Re Dacs for the Squeezebox Touch

[icehockeyboy]

It won't offer any improvement at all using an external dac.
Honestly - we sell dacs, and we don't recommend you buy one for the Touch and many other transparent digital sources of which there are many, unless you want the extras.

The Touch, as ******* says, has a transparent dac and analogue output stage, meaning you cannot improve it sonically no matter what you attach.
It is technically excellent in all areas straight from the box. The very best performing dacs on the market are technically better (slightly) but the differences sit below audibility.

One advantage of the Touch is the ability to play up to 24/96, and whatever the arguments over the benefits that's a useful thing to have IMO 'just in case'.

I just read the above on a forum and thought it would be of interest to Touch users.

Transcribed word for word, with a contributors name starred out.

[Ali Tait]

Bollocks. IMHO of course. :eyebrows:

[Giubanix]

The Touch certainly sounds pretty good on it's own and most budget end dacs probably won't make much difference, if any. But realistically, no matter how good it is for the price, it's surely unreasonable to suggest that the Touch's dac could match most £500 or upwards stand alone dacs.

[NRG]

Bollocks. IMHO of course. :eyebrows:

Seconded Ali....

[seoirse2002]

I was waiting for the bushmaster for my touch.....should I bother?

[DSJR]

Course you should :)

DAC chipsets these days are very cheap indeed when bought in quantity, can have most of the gubbins contained inside them and I think it fair to say that it's perfectly OK to get a fine performance out of a cheapo DAC with variable buffer output.

This one has A-D as well as D-A and apparently sounds very good -

http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/tascam-us100-

I haven't heard this myself, but I can assure you that in this company, as well as the Bushmaster, Arcam rpack series and the ubiquitous MF products, any DAC costing substantially more than, say £500 must be doing something almost magical in a more fancy box, or possibly ripping the punter off with loads of profit.........

[Chops]

The Touch certainly sounds pretty good on it's own and most budget end dacs probably won't make much difference, if any. But realistically, no matter how good it is for the price, it's surely unreasonable to suggest that the Touch's dac could match most £500 or upwards stand alone dacs.

Some while ago I compared the analogue out of the SBT to the £3k Chord QBD76 (i wouls say the rest of my system is not embarrassed by the Chord DAC). The Chord was better but not by that much to my humble ears so I didn't buy it. Anyways, some while later I did buy one after having upgraded my ICs. Better but ... Since then I've applied all the s/w mods to the SBT, upgraded to MCRU PSU, put RCA & XLR caps on all the inputs and upgraded the ICs again (thanks to MG's upgrade scheme:thumbsup:) ... Big improvement, night and day stuff. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: This really gets sooo much more out of the Chord. The SBT analogue outs simply cannot approach the SQ provided by the SBT+Chord.

Chris

[icehockeyboy]

The Touch certainly sounds pretty good on it's own and most budget end dacs probably won't make much difference, if any. But realistically, no matter how good it is for the price, it's surely unreasonable to suggest that the Touch's dac could match most £500 or upwards stand alone dacs.

Yes, you would think that.

I did.

Until I sold my V expensive £1700 inc bits Theta dac, and could not detect any difference using analogue straight out of the Touch into the Lyngdorf.

[zygote23]

Of course the more expensive DAC's will sound better silly.

Just like the rather expensive Lexicon sounds better than the oppo.


Buyer beware at all times.......hi fi is full of bull shit artists.....and worse they change their minds like I change my keks!

[pete_mac]

Seconded Ali....

Thirded! I've had many different DACs in my system and the vast majority sounded subjectively better than (or different to) the onboard Touch DAC.

Having said that, if I had to simplify my system I could live with the Touch DAC quite easily. It ain't too bad at all!

[seoirse2002]

hmmm...
So I wasn't imagining things when I couldent hear any difference when listening to a friends expensive dac...I thought all my years of clubs and headphones had affected my hearing....

[Giubanix]

I think that often, dacs just sound different rather than better or worse. Sometimes you'll think the difference sounds better, sometimes not. :scratch:

[Ali Tait]

I think given that you have some decent dacs,the differences between them are quite small, though the output stage topology seems to me to make the biggest difference, with valves in particular generally giving to me a larger soundstage, better imaging and a smoother sound.

[Chops]

I think given that you have some decent dacs,the differences between them are quite small, though the output stage topology seems to me to make the biggest difference, with valves in particular generally giving to me a larger soundstage, better imaging and a smoother sound.

But you've got to make sure that your setup can get the best out of a better DAC and that includes ensuring that the SBT can give a high quality digital output that is fed all the way into the DAC. If it doesn't then you won't hear much of a difference, just maybe a difference in presentation.

Chris

[pete_mac]

But you've got to make sure that your setup can get the best out of a better DAC and that includes ensuring that the SBT can give a high quality digital output that is fed all the way into the DAC. If it doesn't then you won't hear much of a difference, just maybe a difference in presentation.

Chris

Absolutely.

The SBT coaxial digital output isn't too bad, but fit a decent SPDIF reclocker between the SBT and external DAC and it's game on! It elevates the SBT to a top-notch transport.

I recently removed (and sold) an audio-gd Digital Interface which was acting as a reclocker and the difference in the sound of my DAC when running directly from the SBT is surprising! It sounds a bit flat and lifeless. Still listenable, of course, but nowhere near as polished. I'm awaiting the arrival of an Empirical Audio Synchro Mesh with much anticipation, as by all accounts this will up the ante even further.

[pete_mac]

I think that often, dacs just sound different rather than better or worse. Sometimes you'll think the difference sounds better, sometimes not. :scratch:

Indeed... that's a fair assessment!

I've had a few budget DACs in my system for review comparison purposes, and each of them sounded noticeably different to the SBT onboard DAC. Three that spring to mind are the audio-gd NFB-3, the Pro-Ject DAC BOX FL (NOS DAC) and the Beresford Caiman Gatorized. Each offers a distinct difference over the SBT DAC IMHO.

[Giubanix]

I recently removed (and sold) an audio-gd Digital Interface which was acting as a reclocker and the difference in the sound of my DAC when running directly from the SBT is surprising! It sounds a bit flat and lifeless. Still listenable, of course, but nowhere near as polished.

Interesting. I assume you're talking about this one?

http://www.ampcity.co.uk/audio-gd-digital-interface.html

[Ali Tait]

But you've got to make sure that your setup can get the best out of a better DAC and that includes ensuring that the SBT can give a high quality digital output that is fed all the way into the DAC. If it doesn't then you won't hear much of a difference, just maybe a difference in presentation.

Chris

You mean use a decent digi cable? :lol: I'm using a Supra Trico at the moment. Best I've heard so far.

[pete_mac]

Interesting. I assume you're talking about this one?

http://www.ampcity.co.uk/audio-gd-digital-interface.html

Yep, that's him!

My unit was the first version of the DI (there is a new version released earlier this month) and I fitted an upgraded Tentlabs XO which improved the upsampling performance markedly.

The optional Class A power supply (or similar power supply, or even a battery) is required if the unit is being used as a reclocker rather than using USB power.

[Chops]

You mean use a decent digi cable? :lol: I'm using a Supra Trico at the moment. Best I've heard so far.

:lol: I was thinking of more than just the cable (I use a Chord Indigo Plus, which was better for me than a few others). Upgraded PSU (MCRU), Triode's Enhanced Digital Output (EDO) s/w mod and the RCA & XLR caps all made nice improvements and I guess that must be to the digital output from the SBT. Also, as Pete mentioned, I was thinking of reclockers fitting in between the two devices, but not tried one yet.

Chris

[Chops]

Yep, that's him!

My unit was the first version of the DI (there is a new version released earlier this month) and I fitted an upgraded Tentlabs XO which improved the upsampling performance markedly.

The optional Class A power supply (or similar power supply, or even a battery) is required if the unit is being used as a reclocker rather than using USB power.

Pete, does the input cable to this have to be high quality (that's assuming you believe in digital cables being different)? Just that you can easily spend more than the unit's cost on another cable.:rolleyes:

Chris

[pete_mac]

I'm using two reasonably-priced Grave Science SPDIF cables in my system (around $AUD95 each) and they do the job just fine. The Grave Science are comparable with the Black Cat Veloce SPDIF cables in terms of performance, so the bang for buck is quite high.

I do have some ebay-special, $10 jobbies lying around which I might fit between the SBT and Synchro Mesh (once it arrives) to see if there is any percievable difference between different cables when used pre-reclocker.

Sadly I never thought of trying this whilst I still owned the audio-gd unit.

[morris_minor]

FWIW I have an audio-gd DI and use Mark Grant G1000 digital interconnects in and out of the unit. I had a much more expensive Ecosse digital cable and TBH couldn't tell the difference between this and the MG.

I use the DI as reclocker between Touch and DAC (Metrum Octave) and as a USB>S/PDIF converter from the Mac.

The DI needed a couple of weeks running before it sounded good - from new treble was pretty "splashy" and not at all nice. I bought mine from AmpCity BTW.