Another DAC coming.

[walpurgis]

Hi all, just got tempted on eBay again. I've got a Monarchy Audio M22b DAC on the way. There seems to be a bit of mystique surrounding these. Anybody had any experience of this item? I have a couple of Monarchy Audio Class A power amps which are as sweet as can be and certainly live up to their reputation. Hope this is as good. Thanks, Geoff.

[StanleyB]

I've got a Monarchy Audio M22b DAC on the way. There seems to be a bit of mystique surrounding these.
Come on, spill the beans :). What's the mystique angle to the story?

[Reid Malenfant]

I still own one :) You have the much rarer version with balanced outputs & an AES/EBU input on the way to you :D

Very nice bit of kit to I might add, I'm sure you won't be disappointed. Just make sure you leave it switched on permanently unless you are off on holiday or suchlike. The class A output circuitry works best when it has reached a nice equilibrium temeperature.

[Reid Malenfant]

I just remembered, you might be a bit shocked at the weight of it :eyebrows:

It's as heavy as some integrated amplifiers & not small ones either :eek:

They certainly know how to build stuff.

[walpurgis]

Hi Stanley, we've chatted before when I bought one of your own DACs many moons ago. The 'mystique' with the Monarchy unit certainly seems to exist. There is comment on the net and I've been personally told it is a bit 'special' by a user, not had a chance to hear his though. It probably doesn't add up to much. I'll have to wait and see. Some items deserve a bit of hype but most don't. Geoff.

[walpurgis]

Well Mark, the Monarchy is set to be working alongside my Theta DS Pro Progeny and that is a heavy old lump too (sounds nice though). Hope the M22B can hack it! Geoff.

[Reid Malenfant]

I can't be sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you'll be using the 22B more than the Theta ;)

[Yomanze]

Well Mark, the Monarchy is set to be working alongside my Theta DS Pro Progeny and that is a heavy old lump too (sounds nice though). Hope the M22B can hack it! Geoff.

As a Theta Progeny user too I'd be very interested to hear your views. Happy listening. :)

[walpurgis]

The Monarchy Audio M22B arrived today and its in fantastic nick, looks brand new! Its been up and running for nearly an hour now and initial impressions are very favourable. Still warming up obviously, playing Shpongle's 'Tales of The Inexpressible' via the Meridian 507 and in typical Monarchy fashion the sound continues to improve as things get warmer. Lovely imaging through the Tannoys, but the DS Pro Progeny does that too. I think the Theta possibly projects more, but that perception may be because it has a (very slightly) more forward balance. Absolutely no sign of digititis (harshness/stringyness). Bottom end nice and solid, top end clean and the mid transparent. I must connect my Monarchy DIP into the equation and see how that affects things. So far it looks like money well spent, but obviously, it will take a few listens and comparisons to come to conclusions. Looks like my little Theta Chroma that I was using as a second DAC will be appearing on eBay very shortly. Geoff.

[Reid Malenfant]

Oh god yes, get the DIP in there :)

I had a feeling you'd like it, but give it time to stabilise temperature wise. The power switch isn't mounted on the back panel for no reason :idea:

If you could use the balanced outputs & AES/EBU input (you can if you put the DIP in line) then I suggest you do so :D

[walpurgis]

Yes the DIP tends to enhance things, differences vary with whatever set-up I'm using at the time though. I also keep a Theta TLC and an X-10D handy as they can often add to the recipe. Geoff.

[Reid Malenfant]

I know these things are meant to have more of an effect at midrange & higher frequencies, something to do with the way a phase locked loop works...

But I found a significant increase in clarity of & depth of bass when I hooked my DIP 24/96 into the equation. Funnily enough I was also using a bit of Theta kit - Data Basic transport :)

I ran a balanced AES/EBU cable out to the DIP, now this doesn't have an AES/EBU input, so I wound a small balanced to unbalanced transformer on a ferrite bead & fitted this inside a decent large sized phono plug & used the S/PDIF input.

Balanced output to the 22B & admittedly balanced outputs from the DAC to pre amp.

I'm keeping my 22B & now i have a DIP 48/96 I can use the 24/96 with the 22B again in another system :D

[walpurgis]

How does the 48/96 DIP compare to the 24/96? I have the latter. Geoff.

[Reid Malenfant]

The 48/96 re-times as well as upsamples. Depending on an internal jumper it upsamples to either 24 bit 48KHz or 24 bit 96KHz.

The 24/96 got well & truly beaten & it was a very good upgrade :cool:

[walpurgis]

The 48/96 re-times as well as upsamples. Depending on an internal jumper it upsamples to either 24 bit 48KHz or 24 bit 96KHz.

The 24/96 got well & truly beaten & it was a very good upgrade :cool:

Finally got one Mark. Just won the bidding on eBay @ £114!

Hope I find it as good as you do.

Geoff.

[Yomanze]

Finally got one Mark. Just won the bidding on eBay @ £114!

Hope I find it as good as you do.

Geoff.

How did you find the Theta / Monarchy DAC comparison?

[Reid Malenfant]

They don't come up that often & they tend to hold the price very well, that's not too bad at all considering :)

Yes, I hope you find it as enlightening as I do myself :D

I still have the DIP24/96, it'll be used in a second system, I'll never part with either of them :nono:


There is even scope to mod them as the regulators could be replaced with much better versions which are available as after market components. I think it'd be worth it, so intend to (at least to the DP48/96 at some stage).


All the best, let us know how you get on :)

[walpurgis]

I'll let you know how it pans out Mark.

If you carry out any successful mods let me know.

Geoff.

[Reid Malenfant]

How did you find the Theta / Monarchy DAC comparison?
:lol: This confused me... Simply because I used to use a Theta Data Basic driving a Monarchy Audio 22B DAC, then the DIP came along & things got better than ever :)

Kind of took me back a tad...



Will do on the mods, it's only a question of time.

[walpurgis]

How did you find the Theta / Monarchy DAC comparison?

Hi Neil,

The Theta DS Pro Progeny and the Morarchy Audio M22B do sound different.

The Monarchy is full bodied and controlled, but has excellent transparency and detail

The Theta has a very slightly lighter balance, though not lacking bass weight in any way. It too is very transparent and detailed and just possibly sweeter through the treble.

Spoilt for choice now. They are both excellent and I'm keeping the pair!

(I tend to have at least two or more of everything Hi-Fi)


Geoff.

[walpurgis]

I'm going to have a 'shoot out' between the 48/96 DIP, the 24/96 DIP and my Theta TLC jitter buster. I shall be taking no prisoners!

[Reid Malenfant]

The 48/96 made the biggest difference as it outputs a 24 bit word at either 48KHz or 96KHz, depending on how a jumper is set internally.

As I feed the output of the DIP to a dCS Purcell I wasn't exactly expecting much of a difference, if any. I was quite surprised when I noticed more than a subtle difference on 48KHz output, in comparison to the DIP 24/96 which doesn't upsample.

I thought I'd experiment & try the DIP on 96KHz output, expecting no difference at all as my Purcell squirts the output via Firewire in DSD mode to the Delius DAC. Must admit I was gobsmacked when going to 96KHz reaped benefits above the 48KHz setting :scratch:

I have no idea why it makes a difference, all I know is I'm leaving the DIP set to 96KHz output ;)

[walpurgis]

Definitely checking that out!

[icehockeyboy]

I can't be sure, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you'll be using the 22B more than the Theta ;)

And from my own personal experience, if you had a Bushmaster, you would be using that more than the Pro Progeny.

I've had both so feel qualified to say that! :)

[walpurgis]

And from my own personal experience, if you had a Bushmaster, you would be using that more than the Pro Progeny.

I've had both so feel qualified to say that! :)

Stanley is a nice chap to deal with and I bought one of his DACs a few years ago and whilst it sounded lucid enough, I couldn't come to terms with the lack of weight/body. I'm sure his products have moved on since, but maybe the family sound remains similar.

[icehockeyboy]

Stanley is a nice chap to deal with and I bought one of his DACs a few years ago and whilst it sounded lucid enough, I couldn't come to terms with the lack of weight/body. I'm sure his products have moved on since, but maybe the family sound remains similar.

I also had one of his original 7510's, and believe the BM to be far far superior to it. :)

[StanleyB]

Stanley is a nice chap to deal with and I bought one of his DACs a few years ago and whilst it sounded lucid enough, I couldn't come to terms with the lack of weight/body. I'm sure his products have moved on since, but maybe the family sound remains similar.
Family sound :scratch:? First of all the DAC chips are not the same and the sound is not tuned by me to be anything specific.
The latest DAC, the Bushmaster, gets its sound signature from the DAC chip itself. i.e. there are no opamps or capacitors in the signal path, unlike most other DACs, which in turn eliminates any signature sound that are associated with opamps and capacitors.

With regards to weight and body: those are things that can be influenced by opamps and caps. See the DIY threads in "The Drawing Board" that deals with trying out different opamps and caps. They are not necessary a true reflection of the actual audio signal. That's why I decided to experiment with a passive signal output on the TC-7520 and Caiman DAC. The results achieved by many who also tried out those mods were promising enough for me to build a complete DAC with a purely passive output.

Of course the sound signature produced by a passive output DAC is not to everyone's taste. There are those who like a warmer/softer/heavier bass/lighter bass/less tops/more tops, etc. That's missing the point of a passive output, which is designed to dish up a warts and all audio output signal. Contrary to a comment made by someone that you get what you pay for and that an expensive DAC will sound better, that's far from true. I could have stuffed caps and opamps at the output of the DAC chip and tweak the sound to produce an overblown and heart warming signal. But if you want a neutral audio output devoid of any tampering at the RCA/PHONO output of the DAC then the Bushmaster is one of the ways to go. On the other hand if you don't like a neutral output then you have to pick a DAC with caps and opamps which brings with it the extra cost of those components and the associated increase in case/PCB/power supply size and cost.

[icehockeyboy]

Family sound :scratch:? First of all the DAC chips are not the same and the sound is not tuned by me to be anything specific.
The latest DAC, the Bushmaster, gets its sound signature from the DAC chip itself. i.e. there are no opamps or capacitors in the signal path, unlike most other DACs, which in turn eliminates any signature sound that are associated with opamps and capacitors.

With regards to weight and body: those are things that can be influenced by opamps and caps. See the DIY threads in "The Drawing Board" that deals with trying out different opamps and caps. They are not necessary a true reflection of the actual audio signal. That's why I decided to experiment with a passive signal output on the TC-7520 and Caiman DAC. The results achieved by many who also tried out those mods were promising enough for me to build a complete DAC with a purely passive output

Of course the sound signature produced by a passive output DAC is not to everyone's taste. There are those who like a warmer/softer/heavier bass/lighter bass/less tops/more tops, etc. That's missing the point of a passive output, which is designed to dish up a warts and all audio output signal. Contrary to a comment made by someone that you get what you pay for and that an expensive DAC will sound better, that's far from true. I could have stuffed caps and opamps at the output of the DAC chip and tweak the sound to produce an overblown and heart warming signal. But if you want a neutral audio output devoid of any tampering at the RCA/PHONO output of the DAC then the Bushmaster is one of the ways to go. On the other hand if you don't like a neutral output then you have to pick a DAC with caps and opamps which brings with it the extra cost of those components and the associated increase in case/PCB/power supply size and cost.

I can't comment on the technical side of Stans reply, but I can agree with his comment about an expensive dac sounding better.

Having owned a Theta Pro Progeny A for a number of years, I believe the inexpensive by comparison BM ( £200 compared to around £1700) is a better sounding piece of kit, and looking at Jerrys (Jandl) thoughts on it, he is in total agreement, and he has owned far more dacs than most of us! :lol:

[StanleyB]

Add to that the support, which is 2nd to none when compared to any other DAC retailer anywhere in the world. And of course the speedy dispatch and forum membership discounts ;).

[sq225917]

I guess 'mystique' in this instance means the same as 'rare' does on eBay, they just weren't very popular- so not a lot of people know anything about them. Does that qualify as mystique?

[walpurgis]

I guess 'mystique' in this instance means the same as 'rare' does on eBay, they just weren't very popular- so not a lot of people know anything about them. Does that qualify as mystique?

To which item are you refering?

[Olli I]

Anyone heard Hegel HD11? I heard it in my friends place and tried it at home. I have had Naim Ndac and will sell it because I do not want to spend on a power supply. I recently bought Naim Nac552 and and Ndac is not good enough without extra power supply. I really like Hegel. Would someone like to share opinion about HD11?

[SonicHammer]

Anyone heard Hegel HD11? I heard it in my friends place and tried it at home. I have had Naim Ndac and will sell it because I do not want to spend on a power supply. I recently bought Naim Nac552 and and Ndac is not good enough without extra power supply. I really like Hegel. Would someone like to share opinion about HD11?

If it could help I can write a couple of my impressions about Hegel HD10.

[Olli I]

Yes please.


If it could help I can write a couple of my impressions about Hegel HD10.

[SonicHammer]

Yes please.

Ok.
I've had a chance to listen to Hegel HD10 DAC in several systems including my own.
One of them was mid priced including Hegel H70/Exposure 3010s2 amp(s), Neat Motie 1/Spendor A6 speakers and Creek EVO2 CD player as a transport.
The second was a bit higher priced: Hegel H100 amp, Verity Audio Fidelio, Arcam CD37 as a transport.
The third, Exposure XX amp, Cambridge Audio CA850 C as a transport/player, HiFace Evo USB/SPDF converter, PMC - some Sig standmounts, can't remember the specific model..:scratch:
Finally, Krell KAV 300i amp, Krell KAV 300CD, VA Beethowen Baby Grand Speakers.

The final impressions:
Very transparent a bit soft (someone would say "analog") and rich sound, full of details. Wide and deep soundstage.
Easy to use.
Excellent built.
Sounds best via XLR. Coax 1 is best sounding digital in.
Can show the difference between 75 Ohm digital cables.
Vinyl users could be delighted about the HD10 sound.
The reviewer of HiFiles (Serbian HiFi Magazine) gave the HD10 "Hi-Five" rating (five star).

If you need any furher explanation or coment about the DAC and it's sound in any of the systems I mentioned just ask. I'll be glad to answer.
I also compared directly HD10 to M2Tech Young DAC, Exposure 2010s2 DAC....
In what system do you plan to use HD11? Amp, speakers, source?

[Olli I]

I use a Naim system (Nac552 preamp and Nap300 power amp) + Neat Momentum 3i speakers. I like my vinyl source but the ndac has been the problem. I tried an extra power supply with it and it is not quite for my taste anyway. It was great with my previous preamp but I bought Nac552 second hand ever hearing it in my own system and the sound is not for my liking anymore with the ndac. I had heard it on my friends system though so not completely blind purchase.

But then I borrowed Hegel HD11 from my friend and the sound was so close to an analog sound that if i didn't know and someone had said that there is a turntable spinning....well I would have believed it. And still all the details are there. Not so hammer like bass as Ndacs but very tight and tuneful. I use A.R.T. Legato usb to spdif converter. That I forgot to mention

[SonicHammer]

I am very surprised nDAC did not match your system... this is the matter of taste perhaps.
As I can see your impressions about the Hegel DACs are pretty the same as mine own.

If you use the SPDF/USB converter I think you should try Hegel's own HD2. Someone say that is the stunning combo.

btw, I like Momentums a lot! Excellent choice IMHO! :)

[Yomanze]

I use a Naim system (Nac552 preamp and Nap300 power amp) + Neat Momentum 3i speakers. I like my vinyl source but the ndac has been the problem. I tried an extra power supply with it and it is not quite for my taste anyway. It was great with my previous preamp but I bought Nac552 second hand ever hearing it in my own system and the sound is not for my liking anymore with the ndac. I had heard it on my friends system though so not completely blind purchase.

But then I borrowed Hegel HD11 from my friend and the sound was so close to an analog sound that if i didn't know and someone had said that there is a turntable spinning....well I would have believed it. And still all the details are there. Not so hammer like bass as Ndacs but very tight and tuneful. I use A.R.T. Legato usb to spdif converter. That I forgot to mention

...interesting I think the Legato would be the best USB to SPDIF converter out there. Have you compared it to anything else? What's it like? I recently picked up a Musical Fidelity V-Link 192, which does the job...

[Olli I]

...interesting I think the Legato would be the best USB to SPDIF converter out there. Have you compared it to anything else? What's it like? I recently picked up a Musical Fidelity V-Link 192, which does the job...

The digital harshness went away with Legato. I have really liked it and I proposed to manufacturer that he would make me an usb-cable that had the power legs cut of. Nowadays Legatos come with an usb-cable where power legs are cut of without asking. I have compared it to Jkenys Hiface mk3 and Hiface Evo. I like Legato better. I haven't been searching anymore for usb to spdif converter so there can be better alternatives nowadays.

[Olli I]

I am very surprised nDAC did not match your system... this is the matter of taste perhaps.
As I can see your impressions about the Hegel DACs are pretty the same as mine own.

If you use the SPDF/USB converter I think you should try Hegel's own HD2. Someone say that is the stunning combo.

btw, I like Momentums a lot! Excellent choice IMHO! :)

Have you ever heard Ultimatum XLS? I would be tempted to try if I ever find it second hand. Is it so that Hegel HD2 do not come with coaxial cable so one should buy it anyway?

[walpurgis]

They don't come up that often & they tend to hold the price very well, that's not too bad at all considering :)

Yes, I hope you find it as enlightening as I do myself :D

All the best, let us know how you get on :)


Very peeved over this DIP.

It arrived with bits rattling about inside and through the side vents I can see capacitors floppng about with unconnected ends touching casework and this is where according the the manufacturers interior photo there are no capacitors.

The eBay seller says it works fine and now informs me it was "upgraded". Ha, butchered by an idiot more like!

Not even going to look inside it and I certainly won't plug it in, it'll probably go bang! Its being sent back today and I'll expect a full refund (I've kept photos).

[SonicHammer]

Have you ever heard Ultimatum XLS? I would be tempted to try if I ever find it second hand. Is it so that Hegel HD2 do not come with coaxial cable so one should buy it anyway?


Have not. I have heard Neat Ultimatum MF7.
As I know, Hegel HD2 does not come with coaxial cable. I think the situation is the same for the all other DACs including Hegel's.

[Olli I]

I bought a Hegel HD2 second hand to try if that is somehow better with Hegel HD11 than A.R.T. Legato. I found a Belden digital cable from reliable Ebay seller and I have had good experiences with that cable before. I wonder if I should try some fancy usb-cable to go with it also. I think I will keep Ndac for myself because no one have had any interest for it and I will not want to lower the price anymore because it is already a bargain for a dac in like new conditon. I think I will continue using it with Legato. So two dac setups now on. :)

Do you have any recommendation of usb-cable? Is chord Silver Plus usb any good? No ridiculous price tag on it.

[SonicHammer]

I bought a Hegel HD2 second hand to try if that is somehow better with Hegel HD11 than A.R.T. Legato. I found a Belden digital cable from reliable Ebay seller and I have had good experiences with that cable before. I wonder if I should try some fancy usb-cable to go with it also. I think I will keep Ndac for myself because no one have had any interest for it and I will not want to lower the price anymore because it is already a bargain for a dac in like new conditon. I think I will continue using it with Legato. So two dac setups now on. :)

Do you have any recommendation of usb-cable? Is chord Silver Plus usb any good? No ridiculous price tag on it.

I think you should try good quality USB sable. I've heard good things about Wireworld and AQ USB cables (know nothing about the Chord). They do not cost a leg. At the moment I am using Locus Design Polestar cable and I am very happy with it although it was pretty pricey.
After all, please tell us about A-B comparation between nDAC and Hegel HD11/HD2. Which one do you prefer in your system?

btw, what was the asking price for nDAC?

Regards!

[Olli I]

I think you should try good quality USB sable. I've heard good things about Wireworld and AQ USB cables (know nothing about the Chord). They do not cost a leg. At the moment I am using Locus Design Polestar cable and I am very happy with it although it was pretty pricey.
After all, please tell us about A-B comparation between nDAC and Hegel HD11/HD2. Which one do you prefer in your system?

btw, what was the asking price for nDAC?

Regards!


I am going to post something when I have had enough time to listen. I asked £1390 including delivery of a ndac which is like new condition with all the original accessories and packaging. If paid in Euros it would have been 1690. I tought it would be a bargain for that price but what do yo know. :)