View Full Version : Mc cartridge recomendations
oceanobsession
03-05-2012, 20:07
Having waited 6 weeks for a lyra delos ive cancelled it today, cant wait any
longer, so im looking for some suggestions, i fear the lyra maybe to bright for
me anyway, these are the cartridges ive had, in my system
1. AT33PTG liked this very much but it needs more midrange body
2. ATOC9 not for me over etched at the top end brighter than above.
3. DENON DL 103 has body not over hyped at the top bit grainy/ ragged but great for the money
4. SPU CLASSIC -E best yet smooth loverly midrange but need more gain in my system
Im looking for something thats not overly bright at the top has body in the
mids tracks well smooth has a good output £1000 ish. i suppose detail is not as important as the tonal colour/sound is to me
i have considered the the spu synergy which has a 0.5mv output.
Hi Phil,
Trust me on this, mate, as someone who *knows* what it is you're looking for, and what it is that you didn't like/didn't work with the other cartridges... Personally, I think you had a lucky escape with the Delos, as I doubt it'd have been your thing.
The answer is a Shelter 501 II: http://www.needledoctor.com/Shelter-501-Phono-Cartridge
I make that, at today's exchange rate, around £740. The Shelter ticks all of your boxes. Check out some of the reviews... You'll love it! :)
Marco.
I swear that before I saw Marco's reply, I was thinking along the same lines and possibly the 5000, which may well be well over a grand for all I know. I also liked the ZYX R100 when I last heard it, but I understand that the last few years may well have brought about a substantial price increase.
Many others too (the "D" and "O" words), but I don't want to further confuse the issue. Just stick with the Shelter, which Marco's heard, knowing the others so well :)
oceanobsession
03-05-2012, 20:55
Hi marco, 2juki seems to be the guy for the shelters, i dont think theres a
dealer in the uk, if i could drop on one of the spu's with the higher output
at a good price i would take a chance, i dont want to change any part of my
system really, my shahinian arcs are early ones with steel tweeter and something that is to bright will set your teeth on edge,103 and spu were fine but at33ptg was getting close and oc9 was teeth on edge,i think the compliance of the shelter would go better with my turntable, ive listed my
thoughts on the cartridges ive had, so that if you would come to that same
conclusion as me then the recomendation is more likely to be right have you
ever heard the benz micro cartridges.
Hi Phil,
I agree with your conclusions, and yes, Benz cartridges are also very good. They're not bright sounding at all, but do everything high-end MCs should do. Benz are like a cross between a Dynavector and an Audio Technica.
However, IMO, they don't have the 'soul' factor of the Shelter, which has many of the traits you loved about the SPU, but with the higher output you need. Another one to consider would be the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, which is also somewhat SPU-like, in terms of its way of music-making, but with higher output.
If I were you, however, I'd shop around for the cheapest Shelter 501 II you can find (2juki are very reliable) and pull the trigger on it. I seriously doubt you'd be disappointed :)
Marco.
+ 1 on the Shelter 501; at that price it's a bargain.
Just as an alternative, the ZYX R 100 is a really good cartridge; 2juki is currently selling both standard and high output versions for 512-532 pounds respectively.
Hi John,
Agreed on the ZYX (as Dave mentioned earlier).
However, I suspect that it would be just a touch too 'hi-fi' sounding for Phil. We've chatted on the phone, and I've got a pretty good handle on what it is he's looking for, and IMO, that's best served by the Shelter :)
Marco.
No argument here; The Shelter would be my first choice too.
2juki is highly recommended, I bought my Shelter 5000 from him. He has one here for $1420, perhaps just within your budget but watch the duty/VAT.
Having owned both, it's quite a bit better than the 501 Mk.II.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shelter-5000-MC-Cartridge-0-5mV-Output-made-Japan-/370545514767?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56463bd90f
Yup - if Phil can stretch to the 5000, even better! :)
Marco.
The 5000 in the eurozone goes between 1500-1600 euros - so even at 1420$ and with UK customs etc put in, he could still get a great deal on it.
oceanobsession
03-05-2012, 22:35
Thanks folks for all your ideas/opinions, the shelter 5000 does look a good
idea for me, i will need to check my tonearm height to make sure i can get
my tonearm level.
Hi Phil,
I agree with your conclusions, and yes, Benz cartridges are also very good. They're not bright sounding at all, but do everything high-end MCs should do. Benz are like a cross between a Dynavector and an Audio Technica.
However, IMO, they don't have the 'soul' factor of the Shelter, which has many of the traits you loved about the SPU, but with the higher output you need. Another one to consider would be the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, which is also somewhat SPU-like, in terms of its way of music-making, but with higher output.
If I were you, however, I'd shop around for the cheapest Shelter 501 II you can find (2juki are very reliable) and pull the trigger on it. I seriously doubt you'd be disappointed :)
Marco.
Wood Benz Micro cartridges have amazingly sweet strings, sometimes too sweet and perceived as coloration. You may try its wood ones and the open-design ones, the latter a bit less sweet and with more air, though I bet you would like the wood ones more. Once you hear violin via a wood Benz, addiction guaranteed.
Concerto Audio
04-05-2012, 10:22
Please find the attached articles from Absolute Sound about Shelter cartridges.
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae309/shamzgti/CONCERTO%20AUDIO/Page1.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae309/shamzgti/CONCERTO%20AUDIO/page2.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae309/shamzgti/CONCERTO%20AUDIO/page3.jpg
http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae309/shamzgti/CONCERTO%20AUDIO/page4.jpg
Concerto Audio
04-05-2012, 11:00
Hi Marco
Just wondering whether posting the article from AS contravene the copyright law etc,etc
....if it does Marco could you please remove the article.:scratch:
Thanks
Thanks folks for all your ideas/opinions, the shelter 5000 does look a good
idea for me, i will need to check my tonearm height to make sure i can get
my tonearm level.
Nice one, Phil. Please report back with what you end up with! :)
Marco.
P.S Allan, thanks for that - noted.
Hi Marco
Just wondering whether posting the article from AS contravene the copyright law etc,etc
....if it does Marco could you please remove the article.:scratch:
Thanks
Hi Santosh,
I don't believe it does, so I've restored the posts for you - most interesting article, btw. I shall comment more later! :)
Marco.
Shelter prices, alas, have gone up, from those advertised in the review..:(
Current prices in the US (prices in parenthesis are in Germany in euros) are something like this:
901: 2.600$ (1900)
9000: 4.200$ (2500)
Harmony: 5.500$ (3800)
PaulStewart
04-05-2012, 21:12
Hi Santosh,
I don't believe it does, so I've restored the posts for you - most interesting article, btw. I shall comment more later! :)
Marco.
Hi Marco, Just a quick note about the copyright issue, If the article reproduced from AS was reproduced for the purpose of discussion or critique of that article that would count as fair dealing. As this was merely a re posting of the article as part of an ongoing thread, then legally it's iffy.
Paul S
From the advert:
It would be fair to say that Shelter built its reputation for making “music-first” phono cartridges, throught three of its first moving-coil models imported to this country: the 501 MKII, the 901 and 90X.
Through exhibiting different sonic personae and performance traits, these three shared one unmistakable common denominator, namely a sense of ease and grace that told listeners these cartridges were more about capturing the essential feel of the music than about punching checklists of audiophile virtues.
That *so* sums up the traits I value in, not only phono cartridges, but in audio equipment in general! :)
It's precisely what I value in terms of how the SPU reproduces music, and why I hate cartridges and equipment that do the opposite!! :rolleyes:
"Punching checklists of audiophile virtues", at the expense of musicality, is unfortunately what too many cartridges do nowadays.
Marco.
Hi Marco, Just a quick note about the copyright issue, If the article reproduced from AS was reproduced for the purpose of discussion or critique of that article that would count as fair dealing. As this was merely a re posting of the article as part of an ongoing thread, then legally it's iffy.
Thanks for that. It's particularly interesting (and timely), as I've just quoted a section of the article as part of this discussion! :)
Marco.
oceanobsession
09-05-2012, 17:10
Just a quick update, im still looking for something, very nearly bought a new
shelter 5000 but i suppose im looking for something to come along seconhand, or x dem , then i saw a ortofon spu on ebay for £150 without
headshell it had eleptical written on the side, so ive taken a chance and it
turned up today, ive had a look under the microscope and the diamond is in
fine shape so ive made a wooden spacer put a pound coin on top of my adc headshell and it sounds as wonderfull as my other so im pleased as punch,
this can be a keeper not costing me a fortune, now i can await another bargain.
That's great, Phil, but I don't get it...
If you had a lack of gain before with your previous SPU, which correct me if I'm wrong, was the main reason you sold it, then how can having the same cartridge again (although an older version) improve things, when the gain issue will remain as before? :scratch:
Marco.
oceanobsession
09-05-2012, 18:15
Marco my prevoius spu played everything better in my system, but gaucho
by steely dan seemed to be a little bloated and im not so sure it was tracking
it all that well, when i played the same record with the at33 ptg it was spot on, ive since found out that the record is bass heavy, and yes i could do with 0.4mv, well i suppose if you are paying proper money for things your
not prepered to except shortfalls, i dont know the age of this spu but it has
eleptical diamond written on the side, ive checked and it is elepticl, its also
not worn, and sounds great i think its a classic-e but who knows, its as good as the other one, i love how smooth they sound, i will try to pick up a proper
spacer and put it in my sumico headshell , unless i can pick up an original headshell at the right price,im still going to look for something else aswell.
I have picked up tony bennett songs for the jet set, which is mono it has a
song on it called sweet lorraine joe morsala on clarinet, the spu plays this
superb absolutly superb.
Hi Phil,
Gotcha... Well, I guess the obvious question to ask is how does Gaucho sound with your new SPU, compared with the one you had before?
Does it still sound bass heavy? If not, then I've no idea why, as what you've got now is basically the same cartridge as you had before, with identical electrical requirements... :scratch:
I find nearly all Steely Dan albums, although well recorded, have a rather 'warm tone', typical of many 1970s vinyl cuts (although the album was introduced in 1980), and if the balance of your system leans towards the cuddly side of neutral, an SPU will expose the characteristics of both the recording and your system.
What I've learned about the SPU, after literally 100s of hours fine-tuning the ones I've had, is that they are extremely fussy of VTA, and the tiniest of tiny adjustments, in order to get the tonearm BANG ON level with the record surface, is enough to go from a sound which is merely good, to something that is quite spectacular, so perseverance there pays dividends!
Tracking force is the same - you want it to be BANG ON 4g... Not 4.030g or 4.015g, on your digital scales, or anything else other than that, but 4g exactly!! Ditto with azimuth, which must be BANG ON level, and anti-skate must also be optimally set - all of which are essential in order to get that big fat diamond sitting securely in the groove, and staying there!
Furthermore, unfortunately, you'll never hear the SPU's true magic unless it's used through an optimally matched SUT and valve preamp. The SPU is very sensitive to correct loading and gain, and the window where the sweet-spot lies is incredibly narrow, which is where a specially matched SUT comes in. Experience also shows that valves 'unlock' the magic of an SPU, more than almost any solid-state phono stage I've heard.
Owning one of these superb music-making devices is a veritable labour of love, but when you get it right, the results are breathtaking, to the extent that you really don't feel you're listening to a recording, such is the 'humanity' of the musical presentation! I hope that you get there with it in the end, as I suspect you're still a wee bit off yet :)
Marco.
If you're going to play US artists on vinyl, PLEASE try to get US made discs, or at least, discs made from US metalwork. Having compared Steely Dan and Talking Heads LP's years ago, I can assure you that UK cut of Gaucho will sound soggy compared to the original US LP cut (or CD issue) :)
That's a good point, Dave! Any idea why the UK version would sound "soggy", and the US one not?
TBH, I've heard plenty of rather 'phat', flat, and dull sounding vinyl cuts, from the 70s, but yes, mainly UK pressings. It must've been something to do with the mastering procedure back then.
Anthony TD has a theory that it was during the transitional period when valve mixing desks, and some other key analogue equipment, in studios, was replaced by inferior quality solid-state kit, until they got the latter up to the same standards as the former...
I think there's something in that.
Anyway, there's really no excuse for it, as it all it does is add to be perception of the uninitiated, that vinyl has a 'warm' and coloured sound, when in fact, done right, it should sound as dynamic (in fact, even more so) as CD!
Marco.
Audioman
10-05-2012, 09:21
Marco your comments gel nicely with a discussion (err argument) I have been having with certain posters on the SH forum. They are dismissing the superb new Fleetwood Mac 45 rpm titles as inferior to first presses. Frankly most of these people generaly have a habit of putting down any high quality reissue that comes along. One thing I have noticed is that several have LP12's of a flavour prior to the more recent pricey mods.
Anyway they appear to favour these muddy sounding pressings probably because they are smooth and inoffensive at loud volumes. I have found that the AT comes into it's own on this type of record with its detail digging and brighter balance in some cases almost eliminating the muddyness. I can see this type of mastering being rather dull with some of your favoured cartridges.
Hi Paul,
Apologies for the delay in replying - been too busy elsewhere!
Marco your comments gel nicely with a discussion (err argument) I have been having with certain posters on the SH forum. They are dismissing the superb new Fleetwood Mac 45 rpm titles as inferior to first presses. Frankly most of these people generaly have a habit of putting down any high quality reissue that comes along. One thing I have noticed is that several have LP12's of a flavour prior to the more recent pricey mods.
Lol - the problem is that most of these characters are so wrapped up in age-old, blinkered bias, that they wouldn't know what superior sound was, if it jumped up and bit them on the bum!
Anyway they appear to favour these muddy sounding pressings probably because they are smooth and inoffensive at loud volumes. I have found that the AT comes into it's own on this type of record with its detail digging and brighter balance in some cases almost eliminating the muddyness.
I think you're absolutely right. However, the problem, in my experience, is that you get the opposite effect, with the AT sounding rather lightweight and lacking in gravitas, on better recorded cuts. Effectively all that's happening is the AT's inherent bass-lightness is ameliorating the muddiness of the recording. I guess a lot of this will depend on what music you listen to, and how well recorded it is, or otherwise.
I can see this type of mastering being rather dull with some of your favoured cartridges.
Lol - not at all. I'm afraid that sort of comment shows your inexperience of SPUs, or at least SPUs, when optimally set-up and partnered.
I have Gaucho, on vinyl - one of the early pressings - and it sounds very good, but the SPU ruthlessly reveals the recording's intrinsically 'plummy' and overall rather 'warm tone', certainly in comparison with how crisp and 'dynamically alive' vinyl recordings should sound, when done properly.
You should appreciate that the hackneyed, stereotypical sound of some vintage SPUs, is fundamentally NOT how modern varieties perform, in the right system. In the right system, they are musically accurate, and have a frequency response, which is all but flat. As such, there are very few cartridges in existence that I'd swap mine for! :)
Marco.
Marco your comments gel nicely with a discussion (err argument) I have been having with certain posters on the SH forum. They are dismissing the superb new Fleetwood Mac 45 rpm titles as inferior to first presses. Frankly most of these people generaly have a habit of putting down any high quality reissue that comes along. One thing I have noticed is that several have LP12's of a flavour prior to the more recent pricey mods.
Anyway they appear to favour these muddy sounding pressings probably because they are smooth and inoffensive at loud volumes. I have found that the AT comes into it's own on this type of record with its detail digging and brighter balance in some cases almost eliminating the muddyness. I can see this type of mastering being rather dull with some of your favoured cartridges.
There are actually quite a few people, and many without LP12's and some with exceptional systems, who feel that the Hoffman mastering of Rumours is not perfect, me among them.
I compared the 33 version pretty extensively to an original Canadian pressing here:
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19938&start=60
and, as you will see later in the thread, the 45 was compared by a group of listeners with a similar conclusion.
That is not to say the Hoffman reissue is bad. I think, in fact, it is very good in some areas while being compromised in others. The same could be said of a high quality original (and there were a lot of low quality originals or 3rd or 4th pressings with Rumours); it's certainly not perfect either. In the end, I felt comfortable keeping my original and trading the remaster back to the record dealer.
Mike Lavigne was another listener who was not particularly impressed with the Hoffman remaster (a lot less impressed, in fact, than I was) and he outlined that in a thread at Audiogon that has unfortunately been deleted but you can search his name, perhaps with the words audio system or something similar to see his frame of reference in terms of equipment.
I like a lot of Hoffman's work, particularly the Music Matters Blue Notes as they are prohibitively expensive as originals with the reissues being very good. With stuff like Rumours, though, which is commonly found in the $1 bins or thrift shops here, I just don't see the point of paying big money for a reissue provided the original sounds as good. In the case of Rumours, although both original and reissue are compromised in different ways and not perfect, I would say that is the case.
I have Gaucho, on vinyl - one of the early pressings - and it sounds very good, but the SPU ruthlessly reveals the recording's intrinsically 'plummy' and overall rather 'warm tone', certainly in comparison with how crisp and dynamically 'alive' vinyl recordings should sound, when done properly.
Marco.
Not sure what is at work here for you Marco, unless it is the issue that DSJR addressed above and you are listening to an inferior (possibly UK) pressing of Gaucho.
Yes, the Steely Dan stuff may be described as "warm"; I'd say it was warmest around AJA and got progressively "less warm" as you get to Gaucho and something like Fagen's Nightfly (digital as it may be). Dynamically challenged or not "crisp" though? It's either your pressing or the equipment, so let's just say it's probably the pressing.
This is very often a "country of origin" (or close to it anyway) thing with inferior metal parts being shipped across the Atlantic for respective pressings. Possibly an issue related to pressings as they get further and further away from the first as well.
I've experienced it both ways, with North American artists generally sounding much better on North American pressed vinyl and European artists sounding better on European vinyl. It is not always the case but I would say that it would be in the vast majority of cases.
Audioman
11-05-2012, 20:20
There are actually quite a few people, and many without LP12's and some with exceptional systems, who feel that the Hoffman mastering of Rumours is not perfect, me among them.
I compared the 33 version pretty extensively to an original Canadian pressing here:
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19938&start=60
and, as you will see later in the thread, the 45 was compared by a group of listeners with a similar conclusion.
That is not to say the Hoffman reissue is bad. I think, in fact, it is very good in some areas while being compromised in others. The same could be said of a high quality original (and there were a lot of low quality originals or 3rd or 4th pressings with Rumours); it's certainly not perfect either. In the end, I felt comfortable keeping my original and trading the remaster back to the record dealer.
Mike Lavigne was another listener who was not particularly impressed with the Hoffman remaster (a lot less impressed, in fact, than I was) and he outlined that in a thread at Audiogon that has unfortunately been deleted but you can search his name, perhaps with the words audio system or something similar to see his frame of reference in terms of equipment.
I like a lot of Hoffman's work, particularly the Music Matters Blue Notes as they are prohibitively expensive as originals with the reissues being very good. With stuff like Rumours, though, which is commonly found in the $1 bins or thrift shops here, I just don't see the point of paying big money for a reissue provided the original sounds as good. In the case of Rumours, although both original and reissue are compromised in different ways and not perfect, I would say that is the case.
Hi Blake. I'm sure the Hoffman remaster is not perfect as much as a first pressing US or UK is not. It's just it is clearly audibly superior by a wide margin IMHO. There are plenty of remasters I can't say the same about. To know which version is more correct we would need access to the master tape so I don't think either of us are qualified to answer that question. My point is there are a number of audiophiles out there that insist on first original sounds best no matter what. I suspect that they prefer the sound of added compression and a warmer presentation a factor that may or may not be system dependent.
As for Gaucho. My go to is in fact an early US copy that certainly isn't muddy but doesn't have the thin bright sound of later European repressings. Some of the ABC Steely Dan titles can sound a little muddy with some cartridges in spite of the fact that they are very well recorded. So I think that Marco's observations may be system influenced to some extent. I do agree often UK pressings have a fuller warmer balance than the US equivalent.
jazzpiano
11-05-2012, 20:20
Hello,
Back to the Shelter's "virtues" - Which cartridges, other than the Shelter but at or below its price point do members feel "puts the music first"?
Best,
Barry
Hi Blake,
Not sure what is at work here for you Marco, unless it is the issue that DSJR addressed above and you are listening to an inferior (possibly UK) pressing of Gaucho.
It's the pressing, pure and simple! :)
Yes, the Steely Dan stuff may be described as "warm"; I'd say it was warmest around AJA and got progressively "less warm" as you get to Gaucho and something like Fagen's Nightfly (digital as it may be).
I totally agree. What you describe above is also the result of my experience.
Dynamically challenged or not "crisp" though? It's either your pressing or the equipment, so let's just say it's probably the pressing.
Lol - we're getting down to semantics... My version of Gaucho sounds very good, but (although produced in 1980), to my ears, exhibits that typical 1970s 'analogue euphony', which for me is either a by-product of the studio equipment used in those days, or an intentional effect 'factored-in' by the recording engineers - or perhaps both!
For example, I find the recent albums of Kate Bush, such as Aerial and 50 Words for Snow, are similarly 'warm toned', and mastered in a rather euphonic way. For an example of what I consider to be how vinyl sounds when *really* done properly, then listen to the 180g Chess remaster of Muddy Water's 'Folk Singer', which sounds utterly stunning, and is the total antithesis of 'un-crisp' or dynamically challenged!
It's how vinyl *should* sound, when done right, and when compared, sonically, to the pressing I have of Gaucho, shows the latter up as no more than mediocre. The 180g remaster of Stevie Ray Vaughan's 'Couldn't Stand the Weather', on Pure Pleasure, is another shining example of an outstanding quality vinyl recording.
Spin 'Tin Pan Alley', on a top-notch vinyl rig, and prepare to be gob-smacked!! :eek:
If only all vinyl sounded that way.........
Anyway, I can only report what I hear, in the context of the pressings that I have, and the system I play them on. YMMV :cool:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
11-05-2012, 20:58
Hi Phil
Coming a bit late to this discussion but Benz Micro carts have many of the qualities you are looking for I feel.
I particularly like The Glider of which there are three version one low output, medium and high £745 and the Wood is also lovely for £995 again there are three output versions.
Hi Phil
Coming a bit late to this discussion but Benz Micro carts have many of the qualities you are looking for I feel.
I particularly like The Glider of which there are three version one low output, medium and high £745 and the Wood is also lovely for £995 again there are three output versions.
Agreed. I've always been interested in the Swiss Benz range. Van den Hul modified a few of them.
Hello,
Back to the Shelter's "virtues" - Which cartridges, other than the Shelter but at or below its price point do members feel "puts the music first"?
Best,
Barry
An EMT!
Yes, good shout, Barry! Some Deccas would do it, too :)
Marco.
Yes, good shout, Barry! Some Deccas would do it, too :)
Marco.
Agreed - I should have mentioned Deccas. Maybe not a cartridge for everyone, but the new Deccas are much better behaved than the those made in the '80s.
Regards
...And the 80's ones can be totaly rebuilt to modern performance standards using proper tooling and parts - you know it makes sense :lol:
Hi Paul,
Sorry, I missed this....
So I think that Marco's observations may be system influenced to some extent. I do agree often UK pressings have a fuller warmer balance than the US equivalent.
Lol - not at all. The system is simply revealing the inherently warm tonal balance of the recording itself, in comparison with something inherently 'flatter'.
Gaucho doesn't sound at all "muddy", played on my system, but 'warmed toned', in balance, it most certainly is compared with, say, the likes of Muddy Water's 'Folk Singer', which I referred to earlier, or many other albums I could mention (Bert Jansch 'The Black Swan', would defo be one such example). I've also heard Gaucho played on loads of other systems, many times, and its inherent sonic characteristics remain as a constant, as does that of all Steely Dan albums, from around that period.
Do you have Folk Singer, especially the Chess remaster? If you have, spin it, and then Gaucho, and you'll see exactly what I mean :)
The effect is difficult to put into words...
I'll use an old tape analogy: Gaucho, on the UK pressing which I have, sounds like a good recording made on 'Chrome' tape: warm, detailed and lyrical, but not the last word in lightening fast dynamics or overall 'crispness', using a top tape deck, like a Nakamichi; whereas Folk Singer, sounds like a reference recording made on the finest Metal Master tape: much more 'dynamically alive', 'fresh' and 'sparkly', with a wide-open 'shock factor', which is breathtaking, on the right system.
Those who've used high-quality chrome and metal tapes, with a top-notch tape deck, will know exactly what I mean. Another way of describing it would be to compare old CD mastering categories, from the 1980s: Gaucho would be 'AAD' (or perhaps 'ADD'), sonically, whereas, Folk Singer would be 'DDD'.
I prefer vinyl recordings not to sound 'stereotypically analogue' - I much prefer ones which sound the same as the best CDs (and SACDs) can - and I have plenty examples like that in my collection. I also prefer turntables which don't sound 'stereotypically analogue', which is why I love my modded Techy, as it just sounds as stable and neutral (lacking in euphonic coloration), as do the best CDPs.
Do you see where I'm coming from better now? :cool:
Marco.
Hello,
Back to the Shelter's "virtues" - Which cartridges, other than the Shelter but at or below its price point do members feel "puts the music first"?
Best,
Barry
Transfiguration: The Axia is a great cartridge for its price - and you can now get very good deals on the Spirit (or its HO sibling the Esprit) and the Temper Supreme (used); otherwise, I found the Phase Tech P-3 and P-3G to offer exceptionally good sound at their price points.
Any thoughts on my previous post, Blake or Paul? :)
Marco.
Any thoughts on my previous post, Blake or Paul? :)
Marco.
Hi Marco: I think I understand what you are saying. However, there's probably an element of "you can't get onto the vinyl (or CD or SACD) what wasn't there in the first place" at work here.
By that I mean that recordings like Folk Singer are outrageously dynamic as a result of the performance more than anything else: Muddy, like many of the post war Chicago Blues greats, was a master of dynamics.
Not to say that recording techniques do not factor into the equation because they do and mainstream recording techniques in the 80's may well have contributed to muted dynamics in many recordings (now we have virtually no dynamics in any recordings thanks to the loudness wars). But by the time the 80's rolled around it was really all about multi-track recording. People weren't playing together at the same time, let alone in the same building much of the time.
So a Steely Dan peformance is not a Muddy Waters performance, let alone Muddy parked in a relatively small room with a pretty sparse, essentially all acoustic band. The sound that Steely Dan wanted to achieve may, in fact, have had little to do with dynamics and huge dynamic swings, unlike Muddy's performance, and the fact that it's a recording that consists of many more players and instruments, all run through a mult-track recorder and probably mixed to create a certain type of sound (one in which nothing really takes "precedence") probably contributes in a very big way to what you don't like about it relative to Folk Singer and similar recordings.
It is ironic, though, that after all these years, that live to two track analog recording still represents the pinnacle for many in terms reproducing music in a manner that most approximates its live form. I listen to a lot of late 50's to early 60's jazz on vinyl and am still amazed at what a recording engineer like Roy DuNann at Contemporary and others like him achieved with two microphones and what would be considered prehistoric equipment to most today.
Joe Harley at Audioquest bucked the trend for many years as well, recording live to two track analog into the 90's when it was no longer fashionable (Ronnie Earl and the Broadcasters "Still River" from 1993 is a great example of the sound you are looking for created in a modern environment-if you enjoy Folk Singer you may well like that one as well), but that situation also requires sticking all the musicians in one room and having them play without edits (like Folk Singer), something that doesn't happen much any more.
Audioman
16-05-2012, 06:24
Marco.
I don't think Gaucho realy qualifies as a muddy recording or mastering anyway and I'm sure the overall balance of your system doesn't add warmth. Try Pretzel Logic. For some reason this can sound (attractively) warm and muddy in the wrong system. I found a 'bright' balanced cartridge does improve things greatly here.
I have heard the Classic Records version of Folk Singer and though it sounds impressive it is not a valid comparison. In fact it is not realy suitable for being held up as an illustration of 2 track live in the studio recording. The reason is it is drenched in reverb that was artificialy added post recording. Steve Hoffman wanted to use the original (non reverb) tape for a CD master but the record company would not have it. He actualy hates the added reverb and recons it sounds far better without. It sounds impressive but it isn't natural.
Paul.
Hi guys,
Thanks for your replies; much of what you wrote, I agree with. However, let's not get recording techniques and recording quality mixed up. It's the latter I'm really referring to, when the results obtained are simply a by-product of the studio equipment used at the time, and/or the intention of the artist(s) or recording engineers.
In my experience, a goodly percentage of the rock/pop music output, recorded on vinyl, during the 1970s era, was imbued with what I'd call a 'euphonic patina', and on a wide-bandwidth and ultra-revealing vinyl set-up and system (such as others and mine), that effect is ruthlessly showcased, rather than mistaken simply for the inherently 'warm sound' of vinyl itself. It is *precisely* the former effect I'm referring to.
Yes, Paul, Gaucho doesn't qualify as being a muddy recording (far from it), and nor was it born from such mastering techniques, but to my ears, the sound is, shall we say, on the warm side of neutral. Perhaps a better example of what we're discussing would be the early (standard issue) Genesis albums, on vinyl, which depending on the specific pressing, can sound as if someone's draped a thick towel over all the mics, transferring the sound from the band's voices and instruments, to the mixing desk...! :spew:
I abhor, with a passion, 'dark' sounding vinyl cuts, imbued with a 'foggy bloom'. If I had to choose between one sound or the other (thick and 'phat', or thin and bright), I'd always choose the latter, as a decent system and T/T usually ameliorates the worst excesses of this, but often can do little to fix the former. Of course, I'd much rather that recordings were perfect in the first place!
However, rock and pop recordings don't have to sound shit. Listen to almost any album by The Beatles, for example, even the originals in mono (indeed often those are the best of all), and the superb music on those albums sounds dynamic, 'alive', 'punchy', and as fresh as a daisy - just like vinyl should!
I firmly believe that one of the main reasons for that was the superb valve microphones and mixing desks (and 'all-analogue') studios, used in those days, not to mention the speakers used for monitoring purposes, which in the 70s started to disappear, due to the establishment of (in some ways) inferior solid-state equipment, and 'squawk-boxes', used as studio monitor loudspeakers...
Your further thoughts on this matter would be appreciated :cool:
Marco.
PaulStewart
16-05-2012, 20:38
If I had to choose between one sound or the other (thick and 'phat', or thin and bright), I'd always choose the latter, as a decent system and T/T usually ameliorates the worst excesses of the latter, but often can do little to fix the former.
THe point is that a "good" TT should not change the character of the sound, even if it is to "repair" it. You should be hearing what's on the vinyl, as it was put down on the master tape by the producer. One of the problems with all recordings as been the mastering process, a few years ago you could divide cutting engineers into three classes. The a'holes who had decided they were part of the creative process and then proceeded to screw up the musicians and producers hard work. Next were the lazy B'stards who just limited the crap out of everything (making lots of dynamic stuff dark an muddy) and finally there were the great cutters like Tony Bachelor of TAM Studios who went out of his way to transcribe what you had recorded onto the acetate.
Hi Paul,
THe point is that a "good" TT should not change the character of the sound, even if it is to "repair" it. You should be hearing what's on the vinyl, as it was put down on the master tape by the producer.
Indeed. However, there are some systems (and turntables) that succeed in doing the above, but without 'trashing' the recording, thus making said recordings listenable, and also retaining the 'musical message', if you see what I mean :)
I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of what you've written.
Marco.
Another thumbs up for the Shelter range. I bought a Shelter 5000 from 2Juki a few years ago for £820 delivered, although I think they may have gone up a bit since then. Its the finest cartridge I've yet heard this side of a Zyx Airy. Sublime sounding, great dynamics and buttery smooth without loss of detail. 2Juki betters any UK prices even with vat/duty and he's utterly reliable.
oceanobsession
16-05-2012, 22:04
Well i seem to have stirred a few opinions with the gaucho recording.anyway
looks like im going for a ortofon kadenza bronze if things work out ive purchased
it online with a 15% saving, could all go tits up still but hopfully ive got a good
deal. i have a feeling that the shelter prefors a step up transformer so this is one of the reasons ive gone with the bronze, plus if ive any problems its garanteed in this country, cheers all for your help with this purchase, hope its
the right choice.
I bought a Shelter 5000 from 2Juki a few years ago for £820 delivered, although I think they may have gone up a bit since then. Its the finest cartridge I've yet heard this side of a Zyx Airy. Sublime sounding, great dynamics and buttery smooth without loss of detail.
Spot on :)
On the subject of Gaucho, my UK pressing is not in any way warm, it simply isn't cold or harsh. The recorded dynamics are superb, the soundstage wide and it's a very enjoyable record to listen to. Listening to Time Out of Mind, the experience is visceral.
I have the SACD, too, yet the record still beats it.
oceanobsession
18-05-2012, 22:08
On the subject of Gaucho, my UK pressing is not in any way warm, it simply isn't cold or harsh. The recorded dynamics are superb, the soundstage wide and it's a very enjoyable record to listen to. Listening to Time Out of Mind, the experience is visceral.
I have the SACD, too, yet the record still beats it.
I have two pressings of gaucho, love this album, the 33ptg and this album
were a match made in heaven, i would say the record has the body which the cartridge lacks, the cartridge that plays the most vinyl well is the one to go for, the 33ptg for the money is a bargain, but after owning a spu maybe
it would sound a bit soulless to me now, hope the cadenza bronze comes
somwhere between the two.
I sometimes switch to my 33PTG just to remind myself of what a good cartridge it is for the price. It is in no way embarrassed compared with the Shelter, it just has a little less of everything: body, as you say, dynamics, bass welly, liquid vocals. I can't think of much better for the £500 I paid.
The Shelter, though, is utterly superb.
Hi Phil,
I have two pressings of gaucho, love this album, the 33ptg and this album were a match made in heaven, i would say the record has the body which the cartridge lacks...
I know exactly what you mean. Gaucho is a good recording, but for me it is definitely NOT a neutral one, especially in the bass region, which is exactly why you're hearing what you're hearing, with both the SPU and 33PTG.
the cartridge that plays the most vinyl well is the one to go for, the 33ptg for the money is a bargain, but after owning a spu maybe
it would sound a bit soulless to me now, hope the cadenza bronze comes
somwhere between the two.
Regarding the bit in bold, yup, you're absolutely right. The 'soul factor', for me, however, is fundamentally important, which is why I love the SPU so much, simply because it virtually removes the sensation that one is listening to merely a recording.
No other cartridge I've heard so far does this.
I think you'll love the Cadenza Bronze, as it straddles the middle ground between an SPU and the 33PTG. When you get the cartridge, pop up here with it, as I'd love to hear it on my T/T, through the ST80-SE SUT, which as with the SPU, is talior-made for the Cadenza :cool:
Marco.
Marco is spot-on with his reccomentation but i want you to know my personal experience
with analoque.Mind you,our tastes are the same despite this particular cartridge.
Anyways,one of the cartridges i own is a vanDenHul "Black Beaty" known ,as all VDHs, for
its brightness.With my Tom Evans "The Groove" it sounds magical, with my EAR 324 which uses step-up transformers it lacks body and sounds bright and the strangests thing is that it gives me the impression that it does not fully extents itno high frequencies. What i am trying to say is,you have to match your cartridge with your phono stage otherwise you'll be dissapointed with the sound.
Agreed, Yiangos, and you have to match the phono amplification with the system too. I've come across step-up transformers where, no matter what earthing arrangement I used, I could not get rid of hum. I also had a phono amp do that at playback volumes and it annoyed the hell out of me.
.... i have a feeling that the shelter prefors a step up transformer so this is one of the reasons ive gone with the bronze...
I'm sure you've made a great choice, however, the Cadenza output is less than the Shelter so both will need a SUT or a head amp...
Patrick Dixon
19-05-2012, 12:51
I sometimes switch to my 33PTG just to remind myself of what a good cartridge it is for the price. It is in no way embarrassed compared with the Shelter, it just has a little less of everything: body, as you say, dynamics, bass welly, liquid vocals. I can't think of much better for the £500 I paid.
I had an AT33PTG but recently gave it away. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it's just I bought a Decca. Well, I bought a Decca and then another and another ...
None of my Deccas cost £500 or more, and they just completely trounce the AT33PTG, or any other cartridge I've owned or heard. They just get more off the record and sound more real than anything else for me.
I don't really understand why anyone would bother with anything else!
oceanobsession
19-05-2012, 15:21
I'm sure you've made a great choice, however, the Cadenza output is less than the Shelter so both will need a SUT or a head amp...
I will be using a nick gorham moving coil valve phono stage so should be ok.
Hi Patrick,
None of my Deccas cost £500 or more, and they just completely trounce the AT33PTG, or any other cartridge I've owned or heard. They just get more off the record and sound more real than anything else for me.
I don't really understand why anyone would bother with anything else!
Have you heard an SPU (in properly matched system)?
I too love Deccas, and understand exactly where you're coming from. However, the SPU also has a 'magic' all of its own, which is different to that of the Decca, but no less beguiling.
I've compared both the Decca London Blue and Gold, in my system, against the SPU, and whilst appreciating and acknowledging the enviable (and unique) traits of Deccas, I chose the SPU, simply because it does things with music no other cartridge I've heard is capable of.
Marco.
Patrick Dixon
20-05-2012, 09:54
No, haven't heard an SPU (at least not that I remember). I went off Ortofon big time when they failed to even bother responding to a technical enquiry about an old Ortofon arm, but none the less spammed me through their emailing list.
I'm not entirely convinced that a standard Blue or Gold is completely representative of the best a Decca has to offer; I have a Blue that's been completely rebuilt to Super Gold spec and I've gone on to fit it into a wooden 'DeccaBod' which has improved it still further. However I think my SC4E that was rebuilt by John Wright last year is even better, and I also have a standard C4E that I will send him to do the same too (it doesn't sound quite as good as it is). I haven't heard anybody else's Decca either, so maybe they just require a particular setup to work properly, but from my experience I find it odd that people post about them not really doing bass and being 'coloured' and stuff.
I just think the Deccas quite literally get closer to the groove. I don't think they do anything with the music other than play what's there, so if you want 'musicality' you have to play something with it already on.
No, haven't heard an SPU (at least not that I remember). I went off Ortofon big time when they failed to even bother responding to a technical enquiry about an old Ortofon arm, but none the less spammed me through their emailing list.
That's a nightmare. I'd likely feel the same way, after having had such an experience. However, are you talking about Ortofon in Denmark, or Henley, the UK distributors?
If it's the latter, then I'm rather surprised, as I've had nothing but exemplary service from Henley. Indeed, there is a thread here all about that, after an initial tale of woe: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14363&highlight=ortofon+rs-212d
It's a long thread, but you might find it interesting reading.
I'm not entirely convinced that a standard Blue or Gold is completely representative of the best a Decca has to offer...
Oh sure, those were the only ones I've heard in my system, and have compared with my SPU. I also heard the top London Reference, recently, at Scalford Hall, in a Salvation T/T with Terminator air-bearing tonearm. I do have a good handle on what Deccas are about.
I haven't heard anybody else's Decca either, so maybe they just require a particular setup to work properly, but from my experience I find it odd that people post about them not really doing bass and being 'coloured' and stuff.
For me, that's bollocks, or simply just the result of poor set-up and/or use of inappropriate ancillaries. When set-up and partnered properly, Deccas lack neither bass, nor sound coloured. Fortunately, the MM phono stage in my Croft preamp LOVES Deccas (as they're Glenn's cartridge of choice), so I know all too well what Deccas sound like when performing at their best, and the results are very good indeed!
I just think the Deccas quite literally get closer to the groove. I don't think they do anything with the music other than play what's there, so if you want 'musicality' you have to play something with it already on.
Deccas also have their own 'sonic signature' (house sound), as do ALL cartridges, but fortunately (like the SPU), it's one which is faithful to the music, and not to merely punching checklists of 'audiophile virtues'. Both the Decca and SPU are from an era where faithful and realistic music reproduction came first.
Marco.
Sorry to butt in here, but Decca's (and possibly SPU's too?) can be a bit of a marmite cartridge. The old Decca's were badly assembled, unreliable and the lower models had a HUGE resonance peak at 15 - 20kHz, which could overload phono stages, making it worse than it really was, and the lop sided compliance is a nightmare for some arms. HiFi Dave no longer has a Gold on dem and I've been on at him, without much success so far, to try a Jubilee, as the more solid body may make for an interesting upgrade on the Super Gold-in-a-pod that he had on dem before, which sounded awful on one occasion and stunning the next (maybe he'd been "at it" in between visits :lol:). Lyra's, Ortofon's mainstream MC's, benz and Shelters etc etc make far "easier" pickups for general music enjoyment in the average top end system I feel, but at least the current Decca range is fully supported for retips and old model rebuilds...
I wonder how good a C4E Decca could be these days with Paratrace/Microscanner style tip fitted? - I believe the moving internals are similar to the current models as compliance was significantly increased over the older conical tip models.
Hi Dave,
Sorry to butt in here, but Decca's (and possibly SPU's too?) can be a bit of a marmite cartridge.
I know exactly where you're coming from, but like Patrick says, about the Decca: "I don't really understand why anyone would bother with anything else!"
When you've heard the music-making abilities of either an SPU or Decca, optimised in the right system, there's really nothing NOT to like. Yes, you might still prefer the overall presentation of other cartridges, but in such a scenario, there's nothing "marmite" about the listening experience.
It only becomes so, in my opinion, when the synergy is wrong.
Marco.
Patrick Dixon
20-05-2012, 16:40
That's a nightmare. I'd likely feel the same way, after having had such an experience. However, are you talking about Ortofon in Denmark, or Henley, the UK distributors?
Ortofon Denmark.
The old Decca's were badly assembled, unreliable and the lower models had a HUGE resonance peak at 15 - 20kHz, which could overload phono stages, making it worse than it really was ...
This is what worries me about the internet - you just can't have a resonance over a range as wide as 5KHz. You might have a slightly lifted HF response, but a resonance is a huge gain increase in gain over a very narrow band.
I wonder how good a C4E Decca could be these days with Paratrace/Microscanner style tip fitted? - I believe the moving internals are similar to the current models as compliance was significantly increased over the older conical tip models.AFAIK, John Wright doesn't fit paratraces. And when he fits a line eliptical to a older cartridge, the 'cantilever' gets changed to match the compliance too. I'm sure there are fancy things you can do with coil construction and magnets, but I think the key is getting plenty of mass and damping at the head to help tracking and stop it all vibrating.
Ortofon Denmark.
I'm not offering them any excuses (and you should certainly not have been spammed), but they're unlikely to respond directly to non-trade individuals. Your initial approach, therefore, would've been better made to Henley, who on your behalf, most certainly would've attempted to find out the necessary information :)
Marco.
oceanobsession
22-05-2012, 19:30
My new cartridge arrived today, comes with a set of wires , posh screwdriver
and brush, also three sets of screws different sizes, to mount it, stylus gaurd
is very easy to fit and remove one of the better designs, gain is perfect at 0.4mv, now right from the first record (kings call phil lynott) theres plenty of
body which is what i was after, ill run it in and report further.
Nice one, Phil. Look forward to finding out what you think of it when it's bedded in more :)
Marco.
Hi Dave,
It only becomes so, in my opinion, when the synergy is wrong.
Marco.
Very fair comment, but the marmite bit as far as decca's is concerned is still valid I think, since they could vary so much in their darker days, even before the bloomin' things were mounted in a tonearm - you'd love a good one and loathe a baddie.
Interesting about the Paratrace. I don't know how many "different" stylus profiles are out there, but i assumed, wrongly?, that the Paratrace and Microscanner were basically the same, as may the SAS Jico be. As far as decca compliance is concerned, I understand that the two different levels seen in the C4E and 4RC (think I've got me models right) was carried over into the London models we know so well, the blue being lower compliance and the golds a higher level. I read something to this effect last year but didn't keep the page saved :(
Marco, when my life is more settled, I really would like to hear a properly utilised SPU. I promise to leave the Shures at home ;)
My new cartridge arrived today
Ooh, an ADC headshell, too. Glad you found your audio Nirvana, Phil.
Marco, when my life is more settled, I really would like to hear a properly utilised SPU. I promise to leave the Shures at home ;)
Ha - you'd be very welcome anytime, matey, the Shures and you! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Patrick Dixon
22-05-2012, 20:47
I understand that the two different levels seen in the C4E and 4RC (think I've got me models right) was carried over into the London models we know so well, the blue being lower compliance and the golds a higher level. I read something to this effect last year but didn't keep the page saved :(
The 4RC & Blue are spherical stylus and the C4E & gold are elliptical. AFAIUI the compliance goes with the tip and if you change the tip John Wright changes the compliance to suit.
Apparently, they can be as unreliable as they used to be :(
walpurgis
23-05-2012, 12:35
I agree in general with the various comments about Decca cartridges. I had a 4RC and various Londons and loved them, but they certainly don't fit into any system. The speed, midrange and openness is stunning and the bass is as tight as vinyl playing gets, but the limited tracking ability and top end unruliness can be a problem, along with the prominent surface noise.
I also agree with the various mentions of Zyx MCs, I have three and they are great. Best bargain is the R50 Bloom, it has a sound of it's own, quite rich with a huge soundstage and it is less forward than the R100 series. I can't think of anything that could beat it at the circa £550 it sells for. Geoff.
Patrick Dixon
23-05-2012, 18:54
The speed, midrange and openness is stunning and the bass is as tight as vinyl playing gets, but the limited tracking ability and top end unruliness can be a problem, along with the prominent surface noise.
I agree with all your positives, but only with the surface noise in your negatives. And I put that down to the downside of getting everything off the vinyl ;-)
I'm not offering them any excuses (and you should certainly not have been spammed), but they're unlikely to respond directly to non-trade individuals. Your initial approach, therefore, would've been better made to Henley, who on your behalf, most certainly would've attempted to find out the necessary information :)
Marco.
FWIW I enquired out-of-the-blue to Ortofon Denmark about the effect of the loading of a couple of ADCs I was thinking of using to digitise some LPs would have on the FR using my T3000 SUT. I got a reply from the chief engineer.
I have been an Ortofon user for 30+ years and was quite pleased.
I agree with all your positives, but only with the surface noise in your negatives. And I put that down to the downside of getting everything off the vinyl ;-)
I have a very good friend who demonstrated his Decca SC4E to me last year. he has 2 arms on his turntable, a Hadcock with the Decca and a much more expensive arm with a much more expensive exotic MC cartridge. After hearing both I was astounded by how much more open and clear the Decca was. My wife, a hifi agnostic professional musician, asked him why he ever used the expensive kit (wish I could remember which it was...)
Just remembered, the MC is an Allaerts MC1B, not as enjoyable or clear as the Decca...
FWIW I enquired out-of-the-blue to Ortofon Denmark about the effect of the loading of a couple of ADCs I was thinking of using to digitise some LPs would have on the FR using my T3000 SUT. I got a reply from the chief engineer.
I have been an Ortofon user for 30+ years and was quite pleased.
Nice one, Frank. He must've been off the day that Partick mailed the office! ;)
Marco.
I can only speak as I find, but I'm more than happy with, in order of preference, my EMT's (TSD15, with either the spherical tip or the 'fine 'line' stylii and an XSD15), Ortofons (SPU with spherical tip, and SL15 and SL15/II with elliptical tips) and Denon DL103 (spherical tip).
I am interested in the Koetsu (Rosewood Signature), early Lyra's, the Benz's and the ZYX MC designs
One MC design that also interests me is the Dynavector (XA-1 (?)) where the coil/magnet configuration mimics that of the cutter head.
Of the fixed-coil designs, the only one I'll never abandon is the Decca. The speed, midrange flatness, openess and 'air' is unsupassed as is the sense of presence. If only it could be married to the overall smoothness, finesse and 'poise' of MC designs. Sigh! :rolleyes:
Hi Barry,
I can only speak as I find, but I'm more than happy with, in order of preference, my EMT's (TSD15, with either the spherical tip or the 'fine 'line' stylii and an XSD15...
I've been meaning to ask you, I'd love to revisit using one of your EMTs again (perhaps the one you're not currently using, although the fine-line would interest me the most), with my new Ortofon arm, and see how it compares with my SPU.
The last time we did this, I had the Jelco, which wasn't really compatible (poor mechanical connection) with the bayonet fitting of the EMT. However, I suspect that it'll be different this time, as the Ortofon is engineered to a much higher standard.
Therefore, could you pop one of your EMTs up to me for a listen? I'd like to add a second 'serious' cartridge to my collection, and an EMT might just fit the bill. Next time you're up this way you can collect it and have a listen for yourself. It'd also be a good excuse to break open some rather fine Haut-Médoc, I've put aside :cheers:
ATB,
Marco.
Hi Barry,
I've been meaning to ask you, I'd love to revisit using one of your EMTs again (perhaps the one you're not currently using, although the fine-line would interest me the most), with my new Ortofon arm, and see how it compares with my SPU.
The last time we did this, I had the Jelco, which wasn't really compatible (poor mechanical connection) with the bayonet fitting of the EMT. However, I suspect that it'll be different this time, as the Ortofon is engineered to a much higher standard.
Therefore, could you pop one of your EMTs up to me for a listen? I'd like to add a second 'serious' cartridge to my collection, and an EMT might just fit the bill. Next time you're up this way you can collect it and have a listen for yourself. It'd also be a good excuse to break open some rather fine Haut-Médoc, I've put aside :cheers:
ATB,
Marco.
Could do - that Haut-Médoc does sound a bit of a hook! :lol:
Will give you a call
Regards
walpurgis
24-05-2012, 19:25
I can only speak as I find, but I'm more than happy with, in order of preference, my EMT's (TSD15, with either the spherical tip or the 'fine 'line' stylii and an XSD15), Ortofons (SPU with spherical tip, and SL15 and SL15/II with elliptical tips) and Denon DL103 (spherical tip).
I am interested in the Koetsu (Rosewood Signature), early Lyra's, the Benz's and the ZYX MC designs
One MC design that also interests me is the Dynavector (XA-1 (?)) where the coil/magnet configuration mimics that of the cutter head.
Of the fixed-coil designs, the only one I'll never abandon is the Decca. The speed, midrange flatness, openess and 'air' is unsupassed as is the sense of presence. If only it could be married to the overall smoothness, finesse and 'poise' of MC designs. Sigh! :rolleyes:
You say you'll never abandon the Decca. That's exactly what I used to say until I bought a ZYX R100 H2. Have you heard one? It has what you desire, all the Decca drama with moving coil refinement. I now also own the ZYX R50 BLOOM and and R100 (very different to the H2 by the way) and they too are sensational. There's no going back for me. Try one, you may be amazed! Has to be used with a good SUT though, no solid state MC stage. Geoff.
oceanobsession
27-05-2012, 19:41
Just thought i would post my opinion on the cadenza bronze now that its had a few days to run itself in, this cartridge has a great midrange, and seems to lock itself onto the melody, whatever you play it gets a hold of it, producing the depth from just piano when changing note, its also great on classical music, when all the violins come in im usually ready to turn it down cause it grates on my nerves but not with this its so sweet and smooth.
vocal is also very realistic, it will also give you the big drums below the melody if there's any in the song, records that i thought sounded ok now sound great some examples, RUMER SEASONS OF MY SOUL,RAY CHARLES ACTION OF MY SOUL,then the records that you know are best are even better, sutch is the body and depth that this cartridge produces if it were any more it would be to much in my system, you can see why its recomended for solid state.
ive loaded it at 150ohm's which seems about best, it also has plenty of bounce and air to its sound , anyway if you havent already guessed im over the moon with it, cheers all oceanobsession.
Always good to hear a good outcome, Phil.
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