare cartridge. I found one on e-bay but had to buy an SL1200 to get it. It seemed to have lost a little top end so I swapped styli and that seemed to be the cause. More recently I picked up a gold ZLM cartridge - no idea what is the difference??
Anyway, the ZLM did not track inner grooves well in the SL1200 but that may have been an issue with the arm. Later when I picked up a Thorens TD160 with the SME III arm and V15III, I swapped the head shell into the Sl1200 and it ran fine. After some 35 years I was surprised how different the V15 sounded, compared with the ZLM. Less punch and bass, but light and airy.
I was always a belt drive guy and I probably scoffed at the SL1200 way back then but found this one to be barely distinguishable from my Rega Planar 3 when running the same cartridges.
Talking other Shure cartridges, I also picked up a Conniseur BD2 at one point, with stock arm (SAU2) and M75 cartridge and, while it wasn't up to the Rega/ZLM it was very musical and fun to listen to. I swapped a M95 into it and it just didn't work. Funny that. Don't know much about the SAU2 arm but it looks very light and perhaps the M95 compliance is wrong.
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