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Mikeoz
05-05-2012, 12:15
Hi interested to hear views on my speaker setup and any advice on the layout in my listening room. Just moved into a new house with a large L-shaped lounge. The 'square' is 19'x 18'. The speakers fire towards the long 30' wall.

Problem is with the bass. The system is ARC/ Krell CD and amp with Proac D28 speakers currently placed 28' for the back wall and 48' from the side walls.

I started out a full metre away from the back wall but the bass was pants to be honest. Now I've moved them closer there has been an improvement but on some tracks its still lacking. I mainly listen to Rock so this is a problem. On occasion there seems to be some boom but overall it's lightweight. I don't want to move too close to the back wall as the overall sound quality is of prime importance - which has improved incidentally from my old 15x13 room.

Looking to upgrade speakers soon - but is a 'square' room an issue in itself ? I'm worried Ill splash out on bigger speakers that wont work due to the listening environment.

Cheers, Mike

DSJR
05-05-2012, 12:42
Modern Pro-Acs can suffer a boomy bass and a dipped midrange with sparkly treble, so you're in for trouble before you start IMO. ARC CD players seemed to sacrifice bass accuracy and precision at the alter of an "organic" sounding midrange (you can't alter one aspect without it affecting another IMO and so many products out there prove this).

My recommendation to start with is to try the speakers across a corner rather than along a wall, and see how you go from there. Hope it helps a bit before you start wholesale changes.....

Ali Tait
05-05-2012, 13:04
It may be down to room nodes. Try changing your listening position and see where that gets you.

vouk
06-05-2012, 06:19
These links might be of some use:

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=32&pagestring=Room+Setup+7

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=33&pagestring=Room+Setup+8

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=faqs&content_id=7&pagestring=Listening+Room+Design

http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/index_e.html

The last one is quite useful - with further info on speaker placement (links at end of page). The Proac's should be much more flexible than the AP in near/wall placement.
Hope this helps!:cool:

Mikeoz
06-05-2012, 07:32
Thanks for the response guys. Dave I take it youre not a huge Proac fan :) although I do think there's a tendancy for these speakers to boom. I am planning to upgrade in due course and was thinking Wilson Sophia. Will read the links in the meantime as I want to get the sound as good as possible in the meantime.

vouk
06-05-2012, 08:14
Not so sure whether the Wilsons would fit the bill. They are a little fussy when it comes to placement - they need a lot a room to breathe. I helped a friend set them up once (incidentally with ARC equipment) and he ended about 1.6 meters from back wall, 75 cm from side walls and with a slight toe-in- and we still felt that the bass was just a tad too pronounced. He moved on to Kharma speakers which he found to be quite tolerant of near(er) wall placement.

Ali Tait
06-05-2012, 09:32
I find OB's are generally far more immune to room effects than box speakers.

Mikeoz
06-05-2012, 11:55
Not so sure whether the Wilsons would fit the bill. They are a little fussy when it comes to placement - they need a lot a room to breathe. I helped a friend set them up once (incidentally with ARC equipment) and he ended about 1.6 meters from back wall, 75 cm from side walls and with a slight toe-in- and we still felt that the bass was just a tad too pronounced. He moved on to Kharma speakers which he found to be quite tolerant of near(er) wall placement.

Thanks for that I have a gut feeling they won't work in this room and have heard others suggest they need a lot of space. If I take that route will def need a home try out before I splash cash. As an aside I heard Kevs (of this parish) proac carbon pro 8 recently and they were awesome - its another option but getting a bit out of my price range...

Mikeoz
06-05-2012, 13:23
These links might be of some use:

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=32&pagestring=Room+Setup+7

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=33&pagestring=Room+Setup+8

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=faqs&content_id=7&pagestring=Listening+Room+Design

http://www.audiophysic.de/aufstellung/index_e.html

The last one is quite useful - with further info on speaker placement (links at end of page). The Proac's should be much more flexible than the AP in near/wall placement.
Hope this helps!:cool:

Interesting read. I've broadly applied the 1.6:1 ratio for the horizontal room outlined in the first link. However they go on to say this ratio should be reversed for a square room. I may give this a try but moving the speakers into the room will surely soften the bass further ? I struggle to follow the logic for this suggestion as I've always believed you need to stay away from side walls. Worth experimenting though.

Macca
06-05-2012, 14:11
Your old room was also almost square but a lot, lot smaller. your new room is not really a square at all as it has a long section. You should get subjectively heavier bass although worse quality in a small square.

I'm wondering if the lack of bass you have in the new room is just down to the sheer size of the room? I'm not familiar with Proac speakers btw but is it that they are simply not giving enough LF to drive the space?

Otherwise can you rejig the whole thing to have the speakers firing down the long 30' axis? That is what I do and I have no problems with obtaining even, good quality bass performance.

vouk
06-05-2012, 14:21
Interesting read. I've broadly applied the 1.6:1 ratio for the horizontal room outlined in the first link. However they go on to say this ratio should be reversed for a square room. I may give this a try but moving the speakers into the room will surely soften the bass further ? I struggle to follow the logic for this suggestion as I've always believed you need to stay away from side walls. Worth experimenting though.

I'm a bit confused with that as well; most speaker companies I've used in the past (Chario, SF and Triangle) emphasize the necessity of staying well clear of side walls - distance from back walls seems much less critical. I guess different ideas and principles might apply according to different speakers. Definitely worth experimenting; that should be the fun part, right?:)

Mikeoz
06-05-2012, 14:37
The Proacs have a 6.5 inch woofer and a downward firing port. I spoke to one of the technical guys at Proac and he thought I was pushing it in a 45 square metre room. Whats really frustrating is there is a clear improvement in sound quality - but the lowest frequencies have all but disappeared on certain tracks. I definitely experienced some bass boom in the old room - but it now feels like something is missing.

Firing down the length unfortunately won't work due to furniture etc. I'll try the speakers in both 'positions' but may just have to bite the bullet on speakers with bigger woofers.

Macca
06-05-2012, 14:48
The Proacs have a 6.5 inch woofer and a downward firing port. I spoke to one of the technical guys at Proac and he thought I was pushing it in a 45 square metre room. .

Pushing it definately especially if you likes yer bass. Subs with the exisiting speakers would be an option. However you have got the opportunity with the new room to have some seriously large speakers working well and that is what I would do - it's not like your amp will struggle to drive any of the options :lol:

Clive
06-05-2012, 15:44
The Proacs have a 6.5 inch woofer and a downward firing port. I spoke to one of the technical guys at Proac and he thought I was pushing it in a 45 square metre room.
A 6.5 inch driver cannot move much air, not unless it has an almost impossible excursion of about 6 inches! A room the size you have may well have it's room modes well away from the troublesome areas. Big speakers or subs sound like a good idea.

Reid Malenfant
06-05-2012, 15:56
I'm using a couple of 12" & a sub with a 14" driver in a room area of 16M^2...

I'm not surprised you aren't getting any deep bass, time to look for new speakers or add a decent sub (or two) as has been suggested :)

Clive
06-05-2012, 16:01
I have 4 x 15" in a room 15' x 18" but as they a dipoles this lessens thgeir effect. I have prodigous bass anyway!

Reid Malenfant
06-05-2012, 16:07
I have prodigous bass anyway!
So do I after salad for tea :eyebrows:

Clive
06-05-2012, 16:53
So do I after salad for tea :eyebrows:
I read today that such bass probably helped to see off the dinosaurs! I hope you do better. :eek:

Mikeoz
06-05-2012, 17:17
So a single 10' or twin 8' woofers shouldn't be too much for my room :)

Reid Malenfant
06-05-2012, 17:22
In no way I could imagine ;) Actually a 12" is equivalent to 2 x 8"...

Macca
06-05-2012, 17:32
In no way I could imagine ;) Actually a 12" is equivalent to 2 x 8"...

Are you sure? I seem to recall working this out (pi R squared and all that) and a 12'' cone has a larger surface area, not by a huge amount though.

In fact I have a calc here - for 12'' - 6x6x3.14 = 113.04

for 8'' 4x4x3.14 = 50.24 x 2 = 100.48

I need a lie down after that...

Reid Malenfant
06-05-2012, 17:34
:eyebrows: You need to take into account the diaphram area & not the basket size. The diaphram would be the cone & half of the suspension on each side of it.

Macca
06-05-2012, 17:39
Not sure I follow you there Mark? I'm talking about radiating area i.e the actual cone size. 2x8'' cones have less surface area than 1x12'' I don't see how it can be otherwise - except I am sure you are now going to tell me...:eyebrows:

Clive
06-05-2012, 17:45
Mike you should be looking at 1x 12 or 2 x 15 for starters.

Reid Malenfant
06-05-2012, 17:53
:lol:A pair of 8" given that the cone edge is the same distance from the chassis edge as a 12" will indeed have a slightly smaller radiating area, but only just.

As an example the average diameter of an 8" cone is about 6.5" taking into account half of the suspension on each side of the cone ;)

So 33.16"^2 or if you like 213.97cm^2, so two would be 66.32"^2 or 427.94cm^2.

A 12" will likely be 10.5" in diameter = 86.54"^2 or 558.36cm^2.

But this all depends on how close the outer suspension is to the edge of the basket, the actual basket size & the width of the outer suspension...


Then you need to factor in the linear voice coil movement to decide who the daddy is in the air movement stakes :cool:


E2A:- At the end of the day it's not about SD (size of diaphram) but it's about VD (:lol:), volume displacement :)

Mikeoz
06-05-2012, 20:20
Mike you should be looking at 1x 12 or 2 x 15 for starters.

Don't want to over do it :D. The Sophia has a 10' bass driver and the carbon pros I heard recently were 2 x 8 - and they were impressive (although in a much smaller room)

Macca
06-05-2012, 20:56
:lol:A pair of 8" given that the cone edge is the same distance from the chassis edge as a 12" will indeed have a slightly smaller radiating area, but only just.

As an example the average diameter of an 8" cone is about 6.5" taking into account half of the suspension on each side of the cone ;)

So 33.16"^2 or if you like 213.97cm^2, so two would be 66.32"^2 or 427.94cm^2.

A 12" will likely be 10.5" in diameter = 86.54"^2 or 558.36cm^2.

But this all depends on how close the outer suspension is to the edge of the basket, the actual basket size & the width of the outer suspension...


Then you need to factor in the linear voice coil movement to decide who the daddy is in the air movement stakes :cool:


E2A:- At the end of the day it's not about SD (size of diaphram) but it's about VD (:lol:), volume displacement :)

:) Okay if you are going to bring other factors into play then what about distortion? A 12'' will give less distortion than 2x8'' and that is something you can hear. For bass duties I think 15'' is really the minimum required.

Macca
06-05-2012, 21:03
Don't want to over do it :D. The Sophia has a 10' bass driver and the carbon pros I heard recently were 2 x 8 - and they were impressive (although in a much smaller room)

I agree don't over do it and try them in your room before you buy if at all possible.

Reid Malenfant
06-05-2012, 21:09
:) Okay if you are going to bring other factors into play then what about distortion? A 12'' will give less distortion than 2x8'' and that is something you can hear. For bass duties I think 15'' is really the minimum required.
Martin, it depends on how far the linear excursion goes before a certain amount of BL drop off (BL is the relationship between coil length & magnetic field strength) . It's nothing to do with size ;)

Distortion increases as the BL drops, so as long as the excursion is "linear" & the coil is inside of the magnetic field & doesn't drop by more than say 5% then the distortion will be low.

A typical bass driver has a linear excursion of +/- 4mm, if it goes beyond that the BL drops & it can't respond to a sine wave as the magnetic field is no longer as strong - so it doesn't move accurately.

There are drivers out there with far more linear excursion than the usual. I have a few 10" here which are linear to +/- 12.5mm. That will do cleaner bass to the same depth as a typical 15" with +/-4mm excursion.

As I say, it's bugger all to do with how big the driver is, it's everything to do with volume displacement & linear excursion ;)

Macca
06-05-2012, 21:13
.
There are drivers out there with far more linear excursion than the usual. I have a few 10" here which are linear to +/- 12.5mm. That will do cleaner bass to the same depth as a typical 15" with +/-4mm excursion.

As I say, it's bugger all to do with how big the driver is, it's everything to do with volume displacement & linear excursion ;)

Okay cheers dude that is food for thought :eyebrows:

Reid Malenfant
06-05-2012, 21:16
One thing you generally can't get away from though... The bigger drivers tend to be more efficient, so on that score they win :D

synsei
07-05-2012, 08:08
And here endeth the math lesson. You lost me at +/- :lol:

Mikeoz
26-05-2012, 09:10
Quick update - I ve got some Proac D40R on loan which have 2x 6 inch woofers. They sound good - but the bass it's still very lightweight if you place them away from the front wall. If you move them closer you can generate the right levels of bass but only to within about 5 or 6 feet of them - which is bang in the middle of the room :doh:

So I think the suggestion that I need 10 or 12 inch drivers is correct. I guess Proac build speakers for medium sized rooms...

Clive
26-05-2012, 09:17
Quick update - I ve got some Proac D40R on loan which have 2x 6 inch woofers. They sound good - but the bass it's still very lightweight if you place them away from the front wall. If you move them closer you can generate the right levels of bass but only to within about 5 or 6 feet of them - which is bang in the middle of the room :doh:

So I think the suggestion that I need 10 or 12 inch drivers is correct. I guess Proac build speakers for medium sized rooms...
Yup, it's mostly about moving all the air in the room. 10 to 15 inch I reckon.

Macca
26-05-2012, 09:48
Big KEFs, B&Ws or Celestions, all voiced for large rooms, or if you have the cash, Tannoys. There are probably a lot more obscure types that would work too but all of the above can be obtained at reasonable prices 2nd hand.

Mikeoz
26-05-2012, 12:08
Thanks - I also recently borrowed a Velodyne SPL1000 sub and was able to create the lower frequencies that have gone awol but found it impossible to integrate properly. I will have a look at those suggestions.

Mikeoz
30-05-2012, 07:57
Thanks eveybody for your valuable input - I heard a pair of Wilson Sophia 2 at the weekend and pick them up on Thursday :D