Marco....dis is for joo.

[wiicrackpot]

Came across this blurb, look what the bearings in your beloved arm will look like in a few years,
http://members.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=alfredgerd1602, be afraid, be very afraid my friend. :D:D

wii.

[Marco]

LOL! I think that in 40 years time, tonearms will be least of my worries!! :lol:

But.... That's a very interesting article, and ably proves what I've always said about some vintage kit, in that you cannot possibly know, without dismantling/examining and testing it against a known reference, if the item(s) concerned are still performing at anything like 100% of their original capacity...

Pay attention SP10 and EMT users! ;)

That is why everything about my turntable is brand-spanking new, and yes, including the Ortofon tonearm! :eyebrows:

It's also why I decided against buying a Fidelity Research, or some other highly regarded high-mass vintage tonearm (to use with my SPU), which when disassembled, could've ended up looking just like the tonearm above, with dire sonic consequences.......

Marco.

[wiicrackpot]

Yeah, quite agree in some of what you and he's saying reagrsding old arms old cars analogy,
hence i use a modern SME IV and grabbed a Kuzma Stogi recently to go on another table,
love the fact he uses Balsa wood to damp and seperate the internal wires as well, nothing high tech,
he is listing a refurbed Ortofon RK309 for SPU's next week, will keep my eyes peeled. :eyebrows:

I do love the look of those vintage arms though, FR included.

wii.

[sq225917]

There's good reasons not to splurge mega bucks on old kit and he's highlighted a few of them. Though I'd be very surprised if there was ever any grease in the tonearm bearings, a little light oil maybe.

[wiicrackpot]

Simon, this is the original ad, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ORTOFON-TONE-ARM-LONG-12-ORTOFON-SPU-THORENS-TD-124-GARRARD-301-401-/251040930184?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a73349988#ht_12906wt_1249
he does come across as very knowledgeable and exudes a ''trust me, i am a doctor'' kinda way with his technical and theoretical blurb, very long winded though.

wii.

[Marco]

I do love the look of those vintage arms though, FR included.


Oh I absolutely agree - some of them look, and no doubt sound, fab. The damning thing, against modern designs, is that some vintage tonearms, with the right cartridge, will still outperform them, even without the latter functioning at 100% of their original capacity!

Food for thought, eh? ;)

Which is why people who use FR tonearms, and such like, and who haven't disassembled them to check the wiring and condition of the bearings (I.E most people), are still perfectly delighted with what they've got...

In my view, vintage tonearms and *some* vintage turntables are only a safe buy, if you have the patience and DIY skills to refurbish/service them yourself, or are willing to factor in the cost of paying someone else to do it for you.

In that respect, count me out. I want immediate 100% sonic performance (not merely a fraction of that, due to wear and tear), so brand new 'plug & play' tonearms are for me! :)

Marco.

[wiicrackpot]

In my view, vintage tonearms and *some* vintage turntables are only a safe buy, if you have the patience and DIY skills to refurbish/service them yourself, or are willing to factor in the cost of paying someone else to do it for you.

In that respect, count me out. I want immediate 100% sonic performance (not merely a fraction of that, due to wear and tear), so brand new 'plug & play' tonearms are for me! :)

Marco.
Spot on, i am in the zero DIY skill camp and once i factor in cost of refurb by a 3rd party, it's a no goer.

wii.

[Marco]

Hi Simon,


There's good reasons not to splurge mega bucks on old kit and he's highlighted a few of them.


Indeed. The trick is to cherry pick the right items! That's why my system is a judicious mix of top-notch old and new kit, thus getting the best of both worlds, and why the results I've obtained are so good... ;)


Though I'd be very surprised if there was ever any grease in the tonearm bearings, a little light oil maybe.

Agreed - 'dem be some boggin' looking bearings! :spew:

Marco.

[Audioman]

With the prices of some 'vintage' kit on ebay there is no economic sense if you have to pay someone to refurbish. I think p/u arms are a no no and in most cases new designs or versions are better. Due to my ignorance I will keep away from anything largely electronic of more than a few years old.

Old idler drive TT's are a different matter as there is plenty info and replacement parts out there making them a more viable option if in excellent cosmetic condition. Still some 401 prices are mind boggling especialy as the ignorant are prepared to pay extra for the crappy old plinth that those in the know will bin. On the plus side the 'free' SME II arm can be sold of for a tidy sum.

Paul.

[Marco]

I think p/u arms are a no no...

What are those, dude?

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

I heard it many times where people buy clobber 40+ years old just plug it in & what ever abysmal sound they hear from the item they judge it by :doh:

If your not prepared to spend money rebuilding an aged item why on earth buy it !!

[AlexM]

Marco,

That would be a pickup arm!

Alex

[Marco]

Lol! :doh:

I've never saw them referred to in that way. I thought it was some type of arm, probably because I rarely use the term 'pick-up', using the description of 'tonearm' instead. Noted :)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

You youngsters.

Pickup and pickup arm was the term used for decades and tonearm is the relatively new designation..:wheniwasaboy:

[Marco]

Hehehe... We often learn something useful from you oldies! ;)

Actually, I prefer the term 'pick-up', to 'tonearm' - somehow it sound more relevant :)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

Wot, like pickup the fluff..:scratch:

[Marco]

Hehehehe... No, more like picking up the cartridge, which in turn, 'picks up' the music from the record :)

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

Ive looked for that Photo dude but can't find it :lolsign:

[Marco]

Wrong thread, daftee... :eyebrows:

Shame, not to worry. I bet Peck's still got it. Maybe he'll send it to you? ;) :eek:

Marco.

[Audioman]

Marco. I thought p/u as short for pick-up was familiar to everybody. I don't realy know why and exactly when they started being refered to as tone arms. Prefer the 'vintage' expression myself. Just shows you're a mear youngster in hi-fi terms at least. :)

[hifi_dave]

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/007-5.jpg

From 1970.

[Marco]

I thought p/u as short for pick-up was familiar to everybody.


Obviously not ;)

'Pick-up', yes, I've heard of, and 'tonearm', too. The abbreviation of "p/u", unfortunately didn't register immediately. It's not something I use myself.


I don't realy know why and exactly when they started being refered to as tone arms. Prefer the 'vintage' expression myself.


Me too!


Just shows you're a mear youngster in hi-fi terms at least. :)

Lol... Oh, I don't know, I've got nearly 30 years experience in high-end audio, as both a 'punter', and in the trade!

(I'm 46). Btw, shouldn't that be 'mere'? ;)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

You're still just a lad.

[Magna Audio]

He sold a refurb'd one of these just the other day. Went for ~£685.
Those bearing do look pretty exposed so in the wrong environment... I'm not surprised they corroded - those balls do look well black though.

[hifi_dave]

I really think it depends on the arm and the way it has been used/abused and the environment it has been kept in.

[Marco]

I completely agree, Dave.

The problem too is that most people selling vintage tonearms will have no idea what condition they're actually in 'underneath the skin' (due to wear and tear, over the years), unless they have the necessary experience and expertise to test for it, and so will then often sell these items as notionally 'in perfect working order', when the reality could be rather different - and in turn when bought by someone who knows better, quite the opposite is then discovered.

That, in my book, makes vintage tonearms a risky purchase, and like Andre says, despite the enthusiastic description from sellers, should only be bought with the view that they're NOT 'plug & play', and likely to need some (perhaps plenty) of work, in order to perform optimally. Some vintage turntables come under the exact same category.

Those are some of the reasons why I've so far shied away from buying any vintage turntable items, because I'm no DIYer or equipment 'refurbisher', and never will be. I simply want to listen to my music, to the highest sonic standards, with the minimum amount of hassle.

Marco.

[Audioman]

I completely agree, Dave.

The problem too is that most people selling vintage tonearms will have no idea what condition they're actually in 'underneath the skin' (due to wear and tear, over the years), unless they have the necessary experience and expertise to test for it, and so will then often sell these items as notionally 'in perfect working order', when the reality could be rather different - and in turn when bought by someone who knows better, quite the opposite is then discovered.

That, in my book, makes vintage tonearms a risky purchase, and like Andre says, despite the enthusiastic description from sellers, should only be bought with the view that they're NOT 'plug & play', and likely to need some (perhaps plenty) of work, in order to perform optimally. Some vintage turntables come under the exact same category.

Those are some of the reasons why I've so far shied away from buying any vintage turntable items, because I'm no DIYer or equipment 'refurbisher', and never will be. I simply want to listen to my music, to the highest sonic standards, with the minimum amount of hassle.

Marco.

The problem now is Marco the going prices. If a Garrard went for say £300 today there is enough scope to budget for new idler, springs etc and end up with resonable cost for a DIY job. Some of the professional restorers offer fully refurbished examples at pretty hefty prices.

However surfing the web revealed one US purchaser who, judging from the photos and description on his blog, was sold a badly restored pile of crap. Far from the claims the seller makes on Youtube. So it's not just the amateurs selling perhaps from an estate that one needs to be suspicious off.

Unless sellers are actualy knowledgeable enthusiasts there is no way they can tell actual mechanical condition. The fact that the TT goes when they switch it on will mean perfect working order to them.

[Magna Audio]

I think you could tell the bearings in that arm were shot if the bearings looked like that by checking its movement / feeling & listening carefully.
They would not roll properly at all. Who knows what happened to them but I would not think it was normal hifi care / use to end up like that.

Of course you cannot tell on the internet and sellers will describe things as will sell best - hence the motto, let the buyer beware.

That said the older arms I've had - a couple of Rega R200's, a couple of PL-71's and my current FR64s did not and do not have corroded bearings and you can tell the action is perfectly smooth and uninterrupted.
I had the pleasure of hearing my 12" R200 converted arm on a Garrard deck with a Koetsu cart (I think it was) and at that time it actually outplayed a Voyd (albeit not reference) with top new Audio Note arm. This was the owners evaluation not mine.
Of course, as with all these things there are many variables, but good old kit is still good old kit if it is in proper nick.

[Rare Bird]

Shame, not to worry. I bet Peck's still got it. Maybe he'll send it to you? ;) :eek:



I doubt thats gonna happen dude ;)

[hifi_dave]

I think you could tell the bearings in that arm were shot if the bearings looked like that by checking its movement / feeling & listening carefully.
They would not roll properly at all. Who knows what happened to them but I would not think it was normal hifi care / use to end up like that.

Of course you cannot tell on the internet and sellers will describe things as will sell best - hence the motto, let the buyer beware.

That said the older arms I've had - a couple of Rega R200's, a couple of PL-71's and my current FR64s did not and do not have corroded bearings and you can tell the action is perfectly smooth and uninterrupted.
I had the pleasure of hearing my 12" R200 converted arm on a Garrard deck with a Koetsu cart (I think it was) and at that time it actually outplayed a Voyd (albeit not reference) with top new Audio Note arm. This was the owners evaluation not mine.
Of course, as with all these things there are many variables, but good old kit is still good old kit if it is in proper nick.

I think this matter has been blown out of proportion.

Out of all the many thousands of arms I have had through my hands, I can think of only a handful which have had faulty bearings and those were all damaged by over zealous users. I well remember an Ittok with Molegrip marks on the headshell and armtube. The customer had attempted to straighten the headshell. Needless to say, the bearings were damaged.

[bogle111]

The customer had attempted to straighten the headshell. Needless to say, the bearings were damaged.

From early teachings in the 70's, aren't you supposed to take any arm off the t/table armboard, hold the arm near the headshell so the bearings have no force at all (hanging free), then change the cartridge. Under no circumstances was a cart. to be fitted to the arm in situ. Ittok and Ekos were especially fragile if I remember. I think Linn used to preach this method of cart. fitting.

This really should go for all arms I would think. Has always made me wonder about the force applied to detachable headshell models by tightening up the locking nut.

Regs
Bogie

[Audioman]

From early teachings in the 70's, aren't you supposed to take any arm off the t/table armboard, hold the arm near the headshell so the bearings have no force at all (hanging free), then change the cartridge. Under no circumstances was a cart. to be fitted to the arm in situ. Ittok and Ekos were especially fragile if I remember. I think Linn used to preach this method of cart. fitting.

This really should go for all arms I would think. Has always made me wonder about the force applied to detachable headshell models by tightening up the locking nut.

Regs
Bogie

Linnology ! What a palava which meant you had to pay a Linn dealer wads of money to reset your deck. Its easy to undo the mounting bolts without any pressure being applied and secure arm while prizing leads on and off. As you suggest where's the problem in changing detachable headshells ?

[bogle111]

Linnology ! What a palava which meant you had to pay a Linn dealer wads of money to reset your deck. Its easy to undo the mounting bolts without any pressure being applied and secure arm while prizing leads on and off. As you suggest where's the problem in changing detachable headshells ?

Linnology - I will agree on 90% of it.

The way some people tighten up the knurled nut on the arm has made me ponder the twisting action after many years use. Sometimes people's enthusiasm to get it rigid overrides they're common sense. I too have seen plier marks on them, about the time when mags recommended getting shot of the washer between headshell and arm. Same with cart. bolts. The aim should be tight but not to distort the cart. body. (Saw a few of them as well) Just sayin'..:stalks:

Regs
Bogie

[Barry]

LOL! I think that in 40 years time, tonearms will be least of my worries!! :lol:

But.... That's a very interesting article, and ably proves what I've always said about some vintage kit, in that you cannot possibly know, without dismantling/examining and testing it against a known reference, if the item(s) concerned are still performing at anything like 100% of their original capacity...

Pay attention SP10 and EMT users! ;)

That is why everything about my turntable is brand-spanking new, and yes, including the Ortofon tonearm! :eyebrows:

It's also why I decided against buying a Fidelity Research, or some other highly regarded high-mass vintage tonearm (to use with my SPU), which when disassembled, could've ended up looking just like the tonearm above, with dire sonic consequences.......

Marco.

Hi Marco,

You are correct in 'paying safe', in buying all of you equipment new and from people you trust.

However for some of us buying used is often the ony way to buy equipment we seek at an affordable price - and often that means via eBay. At least 95% of my gear has been owned by someone else. I have spent thousands buying stuff off eBay and have had virtually no problems. I did have a technical fault with a piece of Mark Levinson kit I bought from a seller on eBay, but that had nothing to do with the integrety of the seller; it was an unfortunate coincidence, of which I wrote about in my epistle her on AoS: "Mark Levinson and me. A tale of woe in four parts".

Apropos EMT. I have several EMT items in my system. Nearly all were bought via eBay. In all cases I entered into correspondence with the seller, to clarify certain details and to satisfy myself of the seller's integrity. My EMT 930st, 929 arm and TSD15 cartridge were bought from a seller in Hungary. Extensive correspondance ensured the kit was in first class condition, the seller knew of its value and fragility and knew how to pack it. The seller was no novice and was experienced in shipping EMT turntables. At some expense it was shipped to me in a custom made flight case and flown to an airport near me for personal collection. The flight case was so large that it would not fit into either the boot or into the back seat of my car. Unfortuately I had to discard the expensive packing case at the airport and just convey the contents, themselves beautifully packed, home.

Needless to say it is one of my prized posessions and an achievement of an ambition.

So yes, take all prudent steps when purchasing expansive items second hand. With some sensible precautions one can buy with confidance. Be vary suspicious of kit that has been 'modified' or disassembled.

Regards