View Full Version : Audiolab M- DAC versus Rega DAC
nbaptista
24-04-2012, 14:46
Hello,
I have the Rega Dac and I´m very happy with it, but I wonder how the Audiolab compares with the Rega? Both are similar, or , according with What Hi Fi the Audiolab "Raises the performance bar with apparent ease"?
sq225917
24-04-2012, 15:33
They sound a little different.
I went over to the dark side a few months ago and bought an M-DAC. Though I haven't heard the Rega, I certainly can compare it with my Caiman which has all the Tirna mods and a linear PSU.
The M-DAC was bought primarily for its feature set: remote, balanced outputs, and selectable filtering. It is also certainly a step up in terms of SQ with more detail and a greater sense of substance in the vocals and instruments. Not to mention that there is an upgraded PSU on the way.
In terms of value-for-money, it depends on your situation. I sunk about as much money into the Caiman as the M-DAC, because I paid someone to do the soldering, and it was used in my living room hi-fi where the remote was appreciated and my favourite ICs are XLR. Don't get me wrong, the Caiman is still a fine piece of kit that has found a new home next to my PC, so it's optimal VFM is for computer audio DIYers.
I really hope Stan will one day do a statement DAC that delivers the M-DAC's feature set at a lower price point and with better SQ. When he does, I'll have my chequebook ready.
StanleyB
25-04-2012, 08:24
I really hope Stan will one day do a statement DAC that delivers the M-DAC's feature set at a lower price point and with better SQ. When he does, I'll have my chequebook ready.
My first priority is to raise the stakes in the DAC market in terms of what is possible SQ wise, without requiring a loan from the bank or lengthy discussions with the wife about the cost. Once most of us are happy that I have hit the nail on the head with the SQ with the Bushmaster, I'll continue work on the bits of the circuitry that is required to "do the other things".
My view is that a lot of new designs have gone over to the dark side and dragged up the retail price with fancy new features, but only marginal sound improvement. I don't believe in the notion that our wallet should be subjected to a stress test just so that we can afford better SQ.
icehockeyboy
26-04-2012, 15:27
My first priority is to raise the stakes in the DAC market in terms of what is possible SQ wise, without requiring a loan from the bank or lengthy discussions with the wife about the cost. Once most of us are happy that I have hit the nail on the head with the SQ with the Bushmaster, I'll continue work on the bits of the circuitry that is required to "do the other things".
My view is that a lot of new designs have gone over to the dark side and dragged up the retail price with fancy new features, but only marginal sound improvement. I don't believe in the notion that our wallet should be subjected to a stress test just so that we can afford better SQ.
Stan for PM! :lol:
sq225917
26-04-2012, 15:33
Just set your sights on the Mdac Stan, if you bring that sound quality and functionality in your next dac I'm sure everyone will be more than pleased.
jandl100
27-04-2012, 09:07
I've heard the Audiolab MDAC and the Rega DAC.
I found the Rega to be pretty much neutral tonally, and an enjoyable listen.
With the Audiolab MDAC I hear a bit of a treble emphasis and some grain, too, it gets a bit insistent and annoying after a while to my ears. Excellent dynamics and bass though, and the mids are clear and lucid. It's just the top-end that's a no-no for me.
Personally, I could enjoy listening with the Rega DAC but not the Audiolab.
Just imo & ime. YMMV. :)
I'm a-waitin' with baited breath for the Bushmaster! ;)
StanleyB
27-04-2012, 09:39
I'm a-waitin' with baited breath for the Bushmaster! ;)
I look forward to your impressions of it by this time next month ;).
Personally, I could enjoy listening with the Rega DAC
That's been my experience too Jerry - not to take anything away from the MDAC but I found it too bright and detailed for my liking, the Rega has IMO a more organic and analogue presentation. Horses for courses I guess and a lot will depend on the rest of your system, but the two Rega's together (DAC and Brio-R) work very well indeed.
The Rega was present at a shoot-out recently, John was there as well as myself. The Rega was good but the JKDAC32 walked all over it. The owner of the Rega sold it the next day.
Clive I think it may depend how they using the DAC if using USB then the JKDAC32 will eaisly beat it, but they might be using SPDIF and we did not test that area and the Rega is rated a lot higher using SPDIF, but I still be suprised if gets anywhere close to the JK, I was also pretty blown away with the Hylide which was a real shock. It was a great day
Is the JKDAC32 a commercial product?
Is there a link to more information on it?
Clive I think it may depend how they using the DAC if using USB then the JKDAC32 will eaisly beat it, but they might be using SPDIF and we did not test that area and the Rega is rated a lot higher using SPDIF, but I still be suprised if gets anywhere close to the JK, I was also pretty blown away with the Hylide which was a real shock. It was a great day
I did think about going into that level of detail and I'm aware some say the Rega USB input isn't great but.....we did try the Rega via SPDIF when we use the JKSPDIF mkIII. It is hard getting a level playing field. The Rega was good and has been previously enjoyed but the JK was better but of course the JKDAC32 cannot do SPDIF so it's a tricky comparison.
https://sites.google.com/site/hifacemods/home-1/jkdac32
It only works with USB but is very good http://sites.google.com/site/hifacemods/home-1/jkdac32 just all the reviews on the web
Agree Clive but I am sure not everyone here using USB still think the JK would be pretty hard to beat
Agree Clive but I am sure not everyone here using USB still think the JK would be pretty hard to beat
For sure anyone with a silver disc spinning transport cannot use either JK dac so the comparison is not useful for them. I don't propose writing volumes on this as I've already done that elsewhere :)
I'll just say that whilst inputs do vary in quality I find the greater factor to be the quality of the datastream presented to the dac, rather than worrying too much about the interface type.
How would you think it would compare to, say. the Rega Dac fed with a V_link (Asyncronous) or such like via spdif?
I ask as all ther benchmarks of a "better dac" (from the JKs instruction sheet) ring true with everything that has been written about the Rega dac and indeed, the "Rega sound".
Not being funny, but genuinely curious.
Not to pour scorn on it (sure it sounds great) but why does it cost £500?
A potential buyer would need to factor in a good psu surely, not just a 5v switcher something "you have lying around the house", which would add to the cost?
The Dac market is an open field with the Mdac, Bushmaster (going on Stans previous..). Rega Dac and the like.
Buyers are more discerning now...
Genuinely curious here...thanks.
How would you think it would compare to, say. the Rega Dac fed with a V_link (Asyncronous) or such like via spdif?
I ask as all ther benchmarks of a "better dac" (from the JKs instruction sheet) ring true with everything that has been written about the Rega dac and indeed, the "Rega sound".
Not being funny, but genuinely curious.
Not to pour scorn on it (sure it sounds great) but why does it cost £500?
A potential buyer would need to factor in a good psu surely, not just a 5v switcher something "you have lying around the house", which would add to the cost?
The Dac market is an open field with the Mdac, Bushmaster (going on Stans previous..). Rega Dac and the like.
Buyers are more discerning now...
Genuinely curious here...thanks.
The ps needed for the JKDACs cost a few quid, I have 7 suitable ones lying arouind.
As for V-link + Rega, probably it would be close to JKSPDIF + Rega but I'm guessing. You'd need to try it, it could very good but battery power is part of the great JK sound.
Cost of the JKDACs at today's exchange rate is around £415.
When we listened to a few selections we found using Asych SPDIF converter helped DACs like the Rega compaired to the standard USB input but using Asynch from the DAC was even better
When we listened to a few selections we found using Asych SPDIF converter helped DACs like the Rega compaired to the standard USB input but using Asynch from the DAC was even better
Thankfully this is entirely logical! Any separate asynch converter will need to convert from I2S to an external interface format (eg SPDIF or USB typically). The DAC will do this again but in reverse. The clock and data signals are combined to be transmitted over an external cable.
It's easy to see that an internal I2S connection where clock and data wires are very short and totally separated gives a better result...and this is the effect we heard.
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/16c103c3.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/fb211456.jpg
It's my opinion these days that if DAC's sound very different from each other, then one of them is hobbled in some way to make it sound more "impressive." twenty years ago, "we" were still learning about the importance of various aspects, but today, most of it seems to be done for you and I seriously doubt there's much more to give.
By the way, the Rega DAC sounds great on its USB input, asynchronous or not! No drop-outs and similar to the transports we used at the time.. I must admit to not having heard the new generation of sub £200 models yet though...
It's my opinion these days that if DAC's sound very different from each other, then one of them is hobbled in some way to make it sound more "impressive." twenty years ago, "we" were still learning about the importance of various aspects, but today, most of it seems to be done for you and I seriously doubt there's much more to give.
By the way, the Rega DAC sounds great on its USB input, asynchronous or not! No drop-outs and similar to the transports we used at the time.. I must admit to not having heard the new generation of sub £200 models yet though...
Most of my comments are more about DACs connected to computers, I find the trio of async DACs from the shoot out all to bear comparison to vinyl - not the same but comparable.
The Rega was still good for sure but I feel that when a computer is involved then async seems to be needed to help the computer and battery power definitely makes a considerable difference too. With a silver disk transport there's no async issue and maybe a battery ps isn't so important. My gut feel is that the DAC chip itself is only the icing on the cake, it doesn't make a huge difference to the sound.
What I have to add is that the DACs I used connected to quite decent transports back in the 90's and early noughties most definitely did not bear comparison to a good vinyl system.
DAC's bearing comparison with vinyl???? I'd better shut up then :rofl:
Digital should certainly have bass power and articulation and a proper sense of air and space if there in the recording, which is summat I find missing on cheaper or less well designed implementations, the bass taking on a "cheap Japo amp from the 70's" kind of small, flat quality, if you see what I mean. I've only heard the Rega DAC once with a laptop source, and that was Alex's computer. Sounded great to me, but we were listening to the music I must admit, not the sound ;)
DAC's bearing comparison with vinyl???? I'd better shut up then :rofl:
I was very careful to say they don't sound the same! I can listen to either of my TT setups and then switch to my laptop/DAC and not feel shortchanged or like I'm listening to rubbish. JPLAY and the JKDACs & Halide DAC are needed to achieve this - these are the ones I have available to me. The Rega doesn't quite do it so well but it's close until you hear these other DACs.
S'all right :) I DO know where you're coming from, honest guv'nor, and I'm never likely to hear your preferred DAC in any case. I think the Rega one makes a safe good reference though, since it's not too silly money and is pretty widely available up and down the UK for demonstration :)
unlike the Mdac!
There was a great thread over on Pinkfish about a Dac bakeoff which had all the usual suspects (except the Mdac) and made for great reading.
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=93581
Threads on the MDac I've found (particulalrly on PFM) seem to concentrate on tweaking the thing and updating firmware etc with not much on what its actually like to sit down and listen to.
Most that do tend to concentrate on the hifi stuff rather than the more "musical" side of listening.
Could it be down to different flavours of Dac?
Sabre Dacs (Mdac) detail trawling vs a more musical cohesive approach using the Wolfsons?
At a comparitive priece level, is it a case of pick the flavour that suits you/your system rather than one dac being "better" than the other?
For me, I think its better to be swept up in the music rather than be concentrating on the hifi aspects.
You don't do that at a live gig so why do it at home? :)
The Rega doesn't quite do it so well but it's close until you hear these other DACs.
Well I cannot sit by and not defend my beloved Rega, I think you may have been better adding 'IMO' here and also pay regard to the system you had it paired with - just to say it didn't sound as good, without really going much further may give some people the wrong impression.... IMO ;)
All forum comment is IMO or even IMHO :-)
You can read the detail of the shootout at enjoythemusic April edition.
All forum comment is IMO or even IMHO :-)
;)
For any that are interested, here is the review Clive is referring too ;)
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0412/usb_dac_shootout.htm
30 posts in and STILL nowt about the MDac...
see what I mean? :)
Now what we need to discover, is if this below is any good -
http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/tascam-us100
and if the £500 odd suspects are really any better for their fancy insides :)
realysm42
12-05-2012, 20:57
I loikes my M-dac I does.
Ali Tait
12-05-2012, 21:07
30 posts in and STILL nowt about the MDac...
see what I mean? :)
Tony brought his round and we compared it to the AK4396 jobbie. We both agreed it was the poorer of the two.
Tony had an Mdac?
must have changed up/down from the MF he loved...interesting
Ali Tait
12-05-2012, 21:39
Nah, sorry mate, my fault, misread the post.
Now what we need to discover, is if this below is any good -
http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/tascam-us100
and if the £500 odd suspects are really any better for their fancy insides :)
linky no worky Dave. :(
linky no worky Dave. :(
This, I think?
http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/tascam/tascam-us100-
This, I think?
http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/tascam/tascam-us100-
...although it is an ADC, not a DAC?
Hi All,
I'm responsible for the JKDAC32.
I just came across this thread.
If anybody has any questions I'm happy to answer them.
Of course, it will be all IMHO :)
sq225917
29-06-2012, 01:40
I own and Mdac and a Weiss both Sabre 32 dacs and I wouldn't call either of them details freaks. The Weiss just picks up everything that is on the disc and presents it about as cleanly and honestly as you can. The mdac tries the same and comes close but they are still quite different sounding. The mdac being a little more reserved and slightly darker sounding and the smallest bit shut in across the mids in comparison to the Weiss.
Can't help any more haven't heard any of the others.
I've had my MDAC for a month now, and very happy I am with it too...
Initially I was only able to use it as a DAC, and it was an improvement over it's predecessor, an ageing 8000DAX...which is hardly surprising if one takes into account the 15 years between them.
However the big improvement arrives when it's used as the pre-amp too, which makes direct DAC comparisons a little meaningless.
If you've only heard the MDAC as a stand alone DAC then you really haven't heard what it's capable of.......all of course IMHO ;)
Hi, new member here.
I had a Cambridge Audio 840C that died, and I went looking for a replacement. My music is mostly on local HDD from Logitech SB Touch, fed from coax into previously the 840C DAC.
Some have said the M-DAC can sound "bright". That is true in the first few weeks. After that, it really smooths out. The highs are clear with no brightness, and the bass very solid and layered. I've heard that it "lacks bass". That would be a system matching problem, not a characteristic of the M-DAC. The bass I am hearing now is astonishingly deep and detailed, and the highs clear with no grain or etch.
I had the Rega DAC on loan for 5 weeks from my dealer and planned to keep it if it would fit with my system. After 5 weeks, I just could not get the Rega DAC to work in my system. It is "musical" and a good DAC, but a little too thick sounding for my tastes. I really prefer more separation between instruments (wide clear soundstage), and in my system the M-DAC really trumped the Rega DAC in separation, dynamics and overall musicality, and hits even harder than did the Rega DAC.
As for brightness, the M-DAC after 3 weeks has cleaner highs and mids than did the Rega after 5 weeks, and the bass is deeper and the bass detail about the same in both. In my system the M-DAC just seems to have an extra octave in the lows.
In my system the Rega DAC also had some grunge and grain I just could not get rid of, and finally could not tolerate. No amount of changing isolation or platforms or cables could eliminate the problem for me.
However, both are good DACs and it often comes down to system matching for those of us who are in this price bracket.
BTW, I have also upgraded the firmware on the M-DAC to the a.08 new version, and the features are well worth the upgrade. I notice no degradation in sound quality after the upgrade, and in the last few days it is singing better than ever.
One tip for M-DAC users. Make sure the shelf/stand you have under the M-DAC is very solid/dense with good isolation. If your shelf is light or fragile or such, then the M-DAC will pick up on this and the highs may sound bright. The casework is on the light side, and susceptible to vibration. The Rega DAC is less susceptible to this as it's casework is more solid, but it also (in my system) had that graininess that I could not eliminate.
After some experimentation with the existing platforms and isolation devices I have in my system, it has really hit the sweet spot. My system has never sounded so good, and I am listening to as much digital as I am vinyl now.
Some have said the M-DAC can sound "bright". That is true in the first few weeks. After that, it really smooths out. The highs are clear with no brightness, and the bass very solid and layered. I've heard that it "lacks bass". That would be a system matching problem, not a characteristic of the M-DAC. The bass I am hearing now is astonishingly deep and detailed, and the highs clear with no grain or etch.
Hi Paul, are you using it as a pre-amp too?
What version of the 'firmware' are you using, I'm on vA0.8 (with 180) at the moment, however there are a lot of varying opinions as to which sounds the best...perhaps it's system dependant :)
Hi Will,
I also have the same firmware you have. When I first installed it, I did notice a little brightness that was not there before the install. Very strange, as it's just software, right? Should not make a diference you would think. However, that touch of brightness is no longer apparent.
It could be that the unit is just better burned-in now?
I have been using a NAD C165BEE preamp into a NAD C275BEE amp, with the M-DAC used as DAC only ouputting into the preamp RCA-in.
I am today for the first time trying the M-DAC in pre-amp mode, so giving that a test. On first time listen, the NAD preamp sounds cleaner and more refined, but I am going to leave the M-DAC in preamp mode for a few days to see how it sounds after the preamp facilities have a chance to burn-in.
If you dont' see a response from me in a few days, feel free to check back. I can post some further comments once I've had a few days to hear the M-DAC in this mode and will be able to compare it better to the NAD preamp at that time.
Paul
I am today for the first time trying the M-DAC in pre-amp mode, so giving that a test. On first time listen, the NAD preamp sounds cleaner and more refined, but I am going to leave the M-DAC in preamp mode for a few days to see how it sounds after the preamp facilities have a chance to burn-in.
If you dont' see a response from me in a few days, feel free to check back. I can post some further comments once I've had a few days to hear the M-DAC in this mode and will be able to compare it better to the NAD preamp at that time.
Paul
Hi Paul, for me whilst the M-DAC sounded very nice through my Audiolab Q (pre-amp), it was only when I bypassed it that I felt I heard the M-DAC at its best, more revealing, a bigger soundstage etc.
So much so that I invested in a good quality RCA router/switch to allow me to use my M-DAC as my pre-amp for digital sources, whilst retaining my Q for TT, AV and other analogue sources.
Got it from Mr Beresford, and it works very well...
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/products/TC-7240.html
Rega dac sounded awesome hooked up to Brio-R amp.
Just made you forget the hifi...
Reckon system synergy comes into play with dac choice.
Hi Will,
I did try the m-dac for a full day as preamp, bypassing my NAD preamp. It did sound very good, but I got a little impatient waiting for some preamp burn-in. In my case, the NAD at this stage produces a wider soundstage with more air and "presence", but I suspect the M-DAC preamp will improve once I geta chance to try it more in this mode.
I plan to do that still, but for me it's a balance right now as I have my turntable, hi-def cable box, and blu ray player all connected to the NAD as well.
Gary, I have no doubt the Rega DAC and Brio amp are a good combination, system matching is difficult and when you compare one DAC to anothe at the same price range, you really start splitting hairs. This is typical as manufacturers will often balance one device against the other. Sometimes pulling them apart and using them with other brands is less effective.
I found this out the hard way. I purchased a Cambridge Audio 840E preamp for use with my NAD C275BEE amp, and while it produced a nice clean sound, it lacked power. There was a very significant gain and/or impedance mismatch between the two which restricted my NAD amps output, essentially not enough signal from premp to amp. I had to turn my NAD amp to the 2:00 o'clock setting to get the same output I get now at 9:30 setting with my NAD C165BEE preamp. As a result the amp would also overheat when used with the 840E at loud levels, and rock n roll was anemic.
Now that I am using amp and preamp that are designed to work together, it's a pretty amazing combination and I can "rock the house down"without the amp even breaking a sweat. I don't have that last degree of air I had with the 84E preamp, but the system is much more musical and no listener fatigue.
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