Less is more?

[Reffc]

After some experimenting with various amplifiers following the regretful sale of my Lumley valve amps, I've settled on this:

http://www.opera-consonance.com/products/cyber10S.htm

the Consonance Opera Cyber 10.

11.5 Watts of pure Class A from a quad of 2A3 TJ mesh plates used in push-pull configuration. My loudspeakers have a sensitivity approaching 100db/1w, to this should provide more than enough grunt to really move some air.

It got me thinking about "valve watts" v's "SS watts", and of course the two should be the same, but having had all sorts of valve amps through my listening room in recent months along with some good SS amps, it never ceases to amaze me just how dynamic and punchy a relatively low powered valve amp can sound!

I've heard very good things about partnering the Cyber 10 with the Music First preamp (the "10" is integrated, but attaching a pre-amp is just a matter of feeding some IC's to one of the inputs and then turning the volume on the 10 to maximum whilst using preamp volume control).

Does anyone else run one of these "10's"? I'd be interested if anyone has tried the Music First or any other preamp with the Consonance, which own reputedly portrays music in a hugely enjoyable manner with great dynamics, allowing the music to take precedence over the hifi (a very trusted friend and dealer has had one driving the same speakers as mine a year or two back, in fact his 'speakers now reside in my living room!). I know...a blind buy and I should have listened first, but I trust the opinions of Jim, the friend and dealer in question.

[stupinder]

I use an NVA P90 as a pre despite the TAC 300 being an integrated...basically allows me more outs for headphone amps etc. It also allows for left and right ch independent volume adjustment as the right hand ch ALWAYs seems louder to me on everything...grrr
As far as i can hear it's completely transparent and neither adds nor takes anything away. I see no need to change it in the near future :-)
This is what the NVA site says about it "Using a high specification cermet potentiometer which we believe is unique to NVA, a heavy-duty switch, gold phono connectors and carefully tuned short runs of the best quality cable we can find, the P50 and P90 have repeatedly outperformed passive and conventional pre-amplifiers costing many times the price."

[YNWaN]

it never ceases to amaze me just how dynamic and punchy a relatively low powered valve amp can sound!

And how gently they clip......

[Reffc]

And how gently they clip......

For the most part...yes, that's true. In the configuration I'll be using I think that clipping may be more evident, although it's unlikely I'll drive the amp that hard as I've heard just what a 3w SET can do with the Agathons..

[Stratmangler]

It also allows for left and right ch independent volume adjustment as the right hand ch ALWAYs seems louder to me on everything...grrr

Is your hearing sensitivity down in the left ear?
Might be worth visiting The Quack and let them have a look at it.

[Haselsh1]

Is your hearing sensitivity down in the left ear?
Might be worth visiting The Quack and let them have a look at it.

Hmmm... I have that problem. The sound is always slightly on the right all of the time. I've had me lugs sorted but its still the same.

On thread; I use a 15Wpc EL84 Icon Audio and I'm amazed at how loud it can go into 89db/W/m loudspeakers.

[Marco]

And how gently they clip......

Lol - only if they're crap or underpowered, and/or used with speakers that are too demanding a load, or just mindlessly abused...

Paul talks about having 11.5 watts of pure Class A (and I agree very much with his sentiments), but try having 50 watts of pure class A (such is the case with my own valve amp) and 95db efficient speakers, like Tannoys, with 15" drivers...

Clipping? Pah... No chance! In my room, your ears would give in (and likely also your ribcage, lol) WAY before the amp gets near to clipping....!! :eyebrows:

;)

Marco.

[Reffc]

Some extended listening done now, and I can confirm beyond any shadow of doubt, that partnered with the Agathons, there's zero, zip, no chance of clipping! Volume, if turned past the 9 O'clock position would blow the fur of the next door neighbour's cats (all of them) and probably result in hearing damage if you were in the room. I played Massive Attack's "Angel" track with the volume at just over One quarter (4 Watts-ish?) and the bass rattled all the windows and had my wife yelling at me from another room to turn it down as the person on the other end of the phone was going deaf!

Its amazing how "valve watts" never seem to translate to "SS Watts" with big bottle valve amps like this one (pics now uploaded to the Gallery (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16650&page=3)). Liking it a lot so far. Massive dynamic scale and doesn't seem to get muddled by even full-on orchestral work. Sublime with acoustic and vocals but unlike most valve amps I've owned, it really does justice to seismic bass notes (albeit a little softer than a powerful SS amp would be) and retains nice sparkly highs. Lovely amp. Anyone with sensitive loudspeakers wanting a foray into valves owes it to themselves to have a listen to one of these. Seriously impressive for the money.

[Marco]

Nice one, Paul. What you're hearing is exactly what I too get at home - you can't beat a system which reproduces effortless realistic dynamics and frightening scale! :fingers: :hairmetal: :D

You should speak sometime with Anthony TD, as he's got some very good theories as to why 'valve watts' are rather different from solid-state ones... ;)

Marco.

[Reffc]

I think that there's a few reasons behind that conundrum Marco. The use of huge choked power supplies and large amounts of current on tap are one thing but the way the amp is rated is partly a clue. Most SS amps are rated for a peak output for around 20msecs before clipping, and RMS is obviously way below this. Depending upon the output stage and power supplies, they cannot sustain peaks very long before clipping, and are voltage output devices with current being the variable output. Good valve amps can sustain peaks for many times longer than this and when they do eventually clip, it's so soft that it's not always that noticeable. They are also current output devices and it's voltage that needs to vary with impedance loading and gain. However, having recently played about with both 55 and 100w/ch SS amps and comparing them to the 11w Cyber, it's very apparent that the Cyber has more punch and volume long before it reaches clipping distortion than the 50 watt amp. My suspicions are that the SS amp may be called a 50 watt RMS amp but it's clearly not, as it needed volume turned over half to reach the sort of SPL levels that the Cyber manages at the 10 o'clock position. Odd but not the first time I've come across this one.

[Reid Malenfant]

My suspicions are that the SS amp may be called a 50 watt RMS amp but it's clearly not, as it needed volume turned over half to reach the sort of SPL levels that the Cyber manages at the 10 o'clock position. Odd but not the first time I've come across this one.
Where the volume control is turned to has absolutely nothing to do with the overall power output & everything to do with the amplifier voltage gain & law of the potentiometer.

This has been discussed enough times, but a well designed low overall feedback class A solid state amplifier will or could & indeed should sound incredibly similar to what you are describing :) Unfortunately most designs of SS equipment use copious amounts of overall feedback which while reducing the distortion on the output to miniscule levels (so it measures well :rolleyes:) also robs the amplifier of air & dynamics as well as making it clip very hard indeed.

Perhaps you ought to compare a decent class A amp to a valve amp, rather than something from the measument department school of thought. At least make sure they are similar before judging them rather than chalk & cheese :eyebrows:

Try comparing it to a Pass Labs power amp as they use low overall feedback with well biased class A output stage. I think you'll find them very similar indeed...

[anthonyTD]

Where the volume control is turned to has absolutely nothing to do with the overall power output & everything to do with the amplifier voltage gain & law of the potentiometer.

This has been discussed enough times, but a well designed low overall feedback class A solid state amplifier will or could & indeed should sound incredibly similar to what you are describing :)
Unfortunately most designs of SS equipment use copious amounts of overall feedback which while reducing the distortion on the output to miniscule levels (so it measures well :rolleyes:) also robs the amplifier of air & dynamics as well as making it clip very hard indeed.

Perhaps you ought to compare a decent class A amp to a valve amp, rather than something from the measument department school of thought. At least make sure they are similar before judging them rather than chalk & cheese :eyebrows:

Try comparing it to a Pass Labs power amp as they use low overall feedback with well biased class A output stage. I think you'll find them very similar indeed...

:)

[Reffc]

I've done that Mark, and yes, they are similar both being Class A. The comparison I was making was with two Class AB and B SS amps. I appreciate that where the volume control is has little to do with actual wattage in linear terms, but the point being the the 11 watt pure Class A still sounded more powerful without having to lift it much from the bottom (and in this case with the particular pot fitted, that translates to between 4 and 5 Watts). Poor choice of wording but what I was trying to convey was that measurements mean little in some cases; in this case, the overall rating of both SS amps didn't translate into a direct comparison with the Class A amp (as you have indicated), so explaining why many well implemented SET and push-pull valve amps can appear to out-perform more powerful SS designs. I've tried several class A SS amps and TBH they weren't to my tastes at all.