Wot, No Dac?

[icehockeyboy]

Sold my fabulous Theta dac a few weeks ago, trying to shrink down the kit (read wife moaning here!) but, to my surprise I can't hear any difference just coming straight out of the Touch into the Lyngdorf amp!

Could it be, as some have said before, that the Touch's dac is really good?
Option two could be down to abusing my ears over the last 35 years in radio and clubs, although I don't think that is the case as I could hear major differences when I fitted the Tellurium cables!

The main reason I am posting this is a bit sneaky, as I was thinking I could hide a small dac, like the MF or possibly even a Beresford so the wife was not aware of it, or do I not bother, going on what some people say about the quality of the internal dac in the Touch?

[Werner Berghofer]

Craig,

according to my experience the performance of different DACs can only be judged reliably when doing direct A/B comparisons. I don’t trust in the audio memories of our brains.

If you’re happy with what you hear from your Touch, then so be it and enjoy.

Werner.

[dave2010]

The main reason I am posting this is a bit sneaky, as I was thinking I could hide a small dac, like the MF or possibly even a Beresford so the wife was not aware of it, or do I not bother, going on what some people say about the quality of the internal dac in the Touch?Why bother with hiding anything? Do you get more kicks out of listening to music, or sneaking things past your wife? Otherwise, if you're happy with the sound of the Touch, then don't spend any more on anything else.

[Gazjam]

depends what your sneaking by the Wife..... :eek:

Not got the Touch anymore Craig, but I did a comparison of the Touch Dac vs modded Caiman.
Caiman WAS better and a direct comparison showed there was stuff missing, but the Touch was no slouch on its own.

It had a "directness" which got you more into the music, not so much the hifi stuff.
If you hadn't heard a direct comparison you would have been happy with the Touch on its own I think.

There's always something better out there, be happy with what you have! :)

I'm running my PC headphone out into a wee T-Amp at the moment and sure, not ideal and its certainly not as good as my old system was but I'm still enjoying my tunes!

[icehockeyboy]

Thanks guys!

Werner, I absolutely agree re aural memory, but I did try the Touch on it's own whilst I still had the Theta, and still made the same conclusion.

You know how it is, you think you are missing something! ;)

[Batty]

depends what your sneaking by the Wife..... :eek:

Not got the Touch anymore Craig, but I did a comparison of the Touch Dac vs modded Caiman.
Caiman WAS better and a direct comparison showed there was stuff missing, but the Touch was no slouch on its own.

It had a "directness" which got you more into the music, not so much the hifi stuff.
If you hadn't heard a direct comparison you would have been happy with the Touch on its own I think.

There's always something better out there, be happy with what you have! :)

I'm running my PC headphone out into a wee T-Amp at the moment and sure, not ideal and its certainly not as good as my old system was but I'm still enjoying my tunes!

The little T amps are great, I'm running TV out into a 2020 with 2 pairs of speakers in parallel, so much better than TV speakers.

[electric beach]

Craig, do yourself (and your wife) a favour and audition the Touch power supply from David at Mains-R-Us....

You certainly won't need an A/B comparison to hear the improvement to the internal Dac - but you might want to do one to believe it ;)

[icehockeyboy]

Craig, do yourself (and your wife) a favour and audition the Touch power supply from David at Mains-R-Us....

You certainly won't need an A/B comparison to hear the improvement to the internal Dac - but you might want to do one to believe it ;)

Certainly is tempting.............Now..........what would be the most beneficial.........a new PSU.....or TQ Black? :scratch:

Oh the decisions we have to make! :eyebrows:

[chelsea]

I use a sb3 on its own.
Found the difference with the few dacs i tried minimal if any chamge that i didn't see the point in using one.

The words night and day are used to easily in this game for me.

[icehockeyboy]

But of course it means I can't try out the new enhanced digital output thingy on the Touch, which according to most who have tried it, is a good "up" in SQ.........

[StanleyB]

I use a sb3 on its own.
Found the difference with the few dacs i tried minimal if any chamge that i didn't see the point in using one.

The words night and day are used to easily in this game for me.
If you haven't got the rest of the package, or the hearing, to notice any worthwhile difference then a DAC is of no benefit to you.
But to imply that the word night and day are used too easily is not representative of the facts.

[Yomanze]

Certainly is tempting.............Now..........what would be the most beneficial.........a new PSU.....or TQ Black? :scratch:

Oh the decisions we have to make! :eyebrows:

New PSU by miles from a technical and sound perspective.

[Yomanze]

If you haven't got the rest of the package, or the hearing, to notice any worthwhile difference then a DAC is of no benefit to you.
But to imply that the word night and day are used too easily is not representative of the facts.

Totally agree to which I think the main culprit in systems is peoples' speakers not being able to benefit from the differences.


Sold my fabulous Theta dac a few weeks ago, trying to shrink down the kit (read wife moaning here!) but, to my surprise I can't hear any difference just coming straight out of the Touch into the Lyngdorf amp!

This is surprising as A/B between my lightly modified Beresford and Theta shows the Theta way ahead in naturalness, lack of grain and with a sort of relaxed, yet explosively dynamic sound. The soundstage has deepened considerably, timbre and basslines are for more realistic etc.

The slight edge that I always heard on vocals with the B DAC has totally disappeared. My favourite thing about the DAC is how everything is "just there" and doesn't artificially jump out at you, nothing to really start analysing it's just music.

Also I haven't been using the Theta TLC as it worsens the sound in my system, a review showed it worsened jitter on coax, (can see the benefits of using it with toslink though), but am happy that I can use the TLC's power supply for a HiFace EVO USB transport.

[jostber]

I would guess getting a Bushmaster DAC for your setup would give much better value and sound than getting an expensive psu for the Touch.

[StanleyB]

I would guess getting a Bushmaster DAC for your setup would give much better value and sound than getting an expensive psu for the Touch.Your trust in the Bushmaster, which you have not yet heard, is humbling but fortunately not unfounded ;).

[icehockeyboy]

Totally agree to which I think the main culprit in systems is peoples' speakers not being able to benefit from the differences.



This is surprising as A/B between my lightly modified Beresford and Theta shows the Theta way ahead in naturalness, lack of grain and with a sort of relaxed, yet explosively dynamic sound. The soundstage has deepened considerably, timbre and basslines are for more realistic etc.

The slight edge that I always heard on vocals with the B DAC has totally disappeared. My favourite thing about the DAC is how everything is "just there" and doesn't artificially jump out at you, nothing to really start analysing it's just music.

Also I haven't been using the Theta TLC as it worsens the sound in my system, a review showed it worsened jitter on coax, (can see the benefits of using it with toslink though), but am happy that I can use the TLC's power supply for a HiFace EVO USB transport.

Well, as I mentioned, ( I think!) it may well be my hearing, and 30 plus years of radio and club work to blame, but in all fairness to the Theta, it was not an extended A/B comparison, more a 30 second "Oh.........I can't hear a difference" kind of listen.

I am surprised that the TLC increased jitter as it's aim in life was to do the opposite, but pleased you have found a good use for it! :)

[dave2010]

Totally agree to which I think the main culprit in systems is peoples' speakers not being able to benefit from the differences.
For some people this is undoubtedly true. Many years ago I had two sets of speakers in the same room. Both sets were good (indeed I still use one set, and the other is stored and in need of slight repair). There were obvious differences between the speakers. The 3 way floor standers had much better very low bass, though normally it didn't matter, but on one LP of Wagner's Flying Dutchman (Keiberth, Bayreuth, Decca Eclipse) the differences lept out, as it was a recording of a live performance, and the clumping about on the stage (Sailors' Chorus)was very audible. It is hardly noticeable on many speaker systems - not only my other set. Whether that's a good thing to hear is, of course, another issue.

Another difference was on a recording of Rodrigo's Fantasia para un gentilhombre, where a trumpet appears at one point which is again hardly noticeable on the other set of speakers. This is more of a surprise, as the trumpet is more of a mid range instrument, so should not be affected significantly by absence of low or high frquencies. Maybe this was due to the nature of the crossover units used in the different speaker systems.

You might think that I'd naturally always use the 3 way units. Against that, the two way drive unit speakers are less nasal and coloured, and coupled with a good amp, can still give acceptable bass, though perhaps not the very deep bass which was apparently not present on many LPs anyway, for both technical (very wide grooves for good low frequncies) and artistic reasons (some recordings were made over tube lines, and filters were used to remove low frequencies from the trains). The smaller speakers perhaps give more varied results depending on the amps used. This seems to be less of a problem with the 3 way units.

[Yomanze]

You might think that I'd naturally always use the 3 way units. Against that, the two way drive unit speakers are less nasal and coloured, and coupled with a good amp, can still give acceptable bass, though perhaps not the very deep bass which was apparently not present on many LPs anyway, for both technical (very wide grooves for good low frequncies) and artistic reasons (some recordings were made over tube lines, and filters were used to remove low frequencies from the trains). The smaller speakers perhaps give more varied results depending on the amps used. This seems to be less of a problem with the 3 way units.

Yes I think there is a reason that Royd, Audio Note, Amphion, Tannoy etc. prefer 2 way to 3 way. Whilst ultimate 'full range' may be sacrificed there is more purity and realistic and dare I say it musical sounds from 2 way to my ears.

[Yomanze]

Well, as I mentioned, ( I think!) it may well be my hearing, and 30 plus years of radio and club work to blame, but in all fairness to the Theta, it was not an extended A/B comparison, more a 30 second "Oh.........I can't hear a difference" kind of listen.

I am surprised that the TLC increased jitter as it's aim in life was to do the opposite, but pleased you have found a good use for it! :)

Yeah I thought the same with the TLC, but did a bit of digging found a review measuring the TLC's coax output as having higher jitter than the input. They said this was due to a shared input/output ground, so seperating them and installing new (BNC) sockets should dramatically reduce jitter from poor transports. The Toslink connection lowered jitter by over 70% though! Too bad I don't have any optical outs to play with.