Static issue with t/t

[Jazid]

HI all,
now I have a shiny upgraded phono stage and 1042 to supply vibes I am in 7th heaven.:cool:
Its a 401 with a ringmat then a cork mat on top (I'm not finished playing with this arrangement in case the thread gets derailed). Thing is this - when I play records I always zerostat them 1st but when I get to the end of the side and turn the disc over its full of static again. Needs another good zerostating. I understand that there's nowhere for the static to discharge to through the cork, but where is it all coming from? Is the action of the needle on the vinyl enough to generate this, and wouldn't it dissipate through the cantilever? :scratch:

[Greg2010]

Hi James,
I have the same issue with my 401, I haven't got round to sorting it yet, I have another couple of mats that I could try, but the overall sound with the cork mat is excellent. The thing is, on my technics 1200 with the same mat, the issue does not occur, the two tt's I have are no more than a couple of feet from each other so can't be a room issue.
What kind of plinth is your 401 in? Mine's in a wooden affair, very resonant, with rubber feet, which may have a bearing on the situation.
http://i859.photobucket.com/albums/ab152/greg2010_1/401002.jpg

Regards
Greg

[Jazid]

HI Greg, and thanks for the reply. Yes curious stuff! I've had a bunch of stuff in the past that never suffered this - rega p3, dual cs501, connoisseur, another old garrard, so its all a bit odd. The plinth is a custom one made by Russ Collinson and is a big old wooden lump made for 12" arms, though I have shoehorned a 9" SME V into it. Wonder if the arm has any relevance to this? Definitely NOT boomy or resonant this plinth, more 'hurt your knuckles' type of thing...

[Jazid]

Oh, and propped on the carpeted floor by some very un-foo bits of woodchip cd shelving from Viking. Its a concrete floor and a woollen carpet so the chance of resonance is rather slight though I seem to remember wool and plastic having amusing effects with balloons (when I was young and full of frippery of course).

[Greg2010]

I have a friend with a 401, that has had several different arms attached, but it's in a slate plinth, no sign of any static at all, so perhaps it's the wood/ cork combination ??? I've no doubt someone with far more knowledge than me will be along shortly to point us in the right direction.

I've just swapped the cork mat for an achromat, it's reduced the static problem but it's also reduced the sound stage, and had other unpleasant effects....... so not an improvement really.

Regards
Greg

[YNWaN]

Right guys, this is the issue, (I've never written this before, but as a turntable 'expert' this is the issue). There are only three ways to impart static to your records (they do not inherently have it), 1/ the needle playing in the groove generates it. 2/ you clean the record on the platter before playing on the platter and this creates static in the record, 3/ you personally impart the static charge from yourself - you have charged yourself by walking on your carpet. Although it is possible for your record to discharge static it isn't as common/likely as you may assume. Firstly, the record must be electrically earthed. Not only must the main bearing be earthed, but the record must be earthed (i.e. not sit on a felt mat etc.).

Static is often blamed for record noise, but is rarely the actual cause. Cause number 2 is, by far, the most common reason a record has significant static charge - just handling the record is usually enough to earth what charge it has.

[AlfaGTV]

I would generally say that organic materials does NOT generate static electricity as much as synthetic materials do. But then i remembered the lesson in school where you used a cat's fleece to rub a fluorescent light bulb!
(If you haven't done this, i assure you that some frenetic rubbing will cause the bulb to emit as much light as a decent torch light)

However, i generally have very little static when playing vinyl on my different tt's. I have only had one which were horrible in that sense; My old Linn LP12/Ittok LV II... Peeling off the felt mat was a pain in the b-hind every time.

But one thing i've learned since the addition of a RCM in my house, is that carbon fibre brushes GENERATES loads of static! A properly cleaned record does NOT carry static, and it generally does not accumulate any during playing either.

Another thing also, a friend of mine uses an VPI Classic (Mk II) in his system and that thing... Jeeez, i've never experienced anything like it. You litterally have to pry the records loose from the platter after playing a side. And when you do, the surge attracts everything in the vicinity which is not anchored.
Strangest of all though, is the fact that there is very little audible interference that can be caused by this static, when playing?

So, conclusion, get yourself a proper RCM and leave the disc brushes untouched. And if that doesn't help, earthing the bearing should help also.

BR /Mike

[Dominic Harper]

Hi Mark, I have to agree with you on this one. Garrards benefit from at least the chassis and motor casting being grounded to earth via the mains. The main bearing could also be grounded if need be by attaching a wire to one of the thrust plate retainer screws. I have worked on many Garrards that came to me that way, but once fitted to a slate plinth do not suffer from static issues, and customers have not reported any problems.

Hi Greg! Think your referring to me lol

[Audioman]

Right guys, this is the issue, (I've never written this before, but as a turntable 'expert' this is the issue). There are only three ways to impart static to your records (they do not inherently have it), 1/ the needle playing in the groove generates it. 2/ you clean the record on the platter before playing on the platter and this creates static in the record, 3/ you personally impart the static charge from yourself - you have charged yourself by walking on your carpet. Although it is possible for your record to discharge static it isn't as common/likely as you may assume. Firstly, the record must be electrically earthed. Not only must the main bearing be earthed, but the record must be earthed (i.e. not sit on a felt mat etc.).

Static is often blamed for record noise, but is rarely the actual cause. Cause number 2 is, by far, the most common reason a record has significant static charge - just handling the record is usually enough to earth what charge it has.

This does not explain new records with a very strong static charge often making them difficult to remove from the sleeve. I have had to 'clean' some twice with the RCM to eliminate this problem. I have found pressings originating from Pallas to be the worst culprits for some reason even if produced in a proper poly lined sleeve.

Records cleaned with an RCM remain static free and attract little dust greatly reducing the use of carbon fibre brushes. Static is not the cause of surface noise. For those Ebay sellers describing records as having 'just some static noise' read noisy pressing or worn vinyl.

[Dominic Harper]

Fibrous materials such as carpet, wood and record sleeves will generate static.

[Macca]

The cat generates so much static I actually get shocks when I touch grounded items. The only other time I have experienced this is when in Las Vegas where for some reason i get a shock every time I hit the button for the lift, although I assume this is dwon to the super hard wearing nylon carpets they use everywhere but it doesn't happen to me in hotels elsewhere :scratch:

[Dominic Harper]

The cat generates so much static I actually get shocks when I touch grounded items. The only other time I have experienced this is when in Las Vegas where for some reason i get a shock every time I hit the button for the lift, although I assume this is dwon to the super hard wearing nylon carpets they use everywhere but it doesn't happen to me in hotels elsewhere :scratch:


PMSL :lol::lol:

Natalie;)

[YNWaN]

This does not explain new records with a very strong static charge often making them difficult to remove from the sleeve.

No it doesn't, you are right. I was talking about day to day playback; not the 'one off' position of removing a new record. As you say, new records often have a significant static charge on them. However, it is also my experience that this charge quickly dissipates as the record is handled.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Useful thread this... I was wondering why mine are always full of static when I lift them off the deck ... It seems it's from me cleaning them on the rotating deck
Which now I think about it makes complete sense

Just out of interest, if it doesn't effect the sound ... What's the problem trying to be avoided?

[Stratmangler]

Useful thread this... I was wondering why mine are always full of static when I lift them off the deck ... It seems it's from me cleaning them on the rotating deck
Which now I think about it makes complete sense

Just out of interest, if it doesn't effect the sound ... What's the problem trying to be avoided?

Tweeter protection.
If you get a rapid discharge picked up by the cart then it can sometimes be tears before bedtime.
Ferrofluid don't half smell funny when it gets hot.

Sometimes you'll also see a mat become charged and cling to the record as you try to remove it from the platter, which is something I experience occasionally.

A zerostat gun is most useful sometimes :eyebrows:

[The Grand Wazoo]

The static attracts dust and makes you rub it again with your brush next time you play, which attracts dust, which.....
Your brush doesn't get it all off and you're eventually left with 'orrible sounding records.

While you clean the record with your brush, put one fingertip of your other hand on the spindle of the record to drain the charge away.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Ah that's we're I have come short ... I usually have my finger up my nose you see ;)
Thats a good idea... I'll give it a go!
My mat is a big heavy rubber thing so it won't lift ... But I have thought of trying a different one ... Don't really know where to start though ... There are so many to choose from and no one else has my deck to compare notes with

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'll start another thread on that

[YNWaN]

I've never encountered a rapid discharge of static damaging a tweeter.

The problem is that it's an opportunity to sell anti-static stuff and, as said by others, it attracts dust etc. to your records.

If you stop cleaning your records on your TT the problem will largely go away. If you still have a lot of static try some pot plants in the room or even just a bowl of (evaporating) water. Central heating and draught free windows in modern homes leads to very dry air and this helps support static.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I live in a drafty victorian house and there is a 4' plant right by the tt ;)

[synsei]

Aha, that's it then, I'm off to put an offer on Stonehenge... :lol:

[YNWaN]

I live in a drafty victorian house and there is a 4' plant right by the tt ;)

Yeah, so do I - no living thing will share the space with me - I don't have static issues though.

[Jazid]

Hi all,
glad this has proved an interesting thread for others besides me! Mark, I think you have got the answer for me; I clean each and every lp with my trusty Pixall 2 before playing (I don't own a carbon fibre brush and sounds like I'm not going to get one after what I've heard here), I do hold the spindle whilst doing this and usually the edge of the record. But I have tried zerostating after cleaning and the problem seems to have gone away. early days but looking very successful. Thanks a lot. I have to pull the t/t apart presently to play with the motor wires than are touching the plinth and generating mechanical hum, so whilst it is upended maybe I should earth the spindle and chassis. I'd be pretty surprised if the chassis wasn't earthed anyway, surely it would have been done for safety when manufactured?

Any tips on said earthing? Good points to earth to etc? All offers gratefully received :)

[Alex_UK]

Seems I have the same problem with static on my 401, and as I started reading this thread I assumed it was a 401 thing... but no, brushing records on the turntable without earthing myself is probably the issue... :doh: Thanks for bringing this to our attention!

[The Grand Wazoo]

Why don't you use that little red gun I sold you a while back Hamish?

[YNWaN]

Any tips on said earthing? Good points to earth to etc? All offers gratefully received :)

Well, if one has any hope of earthing the record, then it is the main bearing that must be earthed. However, for this to be worth doing there must be electrical continuity in the bearing and in many cases there is not (i.e. the inner and outer elements of the bearing must make metal to metal contact). Assuming that they do, a wire should be run between the bearing and mains earth (often the body of the motor is also run to mains earth if that helps).
__________________

Edit: on rereading the above, it occurs to me that my comments may be construed as suggesting that metal to metal contact for the bearing elements is, in general, a desirable/essential element; this is not what I meant, other than within the context of earthing the record. An earlier incarnation of my own turntable did have electrical continuity running through the bearing, but the current iteration does not, no metal touches metal.

Use a continuity tester to see if your bearing conducts from the bearing spindle to the bearing housing; if it does not, then don't bother with running any earth wire from the bearing.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Why don't you use that little red gun I sold you a while back Hamish?

Did you sell me an antistat?
I do have one but it's not red...

This finger on the spindle whilst cleaning the record on the deck thing works a treat, it's completely solved the issue for me!
I don't like holding them to clean them as I knackered my Jeff Buckley grace album by dropping it whilst cleaning it :doh:

[The Grand Wazoo]

I could swear it was you mate. Could be wrong.
Definitely red though! (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11009)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Nope not me matey ...
I have enquired about them though and it was you who told me about it
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1730&page=5

[Jazid]

Further mysteries! As a result of unclear bass I have now fiddled around with the mats (again). Current config is the Garrard mat overlaid with a cork mat. Sounds a lot better than before, but here's the thing - no more static issues! So it seems it was the cleaning and the combo of ringmat and cork.

In case you are wondering 'why two mats?' the answer is that my armboard is too high to allow the arm to track horizontally, so since I cannot currently make a thinner non-resonant armboard I have doubled up the mats. Seems to work quite well though obviously early days yet.