Improving the 'soundstage' of a Tech

[indus]

Now that my bass issues have been much improved (plenty of it but just lacks some control and articulation at times) I can move on a bit.

Having done some more listening I feel the soundstage (if that is the correct term) is somewhat lacking. It doesn't seem as 'big' as my CDP and also doesn't seem to have that 3D effect to it. It seems flat and slightly incoherent, seems to lack that 'space' and 'air' around the instruments that add realism to the presentation.

I have a number of mods planned ie Jelco arm, external PSU and uprated Vantage bearing.

I'm just wondering is there any one particular mod ie bearing, platter, psu etc that has the most effect on improving this issue, or do they all synergise in this respect?

Thanks again for your help

[gx502]

I tend to agree with your comment that in stock form, sound-staging is not a great strength of the SL1200.

But I would think that the mods you are planning, will help all round, it should be preetty good when you are done.

(For my deck, the part that gave the biggest "jump" all round was the MN-bearing.)

It could also be cartridge related, when my deck was stock bar KAB arm damper, the best soundstaging I got was with an Ortofon Concorde cartridge with a OM40 FG70 stylus.

It was reviewed by positive feedback, and the reviewer describes it as "3D goggles for your stereo"....

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue17/kaborotfon.htm

[Audioman]

David. If you want great soundstaging even the highly modified Techie won't do this like a Mitchell deck. I think you should decide which presentation you prefer before going for more expensive upgrades. While I'm sure your proposed mods will improve this I don't think this is the Technics' main strength.

[DSJR]

Try a Croft phono stage and/or preamp before condemning the techie... Maybe the speakers are affecting the bass due to lack of control in themselves, or the driving amp and, unless ARC have had a change of heart in recent years, they major on added bloom, so not really high-fidelity to the tonal qualities of instruments, although detailing is usually first class. Turntables are potentially wonderful feedback devices and lighter weight solid decks are the most prone, so good luck with all your plans.

[Marco]

That's a very good point, Dave, although a Techy, no matter how 'tweaked', will never 'soundstage' like a Michell.... In that respect, Paul is right.

Marco.

[DSJR]

But a Michell doesn't soundstage Marco :confused: I always found the image swam around without focus whenever I heard one, many times over the decades. Only the Orbe seems to have any stature, but still not as solid as a Hyperspace, let alone a Dias, if you don't mind me expressing an opinion :scratch: Just my current thoughts.............

[indus]

Thanks Rav

Thanks Paul, perhaps I should audition some other decks before I go any further. Problem is the ones I REALLY like the look and design of cost mega bucks ie the price of a small car!

David, I'm not sure what a Croft would add to the equation that my Whest lacks?

The somewhat 'flabby bass' is probably not the fault of my speakers as I don't get it with my CDP. I'm pretty sure this issue could be improved as I still have the standard arm and my deck could be better isolated (even though I have iso feet). So with these two issues sorted I'm sure the bass control would improve. Though as I've mentioned the 'flat' or one dimensional sound stage seems to me to be a bigger issue.


Marco, are you agreeing that this issue (of soundstage) cannot really be much improved on the Tech? If that is the case then I'm surprised you enjoy listening to the deck so much. More so given that I listen 99% of the time to dance music, but if you are listening to more acoustic, classical etc it must be even more of an issue.

Thanks

[Audioman]

Soundstage is more important to some people than others. Some listeners are more focused on imperceptable changes in speed stability and/or rythm and timing.

Dave (DSJR) the Gyrodec doesn't swim about soundstage wise. Certainly mine doesn't with the QC supply.

David which 'mega expensive' decks appeal to you visualy ?

[Marco]

Hi David,


Marco, are you agreeing that this issue (of soundstage) cannot really be much improved on the Tech? If that is the case then I'm surprised you enjoy listening to the deck so much. More so given that I listen 99% of the time to dance music, but if you are listening to more acoustic, classical etc it must be even more of an issue.


Nope, not at all! Perhaps I should've made myself clearer... What I'm saying is that soundstaging is something that the Technics doesn't do as brilliantly well as some other T/Ts.

If one were producing a report card for the Techy, 'Soundstaging' would only get one gold star, instead of two (or more) for everything else, particularly solidity, uber-accurate speed stability, pitch and timing accuracy, and the fundamental importance that those traits have on a turntable's ability to faithfully reproduce recorded music!

There's a world of difference between what your T/T, in its current stage of development, is capable of, in terms of soundstaging, compared to my very much more modfied one. However, soundstage qualities will never be the greatest sonic strength of the Technics, so if your ears are particularly attuned to wide soundstaging, and you value that more than anything else, then it's probably best to look at other T/Ts, which excel *more* in that area.

Does that answer your question better? :)

Marco.

P.S Dave, our respective experiences then of Michells are rather different - no worries!

[Marco]

Some listeners are more focused on imperceptable changes in speed stability and/or rythm and timing.


Count me in, with bells on - although they are most certainly perceptable!!

It's also a tonal thing, too, as low and medium-mass belt-drives, to my ears, always sound rather 'soft' and lacking in 'heft', in comparison with the 'ballsy' sound, and 'excitement factor' of a good idler or direct-drive - particularly a Techy, when suitably modified :)

Low and medium-mass belt-drives tend to have a more 'ethereal', gentler style of musical presentation, whereas idlers and D/Ds tend to have a more forceful, 'physical' one, majoring on producing a 'propulsive' sound, full of vim and vigour.

I will always favour the latter over the former, as it tends to suit my musical tastes more, and also how I like a system to sound, but as they say: different strokes for different folks!

Marco.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Dave, you've often mentioned your experiences of 'swimmy' Michell soundstages but I've never heard anything like that & contend that the Gyro is able to project one of the best portrayals of stereo information available. Many agree with me - I'm confused.

[Marco]

I agree, Chris. To my ears, Michells 'stage like bastards! However, it goes back to the old flat-earth/round-earth thing.

Coming from a Linn/Naim background, I'll always be a classic 'flat-earther' at heart, and so, pace, rhythm and timing, and tunefulness, will always essentially be what I strive to achieve from any bit of kit or system that I own.

That acts as the foundation or 'building blocks' on which I would always assemble a system. If kit doesn't 'boogie like a bastard' and get your feet tapping, no matter what else it's good at - I don't wanna know...

*BUT*, these days, having heard what truly top-notch valve gear can do, I also value 'round earth' traits, such as tonal purity, instrumental 'texture' and separation, and yes, realistic soundstaging, and have brought those traits into my system, without sacrificing the traditional 'flat-earth' ones, which are so important to me.

All I've done then, effectively, is found a better way of achieving my ideal goal, than using the flat-earther's 'guidebook to PRAT', which I worshipped at one time. The fact is, you CAN have the best of both worlds, if you know the right path to follow! ;)

Marco.

[DSJR]

Dave, you've often mentioned your experiences of 'swimmy' Michell soundstages but I've never heard anything like that & contend that the Gyro is able to project one of the best portrayals of stereo information available. Many agree with me - I'm confused.

I was spoiled perhaps, since I was fortunate to hear something better which cost less and didn't need the messing around :scratch: I'm also surprised the pitch issues didn't rear their ugly head for you with a Gyro either, since I found them worse in the tune dems than others. Not the Orbe, which seems to answer so much of it at a stroke, but the Gyro was always second-rank to me, sorry.. I came at the thing with an open mind and considered buying one, but later exposure to it (at KJ and LI when I was there) just confirmed my impressions from a few years before, so I sort of put it to one side..

[The Grand Wazoo]

When was this Dave & what was supplying the power? As you know, the Gyro has had a long life! It has also had several different power supply options.

[chris@panteg]

I think a great strength of the SL1200 or at least mine as it stands at the moment with mods and now the combo of 309 and the 33EV , is no matter how dense or complex the music becomes , especially the bass pounding away, it seems a hell of lot easier to follow everything else that's going on in the mix and in perfect time .

I'm not saying mine is the finished article or the real deal but it's so much better sounding now than even a year ago ! Soundstaging is good enough , I believe the combination of the SME and AT cart gets the best out of the Techy's soundstage FWIW , but of course not to everyone's taste.

[MartinT]

I think a great strength of the SL1200 or at least mine as it stands at the moment with mods and now the combo of 309 and the 33EV , is no matter how dense or complex the music becomes , especially the bass pounding away, it seems a hell of lot easier to follow everything else that's going on in the mix and in perfect time .

Yes, I agree with that, Chris. The Techie may not have ultimate soundstaging but it's pretty bloody good and, as you say, the individual strands of music are very easy to pick out.

David - you need to get the bearing and PSU in to start to hear what the Techie can do. Then the Jelco will have the platform it needs to work its magic.

[indus]

Thanks guys. What I'm really thinking is will the soundstage improve quite a bit from where it is now with mods? I understand that it will never be the last word in this respect but is it an area that responds well to tweaking?

Going off topic a little (but it might be relevent) can I ask a question about isolating the deck? I have the iso feet but the deck just sits on top of a cheap Alphason cabinet about 3 feet away from the nearest speaker.

I can't use a dedictated hifi stand as the room also doubles up for home cinema use and so I have about 10 'boxes' of hifi and a large centre speaker to accomodate. A dedicated shelf would also be very difficult for me.

Is there anything else I can do to help in this regard?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-17180553.jpg

[Audioman]

Thanks guys. What I'm really thinking is will the soundstage improve quite a bit from where it is now with mods? I understand that it will never be the last word in this respect but is it an area that responds well to tweaking?

Going off topic a little (but it might be relevent) can I ask a question about isolating the deck? I have the iso feet but the deck just sits on top of a cheap Alphason cabinet about 3 feet away from the nearest speaker.

I can't use a dedictated hifi stand as the room also doubles up for home cinema use and so I have about 10 'boxes' of hifi and a large centre speaker to accomodate. A dedicated shelf would also be very difficult for me.

Is there anything else I can do to help in this regard?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-17180553.jpg

Individual isolation platforms will improve things a great deal. I have found an MDF sheet supported by Isopods greatly improves a CD player. You may have to experiment with combinations of sorbothane feet and various isolation cones to find what sounds best. A big no no - don't stack boxes on top of one another both for SQ and to enable efficient heat loss.

[indus]

Thanks Paul. How about something like this? Will this basically do what you are referring to?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ISOKINETIK-ISOdEK-IF-2-TURNTABLE-ISOLATION-PLATFORM-NEW-/170468628656


In terms of stacking the 'boxes' there is little I can do at present as I physically don't have space. My plan in the longer term is to have a custom made higher cabinet that can house all my boxes but allow space and isolation between them.

Many thanks

[Audioman]

Thanks Paul. How about something like this? Will this basically do what you are referring to?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ISOKINETIK-ISOdEK-IF-2-TURNTABLE-ISOLATION-PLATFORM-NEW-/170468628656

Yes but I think they are a little pricey for a piece of perspex and isolation cones. Don't know how well it works with the Technics but a forum member may have tried these. If you make your own you can experiment for a fraction of the money even though it won't look as good.

[indus]

Yes but I think they are a little pricey for a piece of perspex and isolation cones. Don't know how well it works with the Technics but a forum member may have tried these. If you make your own you can experiment for a fraction of the money even though it won't look as good.



Thanks Paul, that is a very good point. I'm going to design and build my own.:)

I'll start a thread in the diy section to get some advice