What pre-amp?

[Mike]

I'm looking for a pre-amp to try, as you might have guessed from the title! ;)

I've got some monobloc power amps that I'm convinced won't give their best until I drive them with a proper active preamp with gain. Rather than the numerous passive jobs that I already have. The 300B amp I have sounds fine with those but the 211 mono's just sound 'weak'!

I'm looking for something that won't break the bank, say a few hundred quid or so, and that I can sell on easily without losing too much if it doesn't work out.

Any suggestions?

[Mike]

For instance, I was thinking of something like this, maybe? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Croft-Epoch-Elite-Pre-Amp-VALVE-PREAMP-MM-PHONO-STAGE-BUILT-/251046735226?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item3a738d2d7a

[roob]

A touch more than your budget but well worth a look;)
http://www.chevronaudio.co.uk/html/preamplifier.htm
A real bargain imho, well I would say that as I have one:D

[Mike]

A touch more than your budget but well worth a look;)
http://www.chevronaudio.co.uk/html/preamplifier.htm
A real bargain imho, well I would say that as I have one:D

Thanks, Andy, but that looks like it's a buffer. I need some gain! :)

[Stratmangler]

Talk to Nick (Lurcher).

[roob]

Mike it's not a buffer.
Fully active with plenty of gain. Peter Stockwell of this parish got one and it ousted his much more expensive Naim 282/PSU combo which he then sold on and so was quids in.

[Mike]

Mike it's not a buffer.
Fully active with plenty of gain. Peter Stockwell of this parish got one and it ousted his much more expensive Naim 282/PSU combo which he then sold on and so was quids in.

Oh, right... I'll have a proper read! :doh:

Cheers...

[Mike]

Talk to Nick (Lurcher).

I just might well do that, Chris. I'm just trying to figure out which way to go ATM. Once I know exactly what I need I can move forward! (see the corporate speak there?) ;)

[Mike]

Quote:
Originally Posted by roob http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=323177#post323177)
Mike it's not a buffer.
Fully active with plenty of gain. Peter Stockwell of this parish got one and it ousted his much more expensive Naim 282/PSU combo which he then sold on and so was quids in.

Oh, right... I'll have a proper read! :doh:

Cheers...
__________________
Shian7
--------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but as much as I read that, averything tells me it's a buffer... What am I missing? :scratch:

[Marco]

Hi Mike,

I'm sure that Nick could build you something very nice indeed, but if you fancy something top-notch and 'off the shelf', for quickness, the Croft you linked to on eBay would be ideal or, probably what I'd recommend, a new Micro 25 Basic:

http://www.croftacoustics.co.uk/m25basic.html

Brand new all-valve, hard-wired preamp, with built-in MM phono stage, for £400 - you can't go wrong! In some ways, the Micro 25 sounds better than the Epoch.

Trust me, they're bloody good and, as the amp is a well recognised and desired brand, it'll retain its value, should you decide to punt it on later. Hey, the case alone is probably worth half of that amount, and with bags of space inside, just think how much 'tweakage' could be done! :eyebrows:

hifi dave is the man to speak to about the latter - you may even get a small AoS discount! :cool:

Marco.

[roob]

Quote:
Originally Posted by roob http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=323177#post323177)
Mike it's not a buffer.
Fully active with plenty of gain. Peter Stockwell of this parish got one and it ousted his much more expensive Naim 282/PSU combo which he then sold on and so was quids in.

Oh, right... I'll have a proper read! :doh:

Cheers...
__________________
Shian7
--------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but as much as I read that, averything tells me it's a buffer... What am I missing? :scratch:

I see what you mean, to be honest I don't know what the difference is between a pre amp and an active buffer stage can someone explain.

[Mike]

Hi Mike,

I'm sure that Nick could build you something very nice indeed, but if you fancy something top-notch and 'off the shelf', for quickness, the Croft you linked to on eBay would be ideal or, probably what I'd recommend, a new Micro 25 Basic:

http://www.croftacoustics.co.uk/m25basic.html

Brand new all-valve, hard-wired preamp, with built-in MM phono stage, for £400 - you can't go wrong! In some ways, the Micro 25 sounds better than the Epoch.

Trust me, they're bloody good and, as the amp is a well recognised and desired brand, it'll retain its value, should you decide to punt it on later. Hey, the case alone is probably worth half of that amount, and with bags of space inside, just think how much 'tweakage' could be done! :eyebrows:

hifi dave is the man to speak to about the latter - you may even get a small AoS discount! :cool:

Marco.

Yes, I've been tempted by one of those, I must admit. Don't need the phono stage though... ;)

The Epoch worries me a bit, that's only the second one I've seen for sale and it's been available quite a while now. The previous one took ages to sell too.
Then there's the "OCD Volume Control"! :rolleyes:

[Mike]

Ah-ha! I've just spotted a line only version exists.... only £300!!! :hmm:

[Marco]

Oh yes, sorry, I'd forgotten that you already had your own phono stage, otherwise the line-only version is what I'd have recommended - and, as you've stated, it's even cheaper! :)

You just can't go wrong with one, Mikey. Where else are you gonna get a brand new (UK made), hard-wired valve preamp of such quality, in a decent case like that, for £300?

Marco.

[Mike]

Free delivery too....

[Marco]

There's only one question left: what are you waiting for? :eyebrows:

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

For a lot less than the E-Bay Croft, you can get a line level Micro 25, delivered to your door.

Please feel free to PM.

[ninedecks]

I'm still learning while I go along, but would a Quad 44 Pre fit the bill?.
The reason for mentioning it is that one is for sale on another forum for £100.
Dave

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Mike

Now Marco has noted the Micro 25 being better than the Epoch.
With his experience of the Croft gear, the 25 is where I would be looking now.
It will also be an easy job to sell on when the time is right.
Not sure why I am posting this, you only live 2 miles away and I know your phone numbers :scratch:

Anyway that's my thoughts.

Andy - SDDW

[Marco]

Hi Andy,


Mike

Now Marco has noted the Micro 25 being better than the Epoch.

In *some* ways, not all. It's to do with the simplicity of the circuit (in the Micro 25), which to my ears, with Croft designs, is influential and sonically significant. Experience tells me that Glenn's best amps embody the K.I.S.S principle.

Your point about being able to move it on later easily, and without really losing much money, is valid. However, that may not happen, as the unit is pretty good as standard, and has the potential (especially for someone like Mike) to be made into something rather special, simply with a few judicious tweaks.

I have a few ideas, in that respect, based on experience.....

That done, the Croft, if Mike goes for it, might not be going anywhere! ;)

Marco.

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Marco

You have a good point there.
Once Mike gets his soldering Iron out, anything could happen.
The Croft designs are really very good. They punch well above their price tag.

Andy - SDDW

[Mike]

Hmmmm.... Do I really want the Basic, or should I aim a little higher? :hmm:

[Sand Dancin Donkey Walker]

Mike

You will need deeper pockets, how deep do they go :lol:

Andy - SDDW

[Mike]

They're getting shallower every day... the builders found more 'issues' with the roof today! :doh:

[Marco]

Hmmmm.... Do I really want the Basic, or should I aim a little higher? :hmm:

That's up to you, muchacho... Perhaps someone who knows the differences between the amps in the current Croft range, such as Dave, could outline the sonic advantages of the more expensive models?

A huge, high-quality, off-board PSU, is defo one of them :)

Marco.

P.S Just in case you fancy a cheap punt, with some 'loose change', just to get a taster of the Croft sound, Shane's selling his Micro 25 Basic on pfm (think he's also got it advertised on here): http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=117305

[DSJR]

What's the rule for a good sounding preamp?

Obviously it should have the gain needed to properly drive the power amp and secondly, it should be as transparent to the signal fed it as reasonably possible...

Now, It is my opinion currently that you could do this to a surprising extent with a couple of half decent FET opamps and a handful of passive components mainly in the feedback loop, and I mean a handful, so not affecting the signal path in any way. The Croft preamp circuit is so good though, that any very slight lack of refinement in the basic Micro 25 may be tuned out with careful valve choice and, since Glenn doesn't upgrade the 25 Basic, after some time to get used to it, I'm sure Mike could do some custom souping up of his own?

Me? I use both the above approaches and enjoy them very much. My old croft never EVER fails to put a smile on my face and I love it to bits, despite it not being fully up to date on the phono stage output impedance, the main mod I believe to the basic circuit over the years..

[Mike]

Perhaps the "R" then? :)

[hifi_dave]

You know it makes sense..:thumbsup:

[Mike]

Oi, stop it!... I'm trying yo be sensible. Sort of.

My head is telling that the Micro 25 would be the option to go for. But..... :eyebrows:

[Mike]

OK, now sorted, thanks! :)

[Marco]

So what did you "sort" then, dude? :)

Marco.

[Mike]

It's a secret! :ner:

[Marco]

Lol - it always is with you :D

Marco.

[Covenant]

What-a secret for all time or just to tease us for a little while?

[Mike]

Ok, Ok.... I've ordered a PCB for a grounded grid amp as "something to play with", and a Croft Micro 25R.

[Val33]

Don't let the roofers know, they'll be back to finish the job ;)

Val

[Mike]

Oh, they're long gone now. Last seen driving down the road with pockets stuffed with cash!

[Marco]

Ok, Ok.... I've ordered a PCB for a grounded grid amp as "something to play with", and a Croft Micro 25R.

Now *that* is what I call a result!! :yay: :respect:

Look forward to finding out what you think of the Crofty!

Marco.

[Mike]

Well it's all down to David Wren for a great deal on the Croft, and Athony Matthews for the "heads up" on the grounded grid amps!

Thanks guys! :thumbsup:

[Marco]

I love it when the AoS community comes together like that, for mutual gain :)

Marco.

[Covenant]

Mike, I will be very interested to read your comments on the 25R. Specifically what it brings in terms of sonic benefits. Don't forget to write a few lines when you have let it run in for a while.

[Mike]

Bah! Do I have to?.... I'm pretty crap at doing "reviews"! :D

[Jonboy]

Bah! Do I have to?.... I'm pretty crap at doing "reviews"! :D

You have to now you've gone croft ;)

[DSJR]

It's like all the Series 25 models, just a bit more refined over the standard model as that is over the basic :) The sonics are basically neutral, so you're not going to get drastic differences as you do with the overblown but beautifully cased popular US alternatives - I mean, ARC's Reference preamp is now in Series 5 SE guise. Just how wrong was the original (quite a lot it seems judging by the changes from one to other). You don't get this with a Croft methinks, unless it's a very old 'un like mine which hasn't had some of the modern touches applied. Mine's better than when I bought it and it didn't take much to lift it (removing some resistors! and fresh line valves did 90% of it)

[Covenant]

Bah! Do I have to?.... I'm pretty crap at doing "reviews"! :D

If you don't I will recommend you to HiFi Pig as a reviewer! :)

[jon1]

Perhaps the "R" then? :)




glad you got shorted mike



jon

[Ali Tait]

What's the GG pcb's mate?

[Mike]

What's the GG pcb's mate?

T'is this one... :)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bare-PCB-ref-Grounded-Grid-Pre-Amplifier-Amp-Stereo-/220710439255?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item33635e0957

[Ali Tait]

I heard one of the Transcendent TV's many moons ago. Thought it was pretty good, certainly worth a go I think.

[Mike]

Oooh... looks like both are on the way! :eek:

[Covenant]

Oooh... looks like both are on the way! :eek:

Nip to the shop then and get a new notepad and pen! :D

[Mike]

Nip to the shop then and get a new notepad and pen! :D

:finger:

[Mike]

The "R" has arrived, 17:00hrs on the dot! :)

:mex:

[Marco]

Oooh... Exciting stuff, mate! Can't wait to hear what you think :cool:

Marco.

[Mike]

I shall now take several excruciating hours to gradually open the box.... :eyebrows:

[hifi_dave]

Be sure to safely set to one side the leather bound instruction manual and the warranty registration certificate..:rolleyes:

[Mike]

Be sure to safely set to one side the leather bound instruction manual and the warranty registration certificate..:rolleyes: :D

I have 'unzipped' the first strip of sellotape!

[Ali Tait]

He's gone quiet. It must be good..

[Marco]

Hey, if it sounds really good, you might be 'unzipping' something else later! :eyebrows:

:lol:

Marco.

[Mike]

He's gone quiet. It must be good..

Busy buggering about with summat else atm.... it's just sitting on a table right now! ;)

[Mike]

Here it is...

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/7572/img0672u.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1213/img0673x.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5107/img0674bk.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6848/img0675u.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1939/img0678r.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/3043/img0676rz.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1758/img0679zw.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

Sounds good! :)

[anthonyTD]

Here it is...

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/7572/img0672u.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1213/img0673x.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5107/img0674bk.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6848/img0675u.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1939/img0678r.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/3043/img0676rz.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1758/img0679zw.jpg
By shian7 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/shian7) at 2012-05-16

Sounds good! :)
Very nicely made,
mostly point to point wiring as you would expect from Glenn, now go and listen to some music instead of buggering about!:eyebrows::)
A...

[walpurgis]

I'm looking for a pre-amp to try, as you might have guessed from the title! ;)

I've got some monobloc power amps that I'm convinced won't give their best until I drive them with a proper active preamp with gain. Rather than the numerous passive jobs that I already have. The 300B amp I have sounds fine with those but the 211 mono's just sound 'weak'!

I'm looking for something that won't break the bank, say a few hundred quid or so, and that I can sell on easily without losing too much if it doesn't work out.

Any suggestions?

Well, I made a surprising little find last year. I bought a little KingRex Pre-Amp just out of curiosity as I'd heard they were surprisingly good. I paid £100 for a mint used one (eBay). Anyway, the strange thing is it does not like woking with any of my solid state power amps, but really comes to life driving my Modern Classic Tubes EL34, Class A monoblocks. Its a great match. The KingRex is tiny and only about £200 new, very nicely made, line level inputs only. It might be worth your trying one. Geoff.

[DSJR]

Maybe high output impedance? So many solid state amps seem to have a low input impedance of 10 - 20K and, although this would need an engineer to confirm, I'm sure this is one reason why we hear differences that shouldn't be there?

[anthonyTD]

Maybe high output impedance? So many solid state amps seem to have a low input impedance of 10 - 20K and, although this would need an engineer to confirm, I'm sure this is one reason why we hear differences that shouldn't be there?
:)

[DSJR]

:) as in correct, or :) as in "this chap's a nutcase and totally wrong" ?

[anthonyTD]

:) as in correct, or :) as in "this chap's a nutcase and totally wrong" ?

I think your comments are correct Dave ie; high output impedance being the main culprit.:)
A...

[DSJR]

Bearing in mind the lack of a phono stage in this particular Croft, why the two transformers? I'm feeling cheated now, 'cos my Crofty pre has far more gubbins inside and only one piddly frame tranny :scratch: :beer:

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Croft4PPrecap1.jpg

[Macca]

I think it does have a phono stage Dave, the clue being the imput marked 'Phono' on the fascia...;)

[Marco]

Isn't the line-level Micro 25 Basic the only Croft preamp not to have a built-in phono stage? :)

Marco.

[overtsi]

There should be another 2 x ECC83 for the phono stage.It's a 25R case - hence the phono and three line input markings on the case and regulated power supply, but no phono stage.There would also be a ground plug to earth the cable from the turntable next to the phone inputs, but there is only a (tiny) blanking plug. Did you order a line only version of the 25R?

[Mike]

It's a 25R case - hence the phono and three line input markings on the case

Actually, I think it's just the case! ;)

As I understand it, all three levels of the Micro 25 are available with/without phono stage and all share the same case. Mine is a line level 25R as you correctly identified. :)

[Bluedroog]

Actually, I think it's just the case! ;)

As I understand it, all three levels of the Micro 25 are available with/without phono stage and all share the same case. Mine is a line level 25R as you correctly identified. :)

Correct.

[hoopsontoast]

Does Glenn do a higher Gain MC version with the Micro Basic?

[DSJR]

Glenn doesn't do a moving coil anything now, sadly, and has genuine reasons for not doing so. Better to use a decent SUT optimised to the cartridge used.