View Full Version : It's great to be 'famous'!!
Check this out, for a giggle: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache:Zf-lsJLIsCYJ:http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinyl80.html%2Bmike%2Bnew%2Bcomposite%2Bplatter&gbv=2&gs_l=hp.3...5313.12063.0.12844.26.13.0.12.0.0.375. 2391.2-4j4.8.0...0.0.EeT-3MotGIE&ct=clnk
Does anyone remember my previous encounter with Marc? It was certainly 'entertaining', although despite what he's learned since then, it still doesn't appear that he's grasped what the whole purpose is of extensively modifying an SL-1200/1210, if he thinks you can get there simply by buying a P9! :doh:
Your thoughts please, gentleman, on Marc's (continued) somewhat misguided ramblings?
Marco.
Stratmangler
03-05-2012, 22:20
Does it really matter what he thinks?
Probably not.
Does he think that his shit don't stink?
Comes across that way :eyebrows:
Indeed... I just thought it was rather amusing how someone could continue to so spectacularly miss the point!
Marco.
Link to the original thread please?
It all comes down to the fact that there are two types of audiophiles. One group wants to tweak and modify until the cows come home. They're constantly scouring the Internet for tips from other tweakers. The other group, however, wants to buy something that works right out of the box. They want quality, durability and performance. You just have to decide which group you belong to.
Think about these approaches as it relates to the automobile industry. Would you rather own a Hyundai Excel that has been tuned to the hilt using $20,000 worth of parts from a dozen different companies from all over the world? Or would you rather just own a Porsche Cayman S? I'll take the Porsche... and the P9, please.
I might not necessarily agree with him 100%, but he does have a point... :cool:
Not really, as a P9 will never sound like a modded Techy, or vice versa! :doh:
The point is NO other T/T in the world sounds like an SL-1210, modified in the way, say, mine or Martin's has been done, or Andrew's - it's unique. You either love it or you don't, but it *is* unique! Therefore, it you want that particular brand of uniqueness, there is simply no other way of obtaining it - and there's no arguing that fact.
Furthermore, he fails to realise that if your ears cannot tolerate what low and medium-mass belt-drive T/Ts do so fundamentally wrong, then why would a P9 (or any turntable of that ilk) ever cut it in preference to a high-quality direct-drive T/T, which has a totally different way of presenting music? If you like what *that* does, then NOTHING ELSE will do.
That's my whole point, Dave, and it's one that Marc patently fails to grasp... :rolleyes:
Marco.
I think the point is better encapsulated in the first paragraph Marco, and besides, everyone is entitled to their point of view even if it may differ from our own. surely? From what I've read he's as passionate about Rega's as we are for 1210's so who are we to argue? He obviously prefers the sound of a BDTT so no amount of bitching on our part is going to change his mind... ;)
I'm not saying that he's not entitled to his views, of course he is, but rather that he's completely missing the point about the whole purpose of heavily modifying an SL-1200/1210.
That much is blatantly obvious.
Marco.
The thing is Marco there are always going to be people who don't get the point. Marc is honest enough to admit that he's not heard your rig and was even willing to admit it might sound like the dogs danglies. Although his article isn't entirely free of judgemental comments, on the whole he makes his point well from his perspective, and I suspect many would share his reservations. From speaking to me on the phone you know I have my doubts about lavishing thousands of pounds on my SL. That doesn't mean I'm not a fan of the Techie sound it's just that I'd rather buy a product that was fully formed from the outset, if you get my meaning? Like a good many I suspect, I don't possess the skills or confidence to perform the majority of mods available for this deck therefore by definition, rather than upgrade via mods I cannot fit myself it would be safer to go out and buy a fully formed product, that way I'm not risking fucking up the one I have.
EDIT: I am mixing up my personal circumstances with my commentary on Marc's article and I apologise for that. I shall expand on my own circumstances in a little while. I'm not saying either of you are right or wrong, just that you are both espousing opinions which originate from different sides of the same coin :)
Sure, Dave, I get that, but you don't know the history with this guy. He was as blinkered as they come, and has only softened his stance slightly, after being suitably 'educated' from the last time we crossed swords!
If someone can find a link to the original thread, you'll understand more where I'm coming from :)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
03-05-2012, 23:39
If someone can find a link to the original thread, you'll get more where I'm coming from :)
This one?
Marc Phillips of the Anti-Direct Drive League: Does he know his stuff or is he BS? (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9681)
.
Audioman
03-05-2012, 23:39
I think Marc's good point is questioning spending so much in moding a product rather than buying a better designed TT in the first place. Where he is wrong is that a viable alternative to Marco's set up is unlilkely to be a Rega P9. My only brief exposure to this TT at shows suggests it's more a highly refined P3 rather than something that competes with high end TT's.
That's the one, dude. I knew that I could rely on you to find it! ;)
Those who missed it the first time around, like Dave, should read that thread to the end, which will then give a better perspective on the comments I've made here.
Marco.
My only brief exposure to this TT at shows suggests it's more a highly refined P3 rather than something that competes with high end TT's.
Just to be absolutely clear, specifically which T/T are you talking about, Paul?
Marco.
Let me explain the Techie mod path from my own perspective... ;)
I suffer from extremely restricted movement due to a chronic back injury. This affliction is ever present but it waxes and wanes in intensity over periods of time. This affects everything I do to such an extent that it is very difficult for me to plan ahead, also not having a car now has robbed me of all my mobility too. Public transport is a total no-no because I cannot walk more than a few yards on a good day and I can't walk at all on a bad one. What little ability I do have to work on my TT's is totally governed by the length of time I can sit comfortably on a chair (this varies). Consequently, me spending hours with a soldering iron doing mods is never going to happen. I even had to get someone to come fit the SME to my Techie because I couldn't cope with the work. Incidentally this is the sort of thing that I would have thoroughly put my back into (excuse the pun :D ) before I had my accident, so to be brutally honest I am a victim of circumstance. Taking the above into consideration it is highly unlikely I am ever going to be able to perform some of the wonderful mods contained within these forum pages other than the very basic ones (platters, feet, mats and such like).
Truth be told regarding my Techie, apart from a few small upgrades this is probably as good as it is ever going to get unless I win the lottery, in which case the Techie will be out of here to be replaced by an Inspire Monarch. This will give me piece of mind (it will come with a warranty), and a very smart looking TT complete with many of the SL's little foibles already ironed out, and that my friend is my preferred way of doing things based on my circumstances. Of course, most of that last paragraph is a pipe dream :lol:
Due to my circumstances the most efficient hifi solution for me would be to go totally digital. I listen to stuff on Spotify 90% of the time anyway. I am not averse to paying for good quality digital downloads and I if I want CD's I order them online, so it could be argued that going analogue is detrimental to my lifestyle. On that basis I will need to give this some serious thought... :scratch:
Sure, Dave, I get that, but you don't know the history with this guy. He was as blinkered as they come, and has only softened his stance slightly, after being suitably 'educated' from the last time we crossed swords!
If someone can find a link to the original thread, you'll understand more where I'm coming from
Marco.
Fair enough Marco, I'll read the thread in a mo ;)
Lol - no worries. I can't dispute anything you've written in your previous post, other than that, to me, the Inspire looks like a pile of shit :eyebrows:
No doubt it's a very good T/T, though. It just does nothing for me, aesthetically, and I don't like the guy's morals who designed it.
Marco.
Okey dokey I get the picture now :lol:
Marc was a bit of a silly billy sounding off immediately like that. Perhaps he became embarrassed which might help to explain his, shall we say, robust comments... :D
Lol - no worries. I can't dispute anything you've written in your previous post, other than that, to me, the Inspire looks like a pile of shit
No doubt it's a very good T/T, though. It just does nothing for me, aesthetically, and I don't like the guy's morals, who designed it.
Marco.
Bear in mind Marco, it's not that I wouldn't wish to try out the mods, I just can't... :eyebrows:
Sonority
04-05-2012, 07:55
While he does make a 'point' it also belies his enormous lack of understanding here.
His analogy of a Hyundai +$20k of parts or a Porche Cayman s is also way off of the mark further proving his non understanding of the point.
Now if he had said take a Porche and add $20k of bits he would be a lot closer to the 'point' in my view :-)
After all - the 1200 does have one of the best 'engines' out there for stability and responds very well to tweaking with better bits I'm led to believe. ;)
Sure, Dave, I get that, but you don't know the history with this guy. He was as blinkered as they come, and has only softened his stance slightly, after being suitably 'educated' from the last time we crossed swords!
If someone can find a link to the original thread, you'll understand more where I'm coming from :)
Marco.
Think everyone has a bit of history here and there, sometimes best just not to drag past stuff into the present I find.
Like a lot of areas of this hobby, different ways to achieve the same goal I guess?
We all feel strong about "our" way :)
Its just someone else's opinion man. :)
The P9 may come across as a souped up P3 concept, but it IS a great and highly valid top end turntable, even if it doesn't float Techie owner's boats. That expensive ceramic platter wasn't done for show you know...
I just looked at the link to the origianl thread - WHERE do direct dives vibrate? The thing is, they don't! There may be an issue with the rapid servo regulator supply frequency/jitter? in the techie? but all these tweaks probably get rid of it at a stroke, and the Funk platter has answered any questions of the heavy platter changing things in the way the motor works.
Dynamic wow on belt driven decks is a HUGE issue for some. My way of dealing with it is to recommend a low tracking weight cartridge if possible, so the drive isn't loaded up too much. I know this doesn't solve the problem, but it certainly helps.
Too many blinkered idiots in audiophoolery, and if it takes one to know one, then so be it :lol: Never say never in anything - leaves you a get-out clause......
Its just someone else's opinion man. :)
That is it in a nutshell... ;)
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, even when they're wrong :) .
Regarding the Rega's running fast...
I still have and use the Linn strobe/alignment protractor. This uses a hand held battery operated light at 300Hz frequency and I found it invaluable in getting LP12's to proper speed (having a little technique for getting playing, rather than static speed absolutely spot-on), making LP and CD comparisons a doddle, but that's another story. I can say without any prejudice that ALL Rega 2's and 3's up until the P3 in 2000 or thereabouts, ran slightly fast AND THIS WAS AUDIBLE as well as clearly measurable. Roy Gandy dismissed it out of hand at the time, but I'm sure I'm correct when I say that the fixed-motor upgrade they introduced, with fresh pulley stuck to the motor spindle, seemed to bring the speed accuracy into line. haven't played with the new ones, but I'm sure the above is history now..
I only mention this as my findings are easily proved with the correct accurate strobe and a collection of LP's and partnering CD's. Until 2000 or therabouts, no doubt of it.....
Your thoughts please, gentleman, on Marc's (continued) somewhat misguided ramblings?
Marco.
IMHO (and in terms of what I have experienced), I feel that SL1200 modded or un-modded represents great value. Its a real shame that production has stopped, since the SL1200 offers the end-user plenty of choice, and they can take it to whatever level their interest or budget allows.
(In stock form, I think you just need to choose your cartridge very carefully, since it can be a bit hit-and-miss.)
I suppose Marco's SL1200, and some others on this forum represent the pinnacle of what can be done with a SL1200. I still think when the costs are added up they still represent great vfm, or SPPV in AoS-lingo.
My own SL1200 (Sa750d, TS-STD-PSU, MN bearing, Kontra-B, LH-6000) is probably very much "middle of the road" in AoS terms. But last year having attended a hifi show, and listened to some mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs, I came to the conclusion that I am not really missing all that much from my own setup.
I also own a (1987)LP12/Hercules/RB1000, so I am not really tied to any particular camp. At the end of the day, we only need to please ourselves. (Also if you price up a brand new LP12 to a decent spec level, the cost is pretty astronomical!!! You would be able to have carte-blanche in terms of similar budget if deployed towards a high-spec SL1200.)
But yes, based on my limited experience the SL1200, can definitely punch above its weight at whatever level you spec it out to.
Summary I find myself in agreement with Marco, much more than Marc..
:)
EDIT: i don't really agree with the need to argue absolutes, if you prefer a Linn, Rega, Technics, Thorens, whatever that's all fine. So long as you are happy yourself at the end of the day, and are able to enjoy the music.
It does seem the bloke has lived with these decks rega/technics for a fair while so at least he has real world experience of his likes/dislikes.
Audioman
04-05-2012, 09:12
Just to be absolutely clear, specifically which T/T are you talking about, Paul?
Marco.
Rega P9 ! I will expand on that in saying it is a good package at it's price point and has the advantage of being as near to plug and play a top end TT can be. It still has the Rega house sound and for similar money I think others are far better to my ears such as a Mitchel Orbe or possibly a modified Techie with the same money lavished on it. I think you have to be looking at something more upmarket in making comparisons either positive or negative against your particular deck. I'm sure Marc's main point is that he would rather have something good of the shelf than spend vast amounts on mods a point which many of us would agree with. His anti Technics comments appear to be based on the standard deck or a more lightly modified version which would cover the versions offered by KAB, Sound Hi-Fi and Zu.
Some of you guys are still continuing to miss the point. Whether Marc loves Regas, Michells or Fischer Price turntables, is moot – I really don’t care. Yes, he’s entitled to his opinion, but that’s not the point either... :rolleyes:
The point (and let’s hope it sinks in this time) is that in this argument the concept of 'just buying a proper high-end turntable in the first place' is fallacious, simply because doing that will NOT result in one ending up with the SAME thing!
Marc uses this analogy:
Would you rather own a Hyundai Excel that has been tuned to the hilt using $20,000 worth of parts from a dozen different companies from all over the world? Or would you rather just own a Porsche Cayman S? I'll take the Porsche... and the P9, please.
Ok, what if instead you wanted (and indeed owned) a very rare sports car, that for you had something unique and special, and that car was only made in tiny quantities, such as, for example, the Lamborghini Walter Wolf Countach, of which only three were made – and only one of those cars, for you, would do?
In that situation, would you be satisfied instead with a Porsche Cayman S, or indeed ANY other car?? No, of course you wouldn’t! And that’s my whole point...
A Technics SL-1210 turntable, modified in a unique way, with bespoke components, is my (and others) Lamborghini Walter Wolf Countach. For those interested, here's the chap in question:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6491/lamborghiniwalterwolfco.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/lamborghiniwalterwolfco.jpg/)
Therefore, just like a Porsche Cayman S would never satisfy the Lamborghini aficionado, neither would a P9 (or any belt-drive turntable) satisfy the bespoke modified SL-1210 aficionado (and also someone whose ears are attuned to the specific way that direct-drive T/Ts present music). That last bit is very important! How many brand new 'off the shelf' high-end D/D T/Ts are there to chose from currently - and how much do they cost in comparison to a modded Techy?? Think about it.
Thus one cannot simply 'just buy a proper high-end turntable in the first place', simply because there is nothing else out there available 'off the shelf', like a bespoke modified SL-1210, so doing what Marc suggests would not result in giving modified SL-1210 aficionados what they wanted!
The point of this exercise was not to "bitch" about Marc’s legitimate and justified turntable preferences, but rather to expose the fallaciousness of his car analogy, in reference to highly modifying a Technics direct-drive turntable.
Are we getting it now, chaps? :)
Marco.
Dynamic wow on belt driven decks is a HUGE issue for some.
Count me in, with bells on!!
I can hear it straight away (and its effect on music reproduced) every time I listen to low or medium-mass belt-drive T/Ts, including Regas.
Direct-drive T/Ts are by no means perfect (after all, all T/Ts are a compromise of some sort), *but* the effect on music of dynamic wow is completely absent - and *that* aspect of music reproduction is extremely important to me, and why I could not live with any T/T which exhibited the former trait.
Couple that with my love for SPUs, which track at 4g, and you can see why, for me, only T/Ts with sufficient 'balls' (D/Ds, idlers or high-mass string drives), to overcome the effect of dynamic wow, would ever cut it.
This is also a point that Marc completely misses, as 95% of what I suspect he'd consider as being 'proper high-end T/Ts', are low or medium-mass belt-drives! :rolleyes:
Too many blinkered idiots in audiophoolery.
Indeed!
Marco.
Whoa nice lambo!
It didn't really come across that way Marco to be honest mate, hence the replies you got.
Its not that we didn't get it ;) it was just a bit open ended and ambigious what you were meaning? :)
You cleared it up though just there. Cool. :cool:
PS This is coming from an ex Planar 3 owner!
My own SL1200 (Sa750d, TS-STD-PSU, MN bearing, Kontra-B, LH-6000) is probably very much "middle of the road" in AoS terms. But last year having attended a hifi show, and listened to some mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs, I came to the conclusion that I am not really missing all that much from my own setup.
That's interesting, Rav... May I ask what "mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs" you compared it with?
(Also if you price up a brand new LP12 to a decent spec level, the cost is pretty astronomical!!! You would be able to have carte-blanche in terms of similar budget if deployed towards a high-spec SL1200.)
That's a very good point indeed, and one some should think about very carefully! ;)
Marco.
It didn't really come across that way Marco to be honest mate, hence the replies you got.
Its not that we didn't get it.. it was just a bit open ended and ambigious what you were meaning? :)
You cleared it up though just there. Cool.
Excellent! For a while there it was feeling like a severe case of :brickwall::brickwall:
:D
Marco.
Audioman
04-05-2012, 10:42
That's interesting, Rav... May I ask what "mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs" you compared it with?
That's a very good point indeed, and one some should think about very carefully! ;)
Marco.
RAV makes an interesting point. I have often come away from shows with the same feeling re TT's I have heard in megabuck systems. However this is obviously not exclusive to owning a modified Technics.
Using the latest modded up LP12 as a price v quality comparison is a little extreme to say the least. These have got to be the most overpriced mods ever dreamed up, reinforcing the impression I have always had of Linn for profit maximisation based on taking advantage of those who blindly buy into their philosophy. It puts the LP12 in competition with some seriously good and better thought out ground up designs. So basicaly irrespective of the SQ improvements it's pretty easy to come up with something that is better value.
Hi Paul,
Rega P9 ! I will expand on that in saying it is a good package at it's price point and has the advantage of being as near to plug and play a top end TT can be. It still has the Rega house sound and for similar money I think others are far better to my ears such as a Mitchel Orbe or possibly a modified Techie with the same money lavished on it.
Just before I sold my soul to the devil, and went all 'direct-drivey', I auditioned both the P7 and P9, at a dealer, taking my (then) heavily-modded P5 (with Funk Firm AchroPLAT, stripped, polished, and Cardas-rewired RB700 and Rega T/T PSU) along as a reference. I also had a custom-made solid brass counterweight balance (made by Thrunobulaxx, who used to post here), fitted to the RB700.
I enjoyed both the P7 and P9, the latter which was notably superior (although rather 'cool and lean' in balance), but neither were sufficiently better than my 'race-tuned' P5, to justify the necessary expenditure. It was therefore at that point that I decided to abandon belt-drive T/Ts and go the modded Techy route, which was something at that point I had been doing a considerable amount of research on.
Based on direct experience, therefore, of comparing all three Regas to the first incarnation of a 'fully tricked out' Technics, which I bought from KAB USA, I can confirm that to my ears the latter was unquestionably superior in many areas - and of course the current iteration of my T/T is significantly superior to that of the original KAB version. Go figure...
I'm sure that some people view me simply as a 'Techy fanboy', but what they don't realise is that I've only reached where I am now after having conducted vast amounts of research on modifying the Technics, and having had considerable experience of listening to many viable alternatives. I'm simply not the type to jump on bandwagons or be influenced by 'flavours of the month'.
You can therefore bet your boots that when I own a particular piece of kit, it's for a bloody good reason! ;)
My love of the Technics is founded purely and simply on my respect for it (when suitably modified) as a first-class transcription device of music on vinyl, not on a desire to be part of any 'club'. Some folks need to get that into their heads... I don't do cliques!
I think you have to be looking at something more upmarket in making comparisons either positive or negative against your particular deck.
Indeed, and I'm glad you agree.
I'm sure Marc's main point is that he would rather have something good of the shelf than spend vast amounts on mods a point which many of us would agree with. His anti Technics comments appear to be based on the standard deck or a more lightly modified version which would cover the versions offered by KAB, Sound Hi-Fi and Zu.
Again I agree. He does come across, however, as rather blinkered and closed-minded, and keen to devalue other people's valid choices. What he writes on his blog, IMO, verges on a hate campaign against the Technics and what it stands for - weird... :scratch: Like I've already explained, the fact is, there is no 'off the shelf' alternative to a fully tricked-out Techy.
But it takes all sorts, I guess. He is certainly a 'character'!
Marco.
Using the latest modded up LP12 as a price v quality comparison is a little extreme to say the least. These have got to be the most overpriced mods ever dreamed up, reinforcing the impression I have always had of Linn for profit maximisation based on taking advantage of those who blindly buy into their philosophy. It puts the LP12 in competition with some seriously good and better thought out ground up designs. So basicaly irrespective of the SQ improvements it's pretty easy to come up with something that is better value.
And yet many, who could afford it, Paul, wouldn't baulk at spending the necessary dosh, but at the same time are critical (often to the point of ridicule) of those of us who've spent many thousands of pounds on modifying the Technics.
The feeling seems to be that, with the Linn, such expenditure is justified because it's a 'proper turntable', whereas the Technics isn't... That's my point.
Such brainwashed thinking smacks of both double standards and an ingrained belief system (not to mention, snobbery) which is long past its sell-by date, no?
Marco.
That's interesting, Rav... May I ask what "mega-buck off-the-shelf TTs" you compared it with?
That's a very good point indeed, and one some should think about very carefully! ;)
Marco.
The decks were, an Audio-Note w/ Io-Gold MC, an Avid-Acutus/SME-V, and a Feickert Blackbird/Kuzma arm. (I also heard some mid-line OL decks.)
Of course we are talking about unfamiliar decks, listened to in unfamiliar systems, with at times unfamiliar music setup in hotel rooms. So the comparisons are pretty vague.
I am not saying that either of the two turntables I have at home are better than any of the above. But my overall feeling was that I am not missing all that much....
Kind regards....
PS: I only mentioned the brand new LP12, since Linn is a very established hifi manufacturer, and is indicative of a off the shelf solution.
You can see exactly where he is coming from with his analogy at the end of the piece:
'Think about these approaches as it relates to the automobile industry. Would you rather own a Hyundai Excel that has been tuned to the hilt using $20,000 worth of parts from a dozen different companies from all over the world? Or would you rather just own a Porsche Cayman S? I'll take the Porsche... and the P9, please.'
If he had actually done some listening comparisons then there would be some credibility in his views but he obviously hasn't and the analogy gives this away - he is basing his views on an idea, on a principle and not on practical experience.
incidentally a pal of mine owned a Porsche 911 Carrera for a year or so. He traded it in for a Subaru Imprezza. Why? Because the Subaru was just as quick and it handled better.
bogle111
04-05-2012, 12:39
The feeling seems to be that, with the Linn, such expenditure is justified because it's a 'proper turntable', whereas the Technics isn't... That's my point.
Such brainwashed thinking smacks of both double standards and an ingrained belief system which is long past its sell-by date, no?
Marco.
There are many out there that will douse the 1200 camp. Some will do it because they are involved with the industry and retailers do not sell the modded. If the reviewers did, then they would be supporting the "buy it direct from the cottage" and where would their advertising come from? Sometimes though, it can be out of confusion or worse still, arrogance.
As there is a car analogy, here comes my spanner.
Modding anything will always give different results, whether the engine, suspension or bodywork. The product will get further away from the original. The Porsche in standard stock form is a known result. By spending a lot on mods to any car will take it off in a different direction than nthe initial performance criteria. (No pun intended) Some better, some worse.
The problem with 1200's and modding as I see it, is that there are variations of SL1210, plus by mixing the pieces (several each of the following)
Mats
Platters
Bearings
Power Supplies
Arms
the end result will not be the same. There would be a terrific number of variant SL1210's. Which route to go down?
There already may exist on this forum a chart with two possible avenues to go down, but I am unaware of it. This would help people to mod their 1200 in a logical path knowing the final outcome.
Whether you are a "Hot Rodder" or a "Plonk & Player", there are always going to be different opinions. Personally, I am a P&Per because the final result is consistency, however, at heart I am a rodder when I see a weakness in the basics. The only thing that I am amazed with in this industry is that so few UK manufacturers went down the DD route like JBE - Fashion or Bullshit. A DD Oracle would have been great. As for BD, I doubt I would ever go back.
Regs
Pete (DD all the way I'm afraid)
BTW If someone with the tech skills wants to rip apart a 1210 to be left with the guts, I can supply the slate cut platform for the exercise. A total rebuild from the ground up resulting in a SL2100.:uhho:
If he had actually done some listening comparisons then there would be some credibility in his views but he obviously hasn't and the analogy gives this away - he is basing his views on an idea, on a principle and not on practical experience.
That's the problem, though, Martin - and unfortunately he's not alone... :rolleyes:
People who think that way with audio, do my head right in, especially when they use their 'views' (based on the sum total of next to hee-haw) to attack those who've arrived at their choices, via the only valid and acceptable method: the practical experience of listening to and comparing equipment!
I will simply never understand the alternative mentality. Indeed it's dangerous, as the gullible and easily influenced will swallow the dogma and potentially ignore going down a route which could lead to their audio nirvana. Exposing such misinformation and prejudice is *precisely* why I continue to champion the Techy cause so vehemently here on AoS.
Marco.
P.S Excellent post, Peter. I'll get to it after lunch :)
RobbieGong
04-05-2012, 12:45
Marc is definately entitled to is opinion without a doubt. His car analogy sort of felt like he was making a point but at the same time exagerating whilst firin a bit of a cheap shot, some may disagree. Getting back to the Techie modding - Again, I'll say that for me I cannot think of a more solid foundation of a turntable to build on with regards to achieving a high end performer to that regard. The thing is as solid as a solid thing which for me was so reassuring from the off. The fantastic motor system which we've covered loads of times and equates to rock solid speed would alone cost the others a bomb to manufacture and is only possible at the price these things left the shelves in the millions at because of mainly dj demand (solid build !!). Ease of use is second to non from scratch (pardun the pun). I picked my first ever 1210 Mk2 about 3+ years ago in very good order for a mere £160. Moved on a couple of years ago to my MK5g which cost me £430 brand new boxed. The 1200 / 1210 is a lot of deck for the money IMO.
Ok - The doubters say why spend £1K / £2K / £3K blah blah Like we all just find that sort of money in one hit and mod the thing and thats my point. Building over time at your own pace has always reaped great results for reasons including those above. I've spent just over £1K on KAB damper, Mike New bearing, Issonoes, External psu BUT over time. The music now sounds the best and more 'real / natural' than I could have ever imagined, built upon a seriously good, solid and reliable platform. A Mike New Platter of some kind will follow at some point which would probably add another £600.00 and then I'd happily pit my Techie up against any deck costing double what I've spent. Also remember that the parts added are not the equivalent of go faster stripes and big exhaust pipes. We are talking properly engineered and researched items that when purchased have brought real genuine improvements in all areas of the sonic presentation, not through colouration but through iliminating the crap. Testimonies in abundance through guys who care, research then produce quality - (Mike New, Paul Hynes, Vantage Audio, Audio Origami.............
Hi Rav,
The decks were, an Audio-Note w/ Io-Gold MC, an Avid-Acutus/SME-V, and a Feickert Blackbird/Kuzma arm. (I also heard some mid-line OL decks.)
Of course we are talking about unfamiliar decks, listened to in unfamiliar systems, with at times unfamiliar music setup in hotel rooms. So the comparisons are pretty vague.
Sure, but at the same time, if there had been any genuine vast sonic improvements, compared with what you're used to, you'd soon have heard them! :exactly:
It's interesting what you say, as those were some serious T/Ts.
I am not saying that either of the two turntables I have at home are better than any of the above. But my overall feeling was that I am not missing all that much....
I feel the exact same way whenever I go to shows. I find most high-end modern T/Ts flatter to decieve, are ridiculously overpriced, and generally offer little (if any) improvement over the classic designs from yesteryear, when most of the important engineering challenges, in terms of designing a high-quality turntable, were solved with some considerable aplomb! ;)
Marco.
And that's exactly where he seems to be missing the point/plot. We are all in this, passionately so, because we firmly believe that our components or systems truly reflect our personal tastes whether in music or simple aesthetics. We chose our equipment after careful listening, research and discourse with other "enthusiasts", to reach something that best does it for us. We spend more time and effort (and maybe money) on system building than buying a car - we are dead serious about it. On this premise alone I would never counter-argue with anyone over his choice of equipment. I think he knows best what stuff his ears like listen too.
So, I couldn't possibly agree with any of the points he raises - if a "pimped up" Hyundai with a turbocharged 164 valve, quadruple intercoolers, faster than light engine with Kevlar doors and gold door knobs is one's cup of tea and he enjoys owning/driving it then what's the problem? I'd certainly prefer the above over that poseur's delight the Porsche Cayenne.
bogle111
04-05-2012, 13:14
Hi Rav,
It's interesting what you say, as those were some serious T/Ts.
Marco.
If you mean digitally, then I would agree? How much better is 1989 GREAT than 2012 GREAT? I am with you on that one.
Regs
Pete
bogle111
04-05-2012, 13:25
And that's exactly where he seems to be missing the point/plot. We are all in this, passionately so, because we firmly believe that our components or systems truly reflect our personal tastes whether in music or simple aesthetics. We chose our equipment after careful listening, research and discourse with other "enthusiasts", to reach something that best does it for us. We spend more time and effort (and maybe money) on system building than buying a car - we are dead serious about it. On this premise alone I would never counter-argue with anyone over his choice of equipment. I think he knows best what stuff his ears like listen too.
So, I couldn't possibly agree with any of the points he raises - if a "pimped up" Hyundai with a turbocharged 164 valve, quadruple intercoolers, faster than light engine with Kevlar doors and gold door knobs is one's cup of tea and he enjoys owning/driving it then what's the problem? I'd certainly prefer the above over that poseur's delight the Porsche Cayenne.
But you have an opinion and counter-argued as expressed by you choice of descriptions.
How many times have you heard something and thought to yourself, the equipment chooser was deaf and missing something?
Regs
Pete
Audioman
04-05-2012, 13:48
The decks were, an Audio-Note w/ Io-Gold MC, an Avid-Acutus/SME-V, and a Feickert Blackbird/Kuzma arm. (I also heard some mid-line OL decks.)
Of course we are talking about unfamiliar decks, listened to in unfamiliar systems, with at times unfamiliar music setup in hotel rooms. So the comparisons are pretty vague.
I am not saying that either of the two turntables I have at home are better than any of the above. But my overall feeling was that I am not missing all that much....
Kind regards....
PS: I only mentioned the brand new LP12, since Linn is a very established hifi manufacturer, and is indicative of a off the shelf solution.
I think there are a couple major factors at play here. Firstly show exhibitors seem to be largely incapable of setting up a system to produce it's potential due to environmental problems or plain lazyness. Also the law of diminishing returns sets in rapidly. I have yet to hear a TT that shows a completely clean set of heels to a Mitchell Orbe within a sensibly priced system and in all round sound reproduction.
I have heard a few good ones that would be worth buying but for their very high price. There are a number of new decks that from reviews and forum comments may be worth the money but I haven't heard them. They all have subtle differences in presentation and any manufacturers top of the range model takes a particular approach to its limits.
The result is the expensive deck may be harder to live with for most listeners than something that is built with a good balance of compromises. This also applies very much to flagship speaker models. I think a lot of high pricing is a result of superfluous cosmetics and unecessary overengineering as well as limiting demand to a restricted manufacturing capability. To some buyers exclusivity is all in hi-end hi-fi. This is similar to ownership of Rolex watches and Ferraris.
I have yet to hear a TT that shows a completely clean set of heels to a Mitchell Orbe within a sensibly priced system and in all round sound reproduction.
It depends on what you mean by "a completely clean set of heels". I've heard my Techy, in an earlier stage of its development, against an Orbe, in a familiar system.
The Techy did not piss all over the Orbe, but rather it offered an equally valid take on the music listened to. I could still hear what I don't like about belt-drive T/Ts, but I could also hear what the owner preferred about his Orbe.
If you value wide soundstaging and a sense of delicacy and air and space around voices and instruments, more than anything else, then Michell T/Ts have few rivals - it's the 'thing' that they do right the most, just as unwavering speed stability, solidity, and its impact on music reproduced, is what the Techy (and other D/D T/Ts of similar quality), do best. It's simply a matter of defining what aspects of music reproduction are the most important to you.
There is no 'perfect' anything in audio - only different flavours of one's own definition of 'perfection'.
I think a lot of high pricing is a result of superfluous cosmetics and unecessary overengineering as well as limiting demand to a restricted manufacturing capability.
I completely agree. What it appears to be mostly about now, in the high-end, is who can sell the best 'sizzle', and thus create the greatest cachet with their products, amongst well-heeled audiophiles, through the desirability of owning the badge with their brand name on it.
Bullshit to that, I say, even though I could afford to play in that playground! :mental: :wanker:
To some buyers exclusivity is all in hi-end hi-fi. This is similar to ownership of Rolex watches and Ferraris.
Good luck to them. The majority of these people, however, in my experience, are rarely genuine music lovers, which for me is the whole point of owning a high-end hi-fi system!! It shouldn't be there as an ornament or a status symbol - if it is, then you've got it for the wrong reasons.
Marco.
But you have an opinion and counter-argued as expressed by you choice of descriptions.
How many times have you heard something and thought to yourself, the equipment chooser was deaf and missing something?
Regs
Pete
The essence of the argument remains the same though. I obviously have my own opinion on many things and know what I personally like/dislike - and I have certainly heard or read great things about equipment that I would personally never buy or recommend. But as it's all a matter of personal taste and we are all in a position to chose what suits us best - any counter argument becomes by definition redundant.
bogle111
04-05-2012, 14:12
The essence of the argument remains the same though. I obviously have my own opinion on many things and know what I personally like/dislike - and I have certainly heard or read great things about equipment that I would personally never buy or recommend. But as it's all a matter of personal taste and we are all in a position to chose what suits us best - any counter argument becomes by definition redundant.
Yes, I agree.
I think there are a couple major factors at play here. Firstly show exhibitors seem to be largely incapable of setting up a system to produce it's potential due to environmental problems or plain lazyness. Also the law of diminishing returns sets in rapidly. I have yet to hear a TT that shows a completely clean set of heels to a Mitchell Orbe within a sensibly priced system and in all round sound reproduction.
I have heard a few good ones that would be worth buying but for their very high price. There are a number of new decks that from reviews and forum comments may be worth the money but I haven't heard them. They all have subtle differences in presentation and any manufacturers top of the range model takes a particular approach to its limits.
The result is the expensive deck may be harder to live with for most listeners than something that is built with a good balance of compromises. This also applies very much to flagship speaker models. I think a lot of high pricing is a result of superfluous cosmetics and unecessary overengineering as well as limiting demand to a restricted manufacturing capability. To some buyers exclusivity is all in hi-end hi-fi. This is similar to ownership of Rolex watches and Ferraris.
Wholeheartedly agree. But then again there are many out there that wouldn't consider a Rolex or Ferrari as exclusive. Far from it.
Reid Malenfant
04-05-2012, 14:19
Here's something that just occured to me & another point that Marc missed by way more than a country mile :lol:
I think Marco kind of alluded to it, but maybe even he didn't hit the nail on the head quite as squarely as he'd have liked ;)
This bloke appears to want something straight out of a box to be the be all & end all of the situation. I get the impression that if he didn't have to set the deck up in any way or even fit a cartridge he'd be a happy bunny.
Well there are people out there that don't like moving into a Barratt show home, they like to maybe renovate an older property to create something that is exactly what they are looking for, rather than simply keeping up with the Jones's.
What pride in ownership is there for people that can simply afford to drop a good few thousand on a TT compared to a person that has taken their time & built something that will do exactly what they want with far few compromises.
As Marco states, you'll be looking for a needle in a very substantial haystack if you want to find a modern top qualty direct drive turntable. While there is one that I believe uses the Techie motor (maybe), I can't think of another..
So you build it or compromise...
While I know there are manufacturers making incredibly expensive subwoofers out there, I neither have the money & neither am I willing to accept the compromises that these manufacturers have built into their own products!
No, I'd rather design & build my own & not compromise & have a heck of a lot more pride in ownership of what would be a unique item.
But then it's so much easier to compromise if you have a fat wallet isn't it :rfl:
Who's not to say that the person who drops a lot of cash on a system are not bigger music lovers than people that like to tinker.
Either way does it matter!
Reid Malenfant
04-05-2012, 14:36
I didn't mention anything about who's the better lover :lol:
I talked about pride of ownership.
Would you be more proud of a kit car or whatever that you built yourself, or one you bought from a car showroom?
I think it stands to reason that it would logically be the DIY car that would give you greater pride in ownership as you did the work yourself...
I find that people that can simply drop a big wedge on any purchase they like tend to know the cost of everything, but at the end of the day they also tend to know the value of nothing.
Hi Peter,
There are many out there that will douse the 1200 camp. Some will do it because they are involved with the industry and retailers do not sell the modded. If the reviewers did, then they would be supporting the "buy it direct from the cottage" and where would their advertising come from? Sometimes though, it can be out of confusion or worse still, arrogance.
I completely agree. Why do you think I continually give the middle finger to those with that type of mentality, and who have vested interests to protect?
One of the things I enjoy most about championing the Techy is I know that, with the influence of a large and popular site like AoS, the word gets out there pretty quickly in Internet land - and it stays there - and so acts continually as 'one in the eye' for those, who for commercial reasons, would rather see the Techy disappear into the sunset... ;)
The concept of taking a basic SL-1200/1210, and modifying it to become something rather special, is becoming more popular with the enthusiast T/T market all the time, as more and more people hear about it, and so try that route for themselves. AoS will continue to be at the forefront of promoting that concept, so the folk with agendas can go and take a hike! :finger:
As there is a car analogy, here comes my spanner.
Modding anything will always give different results, whether the engine, suspension or bodywork. The product will get further away from the original. The Porsche in standard stock form is a known result. By spending a lot on mods to any car will take it off in a different direction than nthe initial performance criteria. (No pun intended) Some better, some worse.
The problem with 1200's and modding as I see it, is that there are variations of SL1210, plus by mixing the pieces (several each of the following)
Mats
Platters
Bearings
Power Supplies
Arms
the end result will not be the same. There would be a terrific number of variant SL1210's. Which route to go down?
That's what a forum like this is for. If one takes the trouble to read through threads, one gets to know who's opinions are based on genuine experience, and thus have validity and are worth considering, or the 'wafflers', who simply invent things to justify their own position, and ultimately therefore who, amongst the assembled membership, are on our own wavelength.
There are people whose opinions here I trust enough to audition equipment, which they recommend, without hesitation, providing of course that said equipment interests me sufficiently in the first place.
For me, that's what proper audio communities are about: sharing experiences and learning from each other to our mutual benefit, not the willy-waving, tedious point-scoring and endless, circular diatribe about 'what science can and can't prove’ in audio, and the intolerant behaviour towards each other shown by those from their respective 'camps', as is often seen elsewhere. :rolleyes:
Sadly, pfm is currently being infected with this disease, simply by allowing a minority of vocal 'objectivists' (who really offer little constructive input and are there simply to justify their own dogma) to take over the place. I really do hope that Tony and his team nip it in the bud soon, or pfm could slowly go the way of the old Zerogain forum, or turn into Wigwam MKII. Anyway, I digress...
There already may exist on this forum a chart with two possible avenues to go down, but I am unaware of it. This would help people to mod their 1200 in a logical path knowing the final outcome.
That's a great idea! Perhaps that’s something for The Library to consider?
Whether you are a "Hot Rodder" or a "Plonk & Player", there are always going to be different opinions. Personally, I am a P&Per because the final result is consistency, however, at heart I am a rodder when I see a weakness in the basics.
Me too! It's also another valid point. I firmly believe that people shun going down the modded Techy route, simply because they can't be arsed with the fiddling. Like you say, they want "plonk & play".
What, however, if they had a tried and tested 'solution' to buy into in one hit, based on their available budget? If that were the case, I think that more people would be inclined to give it a go. Various tried and tested options, outlined accordingly in The Library (or as a 'sticky' thread in Analogue Art), in 'black & white', as it were, might just be the ticket! :)
BTW If someone with the tech skills wants to rip apart a 1210 to be left with the guts, I can supply the slate cut platform for the exercise. A total rebuild from the ground up resulting in a SL2100
Most interesting... I'll bear that in mind! :D
Marco.
morris_minor
04-05-2012, 14:39
I've read all this with interest.
There are, of course, many paths to righteousness, but one proposed by (what I first read as) The Vinyl Antichrist, is probably, on balance, not the one to take. :lol:
However, I am with those who say 'this is only hi-fi' FFS. We each do our own thing, so move along, there . . . life's too short for inconsequential spats. :peace:
I didn't mention anything about who's the better lover :lol:
I talked about pride of ownership.
Would you be more proud of a kit car or whatever that you built yourself, or one you bought from a car showroom?
I think it stands to reason that it would logically be the DIY car that would give you greater pride in ownership as you did the work yourself...
Would have more pride if i built it but dosen't mean the bloke next door who has a ford focus doesn't enjoy driving more.
Audioman
04-05-2012, 14:43
Wholeheartedly agree. But then again there are many out there that wouldn't consider a Rolex or Ferrari as exclusive. Far from it.
They're called Premier League footballers !!! :)
Reid Malenfant
04-05-2012, 14:46
Would have more pride if i built it but dosen't mean the bloke next door who has a ford focus doesn't enjoy driving more.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see what you are getting at :scratch:
Why do you keep pressing me on who is the biggest lover of music? That is in no way the question brought up by the OP & nothing I have typed has brought this into question.
It's simply unanswerable if you think about it. How do you measure who loves music more?
Therefore it's not even worth bringing up surely?
They're called Premier League footballers !!! :)
:lol:
I think he basically (as Mark says) is not into tweaking which is fair enough. Each to their own
There are a few DD being made Brinkmann Teres and Grand Prix Audio Monaco
What Marco and co have done is blazzed a PATH that others may choose to follow
For their 3 choices to really good sounding turntable
DD if the power supply is clean and motor is stable
A heavy mass belt drive
A well sorted Idlier/rim drive
There are a few DD being made Brinkmann Teres and Grand Prix Audio Monaco
Indeed, John - and what do those T/Ts cost, in comparison to a fully 'tricked out' Techy? ;)
As an example, my own T/T has cost me so far in the region of £5.5k, which includes the original purchase price of a brand new MK5G, from the States.
However... £2100 of that is from the cost of my new Ortofon tonearm! That brings the bill down to £3.4k.
The fact is, it doesn't take fitting an 'exotic' tonearm to turn the Techy into a genuine high-end T/T. It's sorting the T/T out properly, so that one hears the true capability of the motor unit, which matters most. The same could be achieved by using, say, a Jelco 750, with all the existing, more fundamental, mods which have been carried out on my T/T, remaining in place.
Therefore, if one adds the cost of a Jelco SA-750, to the above £3.4k, it takes us to around £3.75k.
Can you get a new Brinkmann or a GPM for that price?? I rest my case!
Marco.
Here's something that just occured to me & another point that Marc missed by way more than a country mile :lol:
I think Marco kind of alluded to it, but maybe even he didn't hit the nail on the head quite as squarely as he'd have liked ;)
This bloke appears to want something straight out of a box to be the be all & end all of the situation. I get the impression that if he didn't have to set the deck up in any way or even fit a cartridge he'd be a happy bunny.
Well there are people out there that don't like moving into a Barratt show home, they like to maybe renovate an older property to create something that is exactly what they are looking for, rather than simply keeping up with the Jones's.
You're spot on with what you've written. I alluded earlier to the 'uniqueness' of owing a bespoke T/T, and your observations have encapsulated that nicely :cool:
Barratt show home? Never!! :eek:
Marco.
Do I detect evidence of reverse discrimination here?:lol:
Don't know gentlemen, but I hardly see how most "plug and play" "ready made for you" offerings out there would necessarily fall in the "same cauldron" or "Barratt house" category.
In my recent search for a t/t I went out and auditioned some of the usual culprits from rather "mainstream" manufacturers: Michell, Notts Analogue, Kuzma, Amazon, Clearaudio, Linn and Vyger. In my price category, all of the above offer fit and forget - just add water (err... cartridge) products that basically share the same philosophy: belt driven, DC motors in separate housing, largish platters, and very specific or specified upgrade paths (with minimal personal involvement). Yet they all offer VERY different design approaches and principles, different manufacturing materials, different visuals and aesthetics and, most importantly, very different sonic presentations. I'm sure the same would apply with other t/t's which I, unfortunately, never got the chance to listen to. There are some very distinct flavours out there, and I guess it's up to each and everyone of us to figure out which to go for.
As for pride of ownership, I guess that comes in many different guises. There are thousands of Michell and LP12 owners out there that are very proud of their t/t's (as they should be) by the mere and simple fact that they (like the Technics) are legends in their own right. Regardless of what others think of their sonic presentation.
That being said, I stand in absolute awe towards DIY'ers and tweakers for the sheer effort, blood, sweat and tears they put into their equipment. In my book, that's worthy of respect.:cool:
RobbieGong
05-05-2012, 13:19
Do I detect evidence of reverse discrimination here?:lol:
Don't know gentlemen, but I hardly see how most "plug and play" "ready made for you" offerings out there would necessarily fall in the "same cauldron" or "Barratt house" category.
In my recent search for a t/t I went out and auditioned some of the usual culprits from rather "mainstream" manufacturers: Michell, Notts Analogue, Kuzma, Amazon, Clearaudio, Linn and Vyger. In my price category, all of the above offer fit and forget - just add water (err... cartridge) products that basically share the same philosophy: belt driven, DC motors in separate housing, largish platters, and very specific or specified upgrade paths (with minimal personal involvement). Yet they all offer VERY different design approaches and principles, different manufacturing materials, different visuals and aesthetics and, most importantly, very different sonic presentations. I'm sure the same would apply with other t/t's which I, unfortunately, never got the chance to listen to. There are some very distinct flavours out there, and I guess it's up to each and everyone of us to figure out which to go for.
As for pride of ownership, I guess that comes in many different guises. There are thousands of Michell and LP12 owners out there that are very proud of their t/t's (as they should be) by the mere and simple fact that they (like the Technics) are legends in their own right. Regardless of what others think of their sonic presentation.
That being said, I stand in absolute awe towards DIY'ers and tweakers for the sheer effort, blood, sweat and tears they put into their equipment. In my book, that's worthy of respect.:cool:
And I'm in awe of the money some of them have to spend on it cause I wish I had it to spend on my Techie too :lol:
I wonder whether a true top-end TT or a DIY hot-rodded SL1200 (or the like) would retain more value should you wish to move it on.
To borrow the car analogy, I suspect that a Porsche will always be valued by the market as a Porsche (i.e. an item with known provenance and history), wheras your Hyundai with a rocket engine will probably be worth less than a standard Hyndai unless you revert it to standard, and sell the parts to another Hyundai owner with a death-wish!.
Of course, this isn't to traduce the pleasure of modifying an item and customising it. I do feel that we should not be dogmatic and so defensive when others challenge this approach. Basically, what works for you is right, and there is no absolute 'right approach' to align others to.
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Absolutely (I share your sentiments), and I also agree this:
To borrow the car analogy, I suspect that a Porsche will always be valued by the market as a Porsche (i.e. an item with known provenance and history), wheras your Hyundai with a rocket engine will probably be worth less...
However, on AoS we will always champion what equipment and ancillaries are considered as offering the highest SPPV - and therefore what gives the 'biggest bang for your buck'. Thus, recommendations on how best to achieve that, will always be the central focus. As such, the ownership of high-end 'badges' will never be important here.
Furthermore, as AoS is first and foremost a discerning enthusiast's site, then those needs, before those of the industry, or any commercial concern, will always come first. It's not about market value or 'desirability'; it's about raw SPPV, pure and simple.
Therefore, purely on those terms, one cannot argue against the validity of a judiciously modified Technics, when compared with today's high-end 'off the shelf' direct-drive turntables, as was evidenced by my earlier calculations :)
Marco.
I wonder whether a true top-end TT or a DIY hot-rodded SL1200 (or the like) would retain more value should you wish to move it on.
To borrow the car analogy, I suspect that a Porsche will always be valued by the market as a Porsche (i.e. an item with known provenance and history), wheras your Hyundai with a rocket engine will probably be worth less than a standard Hyndai unless you revert it to standard, and sell the parts to another Hyundai owner with a death-wish!.
Of course, this isn't to traduce the pleasure of modifying an item and customising it. I do feel that we should not be dogmatic and so defensive when others challenge this approach. Basically, what works for you is right, and there is no absolute 'right approach' to align others to.
Cheers,
Alex
Hi Alex,
Definitely agree with your last statement - not necessarily with the value analogy. Technics decks have a loyal almost cult like following and their owners or potential owners seem to be very aware of the costs/benefits of each individual upgrade or modification. If, for example, Marco decided to sell his deck, anyone in the market for a Technics would probably recognize its real material value and the quality of the individual components, and thus price it accordingly. Investment wise it might even represent better value than some of the other "top-end" decks (dd or not) whose prices seem to drop the minute they walk out of the showroom.
I wonder whether a true top-end TT or a DIY hot-rodded SL1200 (or the like) would retain more value should you wish to move it on.
To borrow the car analogy, I suspect that a Porsche will always be valued by the market as a Porsche (i.e. an item with known provenance and history), wheras your Hyundai with a rocket engine will probably be worth less than a standard Hyndai unless you revert it to standard, and sell the parts to another Hyundai owner with a death-wish!.
Of course, this isn't to traduce the pleasure of modifying an item and customising it. I do feel that we should not be dogmatic and so defensive when others challenge this approach. Basically, what works for you is right, and there is no absolute 'right approach' to align others to.
Cheers,
Alex
As Yogi said, "I'm with you, BooBoo, 100%", particularly the last paragraph - irrespective of what others may post, there is no definitive single path to audio Nirvana, with the Techie or any other single piece or combination of kit. Preaching the Gospel is fine in my book but attempting to become a missionary aiming to convert the poor unfortunates who do not currently believe is a step too far in my book.
Dave.
Hi Dave,
Preaching the Gospel is fine in my book but attempting to become a missionary aiming to convert the poor unfortunates who do not currently believe is a step too far in my book.
I agree, and I don't see any evidence of that here. It's simply about ensuring that there is as much factual information available as possible, in order for people to make an informed decision on whether modifying the Technics is the right path for them to take or not.
In that respect, it's always helpful being exposed to both sides of the argument :)
Marco.
jazzpiano
07-05-2012, 17:42
Hello,
If he wants to post some financial caveats regarding getting into SL 1200's, fine, folks should know this - But, I don't see the need to be so hissy about Marco? To me, it's really not an audio point - Marco gets to choose what he likes, interact to the degree he wants, he knows how much time/energy/$'s he's investing and how much satisfaction he derives. 'Coulda been a nice, objective article. As it is I don't see the point... And as far as 2 schools - DIY and out-of-the-box, not true, some of us enjoy dabbling but only to a degree. There are all kinds and shades in-between and that's OK.
:cool: pale, stout, nut brown, lager - whatever you want
Barry
Hi Barry,
If he wants to post some financial caveats regarding getting into SL 1200's, fine, folks should know this - But, I don't see the need to be so hissy about Marco?
I wasn't being "hissy"; merely challenging his observations, both with facts, and my alternative opinion, based on genuine and practical listening experience.
For a true definition of "hissy", see Marc's outbursts, from the original discussion, shown here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9681
Marco.
jazzpiano
07-05-2012, 17:53
Hi Marco,
I was referring to Marc coming off as 'hissy' towards you, or like he had to knock you down, which I didn't approve of, not YOU being hissy. Sorry if any misunderstanding.
Best,
Barry
Ah, apologies, that's not how it read :)
I totally agree. There's nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, however ill-informed, but when opinions are riddled with agendas, that's when you have a problem.
Marco.
If, for example, Marco decided to sell his deck, anyone in the market for a Technics would probably recognize its real material value and the quality of the individual components, and thus price it accordingly. Investment wise it might even represent better value than some of the other "top-end" decks (dd or not) whose prices seem to drop the minute they walk out of the showroom.
That's a very good point, John, even before taking into consideration my 'celebrity status'! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
That's a very good point, John, even before taking into consideration my 'celebrity status'! :eyebrows: ;)
Marco.
Any publicity, good or bad, is still publicity my friend.:lol:
Indeed! ;)
The other thing I've found is that, in the States, equipment from classic British manufacturers, such as Linn, Rega and Michell (amongst others) appears to have a certain kudos and desirability of ownership, which a lot of Japanese gear doesn't enjoy to the same extent.
I detect a definite perception over there that British gear is considered as 'a bit special' - even if we know that this is not always the case!
Therefore, I've experienced this Brit-gear 'love-in' before, with Yanks, even before I had the pleasure of encountering the charming, and of course agenda-free, Marc Phillips.
Marco.
sq225917
10-05-2012, 07:17
Me think the man doth protest too much. You'd love to be widely accePted as the doyen of technics mods Marco, there's no point pretending that you wouldn't, we all crave a little recognition. There's nowt wrong with that either.
I think a lot of the comparissons are somewhat off here though. The 1210 has a nice engineblock, everything else is crap. To free its true potential you need to spend thousands on mods to the physical and electrical parts of the deck. Sure nothing else sounds like the finished modded deck, but that doesn't mean it's brilliantly unique, just unique, and all heavily modded decks are that.
It's no more or less an ideologically sound method of arriving at a particular sound than any other method, and because sound quality is an entirely personal judgement no more or less likely to deliver that than any other method.
Surely people can just enjoy what they have without criticising and belittling alternatives or making out that their chosen path is in any way more valid than any other.
Hi Simon,
Me think the man doth protest too much. You'd love to be widely accePted as the doyen of technics mods Marco, there's no point pretending that you wouldn't, we all crave a little recognition. There's nowt wrong with that either.
Ha - you can think what you like, matey. I'm not protesting or belittling, but rather simply informing and challenging misinformation. And yes, I enjoy helping people, by using the experience that I have to their benefit, on subjects I know inside out.
The reality is that for every inaccurate and blinkered, agenda-driven portrayal of the sonic capabilities of the Techy, often by people who haven't even heard a fully modified one (!), I'll seek to redress the balance with reasoned logic and facts, based on the practical experience of actually experimenting and listening!
This is done in order to allow folks, who may be considering going down the route of modifying a Technics, to study genuine and practical information from people who've been there and done it. I needed that help when I was first researching the subject, and so I'm making damn sure that AoS provides as much of it as possible to help others.
Judging by the amount of people joining here to go that route, and by the number of PMs and emails I receive on the subject, I can safely say that what I'm doing works! ;)
Marco.
sq225917
10-05-2012, 12:53
;-)
No doubt that it works fella, none at all, or that it's a major contribution to the success of AOS. Where you lead.....
jazzpiano
11-05-2012, 20:37
Hi,
Marco is dead on about Yanks being anglophiles - I'm one of them. Why? With regards to gear: Got sick of 'flabby' sounding speakers (w/ solid-state amps) in the 70s and loved the detailed, tight sound of the British work w/ bextrene, polypropylene, etc. and good quality cross-overs, veneers, etc. Also, and this is BIG - your mags were WAY ahead, what with HFN&RR, Hi-Fi Choice/Answers, etc. It was generally believed that our Stereo Review never saw a piece of equipment they didn't like as long as they advertised in their mag and the Rodrigues 'toons were the only reason to buy. I also liked the fact that the Brits seemed to appreciate integrateds whereas here you either got separates and were taken seriously or a receiver and shunned. I think timing is everything. Now, we are beginning to appreciate our own and Japanese gear (and those 'flabby' speakers can sound good w/ tubes) but the British gear fit what we needed at the time.
And then there's: Monty Python, Watney's Red Barrel, Helen Mirren and Britt Ecklund (British by association), teak, Vaughan Williams, the Avengers, the Prisoner, the Kinks, the Faces, the Small Faces (Ogden Nut Gone Flake w/ circular cover)...
Best,
Sir Barrymore
Stateside
11-05-2012, 23:39
Sorry about that. But I strongly suspect that this has a lot more to do with hi fi magazines, money and marketing over here than it does with envy about our British cousins cultural and musical achievements and fine sensibilities. Which is not to say that they aren't magnificent, mind you.
The Grand Wazoo
11-05-2012, 23:42
I think it may have a lot to do with pricing too. What seems to us as a rather ordinary and humdrum UK product feels exotic and rarified to you simply because of the jacked up imported price. And vice versa.
Stateside
12-05-2012, 00:05
The Absolute Sound and Stereophile are the preeminent print journals in the States, and I'm guessing that their operations are largely funded by ad dollars paid by manufacturers, distributors and retailers for hi-end gear, and all of their inventory of turntables are belt-driven.
TAS and Stereophile establish conventions concerning hi-fidelity gear quality that some internet hifi reviewers (not those like 6 Moons or Positive Feedback, of course) may feel compelled to abide by or suffer the pity and disdain of the 'real' reviewers at the big boys.
When you read, e.g., Robert Harley's 'The Complete Guide to High-End Audio (4th ed. Acapella Publishing), the clear preference for high-end belt drive tables is explicit. (No criticism is intended here at Mr. Harley, the editor in chief of TAS, whose reviews are careful and great reads.) Again, the buzz is that money talks and BS walks when it comes to getting reviewed in TAS and Stereophile, and Matsushita has no money to spend on promoting the Technics deck.
Best,
MIke
jazzpiano
12-05-2012, 06:14
Hello,
It's interesting how there's eventually a re-assessment of things. I mean the Techies were flat ubiquitious by rockers who didn't give a crap about hi-fi in the 70s here and were generallynot taken seriously as hi-fi turntables here at all. I knew so many people who had these and set them on top their Klipsch Hereseys, JBL L100s, etc. The Technics SL-1200 is probably the ultimate example of a re-assessed,re-appreciated product.
Best,
Barry
Don't know how I stumbled upon this but it appears to have caused quite a stir. Back when Marc worked for us, he never really enjoyed the 1200. I have to admit I've never been a huge fan of a stock 1200, however, between the enthusiasm I've seen here and on a few other forums, along with Dave C's help, I really enjoy the modded 1200 these days. We now have two of them in the fleet - one with most of the Sound HiFi mods and one with most of the Zu mods. Both are great tables and well worth the money spent.
I think one of the toughest things to overcome as a reviewer is to try and keep an open mind with everything.
Hell, I'm even going down the TD-124 path now.
Can't have too many turntables, I say.
sq225917
15-07-2012, 07:25
He's just another guy with a personal opinion about what he likes and what he doesn't like. it's no more or less valid than anyone else's choice about what deck they prefer and his opinion doesn't validate or negate anyone else's personal opinion about the deck they own and use themselves. If one simply accepts that people have different opinions and that they are as entitled and just as likely to be right or wrong as anyone else in then what's the trouble?
Marco, if you are happy with your own choice then why give two figs about what anyone else thinks? Unless you feel the need to have your opinion validated by others.
I think there's some merit in part of what he says, but ultimately think he lands at the wrong conclusion. If I wanted the best sound from a DD deck and wanted to choose my own arm and work on the PSU in a platform that leant itself most easily to modification and the highest quality replay then i'd buy a SP10 MK3. I understand that the 1210 gives a more accessible point of entry and is therefore a more logical choice for many. But once you've spent a few grand on it, might you not have achieved more, and potentially for less outlay starting from the Sp10 than a 1210? I genuinely don't know the answer.
At the end of the day, opinions are like arseholes, we all have them and some of them are full of shit. ;-)
Don't know how I stumbled upon this but it appears to have caused quite a stir. Back when Marc worked for us, he never really enjoyed the 1200. I have to admit I've never been a huge fan of a stock 1200, however, between the enthusiasm I've seen here and on a few other forums, along with Dave C's help, I really enjoy the modded 1200 these days. We now have two of them in the fleet - one with most of the Sound HiFi mods and one with most of the Zu mods. Both are great tables and well worth the money spent.
I think one of the toughest things to overcome as a reviewer is to try and keep an open mind with everything.
Hell, I'm even going down the TD-124 path now.
Can't have too many turntables, I say.
Hi Jeff,
I'm trying to reply to your email, but it keeps bouncing back when I send one to jeff@tonepublications.com
Are you still having problems with your server, or have you got another email address I can contact you on? :)
Marco.
P.S Simon, I'll reply to you later.
Hi Jeff,
I'm trying to reply to your email, but it keeps bouncing back when I send one to jeff@tonepublications.com
Are you still having problems with your server, or have you got another email address I can contact you on? :)
Marco.
P.S Simon, I'll reply to you later.
Still seems to be a bit wacky, but I did get your email.. Hopefully sorted in the next day or so
chris@panteg
15-07-2012, 09:08
He's just another guy with a personal opinion about what he likes and what he doesn't like. it's no more or less valid than anyone else's choice about what deck they prefer and his opinion doesn't validate or negate anyone else's personal opinion about the deck they own and use themselves. If one simply accepts that people have different opinions and that they are as entitled and just as likely to be right or wrong as anyone else in then what's the trouble?
Marco, if you are happy with your own choice then why give two figs about what anyone else thinks? Unless you feel the need to have your opinion validated by others.
I think there's some merit in part of what he says, but ultimately think he lands at the wrong conclusion. If I wanted the best sound from a DD deck and wanted to choose my own arm and work on the PSU in a platform that leant itself most easily to modification and the highest quality replay then i'd buy a SP10 MK3. I understand that the 1210 gives a more accessible point of entry and is therefore a more logical choice for many. But once you've spent a few grand on it, might you not have achieved more, and potentially for less outlay starting from the Sp10 than a 1210? I genuinely don't know the answer.
At the end of the day, opinions are like arseholes, we all have them and some of them are full of shit. ;-)
Some good points raised , if you get an SP10 mk2 put it in a plinth , serviced and your arm/cart of choice , then you have an excellent turntable with just as much scope for improvement (perhaps even more ) than a SL1200 mk2 ? If your highly modified and maxed out 1210 sounds better than a good SP10 ? Then fine but what about a maxed out SP10 ? There are plenty of mods/improvements for it , though many owners often just get them serviced with a decent plinth .
Daniel Quinn
15-07-2012, 09:19
For those with little time , ill sum up this thread .
bloke A as the temerity to trash the technics twelve months ago and bloke B spends an age proving bloke A is an idiot without actually saying it whilst pretending all he really objected to was the bloke A's suggestion that a reasonably priced out of the box dd turntable is available .
Bloke b's opinion should be accepted because of his wealth of experience and golden ears and whilst he fully accepts - for he is reasonable and rational - that low mass belt drives may suit sum , you are left in no doubt -for it is more than inference even though he deosnt actually say it - that any body who prefers such a means of music making is mad and deaf. ;)
several technics acolyates chip in for support one person attempts to defend the notion that bloke a's opinion may be just as valid .
Still seems to be a bit wacky, but I did get your email.. Hopefully sorted in the next day or so
Nice one, Jeff. If you could reply, when you get a chance, I'd appreciate it :)
Marco.
For those with little time , ill sum up this thread .
bloke A as the temerity to trash the technics twelve months ago and bloke B spends an age proving bloke A is an idiot without actually saying it whilst pretending all he really objected to was the bloke A's suggestion that a reasonably priced out of the box dd turntable is available .
Bloke b's opinion should be accepted because of his wealth of experience and golden ears and whilst he fully accepts - for he is reasonable and rational - that low mass belt drives may suit sum , you are left in no doubt -for it is more than inference even though he deosnt actually say it - that any body who prefers such a means of music making is mad and deaf. ;)
several technics acolyates chip in for support one person attempts to defend the notion that bloke a's opinion may be just as valid .
It will come as a surprise to no one that I agree with the reasoning behind this post. In fairness I should perhaps add that I speak as a confirmed Techie fan and have benefitted greatly in this regard from advice and information from Techie users on this forum.
Dave.
It strikes me as a prime example of the very worst sort of 'handbags at dawn' audio discussion.
Hi Simon,
He's just another guy with a personal opinion about what he likes and what he doesn't like.
I wouldn't have had a problem with that in the slightest (plenty of people on here prefer using something else to a Techy, modded or otherwise, and I leave them to it), but it was the way that this guy launched what was tantamount to a hate campaign against the Technics and its users, which prompted me to respond as I did.
...it's no more or less valid than anyone else's choice about what deck they prefer.
Well, that would've been the case if he'd actually heard a fully modified one, but of course he hadn't, and was simply spouting bollocks, based on nothing much more than unfounded prejudice, thus his 'opinion' was worth 'hee-haw' (as they say in Glasgow).
I'm sorry, but I have a low tolerance threshold for people who slag stuff off that they haven't even heard properly. That shit is completely unconstructive and only serves to create misinformation.
As I wrote before (earlier in the thread):
The reality is that for every inaccurate and blinkered, agenda-driven portrayal of the sonic capabilities of the Techy, often by people who haven't even heard a fully modified one (!) I'll seek to redress the balance with reasoned logic and facts, based on the practical experience of actually experimenting and listening!
This is done in order to allow folks, who may be considering going down the route of modifying a Technics, to study genuine and practical information from people who've been there and done it. I needed that help when I was first researching the subject, and so I'm making damn sure that AoS provides as much of it as possible to help others.
I stand by every word of that, as it's the simple truth. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with wanting my opinion validated by others. Please read it, Simon (and others), and let it sink in, once and for all.
If I wanted the best sound from a DD deck and wanted to choose my own arm and work on the PSU in a platform that leant itself most easily to modification and the highest quality replay then i'd buy a SP10 MK3. I understand that the 1210 gives a more accessible point of entry and is therefore a more logical choice for many. But once you've spent a few grand on it, might you not have achieved more, and potentially for less outlay starting from the Sp10 than a 1210? I genuinely don't know the answer.
Sure, you may be right. The trouble is that MK3 SP10s are as rare as hen's teeth, so it's not a viable option for most - that, and also the fact that you're still dealing with using an old turntable, which in all likelihood will need plenty spending on it in order to get it performing anything like to its original spec.
There are SP10 users on record here who have said that the control electronics require recalibrating (in order for the motor units to perform optimally), which needs done by an expert with access to the appropriate equipment, and that this service doesn't come cheap. Then you have to factor in the cost of a top-notch plinth, in order to hear the full potential of the motor unit, and of course a decent arm and cartridge.
Add that lot up, including what an SP10 MK3 motor unit would cost on its own, and you're probably not far off what I've paid for my modded Techy, minus the Ortofon arm, which is the single most expensive thing I've fitted to my T/T - and you still don't know for sure if said SP10, suitably fettled, would sonically outperform my T/T or one of the other very highly modified SL-1210s, people on this forum and elsewhere use.
Nah, for me, it's way too much of a ball-ache, especially when there are hundreds of thousands, or maybe even millions of used (some almost brand new) SL-1200s and 1210s out there, all likely with optimally performing control electronics, waiting to be transformed into some of the best sounding T/Ts that money can buy! :cool:
Marco.
10 pages in some people still missing the point in spectacular fashion...
What actually happened:
Bloke A trashes the Technics says there is no point spending lots of money modding one when you can buy an off the shelf deck from e.g Rega that is just as good in fact in his opinion a lot better
Bloke B who is perhaps a little evangelical about trying to point people in the direction of a good sound but nevertheless means well points out that no off the shelf solution will sound like a modded Technics so if that is the sound you want there is no off the shelf alternative and it is misleading people to suggest that there is.
Cue 8 pages of 'all opinions are valid' type posts.:rolleyes:
chris@panteg
15-07-2012, 10:16
Hi Marco
I find that last sentence amazing ! You are a guy who would go to great lengths to obtain that little bit extra improvement for your system , am I not mistaken ? Example being your recent experiments with tonearm cables , getting an SP10 sorted might seem daunting but Richard (vantage) is the man , and he's not looking to top up his pension pot ! Err hum if you know what I mean .
Cue 8 pages of 'all opinions are valid' type posts...
Indeed, Martin. Thank goodness someone is paying proper attention! :doh:
It's those types of posts which rip my knitting and frustrate me beyond belief, not only because, like you say, they spectacularly miss the point, but simply because although all opinions are valid, some are undoubtedly more valid than others: namely those of who actually have practical experience of using and listening to the equipment in question.
That's a fact, so some people need to embrace it and accept it, instead of fuelling tedious circular debates, when the point was made very clearly about 10 pages back!
Marco.
chris@panteg
15-07-2012, 10:25
10 pages in some people still missing the point in spectacular fashion...
What actually happened:
Bloke A trashes the Technics says there is no point spending lots of money modding one when you can buy an off the shelf deck from e.g Rega that is just as good in fact in his opinion a lot better
Bloke B who is perhaps a little evangelical about trying to point people in the direction of a good sound but nevertheless means well points out that no off the shelf solution will sound like a modded Technics so if that is the sound you want there is no off the shelf alternative and it is misleading people to suggest that there is.
Cue 8 pages of 'all opinions are valid' type posts.:rolleyes:
Sorry Martin , quite right of course .
The problem is as I see it , bloke A looks like he has an agenda and a dislike for bloke B , bloke B also seems to have an agenda and a dislike for bloke A
Hi Chris,
I find that last sentence amazing ! You are a guy who would go to great lengths to obtain that little bit extra improvement for your system , am I not mistaken ? Example being your recent experiments with tonearm cables , getting an SP10 sorted might seem daunting but Richard (vantage) is the man , and he's not looking to top up his pension pot ! Err hum if you know what I mean .
Sure, Chris. I might have considered it had any of the SP10 MK2s I've heard to date notably outperformed my modded SL-1210, which would've given me some food for thought.
Given that this hasn't been the case (not even remotely), then I trust you can understand my reluctance to embark on what would be an expensive and time-consuming project, with no guarantee that I'd end up in a better position than I am now! :)
If I buy another turntable it'll either be one of Audio Grail's superb fully reconditioned 'gunmetal' finished 301s, originally used by the BBC, or a lovely TD124, with all the Swissonor mods fitted to it, either of which would be used in addition to the Techy.
Marco.
Sorry Martin , quite right of course .
The problem is as I see it , bloke A looks like he has an agenda and a dislike for bloke B , bloke B also seems to have an agenda and a dislike for bloke A
Both blokes have agendas, no question - one owns and runs a hi-fi forum the other has his own hi-fi blog so both are obviously quite keen on actively spreading the word. Nothing intrinsically wrong in having an agenda. As to disliking each other, well if they have never met then it is just keyboard warrior stuff and not, I feel, to be taken as seriously as a vicious punch up in the street outside the pub.
Both blokes have agendas, no question - one owns and runs a hi-fi forum the other has his own hi-fi blog so both are obviously quite keen on actively spreading the word.
Actively spreading the word about the Techy is precisely what I set out to do, and have done very successfully. The difference being, of course, that in my case, regarding the Techy, I have a genuine and thorough understanding of what it is I'm talking about!
Sorry Martin , quite right of course .
The problem is as I see it , bloke A looks like he has an agenda and a dislike for bloke B , bloke B also seems to have an agenda and a dislike for bloke A
And of course, bloke B wouldn't have felt that way, had bloke A not written his prejudiced bile in the first place! ;)
Study 'cause and effect'. I also had no knowledge of, or contact with, Marc Phillips up until that point.
Now I really must insist that this part of the discussion ends here, as it's becoming tediously circular, therefore any further posts of that nature will be removed without further warning.
Marco.
chris@panteg
15-07-2012, 11:13
Actively spreading the word about the Techy is precisely what I set out to do, and have done very successfully. The difference being, of course, that in my case, I have a genuine and thorough understanding of what it is I'm talking about!
And of course, bloke B wouldn't have felt that way, had bloke A not written his prejudiced bile in the first place! ;)
Study 'cause and effect'.
Now I really must insist that that part of the discussion ends there, as it's becoming tediously circular, therefore any further posts of that nature will be removed without further warning.
Marco.
Sorry Marco , I realize my last post seems to be shit stirring , I'm sorry it looks that way but
I can understand your reaction to his comments , I would forget him , it's not worth it:)
No worries, Chris. I had done until someone resurrected the thread! ;)
Marco.
After previous discussions we've had on the phone regarding TD124's Marco I do hope you acquire one at some point as I would follow your upgrade journey with relish. I am in awe of the design and manufacturing expertise Thorens lavished on the TD124 and if funds become available in the future I would definitely seek one out.
WOStantonCS100
15-07-2012, 23:31
The 1210 has a nice engineblock, everything else is crap.
ARTSASAT:
http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz80/TCKA1ESa/IMG_0353.jpg
ARTSASAT:
:eyebrows:
After previous discussions we've had on the phone regarding TD124's Marco I do hope you acquire one at some point as I would follow your upgrade journey with relish. I am in awe of the design and manufacturing expertise Thorens lavished on the TD124 and if funds become available in the future I would definitely seek one out.
No doubt it'll happen at some point, Dave. Barry has kindly offered to loan me one of his TD124s, for an extended listen, so when that happens I'll get a good handle on what it's like, compared with the Techy.
I'm a big fan of idlers, done well. I love their rock-solid and 'ballsy' sonic presentation. A Goldring Lenco G99, suitably fettled to the max, is another possible candidate :)
Marco.
ARTSASAT:
:eyebrows:
Sorry, Biff, you've lost me... What's "ARTSASAT"? :scratch:
Marco.
WOStantonCS100
16-07-2012, 16:50
Sorry, Biff, you've lost me... What's "ARTSASAT"? :scratch:
Marco.
Glad you asked.
An "artsasat" is an Automatic Response To Stupid Arse Statements About Techies (1200s).
The correct syntax is "ARTSASAT: -> picture of your Techy (to annoy the culprit) -> ARTSASAT:"
I tried to disable this service on my Win7 laptop yesterday; but, you know how Microsoft is. :lol: I can try to turn it off again today if you prefer.
chris@panteg
16-07-2012, 17:29
Well done Biff , it was a daftee statement .
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