View Full Version : Rega VTA problem :(
I'm trying to put my RB300 onto a Rega Planar 3 deck, but I have a few problems.
My arm has a VTA adjuster already, but if its fitted then the threaded portion of the arm is hardly long enough to pass out throught the bottom of the plinth, the locking nut only has a few threads to grip onto.
If I don't use the VTA adjuster, then the arm sits too low on the plinth. Even with it fitted, there is very little adjustment that can be made, as the glass platter and thick wooly mat make it just about level with no adjustment. (using an Ortofon 2M Blue cart)
I looked online and some websites mention a Rega Extended nut (link below)
Does anyone know where I can get one in the UK?
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7448-rega-extended-nut.aspx
Also the hole for the arm is slightly bigger than the diameter of my RB300 so its not a snug fit. I could use some electrical tape to make the fit better but I'm not convinced its a good idea.
I don't have any protractors or a stylus tracking gauge either, what do I need to buy to get this all set up and adjusted correctly?
Any ideas? Its an old deck but supposed to be quite good once I can get it all set up!
Get the bloody thing to HiFi dave - he's not really that far from you in Norfolk. Why? because he (and I independantly) have set up hundreds of Rega decks with RB300's and he'll know in seconds if you're over-worrying about it.
My own experiences for what they're worth, have been that firstly, the RB300 series use a TAPERED arm pipe, which magnifies any supposed VTA issues. the other thing I found, which some here have disagreed with me on, so take your pick, is that the RB300 on a Planar 3 sounds best firmly bolted to the plinth (Rega may be able to supply you with the original nut which had an infill for just your issues, the infill taking up the slack in the hole and threading deeper up the arm pillar (I think it was first used on the R200).
Many of the Planar 3's I sold were with tallish cartridges (the K9 was "the thing" back then, before we switched to the 1042 Goldring). The sound was better with the arm left as-is with no spacers.
Good luck, and give friend Dave a ring to confirm what I've said.
P.S. below a pic of the R200 nut you ideally need?
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/18da4d87.jpg
Audioman
03-05-2012, 11:32
My guess is the VTA adjuster isn't suitable for Rega decks. Remove it and buy some spacers (available from Rega dealers). If you use a Rega cartridge these aren't necessary. For alignment protractors see Vinylengine.co.uk. It is advisable to use a stylus balance. Look for Ortofon or Shure models as I think they are still obtainable.
Far alignment protractors , ask Rega to send you one of their original ones. The null point is 65mm from spindle centre. Don't worry one iota about the outer one, as it's arbitary anyway and all the distortion problems are at side end, where the groove speed is lowest and it is tightly packed together.
By the way, the Rega playing weight adjuster is quite accurate enough and BETTER than a Shure balance I once owned - just for your info :)
Audioman
03-05-2012, 12:02
Far alignment protractors , ask Rega to send you one of their original ones. The null point is 65mm from spendle centre. Don't worry one iota about the outer one, as it's arbitary anyway and all the distortion problems are at side end, where the groove speed is lowest and it is tightly packed together.
By the way, the Rega playing weight adjuster is quite accurate enough and BETTER than a Shure balance I once owned - just for your info :)
I got pretty much the same reading with the Shure and inbuilt adjuster. :) Sounds better with adjuster dialed out (max reading) and using a balance.
Oh no it doesn't :ner: Well it may, but since the spring is always under tension IIRC, I'm not sure..
Gave up pratting around with this sort of thing years ago 'cos any difference at all was miniscule in the wide scheme of things, like getting your room sorted out and speakers that like it well enough :)
hifi_dave
03-05-2012, 15:56
All you need is the Rega extended nut which takes up the space in the plinth cutout and a spacer or two. Dead easy - no need for VTA adjusters and sticky tape.
All you need is the Rega extended nut which takes up the space in the plinth cutout and a spacer or two. Dead easy - no need for VTA adjusters and sticky tape.
I can only find this extended nut on US websites :(
hifi_dave
03-05-2012, 20:50
I've got some here..:)
That's where mine came from ;)
I've got some here..:)
:youtheman:
:carrot:
I've got some here..:)
I've emailed you, it might however get filed as junk mail, as its from a mac email address, and Microsoft can get very petty sometimes, automatically marking it as a junk email!
:scratch:
hifi_dave
04-05-2012, 17:28
Hi, I have received the PM and your e-mail.
The Rega nut will go in the post as soon as poss.
Hmmm? Now that's interesting, because recent conversations with the good folks at Rega and at Ortofon, have lead me to believe that one cannot use the
Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge with the Rega RB 300. :scratch:
No mention was made of the 'extender nut'.
Thats a bit strange as its supposedly a nice match up, and has been reviewed as such :scratch:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/ortofon2m.htm
It performed best on a Rega Planar 3, where the overachieving RB300 tonearm squeezed every last drop of performance. No other moving magnet cartridge I've ever heard in this price range delivers more—and I've heard just about everything.
hifi_dave
04-05-2012, 19:53
I've sold quite a few Blues with Rega arms with no problems. In fact, at this time I have a Blue residing in my demo RP3, sounds as sweet as a nut..:scratch:
Stratmangler
04-05-2012, 20:11
Hmmm? Now that's interesting, because recent conversations with the good folks at Rega and at Ortofon, have lead me to believe that one cannot use the
Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge with the Rega RB 300. :scratch:
No mention was made of the 'extender nut'.
From the Rega website
How do I set up my tonearm:
Q Can I adjust V.T.A (Vetical Tracking Angle) on a Rega tonearm?
A All Rega tonearms are designed to fit our range of cartridges. Other manufacturer's cartridges will fit but may have deeper bodies, which would require the use of Rega "Arm Spacers", (available from your dealer). These are available in 2mm,4mm and 10mm sizes, all of which can be used to adjust V.T.A. Your dealer will advise you on which is appropriate.
I've sold quite a few Blues with Rega arms with no problems. In fact, at this time I have a Blue residing in my demo RP3, sounds as sweet as a nut..:scratch:
I can't wait Dave!
Once sorted out, this RB300, Planar 3 and Ortofon 2M Blue should be very much better than my Dual CS-606 deck. I already like the Dual, so this upgrade might just blow me away!
:gig:
Thanks for the replies Guys.
It wasn't me who spoke to Rega and Ortofon, but the seller of the Ortofon 2M Blue up for sale here. He is adamant that the Cartridge cannot be used in the RB300 arm 'as is', and that Rega stated "the arm was not designed to be used with the Ortofon cartridge". No mention was made of extender nuts.
Would seem Rega have not been particularly helpful.
hifi_dave
05-05-2012, 19:58
In my experience, Rega have always been most helpful and knowledgeable - bending over backwards to help when needed.
It is true that the "RB300 was not designed to be used with the Ortofon cartridge" in question, because the RB300 was designed back in 1982, a full 24 years before the Ortofon Blue.
As I said previously, I have fitted many Ortofon Blue and Red cartridges to the RB300 and now the 301 and 303. My own demo RP3 has a Blue fitted. It went on easily, was no trouble to set up and sounds great, so I don't know where the confusion stems from.
Over the years from when the RB300 was introduced, I have fitted and used, without a hitch, literally thousands of cartridges from Ortofon, Rega, Goldring, Dynavector, A&R, Audio Technica, Fidelity Research, Linn and even Decca and Koetsu. So, a little ol' Ortofon Blue is not going to be a problem.
The sleeved nut is used with older Planar turntables which have the larger cutout on the baseboard. It takes up the space, nothing more.
Hmmm? Now that's interesting, because recent conversations with the good folks at Rega and at Ortofon, have lead me to believe that one cannot use the
Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge with the Rega RB 300. :scratch:
No mention was made of the 'extender nut'.
Are U kidding? They were, like, designed to compliment each other! :eek:
Look at the shape! Even Ortofon themselves have officially said they were meant to work together!
Have been running ALL of Ortofons 2M series on various Rega's and they work excellent together, provided you have VTA adjustment!
On a std Rega table you will need a 4mm spacer, or adjustable. At the moment i own and regularly use 2M Bronze and 2M Black and a spare Red needle.
But! Beware that the 2M series is one of the most sensitive carts for VTA i've encountered! Not adjusted~horrible sibilants... :stalks:
Best regards
Mike
:cool:
Having a problem with the deck running slow right now :(
New drive belt fitted, and new motor suspension belt also, although the motor mounting is hardly great.
I need to have a fiddle with it, and make sure the pulley is level and the motor is not touching the plinth. Very akward to get right! :scratch:
Have a look at numerous Rega setup and service threads we've all contributed to. OLD Regas can run ever-so-slightly fast, although I think this was sorted some years ago.
The MAIN reason for slow Rega decks is that the ball is missing from the main bearing. The rounded spindle edge, coupled with the radiused bottom of the brass bearing "cup" means the bearing will run, but slightly stiffly, without the ball in the bottom.
EASY way to check this. Remove the belt, replace the platter and give it a little push. The platter should run for ages before gradually coming to a stop. Ball-less, it'll run but stop fairly smartly.
The ball is a standard size and Rega will probably post you one of you ask 'em nicely. A drop or three of EP80 gear oil, as Rega use, will ensure the next twenty years of reliability. The spindle tip should be clean and with little more than a tiny dimple on the end. Run dry for a while, the ball causes a very large concave section on the flat spindle-tip. No need for ruby style balls, the steel one fitted is perfectly hard enough thak you :)
The bearing nut should be firmly tight - don't go mad - and the motor should be free to bounce around if original. The pulley sometimes appears to lean towards the platter slightly, quite ok, and vertical from the front or back and this can be carefully fiddled. The fixed motor of the 2000 issue P3 had a different circuit board, a circuit of which I'd like to see, as it could make for a cheap mod to the Thorens 150/160 motors too...
In my experience, Rega have always been most helpful and knowledgeable - bending over backwards to help when needed.
It is true that the "RB300 was not designed to be used with the Ortofon cartridge" in question, because the RB300 was designed back in 1982, a full 24 years before the Ortofon Blue.
As I said previously, I have fitted many Ortofon Blue and Red cartridges to the RB300 and now the 301 and 303. My own demo RP3 has a Blue fitted. It went on easily, was no trouble to set up and sounds great, so I don't know where the confusion stems from.
Over the years from when the RB300 was introduced, I have fitted and used, without a hitch, literally thousands of cartridges from Ortofon, Rega, Goldring, Dynavector, A&R, Audio Technica, Fidelity Research, Linn and even Decca and Koetsu. So, a little ol' Ortofon Blue is not going to be a problem.
The sleeved nut is used with older Planar turntables which have the larger cutout on the baseboard. It takes up the space, nothing more.
I was only reporting the conversation my friend had with Rega. And I repeat, at no time was the use of extender nuts mentioned.
I have very little experience with Rega arms save for setting up an Ortofon MF25 in a Rega RB200 arm - and that was a pain in the arse: not over problems of VTA, but in setting up the overhang; the bias could not be dialled out.
It would seem that a 4mm thick spacer needs to be used. Curiously during a conversation with the Rega dealer, again no mention was made of the spacer/extender nut.
To use the excuse that the arm was designed 24 years before the cartridge is a little disingenuous. All my SME arms were designed in the '60s and yet I have sucessfully used them with cartidges designed in the '90s.
hifi_dave
06-05-2012, 14:28
I was merely commenting on your quote the "RB300 was not designed" to be used with that Ortofon cartridges. Of course it wasn't because that cartridge hadn't been invented. So, that conversation couldn't have happened. The SME arm also wasn't designed with the Ortofon 2M Blue in mind but it works just fine.
The RB300 was designed as a universal arm, giving great sounds, reliably, easily and at a budget price. I guess that aim has materialised because it is one of the biggest selling arms, ever.
I can set up a Rega arm with cartridge in under 10 minutes. OK, I have done this literally thousands of times but it is really a doddle. As for the bias, it is well known that the bias will always have some effect because it is based on opposing magnets. Dial in a little tracking force and the bias doesn't intrude in the setting up process.
The sleeved nut is required with the old R200 arm and with later arms fitted to an old style plinth having a larger diameter cutout. I'm surprised that a "Rega dealer" wasn't aware of this. I would imagine his knowledge doesn't extend that far back in time !!!
Barry, the R200 arm (not RB200) was made by Lustre (or their manufacturer) using similar high quality bits to the PL71 tonearm. The performance from this is excellent if limited by the fixed height and the bias belt, which ages and fractures, can now be replaced by Johnnie at Audio origami I understand. I'm sure I did some myself years ago from a video-toothed belt replacement, but i couldn't remember the particular part and the suppliers SEME have now changed direction...
Right, now the the RB tonearms, of which Dave W and I have extensive experience commercially (and personal in my case as I used one successfully on an LP12 at one time and somewhere have the pics to prove it! :))
The old Planar 3's had a slightly larger fixing hole to modern examples and the way they were mounted was via a fixed tapered plastic spacer on top (necessary for the R200 to work). Underneath, the extended washer fitted in the hole in the plinth and located the whole assembly. Once the RB300 came along, the hole in the plinth became smaller, still allowing the current thin nut to be used for fixing, and a good few years later, the plinth was revised for a thinner material I believe from memory, although I can't be sure on this latter...
The 2M cartridges do seem to be quite tall, necessitating a spacer perhaps (although I'd try using it without, as cartridges tend to sound better slightly down compared to slightly up at the rear - a personal vibe this though). Later RB300's have that cheapskate (:lol:) narrow but larger diameter counterweight, this having to be replaced with the original but now expensive tungsten one Rega used to use on older examples if the lid is still to fit, if only as a dust guard when not playing. I can see no other reason why a 2M couldn't be used to fantastic advantage on an RB tonearm and if you like, I'll email their sales manager to find out if he knows of any other reason Dave and I don't, as to suitability.
As to the nut underneath the arm, One or two dealers who've been selling Rega for decades may just have one of these ex-R200 nuts in a drawer somewhere. Maybe Michell Engineering could make something up, or have ssummat available ex-stock, I don't know.
Bottom line(s). Back in 1983, Rega were an extremely smug, insular, self assured and subtly patronising company and did things to suit only themselves. Roy gandy made a point of making out he "listened" to what the market wanted, then told everyone firmly what his plans were, which were often the opposite of what "we" aksed for en masse. The RB height was optimised for their own shallow cartridges on their Planar turntables and it possibly took the company back then by surprise when these arms became so popular on the OEM and separates market.
Hope this helps a bit. I'm glad to say that Rega were changing by the late 90's and are a VERY different company internally from "my" early days selling and servicing them in the late 70's and 80's. I came back to them in 1998 for several years and found it gratifying to see where they were going and my continued enthusiasm for their products is a mix of old memories of customer care and actually liking what they now manufacture..
Thanks for all the information above and kind advice.
Later on this evening I hope to get things all sorted out, and I will soon have a Rega extended nut thanks to Hifi Dave. With my standard nut, there is not many threads to grip on to. The extended nut will make it a much better fit and enable VTA adjustment if required (especially if I upgrade the platter or mat in the future)
With my VTA adjuster, dialed right to the top, it just acts like a spacer, and the height of the 2M Blue looks spot on!
I bought a mini digital scale today, cost me £14 from Maplins, so I can get the tracking force just right ;)
I've gone and bought some oil from Halfords, so once I have the motor fitted correctly, I can then oil the bearing correctly (I do have the bearing, I already checked)
I will make sure the pulley is clean and dry and doesn't spin (Iso alcohol and some superglue) then if the deck is still running slow I will go nuts :scratch:
The Rega upgrade kit is expensive at around £130, but might be the next step, not sure how much of an upgrade it would be though!
To the 'hi-fi Daves',
Thanks for your advice and comments. I don't disbelieve what you say and do recognise that the Rega arm has been phenomenally successful as seller, no doubt by being a very good sounding tonearm available at a reasonable price. I also believe it is as 'universal' as most arms go, and with the use of 'extender nuts' will allow a wide range of cartridges to be fitted.
A possible source of confusion over who said what, is that these snippets of conversation are fourth hand, so subject to 'Chinese whispers'. If at any time the use of extender nuts had been mentioned by either Rega themselves or by the Rega dealer, I'm sure it would have been noted. :scratch:
All this is now history. The owner of the Rega Planar 3 deck and arm has now been advised by the Rega dealer to use a Goldring 3200 (?) cartridge. This is why the unused Ortofon 2M Blue is up for sale here on the forum.
I have passed on all of your comments to the owner, but it would seem he is beyond wanting to use the Ortofon and is now going with the Goldring.
Again many thanks for your advice.
(Rega)rds ;)
I dunno, some dealers really need to go on proper training courses, don't they??????? :rofl:
Dave and I were dragged up on the hierarchy vibe, where it's pointless to spend more on the cartridge than the deck. I know the RB300 will physically take the vast majority of cartridges available (excepting SPU's and others of that ilk), but beyond a certain amount, the Rega 3 platform, bless it, will be the bottleneck.
Anyway, I do hope that all's well that ends well here. I know this forum is Techie-mad, but I still rate what Rega's can do and spares are very readily available. As for "Planar 3 "upgrades,"" please don't bother, just get a different turntable - there's loads around used, under a grand.....
Anyway, I do hope that all's well that ends well here. I know this forum is Techie-mad, but I still rate what Rega's can do and spares are very readily available. As for "Planar 3 "upgrades,"" please don't bother, just get a different turntable - there's loads around used, under a grand.....
Very true - I posted a while back about getting a Rega 3 with RB300 for a mate - I advised him to get an SL1200 but he insisted it had to be the Rega - well it does not have quite the mezmerising metronomic quality in the bass that is the SL1200's party piece but it certainly has no speed issues and is tight as a drum. He is more than happy with his choice.
The critical thing with Rega's is SITING..
Different turntables react differently to where they're put and the fancy feet for Techies, for example, may not work for Rega decks. Their own wall bracket is sublime and cleans up the bass quality no end. Very sad to see the current price of £98 or so, as I think it could be £60 and an essential upgrade for Rega owners - shows how out of touch I probably am for accessory prices :(
hifi_dave
06-05-2012, 17:25
To the 'hi-fi Daves',
Thanks for your advice and comments. I don't disbelieve what you say and do recognise that the Rega arm has been phenomenally successful as seller, no doubt by being a very good sounding tonearm available at a reasonable price. I also believe it is as 'universal' as most arms go, and with the use of 'extender nuts' will allow a wide range of cartridges to be fitted.
A possible source of confusion over who said what, is that these snippets of conversation are fourth hand, so subject to 'Chinese whispers'. If at any time the use of extender nuts had been mentioned by either Rega themselves or by the Rega dealer, I'm sure it would have been noted. :scratch:
All this is now history. The owner of the Rega Planar 3 deck and arm has now been advised by the Rega dealer to use a Goldring 3200 (?) cartridge. This is why the unused Ortofon 2M Blue is up for sale here on the forum.
I have passed on all of your comments to the owner, but it would seem he is beyond wanting to use the Ortofon and is now going with the Goldring.
Again many thanks for your advice.
(Rega)rds ;)
The sleeved nut is only for use on older style Rega turntables where the cutout is larger than present day models and the plinth thicker. The original RB200 arm had a short thread which required a longer thread on the securing nut. To allow the sleeved nut to pass through the baseboard, a larger diameter hole than nowadays was standard. If you attempt to fit an RB300/250 to an older style plinth, the sleeved nut is required to make contact with the thread and to take up the slack in the plinth mounting hole.
I have heard many tales about problems with Rega products, usually instigated by non-Rega dealers or those who have lost the agency. Truth is, the products are good value, well thought out, reliable and high quality.
The RB300/RB250 and the later models are as universal as you can get and the easiest of any tonearm to set up and use. They also stay set up for ever, which many arms do not.
Now seriously pissed off. I have my deck in the kitchen, ready to fettle the motor mounting and sort out the speed issue, and I find the bearing is not the right size.
A google search says it should be 3/16" or 4.77mm
Mine looks to be 3mm :doh:
Serves me right for buying off ebay I guess!
Canetoad
07-05-2012, 11:31
I can send you a ceramic bearing for it if you want. PM me. :eyebrows:
Thanks for the kind offer!
The deck still runs slow, despite re-sitting the motor, new belt and motor mount, and the correct oil in the incorrect bearing :scratch:
I've glued on the plastic pulley and its nice and clean :scratch:
Fed up with it now tbh
hifi_dave
07-05-2012, 13:57
Why don't you just bring it on over and I'll take a look ?
Think that might be the next step if the right bearing makes no difference.
Your about 1.5 hrs away, might be able to come across next saturday!
Thanks for the assistance :thumbsup:
Don't ANY of you read what I post here????? :lol:
The bearing will run, albeit slightly stiffly, with the wrong or missing ball, since the spindle is radiused. A ceramic ball for nowt won't be an issue as it's the spindle that's the sacrificial part, not the ball itself. Just use a good few drops of EP80 to lubricate (any more and you'll have a spindle taking half an hour to sink down - with top platter on - and a nasty flood of viscous oil, that's why Rega only use a few drops)...
A properly working Planar bearing, run by hand without belt and glass top platter on, will take forever to come to a stop. Run without ball, it seems ok, but stops fairly quickly.
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