PDA

View Full Version : Mats for the 1210...



Gromit
03-01-2009, 12:45
...and other furry directly-driven animals of course. :)

I've been doing a search around the forum (honest!) for info on the mat situation, but I wondered if it'd be possible for you guys to give me a bit of condensed gen on what's out there and if possible, what it does.

I'm tempted to go Funky as a 'one mat' solution but also see Origin Live do a thinner one (made of unobtanium pollyflorichloroethyline of some such) which is designed to be (or rather can be) used straight on top of the standard one. HFW have reviewed a few, nearly always very favourably - obviously the Isoplatmat and the OL - but it's always good to hear experiences from the punters too.

Many thanks, as always. :)

Arlequen
03-01-2009, 14:48
Boston Audio Mat1 .. I use this on the SL1210 MKII .. 3mm. thick but with a neoprene disc 3mm. thick too you can raise till the stock rubber mat 6mm. thick without to change any VTA setting

scoobs
03-01-2009, 15:13
Rich, I thought I saw your 1210 go on the Wam last night :scratch:
Change of plan mate?

Regarding mats, I would echo what I wrote about a few months back on PFM and also read about on Soundhifi's 1210 pages, that the raised outer rim on the 1210 platter is something that needs to be countered. Both the isoplatmat and achromat will sit on the rim and not give a flush coupling to the platter. The Technics audiophile heavy mat is no use either, as it was designed for the SP10 and not the 1210. Soundhifi have modified the blown foam 'herbies' type mat with elastomer donut thingy, although it seems a little pricey IMHO. I bought an SDS 2mm Isocover for 12 and trimmed it, as it's neoprene and easy to cut. I then used the funk mat on top which was raised clear of the rim and stopped lateral slippage on the platter. Another alternative could be the SRM silicone mat, or even one of Guy's copper jobbies.

I have something you could try, that was came as a brucie bonus with my Denon, it's a Fulton Kinetic Barrier mat, 5mm deep. I've never heard of them personally, but it's a nice heavy & floppy gel based mat, and it also sits just inside the outer rim on the 1210, also softer than the brittle feeling technics heavy mat which I dislike. I have never used it on the Denon, as I dont fancy the royal blue colour mat with my puck, so I reverted back to the funk mat, it's surplus now.

Gromit
03-01-2009, 23:37
Thanks gents. :)

It would appear that mat choice isn't necessarily that straightforward then - I was actually hoping the Funk would fit on its own but the Tecchy's raised platter edge obviously rules this out.

Origin Live state their mate will work well on top of the Technics OEM mat - something about this goes against the grain but perhaps I'm looking at it (quite literally) from the wrong angle. That's to say that it's not what the mat does to the platter* so much as what it does to the record, and of course the old needle wiggling around in its grooves.

*This has been brought home by using a Ringmat on the Pioneer - it works really well put straight onto the platter, even though it doesn't dampen the platter's ringing at all. Do the same on the 1210 and it's a disaster, sounding splashy, bright and, well, awful tbh.

MartinT
04-01-2009, 09:45
I'm not sure that the raised edge isn't a red herring. I use an SDS Isoplatmat and it sits on that raised edge, but it stops the platter ringing dead. I then use the Sound Hi-Fi Audiophile mat on top to provide the proper interface with the vinyl. It seems to be a good combination.

Dave Cawley
04-01-2009, 10:26
In my opinion, the ringing is partly a red herring. And if ringing is important, one should put the mat and the record on before pinging it!

What is important is that all the energy from the record is drained into the mat and then the platter, this can't be done if the mat is sitting on a 1mm wide ring and the rest is lost in space. This will give rise to another sort of very low frequancy ringing that you can't hear as well, or at all, but it's still there...

Dave

MartinT
04-01-2009, 11:21
In my opinion, the ringing is partly a red herring

Damn, but you're right. I took the Isoplatmat away and put the Audiophile mat straight on the platter. Readjusted arm height and cueing height. Once the record is on, there doesn't seem to be any noticeable ringing.

More importantly, the sound is improved. I would describe it as having more structural solidity and deeper bass with a wider soundstage. How is that possible?

Dave Cawley
04-01-2009, 11:39
.
Coupling my good man, coupling.....
.

Arlequen
04-01-2009, 13:52
Here my Technics SL1210 MKII with 3mm. neoprene disc plus the 3mm. thick Boston Audio Mat1 .. and the good Kabusa rubber clamp

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1756/technicssl1210bx8.jpg

Gromit
04-01-2009, 14:50
Damn, but you're right. I took the Isoplatmat away and put the Audiophile mat straight on the platter. Readjusted arm height and cueing height. Once the record is on, there doesn't seem to be any noticeable ringing.

I'm wondering if the Audiophile mat may be a little too thin in my set-up, bearing in mind I'm using a DL103 (with small, 6g weighted 2mm thick spacer between it and the headshell). I don't have a huge amount of height adjustment left on the Technics arm with the std mat - ie it won't go much lower. Will have a fiddle around later this evening to test if that mat thickness would work.

MartinT
04-01-2009, 15:37
I'm also using a Denon (same body dimensions), but it could be that the Jelco goes a little lower than the Technics arm. There is still further room to lower and I only had to adjust the cueing because it wouldn't lower all the way to the record.

Gromit
04-01-2009, 15:42
I'm also using a Denon (same body dimensions), but it could be that the Jelco goes a little lower than the Technics arm. There is still further room to lower and I only had to adjust the cueing because it wouldn't lower all the way to the record.

Hi Martin - if you're referring to the DL160 it's actually a fair bit taller than a 103 (I ran a 110 for a while). Of course if the Jelco does go lower than the 1210's arm that would get around the problem, only I don't have 500 quid to spend on a new arm....not yet anyway. I'd like to get the little bits'n'bobs in place first ie mat, feet etc etc. :)

MartinT
04-01-2009, 16:59
Ah, 'scuse my ignorance, I thought they all used the same body. In that case, the only resort you have is a spacer - not ideal.

chris@panteg
04-01-2009, 20:47
I have been using the srm/acrylic mat ,it gives a nice open airy quality that reminds me of my previous roksan radius and voyd decks.

Gromit
04-01-2009, 22:26
I have been using the srm/acrylic mat ,it gives a nice open airy quality that reminds me of my previous roksan radius and voyd decks.

Thanks Chris - is the SRM one that has to be used on its own, and is it thick enough to not need too much in the way of arm height adjustment? I've put a Ringmat on the 1210 (not to use - just to check vta issues with the DL103 as the Ringmat's only 3mm or so) to check and it really is borderline that such a thin mat can be used on its own. It's just that the 103 isn't a tall cartridge - it's not too far off the height of a Rega MM in fact.

chris@panteg
04-01-2009, 23:26
Hi Gromit

well its not ideal as i had to lower the arm almost to its minimum and its ok with the DL160 but with the 103 you would need a jelco 750 like marco's

Its 3mm and seems best just sat on the platter i tried a thin carbon fiber mat under it and that seemed to dull or warm the sound if you like ,will have to try it again.

i do like the sound of acrylic platter turntables but it does seem to recess the midband a little but i quite like that just the thing if your system is to forward and in your face perhaps.

Arlequen
05-01-2009, 11:12
Hi Martin - if you're referring to the DL160 it's actually a fair bit taller than a 103 ...

The Denon DL103 is tall 15mm. from the stylus to the top of the cartridge .. while the Denon DL160 is tall 18mm.
For your knowledge the Grado are 18.5mm and the acclaimed Audio Tecnica AT33PTG is 16mm.

fraser.
11-01-2009, 20:53
Has anyone tried the SRM acrylic mat with the 1210? They make one about 3mm thick

chris@panteg
12-01-2009, 11:58
That's what i am using, i like it ,see the post above.

fraser.
12-01-2009, 12:33
LOL whoops that'll teach me for not reading the thread.. I'm really stuck between what to get... i can't be bothered getting one and then having to flog it again, and some of these mats are more expensive than i'd like to pay tbh. It's either the achromat, the SRM acrylic, or soundhifi's modded herbies one- which i can't seem to find? How do you buy this thing??

chris@panteg
12-01-2009, 12:41
Well Dave is on here and you can just phone him up i guess its about 80
The achromat is about 50 but hard to get hold of at the moment
The srm is on ebay for about 30

http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm

atap
14-06-2010, 09:18
Boston Audio Mat1 .. I use this on the SL1210 MKII .. 3mm. thick but with a neoprene disc 3mm. thick too you can raise till the stock rubber mat 6mm. thick without to change any VTA setting

Just looking or a decent mat for my 1210.
:)

Have Herbies Excellent Mat II, but not a big fan of this, as it collects the vinyls' dust and causes static problems (sticks to record when putting it off)

@Arlequin: How is the sound of the Boston in comparison to the original Technics rubber mat? Have you tried the Mat-2 (=6mm thick) yet?

Marco
14-06-2010, 11:28
Hi 'atap',

What's your first name, mate, and where are you from? :)

New members are required to provide that info on AOS. When you've done this I'll be able to help with your enquiry :cool:

Marco.

Rare Bird
14-06-2010, 12:33
The achromat is about 50 but hard to get hold of at the moment



Yeh thats the one i'd recommend.

atap
14-06-2010, 12:36
Ah, I'm sorry, I forgot. :doh:

Ben, from Germany. Nice to meet you!
:)

Marco
14-06-2010, 13:10
Hi Ben,

Nice to meet you, too :)

With regard to mats, Andre makes an excellent recommendation. If you don't like the Herbies, then I'd also recommend the Funk Firm Achromat. However, are you sure that you're using the Herbie's mat specifically intended to fit the platter of the SL-1200/1210?

If so, then for a change you could try one of these (they obviously don't just work on a Rega):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ISOkinetik-ISOMAT-1-ACRYLIC-TURNTABLE-MAT-REGA-LINN-/170404293262

The problem you've got, of course, is that none of those will fit the shape of the contoured 'lip' of the SL-1210's platter, in the way the (correct-sized) Herbies or Sound Hi-fi mat does, and that does make a difference to the sonic performance of any mat used on the SL-1200/1210, simply because it means the mat will support the full surface of records properly.......

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
14-06-2010, 13:14
with a bit of a wash with warm water the soundhifi is like new too

Marco
14-06-2010, 13:19
Yup - I just wipe mine with a damp cloth, though ;)

Marco.

atap
14-06-2010, 13:33
Hi Ben,

Nice to meet you, too :)

With regard to mats, Andre makes an excellent recommendation. If you don't like the Herbies, then I'd also recommend the Funk Firm Achromat. However, are you sure that you're using the Herbie's mat specifically intended to fit the platter of the SL-1200/1210?

If so, then for a change you could try one of these (they obviously don't just work on a Rega):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ISOkinetik-ISOMAT-1-ACRYLIC-TURNTABLE-MAT-REGA-LINN-/170404293262

The problem you've got, of course, is that none of those will fit the shape of the contoured 'lip' of the SL-1210's platter, in the way the (correct-sized) Herbies or Sound Hi-fi mat does, and that does make a difference to the sonic performance of any mat used on the SL-1200/1210, simply because it means the mat will support the full surface of records properly.......

Marco.

Thanks for the warm welcome, Marco!

What if I took the Herbie's as a base and put another mat (carbon, acryl etc) on it? The acryl one you recommended looks nice. I'm using the Technics stock arm so VTA would no problem. Would such a combination be a useful option?

colinB
14-06-2010, 17:42
I really like the Herbie mat i recently bought to replace a isoplat.
However, one thing i miss about the SDS is the fact there was less surface noise so i may buy another one day ( the new 285mm one ) and stick it under the Herbie. For that reason a two mat solution may be of benefit

DSJR
14-06-2010, 19:37
The Herbies mat does lightly "stick" to the record (I don't use a weight, just a tap on the label) and for my compromised position it's just fine, the techie size being perfect for me.

Marco
14-06-2010, 19:43
Hi Ben,


What if I took the Herbie's as a base and put another mat (carbon, acryl etc) on it? The acryl one you recommended looks nice. I'm using the Technics stock arm so VTA would no problem. Would such a combination be a useful option?

I think you have to separate what looks nice from what works best.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that your dislike of the Herbie's mat has more to do with the way it looks and how dust sticks to it than its sonic effectiveness or otherwise ;)

In that respect, it's still in my opinion the best mat for the SL-1210 - simply because it supports records properly on the 1210's unusually shaped platter and thus acts as a good interface. The acrylic one and the Achromat are both good products, but IMO best suited to other turntables.

To answer your question, no, that wouldn't work because you want the record, mat and platter to 'mate' together as snugly as possible, and the arrangement you suggest won't facilitate this.

It's a difficult one.... At the end of the day if you hate the look of your dusty Herbie's mat and it affects your enjoyment of music, then ditch it and buy something else, but if you can ignore that, then I'd stick with what you've got and cut a paper template with a hole in the middle which fits the circumference of the mat, and place that on top to keep dust off, and/or pop the lid down, when you're not using your T/T :cool:

However, just to clarify, is it definitely the "Way Excellent II-3.7mm 285mm (11.22") diameter for platters with a raised outer ridge like Technics SL-1200 series" mat you're using, shown here:

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/ttmat.htm

Please confirm this, as otherwise you'll not be hearing the mat's full sonic effect.

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
14-06-2010, 19:59
Did you not read my herbies mat tip thread marco? I don't think wiping it with a cloth is good enough!

Marco
14-06-2010, 20:08
Yep I read it. If that works best for you, dude, then coolio. Wiping the mat with a clean damp cloth (an old facecloth is good) firmly in a circular motion, as it's sat on top of the platter (holding the platter still with the other hand) works for me :)

It's also a good idea to put the lid on when the T/T's not in use, as that will help keep the mat clean.

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
14-06-2010, 20:22
It's the underside that was causing most of the problem for me... Obviously I you don't take it off it's less likely to get dirty, but it might be worth a go... After washing mine the grip to the platter has massivly improved and the sq has shot up drastically!
Try holding the sides of the vinyl by the rim with it turned on... Mine was slipping quite a lot before now it's gripping like glue!

Marco
14-06-2010, 20:38
How about applying some double-sided tape and bonding the mat to the platter? :)

Marco.

YNWaN
14-06-2010, 20:51
Records don't slip on the mat during play. I've used glass, metal, acrylic, graphite and many more - no slip has ever been evident. There are mechanisms that make mats sound different but record slippage is not one of them.

Marco
14-06-2010, 20:56
I agree, Mark. However, I think that in terms of 'slippage' Hamish is referring to the mat on the platter, not the record on the mat - and making sure that the former interface securely :)

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
14-06-2010, 21:29
Yeah Marcos right, my mat had become almost as useless as a dj slipmat at gripping to the platter...

Marco
14-06-2010, 21:33
What the hell were you doing with it, though - using it to line the inside of yer pancake pan? :lol:

Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
14-06-2010, 21:36
Like I said in that other thread it had just picked up dust from when I had taken it off and put it on the arm of the sofa or whatever... Because the underside is White you don't see the dust build up in the same way as you do on the top

Marco
14-06-2010, 21:46
No worries - mine just sits on the platter doing its thang. It hasn't moved since Dave fitted the Mike New bearing, and will probably sit there until I next need access to the 'internals' - when fitting the new platter, perhaps? ;)

Marco.

colinB
14-06-2010, 22:09
I thought you used a record weight Hamish? Dont tell me youve given up on them i just bought one. I thought that was one of the benefits.

atap
14-06-2010, 22:24
Hi Ben,

However, just to clarify, is it definitely the "Way Excellent II-3.7mm 285mm (11.22") diameter for platters with a raised outer ridge like Technics SL-1200 series" mat you're using, shown here:

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/ttmat.htm

Please confirm this, as otherwise you'll not be hearing the mat's full sonic effect.

Marco.

Sir, possesion of target object confirmed, sir!
;)

Well, that static issue disturbs me a lot... I also thought about ordering a thicker mat from Herbie, but I'm also open for any suggestions for newer mats, that would perform better - that's why I was looking and asking for mats made of carbon and other material - hoping to get some better behaviour regarding static & dust..

However, it seems there are only few 285mm diameter mats for the 1210 - and everybody seems to be happy with his Herbie mat.

The Vinyl Adventure
14-06-2010, 22:29
I have that static problem too, but only if I don't use the carbon cleaning brush on my records... Isn't there some kinda anti static clicker thing that can be used to ferther decrease that sort of issue

Marco
14-06-2010, 22:31
Hi Ben,


Sir, possesion of target object confirmed, sir!


Lol! :eyebrows:


Well, that static issue disturbs me a lot... I also thought about ordering a thicker mat from Herbie, but I'm also open for any suggestions for newer mats, that would perform better - that's why I was looking and asking for mats made of carbon and other material - hoping to get some better behaviour regarding static & dust..


Do you fit the lid when your 1210's not in use?

The thicker Herbie's mat is not as good because all you're doing then is creating a greater 'sandwich effect' between the record and the platter, when ideally you want to minimise this, and for the mat therefore to be as thin as possible, so that the record and platter are held together closely as 'one'.

The thicker mat is only of benefit for damping the platter slightly more. What you really want for the best effect is to clamp the record, mat and platter firmly to each other, so that everything couples together with minimal 'sandwich effect'. For that, you need the thinner Herbie's mat, which will still damp the platter sufficiently well, especially once a record is placed on it.


However, it seems there are only few 285mm diameter mats for the 1210 - and everybody seems to be happy with his Herbie mat.


Indeed. The problem is that it's a trade-off: use an acrylic or carbon mat and (possibly) get better behaviour regarding static and dust, but end up with a less sonically effective interface between record and mat.......

Me? I'll keep the Herbie's/Sound-Hifi mat and 'soldier on' regardless with the static and dust ;)

Tip: Use a professional record cleaner in conjunction with a Zerostat gun and Nagaoka/Musical Fidelity anti-static sleeves (like I do), and you'll all but eliminate the latter!

Marco.

P.S Colin, you have a question to answer on your Jelco 250 thread.

The Grand Wazoo
14-06-2010, 22:59
I have that static problem too, but only if I don't use the carbon cleaning brush on my records... Isn't there some kinda anti static clicker thing that can be used to ferther decrease that sort of issue



QUOTE MARCO: Tip: Use a professional record cleaner in conjunction with a Zerostat gun and Nagaoka anti-static sleeves (like I do), and you'll all but eliminate the latter!

http://www.laddresearch.com/General_Catalog/Chapter_9/Zerostat_Anti-Static_Instrumen/32148.jpg

Anyway, what's with all this mat sandwich business? I keep reading about these folks who feel they've got to stack 'em up. Doesn't anyone make one that works properly on it's own?

I've got a theory about all this..............


http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/wda0221l.jpg