View Full Version : Turntables
northwest
22-04-2012, 18:44
Well, I think I am in the right forum!
I have been studying and reading an awful lot about turntables recently as well as auditioning a few cartridges on my turntable. I have also been reading a thread about the differences in turntables and how they present the sound from the vinyl.
In this thread (over on PFM I think) the gist of it was that a decent turntable presents the information from the vinyl - the Music - in a properly presented manner, the 180 gram vinyl sounds great and the "other" vinyl sounds mediocre. BUT, on a great turntable the "poor" vinyl comes alive and sounds terrific.
So, this is where I think I am.
I have a good turtntable/cartridge combination going through a good pre and power amp into a pair of Quad ESL's
Imaging and soundstage is freaky, the best I have ever heard. Some of my vinyl sounds just awesome - Roger Waters and The Pro's and Cons of hitchiking, well you are there. Unbelievable.
However, some of my other vinyl sounds well frankly, terrible. Elaine Paige on the album "Stage" is almost Mono in it's presentation. Really bad.
One of the real issues is that I can tell the difference if the album is badly produced, but I am not sure whether or not they are bad pressings or crap vinyl.
I have tried a few different cartridges and at the moment the Ortofon VMS20E MkII I bought from Andy is my favourite (turntable is Rega Planar II).
I had thought the Dynavector High Output MC Cartridge may be my next step but I am at risk of totally losing the plot here. I have an opportunity to buy a Goldring G800 wholly fettled by Dominic (suspension, stylus, cantelever) but I am not sure about this either.
Help, I am lost!
Beechwoods
22-04-2012, 18:54
I must admit that I agree with the contention that a good turntable is one that allows 'mediocre' vinyl to shine. I suppose the term would be 'forgiving' - sometimes the best music isn't available on mint 180 gram reissues; but you still want to retrieve the most you can from the second-hand, clicky, or poorly pressed flimsy vinyl you can.
I have flexi's that sound great on my current system. That's what it's all about!
Don't wish to throw a spanner in things but vinyl being 180g is NO guarantee that it sounds good. You've been misinformed. Be careful when drawing conclusions about vinyl. Many used albums may (and were) played on decks with poorly set up carts and are worn, noisy and poor as a result. New vinyl quality is better (generally) than old vinyl from several decades or more ago, but not necessarily the mastering or recording. The ideal, if there is one, would be use of recording and mastering from say 30 or 40 years ago, along with the pressing techniques and combine that with the polymer vinyl quality of today.
There are many 1950 and 1960 albums on light pressings that comprehensively blow away 180 and 200g pressings of today and vice-versa, so forget the record weight issues and simply stick to the quality! Plenty of info around on which recordings of which albums are the most sought after for quality.
Next issue...kit. I'd argue, that providing you start off with a reasonable TT/tonearm (and I include budget decks in this) that the choice of cart and phono stage are paramount.
Your VMS cart is a very well respected one, and properly set up in the right arm, a match for many good cartridges of yesteryear (V15 included) and many carts today. Start by checking stylus wear (using a loup) alignment and VTF. To get the best out of vinyl, cart set up is CRITICAL. "Near enough" doesn't cut the mustard. Aim for as perfect a set up as practicable using the correct alignment guages and ensuring compliance is a good match with the arm. Will a HO Dynavector (10x5) sound "better" than a VMS20? Different, maybe, but define "better"?. Both have their strengths. The 10x5 remains one of the best entry level MC's going for the money, but at much less, the Denon DL110 is also worthy of consideration.
What music do you listen to? The VMS is a little more polite perhaps than either the Denon or the Dynavector (both of which have more punch..I've owned all of them) but with acoustic or classical, it's great. For rock, I'd have the Dyna. As an all rounder, I'd have the Denon.
Not very straightforward but so much is dependant upon the quality of the recording, the pressing, the deck/tonearm/cart and phonostage.
Point is, you cannot really generalise about vinyl systems based purely on the record weight and the cart used. That's a bit like comparing cars on the tyre's used and the quality of the bodywork...ie it's meaningless.
PaulStewart
23-04-2012, 02:10
From my own experince, and that goes back a good way, I think that I would really agree with Paul 180gm pressings are not always the best. Some classic old vinyl is amazing. The thing is, think about hi fi as a wndow. It can be closed and dirty, clean and able to let all the light through or open so nothing comes beyween you and the light. Same with hi fi reproduction, the better it is the less it gets in the way. This means that the better a system is the more transparent it will be and on the garbage in garbage out principal, the more ruthlessly it will expose bad recordings.
I remember putting a system together at JVC to demo some speakers for a journo from Hi-Fi for Pleasure and playing him Simon and Garfunkle's Bridge over Troubled Water. For most of the album he loved it, then Cecilia came on "But that sounds almost in mono" he said. It took a great deal to convince him, that the speakers had not turned mono! But in fact, that track is full of energy and verve but a bad recording. If the performance is great, just enjoy it it's more important than listening to the system. Bad and mediocre recordings will always be just that, no matter how they are produced. Great perfomances shine through. I just a Thelonious Monk and John Coltrane album that is NOS, thin vinyl, low dynamic cut, mono and I don't care 'cause the perfomance is sublime.
Cheers
Paul S
Audioman
23-04-2012, 07:26
I don't think mastering as opposed to recording quality has been mentioned. Poor mastering as well as inferior sources has been the let down of many so called 180g vinyl. Unfortunately much 180g vinyl is touted as audiophile which it is not.
BOTW sounds so so on any early pressing I have heard unlke earlier S&G releases. Cecilia if I remember was recorded on home recording equipment in a house they were staying at before studio mixing. However much of the album has great sound and the Classic Records version is a big improvement over the originals.
If Graham wants to identify what's good and bad mastering/recording wise for various pressings I suggest searching the Steve Hoffman forums for information. If a title has not been discussed I am sure posting a question will receive plenty of advice and opinions. I think the trick with high end equipment is to reproduce the good records better while not rendering the lesser ones unlistenable. Concentrating on extracting maximum detail in favour of a more balanced and musical presentation may render unsatisfactory results from the majority of vinyl records.
Haselsh1
23-04-2012, 09:40
My personal finding with buying vinyl is that you get what you get and that there are no guarantees. Good, bad or indifferent, you have really no idea but I do stay clear of highly modern pressings because of the loudness war that makes some modern pressings impossible to track securely. I love the Ozric Tentacles albums on vinyl as they are lovely and quiet with little surface noise but a fairly low dynamic as a result of being so quiet, however I stay well clear of the likes of Rhianna and Adelle and material like that.
I think the fact is that you are a vinyl fan and therefore blessed with a gracious gift of appreciation. Just imagine how the download people feel like whilst you are enjoying your artwork and that big black disc, not to mention the obviously superior sound quality.
The level of surface noise should have no impact on how dynamic the actual music is (if anything, low surface noise should enhance the effect of broad dynamic range).
I would agree that 180g pressing is no great arbiter of quality (it is certainly no form of guarantee) - it does suggest that more care has been taken with the pressing, but that isn't always the case.
The Rega II is a good table - but in all honesty, I would consider it the minimum in terms of 'good turntables'.
Rare Bird
23-04-2012, 10:34
I've thought long & hard about going back to vinyl, but i cannot do this as a primary Source. Noticing a lot of the fuzzies i listern to have had new re-issues on 180grm, this was the decider for me, what i can't get on re-isshew i shall continue to use CD.
I wont be buying second hand vinyl for many reasons: The sheer cost of Progressive/Psychedelic rock fuzzies, memory tells me i wasnt happy with the sound of the ones i owned regardless of how superb my deck may have been & lastly i cannot live with any worn covers, marks on vinyl etc..
Audioman
23-04-2012, 10:41
My personal finding with buying vinyl is that you get what you get and that there are no guarantees. Good, bad or indifferent, you have really no idea but I do stay clear of highly modern pressings because of the loudness war that makes some modern pressings impossible to track securely. I love the Ozric Tentacles albums on vinyl as they are lovely and quiet with little surface noise but a fairly low dynamic as a result of being so quiet, however I stay well clear of the likes of Rhianna and Adelle and material like that.
I think the fact is that you are a vinyl fan and therefore blessed with a gracious gift of appreciation. Just imagine how the download people feel like whilst you are enjoying your artwork and that big black disc, not to mention the obviously superior sound quality.
Don't assume because the CD of a new recording is LOUD that the Lp is the same. Don't know about Rhianna (Is she on vinyl anyway?) but the Adele LP's are certainly not loud and over compressed. One reason the LP's sound better is probably to avoid mistracking. Funnily enough I see more people on forums complaining that 'Audiophile' records are untrackable :scratch:. I think all this is a replay/set up related problem.
Actualy the availability of LP versions has enabled me to enjoy some modern music when the CD would have been consigned for use as a drinks coaster.
northwest
23-04-2012, 11:28
Well, thank you all for the input, a great deal to think about.
I must clarify, I was not for one second suggesting that 180 gram re-issue vinyl was the "best" - I was merely citing this as an example. One of my best sounding albums is a lightweight pressing, no more than 120 gram and probably less, very 'wobbly'!
What I am concerned about though is the next step forward. As I say, the Ortofon I bought off Andy is my favourite but I am now being offered - and seriously considering buying - a G800 Cartridge fully fettled by Dom at Northwest Analogue (pure coincidence my name is northwest, if i had known I would have been south, south east or something!). Anyhow, the chap selling me the cartridge has invited me to a 'listen before i buy' session and I am going to take him up on the offer, taking a good and 'bad' album with me.
The scenario I don't want though is the one where I have four or five turntables and a dozen different cartriges on the floor and a total mental block on what sounded like which! And an empty bank balance.
Taking the statement:
"The Rega II is a good table - but in all honesty, I would consider it the minimum in terms of 'good turntables'." as a starting point and moving on from there, where do I go next? I have heard that a TD150 is a massive leap upwards and I quote "can easily be sourced for less than£100" is not the case in my experience. I don't mind spending £100 or £150, it is not a lot of money in the scheme of things, but is it worth it? Will my system reflect this "upgrade". Should I stop now, save my money and take up Origami?
Jac Hawk
23-04-2012, 11:41
I'm with you regarding the VMS20 MkII Graham, i bought one just because i'd always wanted to give one a go, and never in a million years thought it would sound any better than the MP11 or the MP15 that I was using, it took me all of about 1 minute and the Nagaoka's haven't been on my deck since:) a great cartridge
northwest
23-04-2012, 12:31
I'm with you regarding the VMS20 MkII Graham, i bought one just because i'd always wanted to give one a go, and never in a million years thought it would sound any better than the MP11 or the MP15 that I was using, it took me all of about 1 minute and the Nagaoka's haven't been on my deck since:) a great cartridge
This is my point. I have a terrific cartridge here that Andy 'gave' to me for thirty quid. Where do you go from here? I have spent more than thirty squids on lunch before now! Do I now need to spend ten times that for a marginal improvement? Or do I hold the hand I am dealt?
Okay, that's not a fair statement. I know there is more there though and I know for a fact the Vinyl has more to give, it is getting it out of it that ios proving frustrating.
Very frustrating.
What is your phono stage, Graham? This is where a lot of upgrade potential is to be had, assuming that you keep the turntable the same.
northwest
23-04-2012, 13:31
Either a croft Micro 25 or an Avondale'd Quad 34, depending what mood I am in. Both are terrific pre-amps (and I have heard a few!).
Taking the statement: as a starting point and moving on from there, where do I go next? I have heard that a TD150 is a massive leap upwards and I quote "can easily be sourced for less than£100" is not the case in my experience. I don't mind spending £100 or £150, it is not a lot of money in the scheme of things, but is it worth it? Will my system reflect this "upgrade". Should I stop now, save my money and take up Origami?
I don't like to give specific equipment recommendations; but in the world of turntables there is no free lunch. The quality of a turntable relies on the skill of the designer and the quality of the engineering.
Adding the Rega power supply makes a significant difference and is good value for what it is. Otherwise I would save up until you had enough money for a second hand LP12 or Xerxes, or similar.
Alternatively, he could abandon elastic band-land, and get a Techy! ;)
Marco.
northwest
23-04-2012, 17:23
Alternatively, he could abandon elastic band-land, and get a Techy! ;)
Marco.
Sorry Chuck, I am starting to look for a Lenco right now so if anyone has one, let me know. Yes, I am on a slippery slope right now:rolleyes:
Nothing wrong with certain Lencos - go for an 88 or a 99, in a suitable plinth, and it'll blow away most low to medium-mass rubber-banders! ;)
Marco.
Haselsh1
23-04-2012, 18:50
Don't assume because the CD of a new recording is LOUD that the Lp is the same. Don't know about Rhianna (Is she on vinyl anyway?) but the Adele LP's are certainly not loud and over compressed. One reason the LP's sound better is probably to avoid mistracking. Funnily enough I see more people on forums complaining that 'Audiophile' records are untrackable :scratch:. I think all this is a replay/set up related problem.
Actualy the availability of LP versions has enabled me to enjoy some modern music when the CD would have been consigned for use as a drinks coaster.
Rhianna is very definitely on vinyl as I made the mistake of buying her first album in the belief that the vinyl copy would be better than the CD copy, it is not. Along with a great deal of oversaturated music these days the loudness war continues. This does not sound good on vinyl where the system fails to track it properly. My cartridge (Ortofon OM30 Super) is a stunning tracker but it cannot manage this sort of abuse.
I for one do not believe this is a replay/setup problem. This is a problem with the source material being highly substandard.
Nothing wrong with certain Lencos - go for an 88 or a 99, in a suitable plinth, and it'll blow away most low to medium-mass rubber-banders! ;)
Marco.
I disagree with 'blow away' - the Lenco's can be made to perform very well though (with appropriate TLC), bit of a bargain if you get a good one.
Haselsh1
23-04-2012, 19:03
I disagree with 'blow away' - the Lenco's can be made to perform very well though (with appropriate TLC), bit of a bargain if you get a good one.
Hmmm... if the Lenco is anything like the SL, by the time it has been modified to sound half decent, it is no longer an SL.
It's subjective, of course, Mark, but I can only report what I've heard...
The breathtaking drive, solidity and power (particularly in the bass) of a Lenco 99, which I heard recently in a slate plinth, is not something I've ever heard from ANY low to medium-mass belt-drive T/T :eek:
Marco.
Hmmm... if the Lenco is anything like the SL, by the time it has been modified to sound half decent, it is no longer an SL.
Sorry, Shaun. I don't follow.
An SL-1200/1210 will always be an SL-1200/1210, providing it has the original Matsushita D/D motor unit. Everything else is a slave to the motor unit. It fundamentally controls what an "SL" is.
Therefore, the rest of the 'bits' on it are expendable, and not what makes it an "SL". Indeed, testament to this fact is that it was originally sold (back in 1972) as a motor unit only :)
Marco.
Jac Hawk
23-04-2012, 20:37
Sorry, Shaun. I don't follow.
An SL-1200/1210 will always be an SL-1200/1210, providing it has the original Matsushita D/D motor unit. Everything else is a slave to the motor unit. It fundamentally controls what an "SL" is.
Therefore, the rest of the 'bits' on it are expendable, and not what makes it an "SL". Indeed, testament to this fact is that it was originally sold (back in 1972) as a motor unit only :)
Marco.
C'mon Marco comparing your TT to a standard techy is a joke, I mean the only thing that is still Technics is the motor and the plinth, it's like comparing a ford focus rally car with the one parked on your next door neighbours drive, yes they look similar but that's it
Mmm. Tricky one.
I consider my turntable to still be a Lenco as it has the platter, bearing, motor and idler, but admittedly there are turntables on Lenco Heaven that are stretching it a bit with replacement bearing, platter, and DC motor substituted for the Lenco AC one - so that just leaves the motor spindle and idler assembly. If that still qualifies for the Lenco badge, I'm not too sure.
Does it matter what it is?
Jac Hawk
23-04-2012, 21:01
Does it matter what it is?
Not at all
Hi Mike,
C'mon Marco comparing your TT to a standard techy is a joke, I mean the only thing that is still Technics is the motor and the plinth, it's like comparing a ford focus rally car with the one parked on your next door neighbours drive, yes they look similar but that's it
You're missing the point. I'm not comparing my T/T to a standard Techy; merely pointing out that the Matsushita motor unit is the heart of the design, so as long as that remains in place, it's a Techy (or an "SL", as Shaun referred to it as)!
Like I said, the SL-1200 was originally sold as a motor unit only, so if that was a Techy, then mine still is, even though I've put other parts on it :)
Marco.
Jac Hawk
23-04-2012, 21:09
There's no denying the SL1200 series are great TT, but it's not that they are great straight out of the box, to be honest I would say my Aiwa AP2600 is a match for any stock Techy, the greatness of the Techy lies in it's ability to be easily upgraded, and reward you for your effort
Reid Malenfant
23-04-2012, 21:09
the SL-1200 was originally sold as a motor unit only, so if that was a Techy, then mine still is, even though I've put other parts on it :)
Marco.
Perhaps that's still why I refer to my speakers as "rebuilt NS1000Ms" simply because the bits that made that speaker special (Beryllium midrange & tweeter) are still present & correct :)
I can see where you are coming from.
Jac Hawk
23-04-2012, 21:17
Perhaps that's still why I refer to my speakers as "rebuilt NS1000Ms" simply because the bits that made that speaker special (Beryllium midrange & tweeter) are still present & correct :)
I can see where you are coming from.
But in my opinion it's not the motor that makes marco's T/T sound so good it's the things he's done to it, yes it's a good motor, but is it any better than say a Denon, Kenwood or Stanton motor, with your speakers Mark it's another matter
Perhaps that's still why I refer to my speakers as "rebuilt NS1000Ms" simply because the bits that made that speaker special (Beryllium midrange & tweeter) are still present & correct
I can see where you are coming from.
Indeed, Mark. And it's something people seem to forget. I mean, strip every single thing from my T/T, which I've added, and what are you left with? This, only in black:
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/278/technicssl120.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/technicssl120.jpg/)
An SL-120: the original 'Techy' (a motor unit only), from 1972!
Therefore, what I have now is still essentially a Techy, just with lots of other (much better) bits on it! ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
23-04-2012, 21:20
But in my opinion it's not the motor that makes marco's T/T sound so good it's the things he's done to it, yes it's a good motor, but is it any better than say a Denon, Kenwood or Stanton motor, with your speakers Mark it's another matter
Ah, but you may be missing something of importance ;)
You see the techie motor hasn't been modified, which is just about the only thing that hasn't by the way :eyebrows: That is still the heart of the thing imho.
There's no denying the SL1200 series are great TT, but it's not that they are great straight out of the box, to be honest I would say my Aiwa AP2600 is a match for any stock Techy, the greatness of the Techy lies in it's ability to be easily upgraded, and reward you for your effort
Yes, Mike, but every single modification I've carried out succeeds in doing precisely one thing, and one thing only... Allowing me to hear more of what the motor unit is capable of.
Therefore, if the motor unit wasn't so good to start with, and simply held back by some of the T/T's inferior stock components (e.g. mat, feet, tonearm), the sonic potential of the Techy wouldn't be anything like what it is!
It would be the exact same thing with any other D/D turntable, Denon, Kenwood, Pioneer or whatever, *providing* that the motor unit had the inherent sonic potential to be maxed-out in the first place :)
Marco.
Ah, but you may be missing something of importance ;)
You see the techie motor hasn't been modified, which is just about the only thing that hasn't by the way. That is still the heart of the thing.
Exactly!!!
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
23-04-2012, 21:29
Actually, if I'm right then the drive circuitry hasn't either, though there was some mod to make them sound more like a Sondek, or so I heard - some kind of dynamics mod? :eyebrows:
But the PSUs feeding said electronics are par for the course. The motor & control circuitry are what makes the thing so rock steady at the end of the day.
I can see why it's modification heaven :cool:
Actually, if I'm right then the drive circuitry hasn't either, though there was some mod to make them sound more like a Sondek, or so I heard - some kind of dynamics mod? :eyebrows:
Yeah, that was a Timestep (Dave Cawley) failure!
I can see why it's modification heaven :cool:
Indeed, and you can also appreciate that no matter how much my T/T has been modded, underneath the skin it shares the same DNA as the original SL-120: a Techy, the same as my Techy! ;)
Marco.
Jac Hawk
23-04-2012, 21:46
Ah, but you may be missing something of importance ;)
You see the techie motor hasn't been modified, which is just about the only thing that hasn't by the way :eyebrows: That is still the heart of the thing imho.
Maybe cos there's no point in modifying it, lets face it, the job of the motor is pretty simple, any modds that could be done to the motor aren't going improve the sound quality, it's a good motor but like i said it's no better than any other "good motor" out there, i'd lay money on it that if you could change the motor in a Techy for a competitors motor, you wouldn't hear any difference, like i said before, what makes the Techy a great deck is it's ease of upgradability and it's been well designed
Jac Hawk
23-04-2012, 21:50
The motor & control circuitry are what makes the thing so rock steady at the end of the day.
I can see why it's modification heaven :cool:
I would agree with that, but the motor is the slave to the control circuit, so like i said it's not really the motor that makes the beast what it is
Jac Hawk
23-04-2012, 21:52
by the way, what are we meant to be debating:scratch::scratch:
Maybe cos there's no point in modifying it, lets face it, the job of the motor is pretty simple, any modds that could be done to the motor aren't going improve the sound quality, it's a good motor but like i said it's no better than any other "good motor" out there, i'd lay money on it that if you could change the motor in a Techy for a competitors motor, you wouldn't hear any difference...
Lol - obviously, if the replacement motor unit in question was only as good as the one that was already there! What else would you expect to happen, daftee - a topless bird to pop out waving her knickers in the air and singing 'showz yer stiffy, big boy'!? :D
...like i said before, what makes the Techy a great deck is it's ease of upgradability and it's been well designed
No - what makes the Techy a great T/T is the quality of its motor unit, as indeed would be the case with any other direct-drive turntable, which had a motor unit of comparable quality or better.
You could modify some other high-quality direct-drive T/Ts, just as much as the Techy, if someone bothered producing the necessary bits, and took a similar interest in their control electronics and PSUs.
The only reason that Techies get so heavily modded is because there are so bloody many of them!! ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
23-04-2012, 22:04
You could modify some other high-quality direct-drive T/Ts, just as much as the Techy, if someone bothered producing the necessary bits, and took a similar interest in their control electronics and PSUs.
The only reason that such things are done so much to the Techy is because there are so bloody many of them!! ;)
That's it in a nutshell :rfl:
All I can think is "you lucky b'stards" :D
Well it's not too late for you to join the party! ;)
Marco.
Jac Hawk
23-04-2012, 22:16
The only reason that such things are done so much to the Techy is because there are so bloody many of them!! ;)
Marco.
That's true, so what you're saying is any decent DD T/T has the potential to sound great, but it's because they weren't made in such huge numbers that they are over looked by the modders. So in that case it really isn't the motor that's special on the Tecky it's the fact that they were very popular and they were made by the truck load:ner:
Jac Hawk
23-04-2012, 22:17
That's it in a nutshell :rfl:
All I can think is "you lucky b'stards" :D
I wish the Aiwa had been more popular:(
There were quite a few quality D/D turntables around in those days, Mikey, but unfortunately they never got a look in, due to brainwashed daftees yanking off to their LP12s, Regas, Systemdeks, etc - or perhaps I should say yanking off their (belt-drive) chains? ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
23-04-2012, 22:35
Well it's not too late for you to join the party! ;)
Marco.
Yes, I realise that & cheers for the invite :)
However, I have heard a stock 1210 MK2 & a MK5 & I feel sure I said this ages ago, but I'd keep a stock AP2600 over the stock techie.
Now while I can't say for sure what it is that makes the AP better to my ears than a stock 1200 series is difficult to say. In fact it could be a whole shed load of differences & probably is :lol:
Mike managed to find the schematics & circuit diagrams for the AP :youtheman: :youtheman: Well done m8! :D Maybe one day I'll seriously think about improving things, the power supply would make a world of difference! It has worse regulation than a 1200 series as standard! :mental:
Lol - well I guess it just depends on how much dosh you're willing to throw at a T/T, in order to get it to sound acceptable to you.
As I've said before, there's no way I could ever have been satisfied with a stock Techy, so that's why when I bought one, I made sure that it was modded (at that time) to the hilt, by KAB USA, and it cost me £1500 in total, for all the mods including a brand new SL-1210MK5G, plus shipping from the States.
If all I'd ever heard was a stock Techy, I doubt that I would have so easily latched onto its sonic potential! ;)
Marco.
The greatness of the SL-1200 is the combination of a really rather fab multi-pole motor and sense & control circuitry that gets the best from it using phased sinewave drive and analogue feedback without any hunting. With the exception of splitting the motor drive from the motor clock circuits and feeding them with different PSUs, that part of my Technics stands firm as one of the best ever made. Not only can we attain aural superlatives from it, but many have stood the test of time with some brutal handling from thousands of DJs around the world. It's a proven, world-class design. As Marco says, all the other parts are subservient to that, although I have great respect for the plinth design too.
Indeed! Anyway, back to Lencos or whatever else it was Graham wanted to discuss :)
Personally, an 88 or a 99 is the only Lenco I'd entertain using. If he likes idler drive, then there is also the Garrard 301 and 401, and of course the fabulous Thorens TD-124!
Marco.
hifi_dave
24-04-2012, 08:21
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/010.jpg
Like so.
I, as Marco knows, own a "few" of the decks he is talking about.
It's my opinion that the idlers and direct drives being spoken about have the potential to sound wonderful. To give their best though they require some work and that can be costly and time consuming. Once done they can approach super deck standard.
If I was looming for something offering great sound per pound out of the box I would look out for a thorens td125. They are often available and are wonderful for the price they go for.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/010.jpg
Gorgeous! You need to post that in the T/T pic competition thread, matey.
Is that the new reissued version of The Wall, or an oldie? :)
Marco.
I, as Marco knows, own a "few" of the decks he is talking about.
It's my opinion that the idlers and direct drives being spoken about have the potential to sound wonderful. To give their best though they require some work and that can be costly and time consuming. Once done they can approach super deck standard.
Are you going to further max-out your 99 then, Geoff? I suspect that if you do, it'll overtake your 401 ;)
Marco.
Marco, I agree that from an aesthetic point of view the Lenco 88 or 89 are better to look at but actually a GL75 can be made to look good too, and with an upgraded bearing & plinth sounds fantastic! If you go to Northwest Analogue's site and under gallery you will find my 75 as remoded for me by Dom. Looks pretty cool I think:D.
And HifiDave; STOP making us all jealous:stalks:!
Hi Julian,
Sure, and I take your point. Aside from anything else, however, the 88 and 99 do it more for me, aesthetically, particularly as the 88 looks somewhat like a 301, as indeed at the time it was designed to rival :)
Marco.
Marco the g99 will eventually have a new arm but that will be it. It has the redbeard superbearing and clamping system and slate plinth. It's also fully serviced so really just the rb251 to change at some point if I decide to.
I love the decks simplicity and it's drive. They're quite rare though and commanding increased prices. I will keep mine regardless.
Yep, I agree. A better arm is all it really needs. Why not go for one with a detachable headshell, like the Jelco 750?
That way, you can swap cartridges on it very easily, with others you have, and hear what the Lenco can do with an even better cartridge on it than your AT-33PTG... I'd love to hear it with the DL-S1, for example (but not on a Rega arm) ;)
If you prefer fixed headshell designs, then you could do a lot worse than the Audio Note tonearm I recommended before.
Marco.
There was a Lenco at Scalford in a white plinth - that sounded well impressive. Heavily modded. Not sure if it was a 75 or a 99 though. I was always put off the 75 by that weird brass tonearm that looked like something Edison would have used.
There was a Lenco at Scalford in a white plinth - that sounded well impressive. Heavily modded. Not sure if it was a 75 or a 99 though. I was always put off the 75 by that weird brass tonearm that looked like something Edison would have used.
This one?
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/pigrot/LENCO/system/IMGP1517.jpg
It started off as a L75.
...but I missed this earlier:
That's true, so what you're saying is any decent DD T/T has the potential to sound great, but it's because they weren't made in such huge numbers that they are over looked by the modders.
Yes, of course, but also because no commercial audio company would produce a huge range of modifications for any direct-drive T/T, other than the Techy, simply because it wouldn't be commercially viable to do so, as they aren't used by enough people.
So in that case it really isn't the motor that's special on the Tecky it's the fact that they were very popular and they were made by the truck load:ner:
It's BOTH!! :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
24-04-2012, 16:19
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/010-2.jpg
Proper turntable awaiting plinth.
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/010-2.jpg
Proper turntable awaiting plinth.
You're right dave sounds a dream on a good plinth. I'm still loving the ace Anna on my slate 401, really loving it!
Dave, nice - but where's that lovely pic of yer TD-124? :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
24-04-2012, 18:15
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/008.jpg
Wot, this one..:scratch:
hifi_dave
24-04-2012, 18:19
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/009-4.jpg
Or it's little brother..?
Should have seen the state of this before I took out the Pledge and put on my Marigolds..:eek:
Dave, you wanna post the TD-124 pic here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=319126#post319126
:cool:
Marco.
hifi_dave
24-04-2012, 18:38
It's a bit fuzzy but I'll give it a go.:hmm:
This one?
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/pigrot/LENCO/system/IMGP1517.jpg
It started off as a L75.
if I'm not mistaken that belongs to Ropie, one of the administrators on LH. I was listening to that in his lounge one evening last week.
hifi_dave
24-04-2012, 18:46
http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/009-2.jpg
Two arms are better than one..:carrot:
if I'm not mistaken that belongs to Ropie, one of the administrators on LH. I was listening to that in his lounge one evening last week.
Yep, it's Ropie's. One of the classiest looking L75-based TTs I've ever seen. Does it sound as good as it looks?
Rare Bird
24-04-2012, 21:32
Arrived today a lateish ERA Mk.6, in superb condition, needs a service & polish up, new belt, mains cable etc ready for new arm..Very pleased with the condition before i even start.. :)
http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o534/ELPFAN1/Mk6.jpg
Reid Malenfant
24-04-2012, 21:33
Nice to see & hear you finally got a TT in one piece Andr'e :)
Nice one, dude - looks great! So what arm and cartridge are destined to partner her? :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
24-04-2012, 21:37
Thanks Mark The guy packed it exactly as i ask him to..I thank him immensely for that as it's probably the best example you'll ever see..
Hi Marco
Top secret :eyebrows:
The Grand Wazoo
24-04-2012, 21:39
It looks great Andre - they're often a bit raggy on the corners & edges. Looks like you did well.
Rare Bird
24-04-2012, 21:47
It looks virtually like new apart from the Alloy thats needs polishing, the inverted bearing looks like new, motors totally silent.. i dont think its been used more than a handfull of times to be honest...
Arrived today a lateish ERA Mk.6
Very nice indeed, Andr'e.
Listener666
25-04-2012, 07:53
I, as Marco knows, own a "few" of the decks he is talking about.
It's my opinion that the idlers and direct drives being spoken about have the potential to sound wonderful. To give their best though they require some work and that can be costly and time consuming. Once done they can approach super deck standard.
If I was looming for something offering great sound per pound out of the box I would look out for a thorens td125. They are often available and are wonderful for the price they go for.
I have a Lenco 88, 99 and two 301's..........
The main 301 has a slatedeck plinth and LOT's of man hours .......
The 88 and 99 have not as many man hours sorting the decks but LOTS on building the plinths ..(the idea for the 99 went a little wayward...:eyebrows:)
I had full access to workshops ....and it still took quite a lot of time...woth it in the end though......
Now......the 1210........took a few hours to sort and replace armboard, bearing feet etc...(not convinced by the VA feet yet....time will tell)and the results are pretty good.........
I would say the 88 and 99 is within 5% of the 301 and FAR easier to work on...(including getting spares).....the techie is not quite there yet.but there is still work to do.
If i only wanted 1 turntable I would be tempted to go for the 1210...and buy vinyl with any saved money........the 88/99 would get the next vote ...for VFM/simplicity........
They have all seen off a many tt's..project...lp12...Notts Analouge....etc. etc....oh and a roksan radius....which I HATED...worst buy by far for me...i know they are rated.....but I HATED it...and the NIMA...HATED it:(
May try a TD in the future if I sell one of the 301's.....
wiicrackpot
25-04-2012, 10:25
Might as well wave my wee tiddler....
Main decks - Garrard 401 + SME IV and soon to be 301 + Stogi or HR100s,
Subs Bench - L88 + ATP12t
Stashed - 2 x L59 and a L70, got cheap and no intention of building it up, just waiting....:)
Don't have skill,space or time for DIY, prefer to listen to tunes.
Worst buy, Pink Triangle Export + GTI PSU.
wii.
Canetoad
25-04-2012, 12:05
Just out of curiosity what would be considered a fair proce to pay for a 301 and 401 as restoration projects? :scratch:
Prices seem to be all over the place. I was thinking about getting a 401 at some point but don't want to pay over the odds for one when it needs servicing/parts replaced etc.
wiicrackpot
25-04-2012, 19:08
Bernie, i snagged my 401 plus SME 3009 mk2, Ortofon MC10, Stanton 681 eee boxed,Zerostat gun and various bits a few years ago for £430.00, was able to view it locally (Maryhill) and didn't pressure the guy for BIN price, i believe in fair play so put in a good bid.
Won it then sold the SME to a chap in Singapore for £200.00 and moved the carts on for about £80.00, that made tt cost at £150.00, worked beautifully and rock steady and a joy to use, commissioned a MDF plinth built Loricraft style £100.00, all in stood me £250.00, yeah it can be done if you look at the whole picture and see if you can recoup from bits you don't need.
good luck.
p.s. the seller was so happy with the transaction and above board manner he gave me a copy of ''wish you were here'' :)
wii.
Yep, it's Ropie's. One of the classiest looking L75-based TTs I've ever seen. Does it sound as good as it looks?
We didn't get to turn it too loud Keith as it was late evening but it sounded good. I'm not sure I'm a fan of his speakers though - little Fostex drivers in small DIY cabinets. I agree with those who bling up the L75, it's not much of a looker is it in stock form. The 88 and 99 look better, but the L70 is different class with that arm.
I built my plinth last week but had a bit of a mare with painting the top plate of my GL59. Got the base coat just about acceptable (ivory white) and went to apply the clear lacquer and it turned it bright yellow :steam: Rustoleum got an earful that afternoon. :D
Wakefield Turntables
25-04-2012, 19:23
Bought mine £200, sold an SME 3009 and a shure cartridge, put me £25 in profit. Have spent about £300 on spares, so mine cost £275 at the moment. Plinth i made myself, I salvaged a tonearm from another deck. It needs some more work but I think it'll be sub £400, retail price, well more than £400 so I'm in profit, but its not for sale!!
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