View Full Version : A new toy to play with...
Guys,
A while back when I was auditioning SUTs (vintage and otherwise), and before I was committed to buying an Ortofon ST-80SE (from Simon at Hifi Sound, who had kindly loaned me the unit, for a period of time to assess it), I had spoken with Peter, from Deco Audio, and he had told me about some bespoke all-silver wound transformers, from Germany, from a small company called Silvercore, which he reckoned were rather special.
The unit in question is priced at £935, and is specifically designed to match the Ortofon SPU.
The chap who makes them does so to order only, and the lead time is some three months, so I decided to order one, on loan, from Peter and wait until it arrived, as the design and specialist nature of this unit intrigued me. Well, today it arrived:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7572/silvercore4464front.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/26/silvercore4464front.jpg/)
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1926/silvercore4499spu.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/silvercore4499spu.jpg/)
More info here: http://www.silvercore.de/index.php?silvercore-mc
And here: http://www.decoaudio.com/deco_audio_step_up_tx.html
It's a very smart looking thing, and solidly built, too. Therefore, over the next few weeks I'll be putting it through its paces, and comparing it with the ST-80SE, with a view to buying it, if it ousts the (£1200) Ortofon, and given how that's sounding now, that will be a tough task!
The significant difference between the two, of course, is the all-silver wound transformers, of the Silvercore, which is why I wanted to try it. Anyway, look out for periodic updates, in due course. It should be an interesting listen! :cool:
Marco.
I have here the cheaper model Silvercore one-to-ten as a loan as one of my friends is selling it. Interesting to hear how do you rank the older sibling.. :)
http://www.stereophile.com/images/511litsen.silvercore.jpg
Hi Mika,
Remember that this is the one specially designed for the SPU...
Well, it's sounding damned fine at the moment! It still has to run-in of course, which I've been advised generally takes a few days. I'll certainly be giving it at least that length of time before forming any conclusive opinions :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
23-05-2012, 15:24
Omg marco this is exactly what I was looking for. I intended using a choir audio sut with silver RCA sockets and the silver plated cu, this looks the biz and it's under a grand. I wait with very baited breath
Lol - I thought that it would appeal to your silver fetish! :eyebrows:
It sounds really good, but the ST-80SE has the edge on it at the moment, probably because the Silvercore hasn't run-in yet, but all the signs are there that it will flesh out and become even better :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
23-05-2012, 18:20
Silver fetish, cheeky bugger! I've heard about your weekend frolics with your various frocks and skirts :ner: Anyway, does this thing have silver RCA input the choir audio sut??:scratch:
Yes, everything about it is silver, including the silver leather bondage shorts, which come free with the unit, and must be worn on your head in a jaunty manner... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
23-05-2012, 19:08
Yes, everything about it is silver, including the silver leather bondage shorts, which come free with the unit, and must be worn on your head in a jaunty manner... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Coolio! Now start listening more to the SUT and give us some feedback (meant in the nicest possible way) (Silver leather bondage shorts optional whilst listening) :D
Wakefield Turntables
23-05-2012, 19:17
Marco,
Just a thought. Are you using balanced or RCA connectors?? Looking at the website it might be more beneficial for balanced tonearm out into balanced SUT and then balanced phonostage?? I'd like to get some feedback from others on the subject. If this is more beneficial then it looks like the tonearm cable from Yannis might need to be modified :(
Andy
Haven't experience of my own but one of my friends recommends always to use balanced if possible. I guess it is because of the better shielding but..
Reid Malenfant
23-05-2012, 19:58
Haven't experience of my own but one of my friends recommends always to use balanced if possible. I guess it is because of the better shielding but..
It makes a whole lot of sense (been here before & drawn the diagram :eyebrows:) to go balanced from an MC cartridge through to the SUT :) Any interference will be picked up by both centre conductors on the cable & when it's fed into each side of the SUT it'll be canceled due to the common mode rejection.
The output from the SUT would be best kept single ended as you'd need a totally different phono pre amp & besides which in this instance with active electronics involved would actually add about 6dB of extra noise from what I have been lead to believe :scratch:
Just a thought. Are you using balanced or RCA connectors??
RCAs, dude. There are no balanced connections anywhere in my system.
I totally accept and buy the argument for balanced, especially where Mark's coming from, but unless someone is willing to do the necessary shenanigans for me, so I can just have something 'plug & play', it ain't gonna happen... ;)
Marco.
Andy (and anyone else who's interested),
Having now listened to the unit, for around a week, and used it during that period for all my vinyl listening, I can say categorically that the Silvercore is a high-quality item, so if you want to investigate using one (or buying one outright), wound to optimise your Cadenza Black, then my advice is to go right ahead, as you won't be disappointed!
I'm still in the process of assessing whether I prefer it overall to the Ortofon, and my interim thoughts on the matter are that 'I think so'. However, I'll come to a firm conclusion, once I've switched back to using the Ortofon, later in the week, which will be the acid test, with my ears having been accustomed for a while to the sonic signature of the Silvercore.
It's that crucial switch-back to a familiar reference that so often determines whether something is intrinsically better, or merely just different. I'll report back, in that respect, in due course! Meanwhile, if you want the ultimate, then consider the Silvercore MC Pro, at a mere £3.5k, which has all-balanced connections! ;)
http://www.silvercore.de/index.php?silvercore-mc-pro-1
One day, perhaps...
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
28-05-2012, 14:51
Marco,
Thanks for the update so far, I'l wait a little longer for some more of your thoughts. I've been thinking about the RCA/balanced options for my phonostage and I think I may end getting one of these http://www.avidhifi.co.uk/electronics_pulsare_2.htm. You can have RCA input and output to XLR's. So unbalanced in but balanced out. This sure does solve a lot of problems and its also got some extremely positive reviews. So, I'll probably end up getting this new SUT to play with and then use in conjunction with the pulsare II :D
Andy
Reid Malenfant
28-05-2012, 15:13
You can have RCA input and output to XLR's. So unbalanced in but balanced out.
Andy
That's backwards for the best performance, though it does mean your new cable will work with it.
You'll most likely find that if you could see the circuitry on the balanced input of the phono stage (well I'm assuming you have a phono stage with balanced inputs) that there will be some kind of instrumentation amplifier converting it to single ended before it gets fed to the phono stage. Otherwise it'd be noisier :scratch:
Mark, did you check out the Silvercore Pro, which is fully balanced? One day (in the not too distance future) it shall be mine! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
28-05-2012, 15:21
Mark,
It seems like I'm doomed to RCA output throughout :( My current phonostage the Sugden Masterclass PA-4 Phono Amplifier is great but I think better products exist. I've always hankered for balanced output from the tonearm but that would mean sending various bits of my kit all over the conuntry for modification :doh:
Andy
Reid Malenfant
28-05-2012, 15:25
Mark, did you check out the Silvercore Pro, which is fully balanced? One day (in the not too distance future) it shall be mine! ;)
Marco.
I just did, I must have missed the link earlier :eyebrows:
You could still run it with single ended outputs, the same as they state it can be run with a single ended input, though why the hell you'd want to do that rather than run balanced I have no idea :lol:
The spec sounds good & it looks the business, you'd need a different cable, but I'm sure your friend in Greece could sort you out :D
Reid Malenfant
28-05-2012, 15:30
Mark,
It seems like I'm doomed to RCA output throughout :( My current phonostage the Sugden Masterclass PA-4 Phono Amplifier is great but I think better products exist. I've always hankered for balanced output from the tonearm but that would mean sending various bits of my kit all over the conuntry for modification :doh:
Andy
Andy, you seem pretty handy at stripping & rebuilding things like Garrards :)
If you can can do that, how difficult do you think it'd be to fit a couple of XLR sockets to your SUT & alter the wiring - assuming you took pictures & were shown what to do?
Admittedly you'd need a new cable from the tonearm, but I feel sure that given a bit of direction you could modify your SUT yourself ;)
We are talking about maybe four wires being altered...
Wakefield Turntables
28-05-2012, 17:18
Andy, you seem pretty handy at stripping & rebuilding things like Garrards :)
If you can can do that, how difficult do you think it'd be to fit a couple of XLR sockets to your SUT & alter the wiring - assuming you took pictures & were shown what to do?
Admittedly you'd need a new cable from the tonearm, but I feel sure that given a bit of direction you could modify your SUT yourself ;)
We are talking about maybe four wires being altered...
Yep I have the skills to do a bit of modification, I've stripped down decks, modified PCB's, and done the odd speaker so this shouldnt prove too difficult. I did actually start looking at the better spec'd silvercore SUT with fully balanced output and MuMetal protection. :eyebrows: If I purchased the Silvercore I'd modify with balanced in and output + mumetal protection. It may even be possible to produce custom made silver XLR output :eek: Have you the knowlegde to give direction with this little project??
Reid Malenfant
28-05-2012, 17:19
Have you the knowlegde to give direction with this little project??
Yes :)
Wakefield Turntables
28-05-2012, 17:58
Yes :)
Are you up for it??
Reid Malenfant
28-05-2012, 18:18
You supply some decent clear pictures of the inside of the SUT & the wiring & I'll tell & show you how to rewire it to use balanced inputs using XLR connections :D
I really wouldn't bother with the outputs as the voltage level will be high enough to lower the chances of any interference being troublesome. Besides it'd have a lower noise floor depending on what you are feeding it to.
Though if you insist that you want balanced outputs then I'll do the same as the above. You can always still use them single ended depending on how you wire up the connections in the XLR plug you connect to the output socket :cool:
So if you want to take that as a yes, then do so :D
Wakefield Turntables
28-05-2012, 18:29
You supply some decent clear pictures of the inside of the SUT & the wiring & I'll tell & show you how to rewire it to use balanced inputs using XLR connections :D
I really wouldn't bother with the outputs as the voltage level will be high enough to lower the chances of any interference being troublesome. Besides it'd have a lower noise floor depending on what you are feeding it to.
Though if you insist that you want balanced outputs then I'll do the same as the above. You can always still use them single ended depending on how you wire up the connections in the XLR plug you connect to the output socket :cool:
So if you want to take that as a yes, then do so :D
SCORCHIO! Sounds like a nice project to do over Summer, alongside a 1210 I'm doing up for a mate and a refurb of a pair of celestion 44's!! Please be patient as I dont even have one of these yet!!
Reid Malenfant
28-05-2012, 18:36
I'm not planning on going anywhere :)
If I wasn't patient I'd be pulling my hair out as I have a shed load to do as well :lol:
Nice one, Marco. Keep us informed as I thought your Ortofon SUT matched the SPU rather well.
Marco! - Resist the temptation to become an argyrophiliac. It's not all it's cracked up to be.
Regards
Ha - good one, Barry! :eyebrows:
At the end of the day, I'm a 'philiac' of whatever gives me the best sonic performance, solid-silver or otherwise.
We'll see what happens, matey...
Martin, I'll defo keep you informed. I agree that the ST-80SE matches the SPU rather well, as indeed it should do. The telling thing, however, will be when the Ortofon goes back in later, playing the same music I've been listening to over the last week.
The results of that will determine which way I go! :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
29-05-2012, 09:19
Just ordered one of these to try out :)
From Deco Audio? Nice one :)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
29-05-2012, 12:06
From Deco Audio? Nice one :)
Marco.
Yep! Even mentioned your name so you are now even more famous. Have you had any more thoughts on the silver core sut?
Lol - nice one. Peter's a good bloke, and most helpful. I don't think you'll be disappointed!
I've got no new thoughts since yesterday. I'm still in 'assessment mode', playing loads of different music, which will continue until the end of the week, when the Ortofon goes back in...
Sunday is likely to be judgement day! ;)
Marco.
pure sound
29-05-2012, 16:29
Did you ever try the HM7 at home Marco?
Wakefield Turntables
29-05-2012, 18:19
Did you ever try the HM7 at home Marco?
This was the one I was going to try but they couldn't do a pure silver winding. So, hopefully the silvercore will do the job. They silvercore has silver plated RCA out which pi$$ed me off a bit, but what do you expect for <£950:scratch: I'm going to have a play with it and then see what we can do to improve it :D
Hi Guy,
Unfortunately I never got around to that. However, I've heard my SPU with Martin's SUT-H7, a couple of times, and was very impressed, in fact enough to know that it's probably one of the best SUTs on the market, and not only suits Martin's Shelter 5000 very well, but also my SPU.
However, the problem was that I couldn't get a listen to one of my own at home, such as I was able to with the Ortofon (and now the Silvercore), before committing to buying, so that's why I gave it a miss. Of course, I also gave the vintage JS units a go, paying top dollar for them, before moving them on later, fortunately without making a loss!
The ST-80SE and Silvercore, however, are right up there with the best I've heard, and I would definitely give them a listen, if you're looking for a top-notch SUT to use with your SPU :)
Marco.
pure sound
29-05-2012, 21:53
I do have a pair of the Japanese AudioNote ANS-6 transformers which have taps that would suit the SPU. I'd just need to wire those taps to another pair of sockets into the case I use them in. Those transformers are all silver wired and have some very nice core material within.
Yup, I can imagine they'd be fab. Do you use your SPU much these days?
Marco.
pure sound
30-05-2012, 20:47
I was borrowing that one & I've passed it to Stuart (Chelsea). He was using it on a 124 with 12" Ortofon arm. Overall I think he likes it although also finds it a bit too rose tinted on some music.
Funnily enough I just borrowed a proper old Mono one today, a very different looking device like a metal cube but mounted in the usual G type 'shell. A good session with some of my mono records beckons.
EDIT. Sounding very nice
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/SPUMono2.jpg
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/SPUMono.jpg
Hi Guy,
I was borrowing that one & I've passed it to Stuart (Chelsea). He was using it on a 124 with 12" Ortofon arm. Overall I think he likes it although also finds it a bit too rose tinted on some music.
The "rose tinted" thing always intrigues and mystifies me, in equal measure, as quite simply, I've never heard that effect from a modern SPU in my system, or many others, which I've tested my turntable in, using all sorts of different equipment. I'm sure that Martin T, Dominic Harper and Anthony TD, all of whom have heard my T/T recently, with my SPU Classic GM E, in their (very different) systems, would back me up.
If you remember the needledrops I did, last year, which you listened to, where unfortunately I'd overloaded the EMU sound-card I was using, with too much gain from my SUT. Whilst the results were not ideal because of that, there was no hint of any 'rose-tinted-ness' in any of the tracks which I uploaded; in fact, I remember you saying that they sounded a bit harsh, which they did, and that would've been because of the overloading.
However, if the SPU was inherently "rose tinted", then that signature would've still shone through, regardless. Furthermore, that was when I had the Jelco 750, and the conical-tipped version of the SPU. The elliptical-tipped version and Ortofon arm I'm using now, have moved things on quite considerably. Think also of last year's Scalford show (the one where our room had the big Celestions in), and where my T/T (with SPU) was demonstrated. No-one that I know of commented that it sounded "rose tinted", or indeed at this year's show, where it was used in John's system - quite the opposite, in fact!
I guess that if your idea of 'correct' is the lean, treble-enhanced sound of an OC-9 or Lyra, and many other modern cartridges today, then sure, an SPU would sound "rose tinted" in comparison, simply because it doesn't have those traits, but not in my experience when it's used in the right system (an optimally matched SUT and phono stage is crucial here), where modern SPUs with elliptical tips (or better) simply play what's on the record, adding very little character of their own. Indeed, they measure all but flat.
That's certainly been my extensive experience of using them, anyway. If a brand new modern SPU (vintage ones are different) sounds 'rose tinted', then it's likely that the partnering system and turntable just doesn't suit it. Basically, it would simply be down to a lack of synergy :)
Funnily enough I just borrowed a proper old Mono one today, a very different looking device like a metal cube but mounted in the usual G type 'shell. A good session with some of my mono records beckons.
Nice one. Looking good on the FR-64S! Although it looks different from the outside, I'm sure that internally it'll be near-identical to any other SPU (allowing of course for the fact that it's mono). Anyway, enjoy - I must get a mono cartridge myself one day, as I have enough mono records to justify one, but a Denon DL-102 may suffice for that! :cool:
Marco.
Have to agree, there's nothing 'rose-tinted' about Marco's SPU. It makes a big sound in every sense of the word but it has dynamics, extension, tonal neutrality and a midrange to die for.
Wakefield Turntables
31-05-2012, 09:33
I used to have the oc9 fitted to my main 1210 system and I have to agree that the treble is way too lean the ortofon cadenza black has shown me what treble should sound like. I can't wait to see what the silver core sut does for detail retrieval
pure sound
31-05-2012, 10:09
I guess that if your idea of 'correct' is the lean, treble-enhanced sound of an OC-9 or Lyra, and many other modern cartridges today,
LOL! As you well know I can't abide the presentation of cartridges like the OC9 or the various Lyra's. There are many others that fall into that camp aswell.
Wakefield Turntables
31-05-2012, 10:20
Well it looks like I shan't be trying any Lyra stuff if it has similar presentation to the oc9 ;) but I do appreciate that you need to hear them in action
From the AT stable, the AT33 series has a much nicer, fuller balance than the OC9 series.
anthonyTD
31-05-2012, 10:36
Have to agree, there's nothing 'rose-tinted' about Marco's SPU. It makes a big sound in every sense of the word but it has dynamics, extension, tonal neutrality and a midrange to die for.
Hi All,
I too have to confirm my findings along with Martin's, when Marco brought his TT for the power supply upgrades i had chance to have a realy good listen to its capabilities in my own system for the first time, All i can say is Wow, i remember listening to a Stevie Ray Vaughan Track and was taken aback by the imediacy and speed/attack of his playing, [made me wince a few times] on the other hand the vocals were natural but full bodied enough to give you the elusion that he could have actualy been there in the room! all in all the performance of that turntable with the choice of its components was nothing short of stunning and produced probably the best [over-all] sound i have heard from anything else i have had in my system' period. it realy made me wonder wether we have progressed at all in the last 20/30 years as far as musical replay is concerned.:scratch:
Anthony,TD...
Cheers, guys. I thought for a moment that I may have been going deaf! :eyebrows:
LOL! As you well know I can't abide the presentation of cartridges like the OC9 or the various Lyra's. There are many others that fall into that camp aswell.
Lol - I know the kind of sound you like, mate, having heard systems you've set up often enough, and having listened to some of the superb kit you produce.
My comment was one of a general nature, aimed at anyone who may have thought that the SPU was 'rose-tinted', simply because it doesn't sound as bright as an OC-9, Lyra, or many modern cartridges with a 'hyped-up' tonal balance.
Like the guys have said, it really doesn't sound anything like 'rose-tinted' in the right system :)
Marco.
Now after have played with the Silvercore On-To-Ten SUT with several cartridges, have to say that this works extremely well with the Denon DL-103 variants. The difference to my Impress Lab Model 999 SUT is not huge with other carts, in fact it is more like question of taste which one you prefer but with Denons it is quite clear that there is a lot of synergy there. So at least for those looking for SUT in this price category for Denon DL-103 or its variants Silvercore One-To-Ten can be recommended.
Now only I'm thinking what would the next models up there deliver or do I have to go all the way to the A23.. :)
Well, the Silvercore has now been returned to the dealer, and I've settled on keeping the Ortofon ST-80SE. My thanks go to Peter, from Deco Audio, for his kind extended loan of the unit. Top bloke, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend his products and services.
In summary, to my ears, in my system, the ST-80SE just pipped the Silvercore in terms of overall musicality. In the final analysis (perhaps understandably), it was a better match for my Ortofon SPU, making the Silvercore, excellent though it was in its own right, appear a little too 'hi-fi', in terms of its music making abilities.
The fact that it uses solid-silver wiring and transformers, which on paper suggest superiority over the (very high purity) solid-copper transformers, used in the ST-80SE, does not necessarily translate into such when the acid test of listening is taken into the equation. As such, one should never see the use of solid-silver inside audio components as being some sort of 'magic bullet'. This is simply not the case, and so one should always look at the bigger picture.
The combination of the ST-80SE and the SPU underpins music with a beguiling tonal richness (devoid of any semblance of 'bloating' or artificial enhancement) and succeeds in 'connecting' one emotionally with the musical performance (providing of course that such emotion exists on the recording itself) in a way which slightly eludes the Silvercore.
I put this mainly down to both items (the SPU and ST-80SE) having been voiced to perform optimally together by Ortofon; in effect they are a partnership, designed from the ground up, rather than in the case of the Silvercore, one man's (very good) attempt at sourcing transformers which, to his ears, synergise sonically with the SPU. Don't get me wrong, they do (very well), but just not to the same extent as does the ST-80SE, certainly in my system.
I would certainly recommend both the Silvercore and ST-80SE to anyone who owns an SPU and wants to hear exactly what this very fine cartridge is capable of, both sonically and musically, and would expect both SUTs to divide opinion, depending on the sonic signature of the partnering system and the individual priorities of the users in question. Make no mistake these are both top-quality devices.
However, it is the ST-80SE which, after much comparing and testing, remains as my reference SUT, until such times as I hear anything which I consider to be better. I suspect, though, that I could have a long wait... Undoubtedly the combination of my SPU Classic GM(E)/ST-80SE and Ortofon RS-212D tonearm is a formidable one, and a partnership which I envisage providing me with many hours of listening pleasure, for many years to come.
Here are some pics of all the items in question, in order to conclude the thread:
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3784/2014489200071997495s600.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/2014489200071997495s600.jpg/)
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2835/2957987590071997495s600.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/2957987590071997495s600.jpg/)
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/4612/techy.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/techy.jpg/)
Sheer musical bliss!! :cool:
Marco.
I'm not at all surprised, Marco, and I think that's a wise choice. The SPU and ST-80SE certainly sounded very impressive in my system (bottom photo). My Choir Audio SUT-H7 also features copper wound Hashimoto transformers, so silver doesn't always win out.
Wakefield Turntables
13-07-2012, 14:19
HHHmmmm, interesting food for thought. Considering I've been waiting 8 weeks for the silvercore SUT to appear I dont think I could give Art Deco the business. I think I will try out the Ortofon SUT as its supposed to be the ideal match for my Cadenza black :eyebrows: But, all of this is irrelevant as I dont have my deck back yet. :(
Hi Andy,
The waiting time is nothing to do with Deco, who are simply at the mercy of the German chap who designs the Silvercore by hand.
If I were you, I'd continue to be patient, as I suspect that you'd love the sound of the unit :)
Marco.
I'm not at all surprised, Marco, and I think that's a wise choice. The SPU and ST-80SE certainly sounded very impressive in my system (bottom photo). My Choir Audio SUT-H7 also features copper wound Hashimoto transformers, so silver doesn't always win out.
Indeed, Martin. However, I was impressed enough with what I heard from the entry-level Silvercore MC, to consider the purchase of the MC PRO, at a later date, and explore the all-balanced connection thing:
http://www.silvercore.de/index.php?silvercore-mc-pro-1
Gorgeous, eh? :stalks: :stalks: And, based on my experience of the MC, it should sound stunning!
Marco.
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