View Full Version : Are we seeking the first signs of a culture of un-greed in our industry?
The brutal truth, Marco, is that I've always trusted my ears, it's other peoples' ears I doubt. I feel no need to run ABX tests to make my decisions, as I'm absolutely convinced that it all comes down to preference anyway.
With that said, if I had a magic wand I would deem that the audiophile community believe in ABX testing and that a great ABX facility be created to test the audibility of every product on the market. Why?
A) Because I believe in ABX testing. Yes, even in hifi, even after all of our discussion. I don't believe it is infallible, but I don't believe that of anything.
B) Because sadly, this wonderful hobby, created for the better enjoyment of one of the most beautiful art forms in all of human endeavor, appears to have more charlatans and fools per square inch than the desert has grains of sand.
All present company excepted.
It is my sense of justice that drives this particular conversation more than anything specific to audiophilia. I see snake oil salesmen taking dear prices for illusions, from people who turn around and speak the highest and most imprecise praise for these illusions, on the internet, to the uninitiated who, I imagine, sometimes follow their misguided advice, reasonably concluding that audiophiles are all fools.
Is all of that rather arrogant? I suppose it is. But like our never-ending disagreement over analog vs. digital, I take solace in knowing that I'm right. :)
Tim
StanleyB
18-01-2009, 13:27
I got two pairs of ears. One pair listens to the equipment, and the other listens to the music.
For some reason this reminds me of a party I went to many years ago. I told the DJ (a friend) to stop the music. Then I started ripping the wiring apart and putting it back together in a different order. Everyone thought I had gone mad, but once the first minute of the new wiring was heard, I was the toast of the party.
We can't all do that to anything other than our own equipment, but I am sure many of us have contemplated dong the same to the equipment of others. There is where the equipment ears comes into it.
Stan
I have those two sets of ears as well, Stan. The music-listening ears even allow me to listen to an iPod through a pair of earbuds and thoroughly enjoy the ride. And the equipment listening part is, at times, outraged. Why? Because I've heard your fine DAC and others in its range and wonder how those who sell $5,000 DACs can be anything but ashamed of themselves. Because I can look at the employee price of any item. In my case, that cost is 5% above the store's cost. I checked on a premium digital cable the other day. Retail? $149.99. So what was 5% above cost on that $149.99 cable? $11. To move on/off from one place to another...all cloth braid, gold plate and mark-up. And nowhere close to "premium," by audiophile standards. The $700 USB cable I read of recently? That seller should not be ashamed, he should be prosecuted.
Tim
Tim,
The brutal truth, Marco, is that I've always trusted my ears, it's other peoples' ears I doubt. I feel no need to run ABX tests to make my decisions, as I'm absolutely convinced that it all comes down to preference anyway.
Well, I'm astounded. Let me first of all say that despite what you might think to the contrary, I like you because you seem honest and upfront with your opinions and aren't afraid to speak your mind, and you do so in a way that isn't antagonistic - a veritable breath of fresh air compared to many 'objectivists' I've dealt with in the past. However, I have to say that what you've written above is arrogant beyond belief, indeed far more arrogant than what you've written in your last paragraph even though it might not initially seem so...
Why?
Because we've spent the last umpteen pages on this thread, not to mention months elsewhere on the forum, arguing about science and objectivity in hi-fi where you've played the role of the consummate measurements protagonist, and now after all this time comes the revelation that you're really nothing of the sort and that you just trust your ears the same as the rest of us? What was it - some sort of test to see who you were dealing with??
So where is the really arrogant bit then? Well, it is this, and I'm going to quote exactly what you've written again and highlight it, just so the message sinks in:
The brutal truth, Marco, is that I've always trusted my ears, it's other peoples' ears I doubt. I feel no need to run ABX tests to make my decisions, as I'm absolutely convinced that it all comes down to preference anyway.
Excuse me, but I'm going to be absolutely frank... What on earth makes you think that you're the only one who's blessed with this talent? It's the same for me, too, and plenty of others, I would imagine. What makes your ears so exceptionally unique, Tim? Don't you think that there are plenty of other people around able to do the very same thing, so why should they have to blind test everything and you don't? In short, just to make it crystal clear, why should everyone else have to be tested and what they hear scrutinised and not you??? You're advocating universal blind testing on one hand and considering yourself miraculously exempt on another. I'm sure you can see the problem!
It's perfectly normal of course to trust your own ears and no-one else's but in doing so you most certainly shouldn't automatically label others as "shiny-eyed audiophiles", or whatever other pet term you've dreamed up, who are nothing but deaf and hapless victims of psychological bias - that is insulting in the extreme!
What you do is give people the benefit of the doubt until they've proven otherwise - you know that innocent until proven guilty thing??
Anyway I'm not going to fall out with you over this, Tim, and hopefully you now realise that you're dealing with a different breed of people on here, and that I most certainly don't come under the category where you had me pigeonholed. AOS as an "audiophile community" (your words, not mine) is different from the norm in many respects, and I hope you realise that now.
Ok, now that nonsense is behind us our exchanges should be far less time consuming because I won't have to feel like I'm banging my head against a bloody brick wall!! :lol:
With that said, if I had a magic wand I would deem that the audiophile community believe in ABX testing and that a great ABX facility be created to test the audibility of every product on the market.
I understand where you're coming from and in that context I would agree because it would act as an excellent bullshit filter, and I mean in terms of removing hi-fi snake oil and a modicum of woolly thinking. However as long as at the end of day the genuine stuff people heard and believed was free from further scientific scrutiny and therefore not subject to the consequent disdain and rather demeaning interrogation by blinkered pseudo-scientists on audio forums! ;)
Because sadly, this wonderful hobby, created for the better enjoyment of one of the most beautiful art forms in all of human endeavor, appears to have more charlatans and fools per square inch than the desert has grains of sand.
I totally agree, and that's why we give short shrift to any charlatans we detect here, whilst at the same time supporting our valued dealers and manufacturers to the hilt.
It is my sense of justice that drives this particular conversation more than anything specific to audiophilia.
Like I said, I wish you'd told me before!
I see snake oil salesmen taking dear prices for illusions, from people who turn around and speak the highest and most imprecise praise for these illusions, on the internet, to the uninitiated who, I imagine, sometimes follow their misguided advice, reasonably concluding that audiophiles are all fools.
Now I agree with much of that but not the bit in bold because I have never believed in tarring people all with the same brush - I judge people how I find them as individuals and never make any assumptions until I'm provided with the necessary evidence. This is an approach I think you should perhaps consider in the future.
Is all of that rather arrogant? I suppose it is. But like our never-ending disagreement over analog vs. digital, I take solace in knowing that I'm right. :)
Like I said before, I don't really find that at all arrogant - it's merely being confident in your own hearing acuity, something that I myself possess in abundance.
Welcome to my world, Tim, and I suspect that of quite a few others here! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Marco, If you can read the post above and conclude that it is a revelation of something long-hidden, a mask removed; if you can read this sentence:
I see snake oil salesmen taking dear prices for illusions, from people who turn around and speak the highest and most imprecise praise for these illusions, on the internet, to the uninitiated who, I imagine, sometimes follow their misguided advice, reasonably concluding that audiophiles are all fools.
...and attribute it as my personal attitude, not an observation, a fear of what the unititiated might think; if you can read "all present company excepted" broken out into a paragraph of its own so it could not be missed and still conclude that I was attacking this community, I can only conclude that you are reading what I write, but perceiving what you want to believe of me instead of what is written. Regarding your core objection, the heart of your shocking revelation -- I have tried to tell you at least a dozen times that I am not the objectivist you paint me to be; we've discussed the fact that my preferred amp and phones are admittedly colored, but you seem to hear what suits you to hear and then when I put it very plainly you, act as if it is new information. It's not.
I can use my ears, trust them, and still believe there are things that good science can reveal that my perception may have missed, just as there seem to be many things in our conversations here that a simple understanding of English could reveal, but your perceptions seem to have missed.
Oh and you are suffering one more disconnect here between perception and reality: If you honestly think you can insult me as often as you have lately and as definitively as you did in that last post and not be interested in having a falling out...good lord man, can you see the world before you at all? For the sake of the board and my blood pressure, I intend to ignore your posts for awhile. Please return the favor.
Tim
Jeez... Yes very good, Tim. :mental:
I understood the majority of your earlier post only too well - but sometimes you have a rather overly complicated, almost cryptic, way of explaining yourself and the point you're trying to get across gets lost, particularly as I normally have to scan-read people's posts because with the amount of posts I have to answer in a day I just don't have the time to analyse every word written in detail.
However, I think it's you who is being rather blinkered in all of this and you who are not fully understanding how your endless and rather condescending attacking of "audiophiles" and their way of assessing and buying hi-fi, is coming across!
You've preached the testing and measurements mantra since you joined and have displayed little sign of showing respect for other people's methods, being on occasions extremely condescending in the process perhaps without even realising it. You insist on labelling others who don't conform to your hi-fi methodology in the most insulting terms and it's me who is the bad guy? You've already admitted to a communication deficiency on your part earlier in this thread, and you're doing the very same thing again.
I suggest that a period of introspection is in order and would advise that you take up my suggestion before posting further.
Here is something I wrote earlier which is a relevant example of what I'm referring to about how you often express yourself and something which you (obviously) see as acceptable:
It's perfectly normal of course to trust your own ears and no-one else's but in doing so you most certainly shouldn't automatically label others as "shiny-eyed audiophiles", or whatever other pet term you've dreamed up, who are nothing but deaf and hapless victims of psychological bias - that is insulting in the extreme!
Have a good read of that and let's hope the message sinks in, Tim.
Marco.
OK...one more time, for the sake of some sense of fairness. Let's just put "shiny-eyed audiophiles" in context, if you don't mind...
when people are claiming dramatic transformations from "recording" to "music" with a digital cable at the price of a good DAC (not a fiction), or promising clearly audible benefits from the reduction of artifacts that fall 20 db below a cd's noise floor (another real example), and when these solutions are being championed by shiny-eyed audiophiles with the most effusive poetry, a look at the numbers or a check for actual audibility is not a bad idea in my view. YMMV.
...is there anything there that infers that you or anyone on this board are one of the aforementioned shiny-eyed audiophiles? Has anyone here made the claims above or championed them here? Or are you saying that there are no over-zealous audiophiles, or that it is wrong of me to observe that there are? I hope I kept that short enough for your scan, Marco, but just in case, the answers to all questions are no. You are filling my words with your own meaning. You are re-casting me in an image that supports your point of view. Why, I can only guess and will not speculate because in my current mood it would undoubtedly be unkind.
Tim
I've made my point perfectly clearly, Tim. The fact is you insist on labelling people you don't know from Adam, who don't share your rigid methodology of assessing hi-fi equipment, in a most condescending and disrespectful way. It doesn't matter if they're members of this forum or not. That's not the point!
Would you refer to people that way face to face? - I suspect not; so don't do it here either. Learn to be respectful to people and don't judge them until you know them well enough.
You're also advocating universal blind testing on one hand and considering your own 'golden ears' miraculously exempt on another. I'm sure you can see the problem!
Now I'm not repeating myself again and going round and round in circles. The message is clear, so I suggest that you take your "current mood" somewhere else this evening (or whatever time of day it is where you are) and come back when you are in a better frame of mind.
Thank you in advance.
Marco.
sastusbulbas
18-01-2009, 21:43
I like a few beers while working late, I have two pairs of Cerwin Vega V152 speakers at work, 15" bass drivers, 103db sensitivity, system is nothing special, but I would like to improve it. Thing is though, some beers, some Pretzel sticks, some damm loud thumpin music...MUSIC!!!!
In the end it's that one thing that matters, blasting it out the telly via MTV is better than nothing, and usually more preferable to arguing about preferences and ideals which don't usually matter when you are enjoying something.
anthonyTD
18-01-2009, 21:56
I like a few beers while working late, I have two pairs of Cerwin Vega V152 speakers at work, 15" bass drivers, 103db sensitivity, system is nothing special, but I would like to improve it. Thing is though, some beers, some Pretzel sticks, some damm loud thumpin music...MUSIC!!!!
In the end it's that one thing that matters, blasting it out the telly via MTV is better than nothing, and usually more preferable to arguing about preferences and ideals which don't usually matter when you are enjoying something.
hi steve,
with 103db speakers, you would be amazed at what a 3watt single ended valve amp could do.
anthony,TD...
sastusbulbas
18-01-2009, 22:14
hi steve,
with 103db speakers, you would be amazed at what a 3watt single ended valve amp could do.
anthony,TD...
I am thinking of trying out Alesis Ra-500 bridged power amps in that system, 500w per channel.
One of the amps I used at home was a 100w PC Technics SU-MA10, it is quite nice, but bass was lacking authority in comparison to the Krell and Classe amps I also use.
The main issue is silent operation, cohesive even sound quality at high and low volume, bass performance, and it would be nice to use such an item in various systems with less sensitive speakers.
I like bass and percussion, so a little power and current capability is usually what seems to work for me with solid state amps. At the moment I am using Rogers Studio 1 speakers in a second system with a Classe CA-101 power amp, I was actually thinking of looking for a second one to utilise as a mono blocks for more power.
Indeed, Martin. Everyone 'connects' with music differently and so has different listening priorities. It's healthy as long as enjoying music is the ultimate goal; this is of course ultimately reflected in the size and diversity of your music collection.
Marco.
Marco, after reading most of the posts I'd say that's the point i.e. enjoying your music, the problem as I see it that many get the two confused.
Ali Tait
20-01-2009, 15:59
Well I've always said I was far more of a music lover than a hi fi nut.
Regarding the Cerwin-vegas,although they are very sensitive,what is the impedance curve like? Maybe that's why you feel the need for a lot of power to drive them.
Shuggz, I've started a new thread on this subject entitled: "Confronting your realities".
I'd appreciate your views (and anyone else's on this). Ali, you too, mate :)
Marco.
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