View Full Version : Liam Gallagher clothing chain will sell records!
Check out this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/9252046/Liam-Gallaghers-Pretty-Green-clothing-chain-to-sell-vinyl-records.html
Can't be bad news, even if it's just a few well-known titles! However, a few points from the article:
The number of independent record shops in the UK has fallen from around 2,000 a decade ago to 300 today.
There must be more than that... Based on my experience of seeking out these places, I reckon that there must be at least that many in the north of the country alone! Where do they get these stats from?
Customers will be able to buy the albums by browsing record sleeves on display in Pretty Green’s shop windows and then ordering them via a mobile telephone app. The records will then be delivered to the customer by post.
Well, that's a bit of a rigmarole, innit? Why not also sell them in the normal way, the same as their other items of stock? Buying records is often a spontaneous thing. Experience tells me that, if you give people time to think about something, quite often they'll change their mind, or simply forget...
I get why they're going to sell them 'virtually', but apart from removing the spontaneity of the purchase, not everyone owns a 'fancy' mobile phone, able to utilise the necessary app! :rolleyes:
Still, anything that gets vinyl out there to a wider (mainstream) audience has to be a good thing! :)
What's encouraging is that there are more and more signs of a definite revival in the interest of vinyl, especially the way it's being marketed as 'cool and trendy', thereby appealing to younger people, which can only bode well for its long-term future.
Your thoughts please, chaps?
Marco.
Audioman
09-05-2012, 08:47
According to Graham Jones' book ' Last Shop Standing' there were 948 independent record shops and privately owned small chains in 2003. By 2007 this was down to 408. With more closing since then and actualy a few new ones opening I would guess a figure of 300+ may be fairly accurate. Not all these shops sell or sold vinyl some being specialists in certain musical genres on CD. Add to that the fact that major chains are now defunct except for HMV.
BTW I highly recommend Graham Jones' book. An entertaining insight into the music retail business.
I can't really argue, Paul, as I don't know for sure. I'm just going on perception, based on my own recent experience.
Off the top of my head, I can think of around 60 independent record shops, alone, that I know of in Scotland, Northern England and Wales. Therefore, 300 in total, around the WHOLE of the UK, strikes me as being a little conservative...
One wonders if these stats get updated when new shops open, and indeed even how they find out about it, particularly when it comes to tiny outlets, somewhat 'off the beaten track'?
For example, last year Snapper and I were driving through Rhyl, in North Wales, and just happened to pass by, at the side of the road, a newly opened second-hand record shop. It was only small, and simply a 'one man band' affair, but the guy was selling some good stuff.
Another one was little stall a guy had in an indoor shopping centre in Irvine, Scotland. Another example, and one not much bigger, is in an industrial estate in the middle of nowhere, near Frodsham, in Cheshire, I could go on...
How on earth would little outlets like that, with an extremely low commercial profile, be added to the official stats? And if they're not, how many similar small record selling outlets, all around the country, aren't being reflected in the official stats either?
Marco.
morris_minor
09-05-2012, 09:09
I've noticed a number of TV adverts that feature turntables as part of the "lifestyle" being promoted (including one for Durex :lol:).
Same here! It's all part of creating a subliminal message... Trust me, in marketing, these things work, and something or someone is driving it ;)
Marco.
Audioman
09-05-2012, 09:19
I think there is probably a greater density of shops selling vinyl 'up north'. There is nothing left around here I know except for Visual Vinyl at Weedon, Northants. That is a fairly recent second hand shop. Don't think anything but HMV in Coventry and most independent shops have closed in Leicester and Birmingham.
This area used to be very strong for record shops. What Records closed their last shop in Nuneaton a good few years ago and have gone totaly online. Just remembered there is 'Rise' at Warwick Arts Centre on the University campus another fairly recent opening.
I think there is probably a greater density of shops selling vinyl 'up north'.
I agree, and I've often wondered why that is... Any ideas?
And do you think that the stats quoted are biased towards what the scene is 'darn sarf'? If so, it's hardly an accurate reflection of the UK-wide record shop scene, is it?
Therefore, it doesn't reflect the true reality, thus making the stats, claimed in the newspaper article, erroneous! :doh:
Marco.
Audioman
09-05-2012, 09:49
I agree, and I've often wondered why that is... Any ideas?
And do you think that the stats quoted are biased towards what the scene is 'darn sarf'? If so, it's hardly an accurate reflection of the UK-wide record shop scene, is it?
Therefore, it doesn't reflect the true reality, thus making the stats, claimed in the newspaper article, erroneous! :doh:
Marco.
I doubt it Marco. Record shops are realy rare over much of middle and southern England. In the Jones book around 50 are visited with a detailed write up and there are a fair number in Wales and Scotland. Of course they probably don't count obscure one man band used record stalls that may be more plentifull as you get furthur north. All stats are approximate but that 300 figure is close or even more than I have seen quoted elsewhere.
I doubt it Marco. Record shops are realy rare over much of middle and southern England.
Indeed, but not everything revolves around what happens in middle and southern England :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I detect a somewhat familiar bias...
Of course they probably don't count obscure one man band used record stalls that may be more plentifull as you get furthur north.
Well, in that case, they're missing counting a significant percentage of the total UK-wide vinyl sales, and thus underestimating the current level of its popularity!
Marco.
Audioman
09-05-2012, 10:08
Indeed, but not everything revolves around what happens in middle and southern England :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I detect a somewhat familiar bias...
I detect that you may have a bit of a northern bias Marco. :lol:
Well, in that case, they're missing counting a significant percentage of the total UK-wide vinyl sales, and thus underestimating the current level of its popularity!
Marco.
I would't be surprised if the stats only included established brick and mortar premises that at least sold some new product. Also a record shop may be a CD/music shop rather than sell any vinyl.
Of course these figures do not relate to vinyl sales due to the above and the number of independent dealers who are now exclusively on line. I'm sure as much or more new vinyl is purchased from ebay as by buyers walking into one of these independents. Amazon are likely the biggest vinyl retailer by far.
I detect that you may have a bit of a northern bias Marco. :lol:
Lol... I don't, but if I had, it'd be justified, as we often get forgotten about up here by you lot!! ;)
I would't be surprised if the stats only included established brick and mortar premises that at least sold new product. Also a record shop may be a CD/music shop rather than sell any vinyl.
Indeed.
Of course these figures do not relate to vinyl sales due to the above and the number of independent dealers who are now exclusively on line. I'm sure as much or more new vinyl is purchased from ebay as by buyers walking into one of these independents. Amazon are likely the biggest vinyl retailer by far.
Indeed, yet again; and therefore, coupled with your previous valid observation, it renders the 'official stats' as being little more than a curiosity.
Such 'mainstream thinking' is so often responsible for not getting to the heart (and truth) of a matter, (and audio is just one valid example of that), as people often can't be bothered looking for the existence of anything, beyond that which lies at the end of their nose!
Quite simply, apart from anything else discussed above, if the more vibrant record buying scene 'oop north' isn't accurately reflected in the official UK-wide stats, then it's not an accurate reflection of the true scene in the UK. It's as simple as that.
I think a more accurate figure, taking into consideration the 100s of small record shops and stalls in the north of the country and in Scotland, will more likely be more than double the figure originally quoted! :)
Marco.
Audioman
09-05-2012, 10:33
I think a more accurate figure, taking into consideration the 100s of small record shops and stalls in the north of the country and in Scotland, will more likely be more than double the figure originally quoted! :)
Marco.
Can you be sure there are hundreds. If we are talking market stall how permanent are they and how does any survey pick them all up ? I'm sure there are many small music and audio businesses out there that still that don't advertise or have an internet presence.
Perhaps we could start an AOS vinyl shop survey as the menbership is now pretty well spread. This could be based on reporting new finds together with local internet and media searches.
northwest
09-05-2012, 10:42
I've noticed a number of TV adverts that feature turntables as part of the "lifestyle" being promoted (including one for Durex :lol:).
Well I noticed a Lenco 75 being used on a dating advert on the Tube last week!
(I wouldn't have known what type it was week before last:rolleyes: )
On the subject of "small independant shops". I had occassion last week to have a walk around Manchester centre sand those "terrific" "Must See" emporiums.
Well I saw and after drawing my own conclusions I won't be back!
The Vinyl Exchange - You are kidding me right? A re-issue of King Crimson at £60? Along with a plethora of other overpriced maybe's! No thanks. Won't be going back.
Picadilly Records - much the same I am afraid, if you are looking for anything Jazz, Classical or Rock - well sadly, ebay is your friend!
The other gaff 'round the corner was better.
Eastern Bloc is now all online (mostly) as the proprietors have seen that being a coffee shop is a better idea. So browsing is out.
A little record place in Hyde Market, near Ashton under Lyne is a better bet! I cannot reccomment either Ruperts place near Frodsham or Rubber Soul Records in Stoke enough. Guaranteed a bargain.
PB Records just off the Tottenham Court Road is also great, not the biggest selection in the world but every record pristine.
Can you be sure there are hundreds. If we are talking market stall how permanent are they and how does any survey pick them all up ?
Of course I can't be sure, but if what I've experienced is being repeated elsewhere around the north of the country, then it seems likely that there would be roughly that amount.
Perhaps we could start an AOS vinyl shop survey as the menbership is now pretty well spread. This could be based on reporting new finds together with local internet and media searches.
Good idea. There's something similar going on already: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=179275#post179275
Marco.
I'm not sure I believe the 300 stores figure (he doesn't quote his source), but I'm betting a disproportionate number of them are up north. I seem to be surrounded by iPod and download lovers and hardly ever have a conversation with someone who appreciates listening to music on any kind of media.
However, this can only be good news and, frankly, whatever distribution model they want to use is ok with me when they want to sell vinyl. I've had a browse around Uvinyl and it's a good start.
I seem to be surrounded by iPod and download lovers and hardly ever have a conversation with someone who appreciates listening to music on any kind of media.
Any idea why that is, Martin? The subject has come up before, but always seems to be ignored or brushed aside.
Paul, obviously feels it's the same in his neck of the woods, so why is the vinyl buying scene (and indeed physical music media buying scene) apparently much more vibrant up north?
Do you think, perhaps, that commercialism and the impact of 'modern day life'/'rat race' has bitten more deeply into society, in the south of the country, whereas traditional values and ways of living, are more apparent up north? In general, that certainly been my experience.
It's an interesting topic, which I feel should be explored more! :)
Marco.
Audioman
09-05-2012, 11:09
I'm not sure I believe the 300 stores figure (he doesn't quote his source), but I'm betting a disproportionate number of them are up north. I seem to be surrounded by iPod and download lovers and hardly ever have a conversation with someone who appreciates listening to music on any kind of media.
However, this can only be good news and, frankly, whatever distribution model they want to use is ok with me when they want to sell vinyl. I've had a browse around Uvinyl and it's a good start.
We hi-fi and vinyl lovers are a rare breed still I'm afraid. Universal are doing a great job with their internet vinyl business which I hope other majors will follow. Of course this does not help the survival of Independent retailers. However in making it easier for those interested to access vinyl it's a good thing. The vast majority of the population don't have easy access to proper records shops any more at least down south.
Indeed, but it's important always to remember that the situation down south doesn't reflect the WHOLE UK scene...
When you live in the south, it's *so* easy to get sucked into an insular mindset, which only succeeds in giving one a rather (often unintentionally) blinkered view of the reallity ;)
Marco.
Any idea why that is, Martin? The subject has come up before, but always seems to be ignored or brushed aside.
I really wish I knew. It's just as easy for me to ask why the north still has such relative interest in retail vinyl. All the glib answers about the south being more about bankers and finance don't really ring true. We still have schools and hospitals and manufacturing, it's just that we're more densely populated. It could possibly be about the very high take-up in internet shopping (one of the highest in the world) causing so much stress and closure of shops. That is very real and evident down here.
Audioman
09-05-2012, 12:32
Possibly people up north have more spare wonga to spend on vinyl and other entertainment. Remember if you live in the SE unless you earn quite a large salary you are likely near the poverty line. Hence all the political controversy about benefit payments.
The fact is, folks, that up north here we are just too cool for school. You southern softees will always be playing catch -up to us - maybe in 5 years time or so you will start to get some proper record shops down there :ner:
Not checked it out yet but apparantly we have another used vinyl shop just opened in Hanley, Staffs... I'm told it is rather good.
It's just as easy for me to ask why the north still has such relative interest in retail vinyl.
I don't think the interest is restricted to vinyl buying. Indeed, given its minority interest anywhere, these days, that most certainly isn't it.
I think that, overall, it's simply a case of there being more of an interest in traditional values and ways of life, with what one listens to music on, being a case in point, and when living up north, being (to an extent) less affected by the ravages of consumerism. The higher population down south is a major factor in this, as is also, in turn, the greater existence of urbanisation, due to the larger proliferation of big cities.
For example, here are some things to consider:
Do you have a local butcher, fishmonger or fruiterer near you? How easy is it to obtain local organic produce? Are there more 'chain shops' in your area than small family-run businesses? How many local markets are there near you? What's the town centre like in Basingstoke? Does it still feel 'alive' and full of 'real' people, or has it had the heart torn out of it by out-of-town shopping centres, where everyone flocks to, simply to have the convenience of everything being 'all under one roof', at the cheapest prices?
Whenever I go down south, I see much more evidence of that than where I live, or have lived in the past, up in Scotland.
Indeed, around Wrexham, even though it's huge town, and the biggest in North Wales, there is still ample evidence of the traditional ways people used to live, as I've alluded to in my previous paragraph. Life, down south, for me, in general, unless one enters rural areas, always seems lacking in those things which I value so dearly, and where one is very much part of the modern 'rat race'.
It could possibly be about the very high take-up in internet shopping (one of the highest in the world) causing so much stress and closure of shops. That is very real and evident down here.
That's a very interesting point, and one which I wasn't aware of. Do you think that's because, in general, people living down south lead busier lives, thus have a poorer work/life balance, and therefore less time to carry out everyday tasks in the REAL world? :)
Marco.
The fact is, folks, that up north here we are just too cool for school. You southern softees will always be playing catch -up to us - maybe in 5 years time or so you will start to get some proper record shops down there :ner:
Hehehehe... For me, there’s a direct correlation between the lack of independently owned record shops, in the south, and the lack of independently owned anything there, in general. It’s simply a different way of life. The effects of consumerism have hit harder, down south.
I’m with John Peel, and his love of slow-paced rural life, a simple, uncomplicated existence, and a dislike of being in or near London (although he still lived in the south - suppose he had to, or he'd have been late for work every day!) as was documented in the recent video, linked to elsewhere on the forum.
The weather might be colder up here, but there’s more 'soul', man! :smoking:
Marco.
That's a very interesting point, and one which I wasn't aware of. Do you think that's because, in general, people living down south lead busier lives, thus have a poorer work/life balance, and therefore less time to carry out everyday tasks in the REAL world? :)
Yes, I think that may be part of the answer. Judging by how many packages are delivered to my place of work every day from internet sites, it's a major factor.
Lol! I'd value your answer to this:
For example, here are some things to consider:
Do you have a local butcher, fishmonger or fruiterer near you? How easy is it to obtain local organic produce? Are there more 'chain shops' in your area than small family-run businesses? How many local markets are there near you? What's the town centre like in Basingstoke? Does it still feel 'alive' and full of 'real' people, or has it had the heart torn out of it by out-of-town shopping centres, where everyone flocks to, simply to have the convenience of everything being 'all under one roof', at the cheapest prices?
...simply to see if you confirm what I suspect :)
Marco.
Lol! I'd value your answer to this:
Are you asking me?
My local butcher is Morrisons down the road.
My local fishmonger is Morrisons down the road.
My local fruiterer is Morrisons down the road.
:lol:
:lolsign:
Kinda says it all, dude!
Marco.
That's just the way things are set up down here. Saying that, Morrisons are way, way better than any local place I know for meat (especially filet beef) and they are world class for bread.
I know. The (huge) Morrisons here is also very good, being a 'Fresh Market' store. The fresh veg selection, and like you say, bread, is second to none for a mainstream supermarket.
However, for meat, we still use our local butcher (a 100-year old family business, 5 mins away from our door), whose produce is 100% organic, and also sourced locally. His Welsh lamb, as you can imagine, and Welsh Black beef, are simply to die for! ;)
Once a month, there is also a farmer's market, right across from our house, where the most amazing local produce, of all descriptions, is sold. When Ruth and you come up to visit, you can sample some of it :)
Marco.
P.S Oh, and there's also a 'bricks and mortar', independently owned record shop, in town (and one in the indoor market)...! :eyebrows:
Audioman
09-05-2012, 14:06
I think this local butcher v supermarket thing is all dependent on specific areas. More to do with Supermarkets saturating the market in some areas. Marco you are also confusing the South in general with Greater London and the South East. Basingstoke is certainly not typical of the rest of the south. Much as you go north and west is just as rural as many northern areas. My own area is now devoid of butchers because Rugby is saturated by 5 or 6 supermarkets in a medium sized town. Other towns are different were the supermarkets have a lesser influence.
In fact if you remove London and the surrounding towns out of the equation you have only got Bristol/Bath as a very large urban area. All the other big cities starting from Birmingham up are in the Midlands and North. The proliferation of independents is partly due to culture but mostly due to cost.
Rental and rates make music store businesses unprofitable (unless the property is owner occupier). This even applies to the centre of Birmingham forcing the renowned Reddingtons to close amoung others. It can't be any coincidence that while there are few record stores in Birmingham there are 22 at least in Manchester. Both were centres for music culture at one time. Manchester still is.
In fact if you remove London and the surrounding towns out of the equation...
Just like that, eh? Let's 'remove' Glasgow, Manchester and Liverpool, too, while we're at it! ;)
However, I take your point. I also think that the general points I've made are reflected in the UK reality.
What's your local town like? Does it still have 'soul', or has it turned into a consumerist 'plastic paradise', like so many other towns have, down south?
Marco.
With reference to an earlier point I've also noticed quite a few adverts with rather nice looking turntables in them, in particular theres one for a brand of coffee which sponsors programmes on sky arts which has a close up of a cart/tonearm being put on the record accompanied by a gentle crackling sound which gives way to an image of steam coming from said coffee. I think its definately subliminal and people may well be seeking out turntables and vinyl as a 'lifestyle' accessory without knowing why they are doing it...
I guess having a nice looking turntable and a stack of quality lps in your nicely decorated room must make some kind of statement of the kind of person you are... much in the same way as people proudly display books they have never read or intend to read in an attempt to appear cosmopolitan (my aspirational parents were gulity of this in the 80s).
I dont mind, its all good and probably means there'll be loads of good quality vinyl kicking around, as well as some barely used turntables when the fad eventually passes. Mind you, I only have a tt so i can bring all my vinyl into the digital era... I've invested too much much time and money into CDs over the years to start a serious vinyl habit again so I've resisted any new purchases.
With reference to an earlier point I've also noticed quite a few adverts with rather nice looking turntables in them, in particular theres one for a brand of coffee which sponsors programmes on sky arts which has a close up of a cart/tonearm being put on the record accompanied by a gentle crackling sound which gives way to an image of steam coming from said coffee. I think its definately subliminal and people may well be seeking out turntables and vinyl as a 'lifestyle' accessory without knowing why they are doing it...
An an excellent point, Rich, as indeed I mentioned earlier. Trust me; I've been in sales and marketing, and that shit works! ;)
Marco.
Nice thread....but on the point about record stores, try the Vinyl District App, which will tell you how many KMs you are from the closest record store anywhere in the world and gives directions (works better in the Midlands than the North or South though!)
John
Reid Malenfant
10-05-2012, 21:36
Yes, but what about Liam Gallagher.... :whistle:
:donk: :punch: :wanker: :acid: :laser:
I believe he's been assigned to the fitting rooms, measuring inside legs.
Marco.
bogle111
10-05-2012, 23:07
Having a turntable on display in an ad now, aludes to the household being established and cultured. Either that or they are ex Ikea display items.
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