View Full Version : Sounds light on bass
Hi there
I've carried out the following mods on my sl1210
1) Isonoae feet
2) Sumiko headshell
3) Audio Technica 440 cart.
4) I had a problem balancing the arm due to the weight of the head/cart. I ordered the additional weight and now it is balanced with appropriate tracking force and anti skate applied
5) I aligned the cart with a Stevenson protractor.
6) VTA I found a bit tricky. To my eye it seems the same level whether at the maximum or minimum setting. I can't do it by ear as the deck is right next to one of the speakers, so I can't hear things accurately.
I asked my wife to have a listen from the sitting position but that didn't really work. I have ordered a tonearm spirit level to sort this issue out.
7) I have removed the perspex cover
After all this, things sound very good except in terms of the bass. The bass seems light and without authority. There is no 'slam' to the bass. To make things clear I am not after muddy distorted bass, however my large floor standers are capable of producing clean, prodigious, low bass. But I'm not hearing it.
Is it the cart?
Thanks
Stratmangler
11-04-2012, 19:45
A photo of the pointy end of the arm might help :)
6) VTA I found a bit tricky. To my eye it seems the same level whether at the maximum or minimum setting. I can't do it by ear as the deck is right next to one of the speakers, so I can't hear things accurately.
I asked my wife to have a listen from the sitting position but that didn't really work. I have ordered a tonearm spirit level to sort this issue out.
To get the top of your headshell parallel to the surface of the record get a piece of paper and draw as accurately as you can lines millimetres apart and parallel to the lower edge.
Place the arm on a record (not spinning!) and offer up the paper to the headshell while resting it on the record. You can then sight the top of the headshell with the lines you have drawn and see at once if it is low or high in reference to the record. Simple ;)
A photo of the pointy end of the arm might help :)
Hi Chris
How would a photo of the end of my arm help you help me with this issue?:)
Thanks
To get the top of your headshell parallel to the surface of the record get a piece of paper and draw as accurately as you can lines millimetres apart and parallel to the lower edge.
Place the arm on a record (not spinning!) and offer up the paper to the headshell while resting it on the record. You can then sight the top of the headshell with the lines you have drawn and see at once if it is low or high in reference to the record. Simple ;)
Thanks Simon. I've ordered a tonearm spirit level now so that should sort that problem out:)
When people write about setting VTA by ear they mean that you should make an adjustment and then sit down to listen for a bit, then go and make another adjustment to the VTA, sit down and listen to the same extract again etc. They don't mean that you should be able to hear the sonic impact of the adjustment as you are making it at the deck, it's too subtle for that.
When setting the arm parallel to the record you have to have your eye level absolutely level with the record surface - the difference between minimum and maximum settings should then be pretty obvious.
Are you sure that this bass lightness you refer to isn't because the cartridge or speakers are not wired out of relative phase - this is an easy mistake to make and results in very much reduced bass weight.
Thanks Mark. VTA comments noted.
The speakers are not wired out of phase as when I play a CD through the same system the bass is all there. I'm not sure what you mean by the cart being wired out of phase, do you mean the four coloured cart wires? If so I've checked those as well and they are correct.
This may mean nothing but I'll mention it anyway. I have noticed that my phono leads that come from the deck fit very loosely on the phono preamp. All my other leads (mainly Mark Grant stuff) fit very tightly ie you have to pyhsically push them on and it takes some effort to get them off.
With the phono leads from the deck they seem to connect onto the phono pre without any effort and will come off again in the same way ie they do not seem like a tight fit.
Probably nothing to do with my bass issue though!
Stratmangler
12-04-2012, 05:52
Hi Chris
How would a photo of the end of my arm help you help me with this issue?:)
Thanks
:rolleyes:
Tracking weight? Definately sounds like a set-up issue, Techies are not bass light.:scratch:
Hi David - as previously stated, the Technics deck is noted for its good bass quality and extension. If you are certain that the deck is on a level surface and the arm is properly setup (especially tracking weight), then you may need to look at your phono/preamp settings. The AT is an MM cartridge so it will need to be connected to a phono input offering 47k load impedance. Can you verify that?
Chris, I'm sorry but I genuinely don't know what you are getting at.
Andy/Martin
The phono pre should be on the right settings. I set it at 47k load for my previous cart which was the Stanton 500 II and haven't touched it since
I'll recheck the arm set up again tonight to ensure that I haven't cocked something up.
Thanks again
Hi David,
You could just be hearing the difference between the Stanton and the Audio Technica, which I why I said before that the latter would not be an overall upgrade.
AT cartridges do tend to sound somewhat bass-light (and a little bright and forward), which is why I generally don't like them. I'd refit the Stanton, setting it up properly again in the process, and see whether the bass weight you're missing now returns :)
Marco.
Dinodale
12-04-2012, 12:38
I think my AT120E does have a lot of bass;)
David, what cables do you use? I have tried 4 different cables and it was amazing how different the sound was and how much bass you heard from cable to cable.
Now I don't know how light the bass is but was it possible that the cartridge needed some "burn in"-time?
I think my AT120E does have a lot of bass;)
It's all relative (subjective), and system-dependent (particularly with speakers), Claus. What may be "a lot of bass", to you, could be 'bass-light' to David, particularly when he's used to the powerful and weighty sound of the Stanton, when thumping out dance music! ;)
The AT is liable to sound a little 'anaemic', in comparison.
David, check that you've wired the cartridge correctly, too. I've heard cartridges sound strangely 'weird', tonally, and not just out of phase, when the blue and green earth wires (for example) have been mixed up.
Marco.
Dinodale
12-04-2012, 13:47
It's all relative (subjective), and system-dependent (particularly with speakers), Claus. What may be "a lot of bass", to you, could be 'bass-light' to David, particularly when he's used to the powerful and weighty sound of the Stanton, when thumping out dance music! ;)
The AT is liable to sound a little 'anaemic', in comparison.
Marco.
Yes, no doubt it is dependent on the system, the location, what kind of music and sound you are used to hear etc.
Almost everytime I have made an upgrade especially on my Techie I have heard a change in the sound. Some vinyls became much more fun to listen to while others became dull. Later again after a new change it became the opposite.
That only makes it so hard to try to help David when you can't hear his system:scratch:
Wakefield Turntables
12-04-2012, 16:13
Hi David,
AT cartridges do tend to sound somewhat bass-light (and a little bright and forward), which is why I generally don't like them. I'd refit the Stanton, setting it up properly again in the process, and see whether the bass weight you're missing now returns :)
Marco.
You sure about that Marco, mine sounds like a sledge hammer in yer face ;)
RobbieGong
12-04-2012, 17:01
Personally i think the Op needs to re-address set up and try to get that right, we know it can take time. Secondly he has stock arm so should be able to play with vta quite easily. Off my head I know that there's a point where too much one way and the treble will dominate ie less bass, too much the other way and the bass will dominate instead. More tail up causes one effect, more tail down cause the other - one of the guys will remember which does what - The Ops trick would be to listen and find the balance between those two points somehow - Hope I'm making sense :).
You sure about that Marco, mine sounds like a sledge hammer in yer face...
Lol - well yours is a much higher quality AT cartridge, on a very different T/T (modification-wise) from David's! Besides, you might think that until you heard the difference, say, a Zu or Denon DL-103SA made, in comparison ;)
Marco.
The 440mla is particularly sensitive to VTA so spend a while to get it right before you ditch it for the Stanton. Marco is absolutely correct about the sonic differences between the two carts. The 440 can sound horrible if not set up correctly and in a system that errs towards brightness. I'd also argue that the standard Techie arm is not an ideal match for the AT...
Stratmangler
12-04-2012, 18:15
Chris, I'm sorry but I genuinely don't know what you are getting at
A picture paints a thousand words.
There might be something very obvious that can be seen but is not being mentioned.
Wakefield Turntables
12-04-2012, 19:21
Lol - well yours is a much higher quality AT cartridge, on a very different T/T (modification-wise) from David's! Besides, you might think that until you heard the difference, say, a Zu or Denon DL-103SA made, in comparison ;)
Marco.
also I dont think my speakers are quite as efficient as your Tannoys, never heard any Zu or Denon's so i might just be surprised. :eek:
l have had a couple of carts recently and they both sounded anemic compared to my Stantons ( this includes my Nagaoka MP110) which is quite a full sounding cartridge.
Thanks for all the input guys.
I got home late (again) from work but did have about an hour to have a play. This is what I did and found
1) Listened to the sumiko head/at 440 cat again. It did still sound very light on the bass. Everything else sounded good ie detail, imaging etc, but very light on bass
I reset the balance on the arm with this set up. Tracking force and anti skate set to 1.5
Still sounded the same
2) Swapped it for the tech original headshell/stanton 500 cart and set up the tonearm. Tracking force/anti skate at 2. The fuller sound is back with decent bass. Not as refined as 1) and sometimes control is lost at the extremes in terms of the bass but generally a much fuller sound. Or as somebody (?Marco) described it, less 'anaemic'
(VTA was set by eye for both, I'm awaiting my tonearm spirit level to do this more accurately)
This can only mean one of two things
a) This is just the inherent sound of the AT cart in my set up (Something Marco warned me about)
b) The AT cart is 'damaged'. I did manage to very slightly perforate the black plastic shrink wrap of the white litz wire such that I can see the silver wire through it. This would probably be unlikely to be the cause.
Assuming a) is the issue then I still need to find the right cart. I need something with the bass slam of the Stanton but with the added refinement/detail/imaging of the AT.
A cart that doesn't lose control of the bass as the Stanton does sometimes but also doesn't try and resolve this issue by just sucking out all the bass as the AT seems to do.
Just to be clear I'm not one of those people who listens to distortion or a things rattling and thinks that's great bass. But I want accurate, well controlled bass. I chose large 4 driver speakers because I know they can produce exactly this.
I just need the right cart!
Thanks to all for your help
David,
Buy a Nagaoka MP200, and trust me, your cartridges woes will be over:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7799/nagaokamp200.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/nagaokamp200.jpg/)
http://www.musonic.co.uk/mp200-cartridge-p-83.html
There is where your ideal balance of sonic virtues lies... Strap her onto your Sumiko, and then bask in vinyl heaven! :trust:
Marco.
David,
Buy a Nagaoka MP200, and trust me, your cartridges woes will be over:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7799/nagaokamp200.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/nagaokamp200.jpg/)
http://www.musonic.co.uk/mp200-cartridge-p-83.html
There is where your ideal balance of sonic virtues lies... Strap her onto your Sumiko, and then bask in vinyl heaven! :trust:
Marco.
Thanks Marco, I would have been better off trusting you in the first place as I think you warned me about this happening:doh:
However as I can't afford to buy another unsuitable cart I need to proceed with caution.:)
The blurb on the net says the MP200 is 'ideal for classical and jazz music' and as you know I don't listen to that genre.
Are you sure it will cope with my dance music fetish and give detail, imaging and the thumping but controlled bass line that my ears yearn for?
Thanks again:):)
If you like the sound and weight of the Stanton, why not buy a more upmarket model like the 681EEE?
kininigin
13-04-2012, 09:55
Hi david,
I don't know what your budget is,but if marco is suggesting the Nag mp200 then it's a fair bit by the looks of it.
If so my suggestion would be this tone arm http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jelco-SA-750D-tonearm-Linn-SME-Rega-tone-arm-/280862898691?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Turntables&hash=item4164bbba03
Then try to find an original US made Shure SC35C or get an Goldring G800 retipped.
I have the jelco and shure combo and listen to mainly electronic dance type music,and trust me no issues with lack of bass :eyebrows: Here's a write up on both carts by marco and some of my waffling :lol: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12745
Just something to consider :)
Hi David,
The blurb on the net says the MP200 is 'ideal for classical and jazz music' and as you know I don't listen to that genre.
Are you sure it will cope with my dance music fetish and give detail, imaging and the thumping but controlled bass line that my ears yearn for?
Yes, I also read that. Ignore it, as it's simply advertising blurb, designed to sell the product to its target market. 'Audiophiles', after all, tend to listen to jazz and classical, rather more than dance music... The website is hardly going to say: 'Dis bad-boy is perfect for thumpin' out some bangin' tunes'! ;)
More seriously, if a cartridge excels with (highly demanding) jazz and classical music, you can bet your boots it'll handle dance music with equal aplomb! :exactly:
The reason I picked the MP200 is because it's an extremely capable cartridge, and the highest 'SPPV' (sound-per-pound value) option in the current Nagaoka range, which basically means that the more expensive models in the range will only give a small percentage of improvement over it (the law of diminishing returns).
The better Nagaokas in the current range, such as the MP200, have the 'balls' of the Stanton and the refinement of the AT, due to the extreme high quality of the styli they use, and the cartridges also work very well indeed on the stock Techy arm, therefore the MP200 should provide you with the best of both worlds.
Do some research on Nagaoka, as a company, and you'll discover just how special and unique their in-house design skills are... Once you've done that, shop around for the best price for an MP200, as Musonic may not be the cheapest.
Martin also makes an excellent suggestion, with the Stanton 681EEE MKIII. As such, you may find this thread of interest: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4095
The best place to buy one is from Juno: http://www.juno.co.uk/products/stanton-681-eee-mkiii-cartridge-stylus/308807-01/
The decision is yours. Either cartridge will be a huge step-up on what you're using now. Ultimately the MP200 will have more class and refinement, due to its superior stylus, but the Stanton will give you about 85% of the performance of the Nagaoka, for rather less expenditure.
My advice? If you can afford it, go for the Nagaoka, as overall, it'll put a bigger smile on your face. It'll also stand some significant upgrades in the tonearm department, and so it would be a cartridge you'd not need to upgrade for quite a while :)
Marco.
Thanks Darren, I was trying to hold off uprating the arm as yet. My plan was to get a nice cart for now, then a psu and finally if funds allowed going for a funk firm or OL silver tonearm.
Martin that's a good idea re; stanton 681EEE.
I think it's a toss up between the stanton 681 EEE and the Nagoaka that Marco recommended. Having never had heard either any guidance would be appreciated.
Marco, you have pm:)
And you have a reply :)
Here's some interesting info on Nagaoka, as a company: http://www.nagaoka.co.jp/product/index_e.html
Have a read about their diamond machining technology - it's rather enlightening and gives an intriguing insight into the kind of expertise that they have at their disposal!
Marco.
l had the Stanton 681EEE, and it is was a good leaner, sounded pinched and quite boring next to my Stanton 520/ 520, all on the 1200/ Sumiko headshell, plus sides were, more refinement, and better tracking............. l sold the 681EE, and kept my 520/500, ( all opinions relate to my system and room)
Thanks.
My tonearm spirit level arrived today. As hard as I tried I could not get the sumiko head/at440 level. I tried 0-6 VTA and tried twisting the headshell either way but could never get that blasted bubble anywhere near the window!
The Stanton/tech headshell was easy to get level with the vta at near 0 and a slight twist of the headshell.
Anyway, the at440 continues to sound devoid of any bass and the stanton though fun loses control of the bass and doesn't sound very refined. I need something in the middle.
Decisions, decisions.....
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7519/mp200g.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/mp200g.jpg/)
Marco.
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7519/mp200g.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/mp200g.jpg/)
Marco.
If you've got something to say I really wish you wouldn't beat around the bush, just say it:lol::lol:
Ok, will pull the trigger on one of these once I've found the best price.
Have a great weekend:cool::cool:
As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words ;)
Smart move. Have a great weekend!
Marco.
As hard as I tried I could not get the sumiko head/at440 level. I tried 0-6 VTA and tried twisting the headshell either way but could never get that blasted bubble anywhere near the window!
There's your problem, David. Stop everything until you get that right! Are you resting the stylus on the surface of a non-spinning record? With the spirit level on the flat surface of the headshell you should be able to get that bubble centred. If you can't, something is seriously wrong.
There's your problem, David. Stop everything until you get that right! Are you resting the stylus on the surface of a non-spinning record? With the spirit level on the flat surface of the headshell you should be able to get that bubble centred. If you can't, something is seriously wrong.
I also have this issue with the Sumiko and the spirit level, would have said something but there was no point as David had already ordered it. The Sumiko holds the cart very high so with a smaller cartridge the arm pillar cannot be lowered far enough to get the Sumiko level, although it is not far off. Hence I am looking for a new quality headshell at the moment.
I doubt a different headshell will resolve this issue.
I doubt a different headshell will resolve this issue.
Would you care to elaborate?
In that case use a headshell spacer to lower the cartridge.
I'd agree with Mark.
Whilst Martin is right to question David's inability to get things properly level, the issue David has is much more to do with the inherent sonic signature of the AT (no matter how well set-up) than any set-up deficiencies themselves, which would impact on the sound in a rather different way to what David is describing.
Marco.
Yes I'm doing it with a non spinning record as mentioned. There are only a limited number of things you can do to get it level
1) Adjust the vta. This doesn't resolve it.
2) Twist the headshell slightly. This doesn't resolve it either. I've read people talking about twisting the cart itself but I really can't see how this works. Once the screws are done up the cart will only sit in one position securely.
The tonearm spirit level implies that (as you look down the 'barrel' of the cart/arm) that the left (inner) side of the cart is higher than the right (outer) side of the cart.
But I cannot see how I can resolve this
Edited to say there is one thing that springs to mind that may have caused this. I lost one of the original nuts that go on the bolts supplied with the headshell to hold the cart. So I sourced one from elsewhere. It fits perfectly and looks the same thickness to the naked eye. Could it be that it's thickness is marginally different?
David,
You need to adjust (raise/lower) the feet on the turntable and/or the support table/rack it's sitting on, along with the other things you mention, in order to achieve what you need.
The first thing you should always do is ensure that the T/T is 100% level on the support it's sitting on, and THEN take it from there with the other adjustments.
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
14-04-2012, 11:20
Crazy thought, but is the bottom of your spirit level at 90 degrees to the vertical when it's placed on a known level?
Put it on a surface, rotate it & try again. Is the bubble in the same place or not?
Would you care to elaborate?
Well, the mounting plane relative to the fixing centre (of the headshell) is not very different from one headshell to another - at least, it is within a couple of mm and this should be easily compensated for by adjusting the arm height. I just don't see headshell differences being all that influential in this instance.
Yes - Marco & Chris are right: the turntable must be absolutely level to start with, and the spirit level must be true (bubble stays true when the spirit level is rotated 180 degrees).
If the headshell won't twist correctly after that, it may be that its socket is not true to the surface of the 'shell. This would indicate an assembly issue.
Marco, I put another spirit level on the platter and did just that. The deck is 100% level according to this reading.
Chris, thanks, will check that.
Thanks
If the arm appears to angle down towards the headshell you need to either lower the back of the arm or, if it is already at its lowest setting, fit a spacer between the headshell and the top of the cartridge body (longer bolts may be needed).
Well, the mounting plane relative to the fixing centre (of the headshell) is not very different from one headshell to another - at least, it is within a couple of mm and this should be easily compensated for by adjusting the arm height. I just don't see headshell differences being all that influential in this instance.
Which is what I thought but I don't have this issue with the two other headshells I have tried one of which is the stock Technics. Both allow enough room to have the assembly level, tail up or tail down. Has to be Sumiko-related.:scratch:
EDIT I am going to try to asses level another way on the assunption my spirit bubble isn't true.
This whole thread reminds me how difficult it is to identify and resolve issues like this at a distance. So often the answer lies in something the OP has omitted from their description (often because they don't believe it relevant or don't appreciate its relevance).
We don't really know what the frame of reference is when the OP complains of reduced bass. As Marco writes, it could well be a fundamental issue regarding the tonal balance of cartridges. It could also be a VTA issue, but this would be a much more subtle difference. For a start, I would like to know how far off horizontal (parallel) the armtube is to the record surface - a picture of this would be helpful.
Yes indeed, I believe Chris requested a photo some while back ;)
Sorry about the quality of pics they are from my phone. First couple are with my std head/stanton cart and then the others are with the sumiko/at 440. There are pics to show that with the former the arm is level but the bubble is off centre with the latter
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-14161459.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-14161603-2.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-14161749.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-14161803.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-14161816.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-14161840.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-14161912.jpg
A couple of my speakers for no good reason other than that they are gorgeous!!
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-14162012.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-14162031.jpg
Thanks for looking
David - it's hard to see but is the arm tail down with the Sumiko headshell?
looking at the pics of the second cartridge it looks like the spirit level suggests the back of the arm needs to be lowered a millimetre or so - I very much doubt that this is the cause of your bass issue.
Thanks guys. On my way out now but will post some more pics tomorrow to give a better idea what is going on.
I have tried moving the vta but it makes little difference.
I think, as stated, it's not the cause of the bass issue but I would still like to hear the 440 set up correctly before i ditch it for another cart.
Thanks again!
Azimuth on the Sumiko headshell is out, so you may get one stronger channel than the other, in another picture, the tail end of the arm looks high,and in another picture, the arm looks lower?
Yeah, unfortunately the angle of the pics makes it very difficult to judge - one minute the arm looks high then it looks pretty level, then low.
I know it seems logical that uneven azimuth will make one channel louder but my experience is that isn't really the case and the actual effect is a bit more subtle and complex. Anyway, the azimuth angle that a level placed on your headshell reads and the actual azimuth the stylus sees could be quite different, it depends on how accurately your stylus is mounted.
I see you have MA speakers. Ive heard that model quite a few times and it is voiced towards the lean and fast side of things. When marched to the similarly voiced AT I think it's probably too lean (much as Marco has suggested).
Take the stylus guard of the AT
Canetoad
14-04-2012, 18:08
I can adjust azimuth on my Sumiko headshell. Just adjust it. :)
Good point, Bernie...
David, if you loosen the allen bolt at the back of the Sumiko headshell, it allows you to move the headshell to the left or the right inside the arm.
From the pic you showed of your Sumiko earlier, I reckon that a small twist to the right should sort it! :)
Marco.
Audioman
14-04-2012, 18:56
Aside cartridge adjustment - lack of Bass/Lean sound - AT + Whest + Lygdorf + MA = Very Lean sound. Short term solution fat and warm sounding cartridge. Suggestion try some powerfull valve amps since you obviously love the speakers. Always fancied a pair of these but warmer front end and amps needed. They should produce very good bass extension potentialy.
I don't know what the effective mass of the Technics arm is, but if suitable i would recommend a Denon MC (I'm not a big fan of MM cartridges in general).
Excellent analysis, Paul... David's system (on paper) does lack a little 'meat on the bone', as it were, which is why he should never have bought the AT! :doh:
Not to worry though, we all make mistakes. The trick is to learn from them...
The Nagaoka cartridge I've recommended isn't fat and warm sounding, but it does have the necessary tonal richness (mixed with detail) to help sort out David's front end.
Now, if only he'll stop fannying around and order the bugger!! ;)
Marco.
Whest ... = Very Lean sound
I don't think so!
Reid Malenfant
14-04-2012, 19:50
Tell em Martin :wetkipper:
:eyebrows:
I don't think so!
Yup, and I thought as much when I agreed with Paul. However, the overall balance (on paper) of David's other kit was on the lean side, so I didn't see the point in singling out the Whest as being different :)
Those Hashimotos do give your Whest more balls than usual, though! ;)
Marco.
RobbieGong
14-04-2012, 20:17
I don't know what the effective mass of the Technics arm is, but if suitable i would recommend a Denon MC (I'm not a big fan of MM cartridges in general).
Curious as to what generally you dont like about MM's - BTW, not dissin' your personal preference, I'm just curious :)
Also the Technie arm is lightish so not ideal for the similarly priced Denons that the guys here like ie: DL 103's, 110, 160
I don't know what the effective mass of the Technics arm is, but if suitable i would recommend a Denon MC (I'm not a big fan of MM cartridges in general).
Good thought, Mark... Sonically, a DL-103 would be perfect. Trouble is, it'd take a lot of faffing around to get it to sound right on the Techy arm - I know, I've been there!
And then there's the question of step-up transformers, to optimise it, which is more cost. I was trying to keep things simple for David.
I know you don't like MMs, but trust me, the top Nagaokas are rather special, and the MP200 sounds rather like a DL-103, sharing many of its renowned sonic qualities :)
Marco.
Those Hashimotos do give your Whest more balls than usual, though! ;)
The Hashimotos give anything more balls :lol:
Audioman
14-04-2012, 23:29
I don't think so!
I was talking in context of the components combined. When I have heard systems with the Whest I couldn't pinpoint any particular signiture I could attribute to it so I assume it is pretty neutral. A valve phono stage would add warmth though (or SUT ?). I think in the context of the present front end Whest 30RDT is a bit OTT.
[/B]
Curious as to what generally you dont like about MM's - BTW, not dissin' your personal preference, I'm just curious :)
Also the Technie arm is lightish so not ideal for the similarly priced Denons that the guys here like ie: DL 103's, 110, 160
Well, I find that, in general, they lack air, fine delicacy and the last ounce of tonal colour and can (though not necessarily) sound comparatively 'crude' compared to a good, low output, MC (nothing to do with the missing bass the OP is complaining of).
I did say I didn't know the mass of the Technics arm - if it is too low, I agree, the Denon should not be considered.
Good morning.:)
I must say I have never thought of my set up as 'lean'. I would describe it as 'accurate' or 'neutral' or 'tonally balanced'.
I've chosen the components specifically to try and achieve this. Also don't forget there are some valves in the mix ie the Audio Research LS17.
The only component imho that is a bit lean is the Lyngdorf amp but I do sometimes bi amp my speakers with two Quad 909 amps instead for a change.
But I do take the general point you guys are making, it's about system synergy. Because when I play a CD through my Quad CDP2 the sound is not lean to my ears, it's just perfect.
Anyway, I really appreciate the help. I'm in bed at the moment (nursing a hangover:() but I'll try and adjust the cart with the bolts Marco mentioned.
I think what others have said is right though, adjusting it isn't going to resolve the bass issue. Everything else about the cart sounds fine, it just seems devoid of bass. Surprising as this cart is used by a lot of people with a Tech.
It is important that I set the cart up properly though. I need to hear it exactly as it's meant to be heard before I sell it.
Thanks again:)
Does the Whest have a warp filter? If so can you dial it out or bypass it?
Does the Whest have a warp filter?
No, no controls whatsoever except for internal gain and loading.
Audioman
15-04-2012, 10:24
Good morning.:)
I must say I have never thought of my set up as 'lean'. I would describe it as 'accurate' or 'neutral' or 'tonally balanced'.
I've chosen the components specifically to try and achieve this. Also don't forget there are some valves in the mix ie the Audio Research LS17.
The only component imho that is a bit lean is the Lyngdorf amp but I do sometimes bi amp my speakers with two Quad 909 amps instead for a change.
But I do take the general point you guys are making, it's about system synergy. Because when I play a CD through my Quad CDP2 the sound is not lean to my ears, it's just perfect.
Anyway, I really appreciate the help. I'm in bed at the moment (nursing a hangover:() but I'll try and adjust the cart with the bolts Marco mentioned.
I think what others have said is right though, adjusting it isn't going to resolve the bass issue. Everything else about the cart sounds fine, it just seems devoid of bass. Surprising as this cart is used by a lot of people with a Tech.
It is important that I set the cart up properly though. I need to hear it exactly as it's meant to be heard before I sell it.
Thanks again:)
I do appreciate people have different tastes and you have clearly balanced this set up for CD. Does using the Quad 909's improve matters ? While an AT is lean it should not be devoid of bass. Worth checking your settings on the Whest. Also the unmodded Technics may not be the bassmeister we are led to believe by some. Try experimenting with isolation and raise the arm geometry if possible so arm is slightly downsloping. The Whest is expensive kit and deserves a better cartridge.
Having said that your AT gets great reviews by SH members using the Technics SL1200. You could try ATOC9/AT33 which are lean/neutral as you appear to prefer. My OC9 is not lacking bass and it would just about work in the Technics arm. I do think you would have a much better vinyl playing system if the TT v phono stage budget had been reversed.
Also the unmodded Technics may not be the bassmeister we are led to believe by some. .
Nope - the unmodded Technics is definately not short of bass. Quality bass with slam. That is certainly not the problem.
In terms of the at 440 set up this is what I've now found. Even with the vta set to 0 the only way to get the cart level is if the cart is raised about 1cm (or of course if the rear of the arm was dropped 1cm)
I presume this means I would need a spacer (as mentioned by somebody earlier). I probably won't bother with this as I'm pretty sure it won't resolve the bass issue.
Hi Paul, perhaps 'devoid of bass' was too strong a description. Let's say it lacks bass reproduction to an extent that I don't think I'm hearing the music as it was meant to be heard. I listen to mainly dance music and if there is no bass slam then it's a waste of time.
In terms of my Whest it's like this. About three months ago I didn't own any part of the vinyl chain. I needed a TT, phono stage, cart etc all in one go. I didn't want to buy entry level everything and then upgrade every bit every few months, that's a very expensive and time consuming way to do things.
A well loved second hand Whest came up in the classifieds for a 'reasonable price'
My reasoning for buying it was that I could really test the SL1200 hypothesis ie that with some well thought out mods it can perform to a high level. With the Whest in the chain I would know that nothing else is holding it back (ie I already have decent preamp, amps, speakers etc)
The plan was to throw some money at the Tech and see if I could hear improvements. If I could then I'd continue down that road and spend more on it. If I couldn't hear improvements then I'd strip the Tech back to standard and flog it and the mods. Then I'd try a different (more expensive/high end) deck
Even if I got back only half of what I spent on the Tech (and mods) I wouldn't be massively out of pocket.
So the Whest is there as a keeper, the deck can always be replaced if it doesn't deliver.
I hope that makes sense?
I've also rechecked the Whest settings and they are 47k load and 43 gain. I presume this is correct?
Did you try adjusting the Sumiko headshell, like we discussed, David?
Anyway, regardless of that, it's not going to make a hill of beans of difference, in terms of you liking the AT. It just isn't your kind of cartridge, mate.
You need that Nagaoka, so get yer mits in yer pocket and get it bought, is my advice! ;)
Marco.
I've also rechecked the Whest settings and they are 47k load and 43 gain. I presume this is correct?
Yep
Thanks Mark.
Marco, yes I did try the adjustment. The issue is that even with the vta at 0 I can only get the cart level if the cart is raised (or arm base lowered) by another 1cm or so.
Obviously this can't be done at the arm base level (ie vta already 0) so I presume it would require some kind of spacer for the cart?
But as you said it's not going to make the sort of magnitude of change that I require so I won't bother trying to get a spacer.
Point taken on the Nagaoka but one more question please?:)
Would you recommend any other cart (even if it were substantially more expensive) that would future proof me?
By that I mean even if I didn't appreciate it being better than the MP200 now perhaps when I modded further (ie PSU, arm etc) then it's superiority would shine through.
Thanks again:)
If the standard arm of your Technics deck is of a low mass design (as others have suggested it is), then it isn't suited to any of the more expensive cartridges I would recommend. Perhaps you should consider your turntable modifications first.
Audioman
15-04-2012, 18:21
I've also rechecked the Whest settings and they are 47k load and 43 gain. I presume this is correct?
Can you change capacitance because this is relevant to MM but not MC ?
Why not have a TT bake off.
At least you will get to hear different carts arms decks in your own system which may help tell you which way forward.
Carts are one of the hardest things to buy imo.
As untill it is in your system you don't know how it will sound.
With other components you can get a rough idea from shows demos bake offs etc.
Sorry David but if your arm height error is 1cm (are you sure about this), then that is a huge error in SRA (stylus rake angle) and the cartridge will sound pants. Have you tried it in a Technics headshell? I'm not convinced just yet that you're not hearing the effects of gross SRA error.
Well I would agree with Martin that 10mm is a huge amount off parallel. I'm not sure I've ever listened to a cartridge with the cartridge angled as seriously as this. When I think about adjusting VTA it is +/- 1mm or do (2mm at most).
I'm definitely sure:)
This is what I am doing....
1) Tonearm balanced and then tracking force and anti skate applied
2) The spirit level is placed on headshell just above cart (headshell surface is flat)
3) VTA set to 0
4) Needle placed on record
5) Bubble on spirit level can only be centred if I use the arm lift and raise the arm such that the cart is suspended 1cm above record.
Are there any further photos I could provide to help diagnose what is going on?:scratch:
Thanks again:)
Stratmangler
15-04-2012, 21:31
This is quite informative...
fdxAn64aK3Y
...check out from around 3 minutes 30 seconds.
Your description seems pretty conclusive; no amount of changing headshells is going to make up that much difference!
Stratmangler
15-04-2012, 21:35
VTA set to 0
Not many of us have the standard arm on the deck, so this probably doesn't mean very much to most of us Techie users :eyebrows:
Here are some pics. To achieve this
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-15223325.jpg
I need to do this
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-15223344.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-15223405.jpg
Stratmangler
15-04-2012, 22:01
Looking at the photos setting 0 is the maximum height of the VTA adjustment.
That arm looks pretty well parallel to the record, and it's on the up position of the cueing lever.
Yep - something is seriously wrong, but I can't work out what. Will the arm base definitely not go any lower? Forget the setting, just try and move it down.
Stratmangler
15-04-2012, 23:00
Yep - something is seriously wrong, but I can't work out what. Will the arm base definitely not go any lower? Forget the setting, just try and move it down.
That's my thinking entirely Martin.
I'm pleased that you also pointed out my earlier request for photos - I had a gut feeling that the entire scenario was not being proffered.
The pictures posted have proved far more useful than any of the descriptions of tonearm setup, which is why I asked for them in the first place.
As I said before with the Sumiko headshell and stock arm you cannot get the arm pillar low enough to make the arm parallel with the record - unless you are using a tall cartridge - I have the same issue except that as the Stanton I use is taller than the AT the error is much smaller and does not seem to have any negative effect on SQ.
Indeed... And I'm afraid that's the challenge you face with the stock Technics arm, as it will only work with certain cartridges, and it's why I didn't recommend a DL-103 to David, even though its sonic qualities would be the perfect tonic for his system.
The most recent iteration of the Technics arm was really only designed to be used with DJ cartidges. Yes, the bearings are decent quality, but the benefit of those is vastly diluted by the effect of the flimsy and highly resonant arm-tube, so you can fit better headshells, rewire it and fluid damp it, until the cows come home (as indeed I did), but it will never be anything much more than an average tonearm, really only suited for use with MM cartridges.
That is why the Funk-modified version of the Technics arm fundamentally tackles the problems of the stock arm-tube, by changing it for a carbon-fibre one. That done, along with the other mods mentioned above, which Funk address, and you have a superb tonearm - at a price!
Therefore, David, to answer your earlier question:
Would you recommend any other cart (even if it were substantially more expensive) that would future proof me?
By that I mean even if I didn't appreciate it being better than the MP200 now perhaps when I modded further (ie PSU, arm etc) then it's superiority would shine through.
The frank and honest answer is that the stock tonearm will always be a huge limiting factor, especially in a system like yours, which really deserves a much better vinyl front end (although I fully understand why you've done what you've done).
Therefore, if you want to funadmentally sort the issue you have with a lack of bass, and intend to live with the Techy for longer, then the only real way of doing it is to upgrade the tonearm. This will then allow you to use some quality MC cartridges that will deliver the bass depth and overall refinement you're looking for.
So if it's future proofing that you really want, then my advice is to change the stock arm and fit a Jelco SA-750, and use it with a DL-103 cartridge, and your Sumiko. You'd love the sound of the Denon, as it would be right up your street! Jelco arm available from here: http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/tone-arms-headshells/98-jelco-sa-750d-tone-arm.html
Cartridge available from here: http://www.harrowaudiohifi.co.uk/products/320-denon-dl103-dl-103-moving-coil-cartridge.aspx
For a total spend of £589.45 (plus tonearm cable and armboard of your choice), you'd have a 'sorted solution', which would allow you to properly assess the sonic potential of the Techy (helping decide if you want to pursue modding it further) and produce fabulous sounding music during the process - and if you want to go even better on the cartridge front, then simply choose one of the 'posher' Denons, such as a Zu-modified DL-103, or a DL-103SA, either in which case will provide you with a 'cartridge for life'.
If however, you simply want to make the most of the existing tonearm, then buy the Nagaoka, as it will cope best with the stock tonearm's sonic limitations, and still give you a big upgrade on what you're using now.
Hope this helps! :cool:
Marco.
Interesting, thanks.
I'm surprised that the AT 440 doesn't work with the stock arm + sumiko. Given how many people have the sumiko and that the at440 is widely 'recommended' for the tech I would have thought this problem would have been widely reported on the net. ( Macca is the only one who has mentioned it)
The reason I wasn't planning to change the tonearm yet is that I read the stock one wasn't that bad and should be further down the priority list of mods. But I'm happy to review that.
Are we all sure that nothing is being over looked? Could I have done something really stupid in the set up that has caused this? Would any further photos help?
Thanks again for the help
Audioman
16-04-2012, 09:41
Can I give another opinion on this Marco which you may or may not disagree with? David should first ask himself if he is up for some fairly complex DIY in the long run and eventualy spending several thousands on the deck to make it good enough in his high qulaity system. He has had problems identifying the reason for bad repro here so maybe not.
If he is not prepared for the work involved I would suggest go for a high quality belt drive ( at least ORBE or Hyperspace standard) or if he doesn't like the belt drive sound a Garrard 401 or Thorens TD124 mk II. All these with suitable arm and MC cartridge should give him the desired quality and Bass he desires especialy the 401 in a suitabe plinth.
I am mystified by the poor results with the AT440 as this appears to be the favourite cartridge for use with Technics and on the Steve Hoffman forums. Never hear of any problems with it's use. All AT cartridges that I have used are of standard height so would be surprised if this is any different.
The reason I wasn't planning to change the tonearm yet is that I read the stock one wasn't that bad and should be further down the priority list of mods.
It's not bad, within its limitations, and far from the worse thing on the turntable, as standard (the mat and feet come into that category). As usual, the results you get are largely governed by how much you're willing to spend.
You have my advice now on how to proceed from here. The fact is, you could have the most optimally set up AT 440 on the planet. It would matter little, as you don't like how it sounds in the context of your system.
Marco.
anthonyTD
16-04-2012, 10:17
hi All,
I think Marco has hit the nail on the head, i used an AT440ML in my Rock turntable for a while [which by the way is not known for being bass light] and although like many i marveled at its information retreival and exceptional tracking capabilities,i always found it a bit forward sounding and the mid range a bit weak, although this might not be the case in every system it was my findings and it did change slightly depending on weight and set up, but its over-all sonic presentation remained.
A...
Blimey David, you've been quite generous with the credit card on the rest of the system, but when it comes to the TT you've become Mt Thrift (which is quite the wrong way round)! As a result, you've ended up with a right mullet - just buy the blooming cartridge Marco has recommended (though personally I haven't heard a Nagoaka in 20+ years) - it's a pittance compared to what you have spent on other components! Alternatively, bite the bullet and upgrade the deck properly, get a new arm and fit a decent MC cartridge.
Are we all sure that nothing is being over looked? Could I have done something really stupid in the set up that has caused this? Would any further photos help?
David - can you definitely confirm that the arm's VTA adjustment will not go any lower?
Audioman
16-04-2012, 11:02
Blimey David, you've been quite generous with the credit card on the rest of the system, but when it comes to the TT you've become Mt Thrift (which is quite the wrong way round)! As a result, you've ended up with a right mullet - just buy the blooming cartridge Marco has recommended (though personally I haven't heard a Nagoaka in 20+ years) - it's a pittance compared to what you have spent on other components! Alternatively, bite the bullet and upgrade the deck properly, get a new arm and fit a decent MC cartridge.
:thumbsup:
I think I have been hinting at this a number of times with no response. Get your wallet out David and audition some of my suggestions, That system probably would accomodate something much more exotic even. I think you have been a bit swayed by the Techie fanboys on here. :lol:
Hi Paul,
I think I have been hinting at this a number of times with no response.
On the contrary, David has already explained exactly why he's done what he's done:
My reasoning for buying it was that I could really test the SL1200 hypothesis ie that with some well thought out mods it can perform to a high level. With the Whest in the chain I would know that nothing else is holding it back (ie I already have decent preamp, amps, speakers etc)
The plan was to throw some money at the Tech and see if I could hear improvements. If I could then I'd continue down that road and spend more on it. If I couldn't hear improvements then I'd strip the Tech back to standard and flog it and the mods. Then I'd try a different (more expensive/high end) deck...
Which part of that have you failed to grasp? ;)
It may be an unconventional approach, but I understand why he's decided to carry things out that way. In fact, it's rather novel and quite sensible, given that he hasn't yet decided what his T/T is going to be. The Technics is rather unique, in terms of the requirements needed for someone unexperienced to ascertain what its potential is.
I'm sure that otherwise David would simply have shelled out for an appropriate T/T, in keeping with the rest of his system, but then likely ended up with just A-N-other belt-drive T/T, and missed out on what quality direct-drive turntables are sonically capable of...
Get your wallet out David and audition some of my suggestions, That system probably would accomodate something much more exotic even.
Such as? It all comes down to how much David is willing to spend on a turntable. We all know that a stock SL-1200/1210 is, sonically, nothing special. It only becomes so, when judicious modifications have been carried out. Trust me, you would need only a listen to a T/T like Martin's or mine to realise this.
If David's not willing to spend what it takes to turn his Techy into a serious high-end T/T, or even just a very good one, then by all means he should quit now and go a different route, but at the moment he's still at the most basic stage of his plan! Therefore, I think it's wise for him to continue what he set out to do.
Indeed, if he'd listened to me in the first place, before buying the Audio Technica, he'd have been somewhat further on in his quest.....
I think you have been a bit swayed by the Techie fanboys on here.
There are no such "fanboys" here; merely very satisfied users of what is (when suitably modified) an exceptionally good turntable. Whether David succeeds in realising that fact for himself, or not, remains to be seen.
Marco.
Audioman
16-04-2012, 12:10
Hi Paul,
On the contrary, David has already explained exactly why he's done what he's done:
Which part of that have you failed to grasp? ;)
It may be an unconventional approach, but I understand why he's decided to carry things out that way.
Such as? It all comes down to how much David is willing to spend on a turntable. We all know that a stock SL-1200/1210 is, sonically, nothing special. It only becomes so, when judicious modifications have been carried out. Trust me, you would need only a listen to a T/T like Martin's or mine to realise this.
If David's not willing to spend what it takes to turn his Techy into a serious high-end T/T, or even just a very good one, then by all means he should quit now and go a different route, but at the moment he's still at the most basic stage of his plan! Therefore, I think it's wise for him to continue what he set out to do.
Indeed, if he'd listened to me in the first place, before buying the Audio Technica, he'd have been somewhat further on in his quest.....
Marco. I have not failed to grasp anything David has explained. I'm just not convinced he may be going down the right path for him. Frankly given the revealing (and expensive) nature of the system I believe he needs to start with a higher level of front end whether it is a modified Technics or a high end belt drive. I don't think he is going to be satisfied with merely a change of cartridge. I don't presume to know his budget but he stated he has gone for the best he can afford elsewhere so why not the record deck if he is serious ?
There are no such "fanboys" here; merely very satisfied users of what is (when suitably modified) an exceptionally good turntable. Whether David succeeds in realising that fact for himself, or not, remains to be seen.
Marco.
The 'fanboys' comment was obviously tonge in cheek but given your enthusiasm for your own superb set up I think David may have failed to consider the alternatives. I think his 'unconventional' approach may have been triggered by unfounded expectations of the standard SL1200.
I think putting forward an alternative viewpoint may be helpfull in David coming to the right decision for him. He has a superb set up and I think he should be getting fantastic SQ with all sources especialy vinyl.
Martin, I'm pretty sure the vta will not go any lower. It's on the lowest setting (ie the one even below the 0 mark) and seems to be working correctly. I will double double chec today though.
Paul, I think what you say has a lot of merit. Perhaps it is time to just review what I'm doing and how I'm going about it.
Mark, I'm happy to throw a few quid at the Nagaoka but I just need to make sure it's the right thing. No point buying that and then two days later realising that it still doesn't hit the mark. Or buy the Jelco arm and then realise quickly that I need somethhing better.
It might be better for me to 'go high' right from the beginning ie top end arm and cart in one go. This will be quite a gamble though as in itself that will cost and to get the best out of them I'll have to replace the other weak link ie the psu (and perhaps bearing)
So that could be £2k in a very short space of time. Though I really want a good vinyl system I'm not sure I want to throw mega money at it as it will never replace CD for me.
I was hoping for a happy medium ie tech + decent cart+ feet+mat+ cheaper psu = decent sounding system for a reasonable amount of money. And then perhaps continue to mod if I really had the bug but having something nice to listen to in the mean time.
Anyway, I need to have a bit of a think
It all comes down to how much David is willing to spend on a turntable. We all know that a stock SL-1200/1210 is, sonically, nothing special. It only becomes so, when judicious modifications have been carried out.
Marco.
I'd sorta disagree that the stock deck is 'nothing special'. A good used example picked up for around the £200 mark cannot be beaten at the price. Properly set up and with a sympathetic cartridge it can hold its own against decks costing a lot more. It's metronomic timing and bass depth/slam abilities are way ahead of the field, as is build quality.
I was hoping for a happy medium ie tech + decent cart+ feet+mat+ cheaper psu = decent sounding system for a reasonable amount of money.
Thing is, you've only scratched the surface so far, in terms of carrying out the above modifications, and yet you appear to be expecting to get most of the way there by simply changing the arm's headshell and buying a mediocre cartridge... :scratch:
It's time to up the ante, me thinks! ;)
Marco.
Hi Martin,
I'd sorta disagree that the stock deck is 'nothing special'. A good used example picked up for around the £200 mark cannot be beaten at the price. Properly set up and with a sympathetic cartridge it can hold its own against decks costing a lot more. It's metronomic timing and bass depth/slam abilities are way ahead of the field, as is build quality.
I know what you mean, and agree, but it depends on your available benchmark, and where you've come from, T/T-wise, before buying a Techy. Based on that, it will depend on whether you're impressed or not with the stock item :)
As a result of that, there's was no way that I'd ever have been satisfied with a stock Techy, which is why I had mine fully KAB-modifed, from the beginning, and have taken things slowly forward from there.
Marco.
Hi Martin,
I know what you mean, and agree, but it depends on your available benchmark, and where you've come from, T/T-wise, before buying a stock Techy. Based on that, it will depend on whether you're impressed or not with the stock item :)
As a result of that, there's was no way that I'd ever have been satisfied with a stock Techy, which is why I had mine fully KAB-modifed, from the beginning, and have taken things slowly forward from there.
Marco.
What did you have prior to the SL1210 then Marco?
Hi Paul,
Marco. I have not failed to grasp anything David has explained.
Ok, but that wasn't obvious from your previous response to him. You wrote: "I think I have been hinting at this a number of times with no response", when David had clearly already provided one.
I'm just not convinced he may be going down the right path for him. Frankly given the revealing (and expensive) nature of the system I believe he needs to start with a higher level of front end whether it is a modified Technics or a high end belt drive. I don't think he is going to be satisfied with merely a change of cartridge.
Neither do I, but I appreciate why he's done things the way he has. I'm not sure that you do.
I don't presume to know his budget but he stated he has gone for the best he can afford elsewhere so why not the record deck if he is serious ?
The fact that you have to ask that question strongly suggests you still haven't fully grasped his earlier explanation! :doh:
The 'fanboys' comment was obviously tonge in cheek but given your enthusiasm for your own superb set up I think David may have failed to consider the alternatives. I think his 'unconventional' approach may have been triggered by unfounded expectations of the standard SL1200.
You could well be correct. I of course took the "fanboy" remark in the spirit in which it was intended, but at the same time wishing to trample any notion, not matter how small, that modifying a Techy to a very high level, if you can afford it, is not an extremely satisfactory and worthwhile thing to do! ;)
Marco.
What did you have prior to the SL1210 then Marco?
It might be better to ask what I've not had - lol! I've had all manner of turntables, since 1982 (at 17 years old), when I first got serious with T/Ts, then owing an Ariston RD11S (with HFN 'Flutterbuster' PSU)/Linn LV V/Denon DL-103 combo...
The last T/T I had, before I got my Techy, was an LP12/Norton Airpower PSU/Hadcock GS242 Integra/Koetsu Black Goldline (latterly Lyra Argo i), which was very good indeed, but quite a bit behind my KAB-modded SL1210MK5G, in the areas of music reproduction most important to me...
It was only when I heard the Techy that I grasped how fundamentally flawed, to my ears, are most low to medium-mass belt-drive T/Ts - and of course the rest is history! :)
Marco.
So you also had a belt drive suspended chassis TT previously - that's interesting, thanks Marco. I suppose I really should chuck some money at my 1200 as it is not going to be going anywhere.
Mark, I'm happy to throw a few quid at the Nagaoka but I just need to make sure it's the right thing. No point buying that and then two days later realising that it still doesn't hit the mark. Or buy the Jelco arm and then realise quickly that I need somethhing better.
It might be better for me to 'go high' right from the beginning ie top end arm and cart in one go. This will be quite a gamble though as in itself that will cost and to get the best out of them I'll have to replace the other weak link ie the psu (and perhaps bearing)
Yes, I understand entirely your position. Perhaps some kind forum chap, with a Technics modified in the way you are thinking, might agree to pop over and play it in your system?
So you also had a belt drive suspended chassis TT previously - that's interesting, thanks Marco.
Indeed, and it was precisely why I could so easily 'lock onto' and appreciate the fundamental sonic differences between both.... Around the same time, I also added a Rega P5, simply to play 12" singles, as the Norton PSU, did not enable 45 RPM facility on my LP12. Yes I know that I could've bought a Lingo, or some such, but I had a notion to try one of the better Rega T/Ts, after in the past enjoying using a P3.
I extensively modded the P5, adding Rega's own T/T PSU, a Funk Firm AchroPLAT, to replace the stock Rega platter, and I had the RB700 arm rewired (with Cardas cable) and stripped and polished, by Audio Origami, effectively making it nearly as good as an RB1000, and fitted the Lyra to that.
What came as a bit of a shock was that the above ended up outperforming my Linn! :D
Therefore, I sold the LP12 and used solely the P5, for a few months, before being bitten by the Techy bug (after having carried out considerable research on the subject), and then selling the Rega, using the funds to help pay for the KAB mods on the Techy. Oh, I should add that the KAB-modded Techy ended up outperforming the P5 (and therefore also the LP12)! ;)
Sorry to ramble on, but I thought you may have found the journey to where I am now interesting :)
Marco.
Audioman
16-04-2012, 13:48
Martin, I'm pretty sure the vta will not go any lower. It's on the lowest setting (ie the one even below the 0 mark) and seems to be working correctly. I will double double chec today though.
Paul, I think what you say has a lot of merit. Perhaps it is time to just review what I'm doing and how I'm going about it.
Mark, I'm happy to throw a few quid at the Nagaoka but I just need to make sure it's the right thing. No point buying that and then two days later realising that it still doesn't hit the mark. Or buy the Jelco arm and then realise quickly that I need somethhing better.
It might be better for me to 'go high' right from the beginning ie top end arm and cart in one go. This will be quite a gamble though as in itself that will cost and to get the best out of them I'll have to replace the other weak link ie the psu (and perhaps bearing)
So that could be £2k in a very short space of time. Though I really want a good vinyl system I'm not sure I want to throw mega money at it as it will never replace CD for me.
I was hoping for a happy medium ie tech + decent cart+ feet+mat+ cheaper psu = decent sounding system for a reasonable amount of money. And then perhaps continue to mod if I really had the bug but having something nice to listen to in the mean time.
Anyway, I need to have a bit of a think
David. The best thing is to decide your budget first. It does sound to me that some of the more expensive Technics tweaks may be more than you want to pay. Also consider how much vinyl you have. Are you just starting out ? I think it is important to build up a sizeable collection before you consider a high end deck but given your system you will not be satisfied below a certain quality level. Can't help thinking of those 80's audiophiles with a top Linn/Naim system and a few 'test' records.
Set a budget and research what is available and go and listen. I would also consider selling the Whest and using it to fund a better deck plus a c£1K phono stage. If you payed an attractive used price you can't lose on this. Remember you will need £400-1000 for a reasonable arm and £300/500 for a budget MC. Best of luck in your quest.
Paul.
So you also had a belt drive suspended chassis TT previously - that's interesting, thanks Marco. I suppose I really should chuck some money at my 1200 as it is not going to be going anywhere.
Well, in that respect, you've got a wealth of information here, and lots of friendly folk, to help :)
I think that once you 'tune into' what a good direct-drive T/T does, in terms vinyl music reproduction (as you appear to have done), and those sonic qualities are very important to your enjoyment of music (as they also are to me), then NOTHING else will do!
Marco.
David. The best thing is to decide your budget first. It does sound to me that some of the more expensive Technics tweaks may be more than you want to pay. Also consider how much vinyl you have. Are you just starting out ? I think it is important to build up a sizeable collection before you consider a high end deck but given your system you will not be satisfied below a certain quality level. Can't help thinking of those 80's audiophiles with a top Linn/Naim system and a few 'test' records.
Set a budget and research what is available and go and listen. I would also consider selling the Whest and using it to fund a better deck plus a c£1K phono stage. If you payed an attractive used price you can't lose on this. Remember you will need £400-1000 for a reasonable arm and £300/500 for a budget MC. Best of luck in your quest.
Paul.
Thanks Paul, lots of sensible comments. You are right I don't have that much vinyl, but similarly as you said I'm not happy below a certain level of sound quality
The Whest however is not going anywhere:)
I've never read/heard a bad thing about it, so its a keeper for as long as I have a vinyl system. I'll go forward, sideways or stay still, but never backwards:)
Thanks again:)
Thing is, you've only scratched the surface so far, in terms of carrying out the above modifications, and yet you appear to be expecting to get most of the way there by simply changing the arm's headshell and buying a mediocre cartridge... :scratch:
It's time to up the ante, me thinks! ;)
Marco.
Fair point Marco.
Perhaps I was hoping that I could get away with spending less money:lol:
Being serious though the deck doesn't sound bad, I thought if I could get it sounding a bit better with a new cart then that would keep me happy for a little while.
That was the whole point of the AT 440 but for what ever reason that hasn't quite worked out.
I'd be happy just to keep things as they are for a little while if I could just get a little bit of extra refinement, detail and bass control for now.
As I said I wanted to hear a little improvement as I went along the modding path, this would encourage me that it was a path worth treading.
Perhaps then it is worth me going for the Nagaoka for now, something to allow me to enjoy the deck for a little while until I get the courage to shell out on the more expensive mods.
I hope some of my ramblings make sense:doh:
See if you can borrow some carts off members if they are local.
Audioman
16-04-2012, 15:47
Thanks Paul, lots of sensible comments. You are right I don't have that much vinyl, but similarly as you said I'm not happy below a certain level of sound quality
The Whest however is not going anywhere:)
I've never read/heard a bad thing about it, so its a keeper for as long as I have a vinyl system. I'll go forward, sideways or stay still, but never backwards:)
Thanks again:)
David. I do worry that you are buying based on reviews and other peoples preferences via the internet.
OK accepting you don't want to part with the Whest. I heard a fine sounding system at Scalford that matched an Orbe SE/Audiomods arm with your Whest 30RTD. Don't remember the cartridge but would suggest a Dynavector 20XL for a fuller midrange and bass. Would cost around £3.5K about the same as the Whest new. I think this would provide a good balance with your existing components and a lot less than the full blown Techie mods a la Marco.
Why do I get the impression that there is some psychological pressure on this forum to buy DD turntables ? The best upgrade IMHO is to go out and buy some top quality music on well mastered vinyl. So don't spend it all on the hardware !
Paul.
OK accepting you don't want to part with the Whest. I heard a fine sounding system at Scalford that matched an Orbe SE/Audiomods arm with your Whest 30RTD. Don't remember the cartridge but would suggest a Dynavector 20XL for a fuller midrange and bass. Would cost around £3.5K about the same as the Whest new. I think this would provide a good balance with your existing components and a lot less than the full blown Techie mods a la Marco.
Nothing wrong with that suggestion, but an Orbe will never sound like a modded Techy, providing that the latter is what David is looking for... Perhaps it isn't?
Why do I get the impression that there is some psychological pressure on this forum to buy DD turntables ?
Why do I get the impression from certain quarters that there's a bias against the Techy, and as such, some people will never consider it as a 'serious' turntable, no matter how much it's modified and/or, even when it is, that somehow it's still not 'worth' it?
Do you think that there's any truth in either your above assertion or mine - or is it simply a question of perception? ;)
The best upgrade IMHO is to go out and buy some top quality music on well mastered vinyl. So don't spend it all on the hardware !
Absolutely!! :)
Marco.
In standard form the Techie sounds quite special (the only upgrades I have fitted to mine at the mo are a set of Vantage Audio feet and an SME Series III arm). To put this in perspective my Techie replaced a rather special Thorens TD160 MKII simply because it sounds way better than the Thorens. I was sceptical about the merits of this so called DJ deck up until that point, I'm a total convert now...
Audioman
16-04-2012, 17:17
Nothing wrong with that suggestion, but an Orbe will never sound like a modded Techy, providing that the latter is what David is looking for... Perhaps it isn't?
I'm not sure that David knows what he wants exactly and may lack the vinyl playback experience to do so. I do think given he wants HQ sound now and given the amount of vinyl he has my suggestion will more than satisfy him. Particularly as he does not want to spend too much and he thinks CD will remain more important a source. Also the softer BD sound may well integrate better with his Monitor Audio speakers.
Why do I get the impression from certain quarters that there is a bias against the Techy, and as such, some people will never consider it as a 'serious' turntable, no matter how much it's modified and/or, even when it is, that somehow it's still not 'worth' it?
Do you think that there's any truth in either your above assertion or mine - or is it simply a question of perception? ;)
Personaly I have no doubt it is a serious TT when upgraded and perfectly adequate at its selling price (when in production). I'm sure others may feel differently. All depends what sound you want to achieve and how nuch modding you are prepared to do. Heard good and bad of both Belt and Direct drive systems.
I do get the impression though some people are being convinced that DD is superior without finding out for themselves. If you just select equipment by reading internet forums (not necessarily AOS) you are not going to end up with a system you are satisfied with. Just as bad as selecting from What Hi-FI 5 star reviews IMO.
Obviously I can only speak from my own experience Paul, but I listened to the Thorens and the Techie side by side (I was lucky enough to own two Series III arms at the time so I had one fitted to each deck) and I can honestly say that the SL1210 walked all over the Thorens (incidentally I didn't want it to, I loved the look of the old girl, especially with its white Bob Bean top plate). How it would fare in standard form against something a little more upmarket I can only guess...
Audioman
16-04-2012, 18:07
Obviously I can only speak from my own experience Paul, but I listened to the Thorens and the Techie side by side (I was lucky enough to own two Series III arms at the time so I had one fitted to each deck) and I can honestly say that the SL1210 walked all over the Thorens (incidentally I didn't want it to, I loved the look of the old girl, especially with its white Bob Bean top plate). How it would fare in standard form against something a little more upmarket I can only guess...
Dave.
I had a Thorens 20+ years ago. I imagine it will sound rather warm and sluggish against your Technics as well as modern high quality belt drives. Mitchell decks are in a different league. I hope your not trying to suggest that a standard Technics outperforms an Orbe by implication. A belt drive with heavy platter and accurate electronic speed control will sound extremely stable in playing music. As you say you can only guess against more expensive products.
I think this is the sort of posting I was aiming at with my comments though i'm sure it is unintentional. An opinion in the context of your own experience with totaly different products becomes a definitive statement that converts the lazy 'internet shopper' to purchase something without verifying for his or her self.
I have no problem with people coming to conclusions after auditioning the alternatives. I am quite happy to believe that the SL1200 produced the best sound at it's price point. Then again some people will prefer Rega 3's. I just think there are so many here declaring their Techy love that vinyl newbies may be taking 'Technics SL1200 is best' as the definitive truth. YMMV.
I am pretty sure in this case David is looking for something more refined than the standard SL1200 as he has such a high quality and revealing system.
I have not heard a standard, or even a reasonably standard SL1200/1210 next to an Orbe so I really couldn't comment on such a comparison, which is why I didn't... :scratch:
Thanks all comments appreciated.
Paul, perhaps the tech was a lazy purchase but I wanted an entry into vinyl that wasn't too expensive and suited to my genre of music. I also needed something that would play 45/33 rpm at the flick of a switch.
Before we go any further though I need to spend some time on the system tomorrow. I listened to some cds today and must say that they sounded a little light on the bass as well. Everything is working and wired correctly so it may be my room correction device.
As I've been playing around wiring and positioning the deck over the last few weeks I've had to move the speakers quite a few times.
:doh:
The room correction device is quite sensitive to even small movements. It is set up with a mic in the listening position etc.
It could be that these movements of the speakers have upset the RP1. In which case I could.have been wasting everybodies time for the last x pages:doh:
Audioman
16-04-2012, 19:18
Thanks all comments appreciated.
Paul, perhaps the tech was a lazy purchase but I wanted an entry into vinyl that wasn't too expensive and suited to my genre of music. I also needed something that would play 45/33 rpm at the flick of a switch.
Before we go any further though I need to spend some time on the system tomorrow. I listened to some cds today and must say that they sounded a little light on the bass as well. Everything is working and wired correctly so it may be my room correction device.
As I've been playing around wiring and positioning the deck over the last few weeks I've had to move the speakers quite a few times.
:doh:
The room correction device is quite sensitive to even small movements. It is set up with a mic in the listening position etc.
It could be that these movements of the speakers have upset the RP1. In which case I could.have been wasting everybodies time for the last x pages:doh:
Well I'm convinced you need a better front end whatever way you go about it. I have no experience of room correction devices. Have you considered removing this and using your ears to set up? Try and adjust room acoustics by introducing or removing soft furnishings. Usualy there are not many practical options for where your speakers should be. Probably best along a longer wall spaced well apart. What are the manufacturers recommendations? Do speakers require wall reinforcement? Perhaps some others here will have some views/advice on this.
Mmm... I'm not a fan of active room correction, as IME it's usually no more than a band-aid, and overall can do more harm than good, as the added circuitry in the signal path imparts its own (often negative) sonic signature on proceedings.
However, passive room treatment is fine, and can be very effective.
Paul, I'll get to your other posts later :)
Marco.
Well I'm convinced you need a better front end whatever way you go about it. I have no experience of room correction devices. Have you considered removing this and using your ears to set up? Try and adjust room acoustics by introducing or removing soft furnishings. Usualy there are not many practical options for where your speakers should be. Probably best along a longer wall spaced well apart. What are the manufacturers recommendations? Do speakers require wall reinforcement? Perhaps some others here will have some views/advice on this.
There is no doubt I could do with a better vinyl front end and that my existing system could do it justice. The question is whether it is worth the investment for me.:)
There will be a certain amount of cash that I'll be prepared to spend to have the option to play vinyl and enjoy it. However if that cost is huge then I may have to reconsider and just stick to those horrible shiny discs;)
I would really like the ability to play vinyl to a decent standard though and will persevere to achieve this at a 'reasonable' cost.
In terms of room acoustics, see my reply to Marco:)
Which reply is that, then? So are you going to get the Nagaoka? :)
Marco.
Mmm... I'm not a fan of active room correction, as IME it's usually no more than a band-aid, and overall can do more harm than good, as the added circuitry imparts its own (often negative) sonic signature.
However, passive room treatment is fine, and can be very effective.
Paul, I'll get to your other posts later :)
Marco.
If you have never actually heard high level room correction devices such as the Lyngdorf RP1 (not to be confused with earlier Tact devices) then you can't really comment on it Marco.
I spent ages investigating room acoustics. I could bore you for hours with it but suffice to say that passive treatments cannot resolve all issues. It is also prehistoric dogma to assume that all electronic room correction devices are in some way flawed or corrupt the signal path.
The original and early devices were but things have moved on. Just like technology eventually finds the solution to most things that applies to acoustics as well.
Believe me this is not something I bought after reading a review on the internet. I spent months and months looking into passive acoustic devices before I realised they would not work for my issues.
http://www.stereotimes.com/amp100311.shtml
http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=101
April/May 2008
RP-1
The Abolute Sound - CES ´08: The Best New Gear
Declared: Most significant new product
Image
January 2008
RP-1
Horerlebnis, Germany
“Never before has a single component even been close to giving such a substantial improvement to the sound of my audio system as the RP-1.”
June 2007
RP-1
STEREO IMAGE, France
Overall conclusion:
“Revolutionary in the way it works, the Lyngdorf RP-1 is the best of today’s acoustical room correction. This processor makes it possible to reach a very high quality level of sound reproduction in less than favourable acoustical environments. It is capable of completely changing an audio system, the RP-1 is an magnificent product which you can only with great difficulty send back after testing. If you try it you buy it!”
Download translated excerpts from the article:
January 2008
DPA-1
HIGHfidelity, Denmark
"Those details, typically in the low-frequency range, which would otherwise be masked by room resonances, suddenly become highly detailed and well defined, and you simply hear what is happening. The latter is probably the most accurate description - everything is made available and presented in a previously unheard way. This fact makes RoomPerfect - and room correction in general - worth every penny.
As a neutral provider of music, with and without RoomPerfect, DPA-1 ranks among the world's best. I do not recall having heard any control amplifier with so little sound of its own..."
And the verdict is an unconditional recommendation:
"I will not hesitate to recommend that you give the Lyngdorf DPA-1 an exhaustive audition. Without RoomPerfect, Lyngdorf has created an instrument, which is an excellent, neutral music provider, and without doubt ranks among the absolutely best control amps in the world - regardless of price. With RoomPerfect, you acquire the potential for a further improvement - provided that your listening room needs correction. However, my point is that most people will experience a considerable improvement, and when the system furthermore is so easy to operate as the DPA-1, an optimum boost of the attainable reproduction quality is practically guaranteed."
eptember 2007
System test: DPA-1 / SDA-2175 / CD-1
STEROPLAY, Germany
STEREOPLAY of Germany had an almost complete Lyngdorf system: DPA-1, SDA-2175 and CD-1 for review, issued in October 2007. In the test team's own words the result was nothing less than “sensational”.
“Now the DPA-1 was sent into action….With RoomPerfect calibration it was like the sun went op (compared to not using RoomPerfect). It was as if the whole sound stage had settled perfectly: It turned fabulously three-dimensional, the subwoofers suddenly integrated seamlessly into the whole, and the combined system had a dynamic capability and effortlessness that was really convincing and at times even astonishing.”
“DPA-1 is a high-end processor with pre-amplifier features and can also operate as a two-way active crossover. The DPA-1 has the easy-to-use RoomPerfect, which in rooms with acoustical problems shows sensational results. An unbelievably good solution!”
August 2011
TDAI 2200, SDA-2175, DP-1, BW-1
HiFi.nl
"I’ve said many times that, as an audio journalist, you have to be careful using superlatives and exaggerated adjectives, but the musical quality of this particular set can only be described as belonging to an exceptional and indeed singular class. You could say it’s spectacular, or even overwhelming, but in the end it feels utterly natural. The deep bass of the organ music carries the tunes on a soft yet firm cloud, while the two choirs in this particular track ar
August 2007
TDAI 2200
The Absolute Sound, USA
Golden Ear Award
“It is easy to get used to a system and forget the extent to which the room around it is affecting negatively what (one hopes) is the really good speaker system one bought. The RoomPerfect sets out, not to change your speakers utterly into some pre-existing concept of correct sound, but rather to gently guide your speaker/room combination into the sound you would hear if the room wasn’t deforming the basic sound of your speakers.”
August 2007
TDAI 2200
Enjoy the Music.com
"On my own recording of the Boulder Philharmonic performing Beethoven's 9th symphony, each soloist occupied a more precise spot on the stage. The overall soundstage exhibited noticeably less smearing of the sonic image. On all the commercial pop, rock, and folk CDs in my library lead vocalists were better centered and background vocalists were more distinct entities with RoomPerfect™ engaged. RoomPerfect's improvement to time-alignment and reduction of early reflections certainly has positive affects on any music that passes through the TDAI 2200."
The RP1 is also used in these ultra high end systems
http://www.steinwaylyngdorf.com/?gclid=CNfzxo6kuq8CFQ1lfAodPggAjA
And is licensed by McIntosh (USA) in their MEN device
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Products/pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=Accessories&ProductId=MEN220
http://www.audioaficionado.org/mcintosh-audio/5072-mcintosh-men220-review.html
I think you might be getting an idea of how passionate I am about this device.
The old advice about sticking a rug on the floor or putting up some thick curtains is like putting a band aid on mate. This is like robotic laser surgery in comparison:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
Lol - I'd rather just have a good room, acoustically, in the first place, with little need for any 'correction' (as indeed I have)... 'Source first', and all that! ;)
But I take your point, so enjoy :)
So what are you doing about the Nagaoka - we're not still going to be umming and aahing about this in 3 months time, are we? :D
Marco.
Lol - I'd rather just have a good room, acoustically, in the first place, with little need for any 'correction' treatment (as indeed I have)... 'Source first', and all that! ;)
But I take your point, so enjoy :)
So what are you doing about the Nagaoka - we're not still going to be umming and aahing about this in 3 months time, are we? :D
Marco.
That doesn't make any sense Marco:)
I take it your room wasn't designed by an acoustics engineer and built from scratch;)
Or that when you and your good wife were looking at houses to buy you lugged your sound system with you to check out the acoustics and chose the house that performed the best?;)
If not then you have a room probably no different to anybody else including me. So your room is not good acoustically, you just don't realise how bad it is because you have never heard what a high level room correction device can do for it.
It is a paradigm shift. Trust me:cool::cool::cool:
As for the Nagaoka....still thinking. I might take your other advice in terms of upgrading the tonearm so I have other cart options.
Thanks as always for your advice.:)
I've auditioned the Lyngdorf amps with 'room perfect' room correction. I found the room correction to work well at disguising the effects of poor speaker positioning. However, I felt the sound was better when the speakers were moved to a more optimal position and the room correction was turned off. Irrespective, I found the sound was well projected but very dry and precise. These characteristics are shared, in my opinion, by the Monitor Audio speakers. Presumably to ensure that the mid bass keeps up with the pace of the ribbon tweeter, MA seem to have voiced the speaker very much toward the quick but lean end of the spectrum (at least, that is what I have thought every time I have heard them).
___________
Frankly David, I would take your support of active room correction more seriously if the point of this thread wasn't about you complaining of tonal issues. I've yet to hear an active room correction system that I would consider transparent and would rather have passive room correction (as I do) and careful speaker positioning.
I've auditioned the Lyngdorf amps with 'room perfect' room correction. I found the room correction to work well at disguising the effects of poor speaker positioning. However, I felt the sound was better when the speakers were moved to a more optimal position and the room correction was turned off. Irrespective, I found the sound was well projected but very dry and precise. These characteristics are shared, in my opinion, by the Monitor Audio speakers. Presumably to ensure that the mid bass keeps up with the pace of the ribbon tweeter, MA seem to have voiced the speaker very much toward the quick but lean end of the spectrum (at least, that is what I have thought every time I have heard them).
___________
Frankly David, I would take your support of active room correction more seriously if the point of this thread wasn't about you complaining of tonal issues. I've yet to hear an active room correction system that I would consider transparent and would rather have passive room correction (as I do) and careful speaker positioning.
But I had no 'tonal issues' with my digital front end, it sounds sublime. The tonal issues are with my new deck which you'll appreciate is very 'entry level' at present. The RP1 is not going to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear, it does not change the underlying sonic signature of the hardware. It takes away the deleterious effect of room interaction.
The digital front end suddenly sounds a little light on bass just now but that is new and almost certainly down to speaker placement being changed from the original calibration points.
I'm happy to bring my RP1 to any bake off in the London area:) The beers are on me if it doesn't improve the sound.
Btw, the point of the RP1 is not to compensate for poor speaker placement.
Hi David,
We'll just have to agree to disagree about active room correction. I'm afraid that it goes against my purist principles of having the least amount of 'gubbins', as possible, in the signal path. I believe in the K.I.S.S principle, with audio. Just call me old-fashioned! :D
My personal experience of active room correction treatment has not been positive, and if the Lyngdorf sounds anything like Mark describes (and I trust his ears), it's the polar opposite of the type of sound I would like. But it's not what I like that matters here.
I live in a 19th centrury lodge, which has massively thick walls, and room shapes with lots of angles, with oak beams everywhere, breaking up standing waves. The natural acoustics are excellent. No room is perfect, however, including the dedicated one I have for my hi-fi system, but I'm certainly in no hurry to have it actively treated by any electronic device.
In all seriousness, if I were to move house again, my number one priority would be for it to have the best sounding room possible (naturally) to put my system in (it would again be an old and traditional property, as I detest modern houses), and my wife would happily go along with that plan! :cool:
Marco.
Active room correction won't be entering my house any time soon. I own enough boxes already and besides, I like what I'm hearing right now, an acoustic situation that has evolved over three years through much fine tuning of equipment, room layout and placement. Different strategy, same result ;)
IMHO you don't need to spend a fortune to get a decent vinyl front end, you have one already. If you choose to upgrade your SL sometime in the future then there are several routes you can take, and they don't all cost megabucks... :D
I prefer passive room correction, which works very well for me (my room is quite dead now). I do NOT want my precious analogue signal converted to digital and then back again merely to perform room correction. Whatever you might gain in correction you'll lose in transparency.
I do NOT want my precious analogue signal converted to digital and then back again merely to perform room correction. Whatever you might gain in correction you'll lose in transparency.
Totally agree! :)
Marco.
You guys are stuck in the dark ages:lol:
Lol - oddly, I've always loved darkness... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Audioman
16-04-2012, 22:38
Have to agree with Marco and the rest. Converting to digital and back is going to cause more tonal problems than it solves. It's additional sound processing and lots of unecessary components in the signal path. Also unecessary expense that could have been targeted at better quality components in the first place.
David you seem to be moving speakers around more than us Stoneage men who rely on common sense and their ears. BTW did your extensive research consist of reading all the great reviews quoted and the sales pitch rather than listening?
Beechwoods
16-04-2012, 22:41
:sofa:
The Grand Wazoo
17-04-2012, 00:04
You guys are stuck in the dark ages:lol:
To quote a certain Mothers of Invention recording:
- Don't you believe in progress?
- Take that progress & stick it under a rock!
Have to agree with Marco and the rest. Converting to digital and back is going to cause more tonal problems than it solves. It's additional sound processing and lots of unecessary components in the signal path. Also unecessary expense that could have been targeted at better quality components in the first place.
David you seem to be moving speakers around more than us Stoneage men who rely on common sense and their ears. BTW did your extensive research consist of reading all the great reviews quoted and the sales pitch rather than listening?
:)
David, have you actually heard the device? You accuse me of buying based on 'great reviews' and 'sales pitch' (which I didn't) yet your reaction to it is the irrational one.
It's a sort of knee jerk 'anything digital is the devils work' or 'any additional layer of processing kills transparency' or 'anything that lengthens the signal path is always bad'
You all keep talking about tonal problems but I DIDN'T HAVE ANY until I bought the deck, and now they are there because the deck needs tweaking.
You are also not actually reading my posts as you all (not just you David) shake your heads. I DID'NT move my speakers because of tonal problems, I had to move the speakers to physically move kit around to accommodate the deck, phono, leads etc.
You then say it's better to spend money on better quality components in the first place. I'm afraid to say this suggest you don't understand room acoustics, unless you were talking about buying a fully designed and implemented acoustically perfect room????:scratch:
The bottom line is this though, and this applies to all you guys. I completely respect your opinions and your choice, however there is one fundamental reason why what you say can't be take that seriously. With the exception of one person (who I suspect didn't hear it set up properly) not one of you HAS ACTUALLY HEARD THIS DEVICE.
You guys I'm sure agree that we should all trust our own ears and not what others say or write (especially those with vested commercial interests)
If you had heard this particular device and then told me it's rubbish I would never argue with you. How could I?
I understand that you guys feel in principle it is better to keep the signal path as short as possible and limit processing. I couldn't agree more, but you have to hear the final result.
If this was anything else ie a cart, arm, deck even a stupid piece of cable and I told you in no uncertain terms that I didn't like it and it was rubbish HAVING NEVER HEARD it you'd think I was mad.
Yet this is exactly what all you guys are doing.
As I said I respect the opinions of all of you guys. But I would take that opinion it a lot more seriously on this particular issue if you formed the opinion AFTER you heard the device.
I'm getting the feeling that you guys don't have an open mind on the issue and put up a brick wall the moment I mentioned room correction. You are telling me I have tonal problems in my system (which I don't have) having never heard my system!
I'm also worried now that if I seek any advice on my vinyl set up in the future everybody will just say any problems are the fault of the RP1:(
As I said I'm happy to bring the RP1 to any meet/bake off to allow members to have a listen:):)
All the best
Mike_New
17-04-2012, 07:39
I have not contributed to this thread for fear of appearing to be pushing my own agenda. However having continually been made aware of INDUS”S quest for more bass, I perhaps think that it could be said that he is doing all the correct things in the wrong order.
Surely, as has been stated on this forum so many times by so many people who have actually done it; that the first approach to improving the sonics, in particular the bass response is to change the power supply and upgrade the bearing. I do not think that playing about with cartridges and or arms is going to do very much for anyone unless those improvements have a solid “system” to be mated with. Especially if good bass is the required agenda.
Turntable first, then arm, then cartridge - every time.
___________________
You guys are stuck in the dark ages:lol:
Unfortunately, there is a bit of a credibility gap issue with your comment.
(enjoy your CD player - whilst you still can :))
You guys are stuck in the dark ages:lol:
I find carrots help.
David,
As far as I'm concerned, the bottom line is if you think that your room correction device is the dog's bollocks, and very effective in your room to your ears, then I cannot argue with you, but then arguing with you is not the purpose of this exercise; I'm merely expressing an opinion, based on my own individual preferences, not in this case in terms of hearing certain individual components (no, I've not heard your Lyngdorf), but on actual system building methodolgies and established preferences.
What do I mean by that?
Ok, these days, I'd no sooner use an active room correction device than I would tall and slim floor-standing speakers, with multiple drive units, like your MAs, because they're simply not 'my thing', regardless of how good they sound in your room (I prefer huge, wide-baffle speakers with 15" dual-concentric drive units, such as my Tannoy Lockwoods), and so would likely only ever use speakers of that type, or similar, because they are 'my thing'.
Similarly, I'd no sooner use an active room correction device, than I'd use almost ANY solid-state amp, simply because I love valves, or not use a high quality direct-drive turntable, or not use high-quality vintage CD players and vintage pick-up cartridges, because of the type of sound that they produce - I could go on.
The point I'm making is that I don't necessarily have to hear certain individual components to intrinsically *know* that they won't be 'my thing' and/or fit in with my preferred system building methodology and established preferencies, even though I may like what they do in the owner's listening environment or somewhere else, and your Lyngdorf device comes into that category.
Do you see where I'm coming from? :)
Like I said, don't get me wrong, I could come down to your place, listen to your system and agree that, in that context, the Lyngdorf is an unquestionable asset, but that doesn't mean that if I brought all my gear down and substituted your kit with mine, that I wouldn't still prefer the sound it produces in YOUR ROOM (even with its acoustic issues), and with the Lyngdorf completely out of the equation! ;)
I know we could never do that, but do you see the point I'm making? It's simply a question of choosing one's priorities and/or compromises - and those will always exist, simply because perfection doesn't.
A truly sonically transparent electronic audio device has yet to be invented, and so your Lyngdorf has a sonic signature, and imparts it onto music reproduced by your system, the same as any other. Therefore, the choice to be made is whether one prefers the sound of your system with the room 'corrected', and WITH the Lyndorf's sonic signature imparted onto the music, or WITHOUT that signature, but WITH the acoustic deficiencies of the room colouring the music instead. It's as simple as that - and you cannot be sure which set of compromises people would prefer.
You've decided that the effect of active room correction is right for you, based on what you've heard, but that decision is only valid in the context of YOUR system, room and ears. The results may be very different indeed if we took the device out of your system and put it into mine (especially, as I suspect that we have rather different sonic priorities, and our rooms are VERY different), but moreover because NOTHING in audio, including your Lyngdorf device, is a universal panacea!
Marco.
Audioman
17-04-2012, 10:21
David. My point is did you base it on listening rather than reviews as you gave the impression that you had it because its the latest technology. If you listened to it first in your room and your system that's fine. The problem for me is similar results can be achieved by correct system matching and tweaking room acoustics. If you are right everyone would be using the device and Hi-fi reviewers would regard it as an essential reviewing tool.
Personaly I don't particularly like digital sound and tolerate CD as a necessity to access a wider range of music. I haven't heard your device but frankly it's the wrong approach for me as I would rather concentrate limited resources on the actual kit that makes the music and expanding my record collection.
There was some enthusiasm and a good few reviews for Tact/Lygndorf digital amplifiers and processors (+ other digital amps) a few years back but enthusiasm waned as longer term assessment revealed their negative qualities in terms of sound reproduction.
I hope your happy but something isn''t right as the basic SL1200 doesn't lack bass as plenty here who own one attest. In spite of the brightly lit and dry nature of MA I would expect your models to reproduce fairly deep extended bass on all sources. You also say you don't want to spend too much on vinyl replay initialy so why buy a phono stage that alone costs more than most TT's ? Frankly I am rather puzzled by your whole approach to system building which I don't think is leading to satisfactory results. The digital processor is in my opinion acting as a band aid to other anomalies and you are not addressing the fundamentals.
Paul.
To be fair, Paul, David has said that, with his Stanton cartridge in the equation, the bass returns to an acceptable level, but the sound then lacks refinement. This is consistent with my experience of the Stanton (and also of the Audio Techinca, in terms of the opposite effect).
That, therefore, suggests to me that he simply doesn't get on with the Audio Technica, and it is this issue which is at the root of his problems. I suspect, therefore, that a cartridge change (such as I've recommended), or better still, an arm and cartridge change (as I've recommended) will go a long way to sorting things out for him :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
17-04-2012, 10:34
Why not use the room correction to "uncorrect" the sound a little bit? :eyebrows:
Audioman
17-04-2012, 10:52
To be fair, Paul, David has said that, with his Stanton cartridge in the equation, the bass returns to an acceptable level, but the sound then lacks refinement.
That still suggests to me that he just doesn't get on with the Audio Technica, and it is this issue which is at the root of his problems. I suspect, therefore, that a cartridge change (such as I've recommended), or better still, an arm and cartridge change (as I've recommended) will go a long way to sorting things out :)
Marco.
OK, but even with an AT bass would be adequate for me in that system. Dry and extended rather than a fuller more prominent upper bass - which it appears is what David is after. By all means upgrade the arm but after he is sure he prefers the Technics sound and investigates the alternative approaches before committing more money.
I also think he should take the processor out of the equation, set up to optimise sound by ear. By this I mean TT set up, speaker positioning and equipment isolation. When he is satisfied then reintroduce the processor for final acoustic tweaking. Of course David may be doing this but my guess this is the intended function of the Lygndorf. This approach will isolate sound balance due to TT set up from changes introduced by digital processing. My guess is this type of product was developed around digital sources and home cinema systems. Not aimed at us analogue junkies.
Paul.
I also think he should take the processor out of the equation, set up to optimise sound by ear. By this I mean TT set up, speaker positioning and equipment isolation.
That is a good point you make there Paul. I know very little about active room correction but it may be the case that there is an inherent problem in turntable siteing that the Lyngdorf is failing to deal with. David, try listening to the turntable without the Lyngdorf in the system to check whether the problem manifests without it. If it does, try re-siteing it. If there is an improvement in bass then re-install the Lyngdorf... ;)
OK, but even with an AT bass would be adequalte for me in that system. Dry and extended rather than a fuller more prominent upper bass - which it appears is what David is after. By all means upgrade the arm but after he is sure he prefers the Technics sound and investigates the alternative approaches before committing more money.
Mmm... Our views of the Audio Technica are a little different. I wouldn't describe its bass as "dry and extended", but rather as 'dry and lacking in proper extension', and therefore, by definition, 'anaemic'. In my experience, ALL Audio Technica cartridges, regardless of price, possess that signature to a more or less degree: it is simply their 'house signature' - and all makes of cartridges have one.
People who choose AT cartridges will therefore generally be those who value high-frequency detail retrieval and 'treble sparkle', more than tone and timbre, and the underpinning of music with palpable low-frequency extension (in other words, 'gravitas'), which makes it sound 'real'. The latter is what, for example, Denon cartridges excel in, at the expense (a little) of the former; in effect allowing us to choose our priorities/compromises.
I remember comparing Martin T's (then) AT-33PTG, to my (then) Denon DL-103SA, in the same turntable and system, and what I've described above was heard as plain as the nose on your face - and rather enlightening, too! ;) I've also heard a similar thing with an OC-9.
Therefore, given David's taste in music (and we must not lose sight of this important consideration), and his desire for better bass and more overall refinement, I'm convinced that his turntable (and system) would be best served by a Nagaoka or Denon cartridge (a DL-103, but on a Jelco arm, instead of the Technics one).
By all means upgrade the arm but after he is sure he prefers the Technics sound and investigates the alternative approaches before committing more money.
The problem is, I don't believe (and considerable experience confirms this) that simply changing the cartridge will be enough for him to properly assess "the Technics sound", certainly in terms of accurately ascertaining his 1210's potential to become a high-end turntable, and also most importantly taking into consideration the revealing nature of David's system, which will continue to show up the T/Ts deficiencies, in its relative stock form, until he effectively addresses them.
Therefore, more must be done than a simple cartridge change before he can come to any meaningful conclusion on "the Technics sound".
I would suggest that the minimum level of modification required for the above to be realised is for David's SL-1210 to be fitted with a new mat, feet, external PSU, arm and cartridge. Only then will he be able to judge in any meaningful way what the Technics is capable of.
It's up to David if he wants to go that far. However, I feel sure of two things, if he does:
1) He'll very likely love it, and all will be well.
2) If he doesn't, he'll be able to sell his T/T to another Techy fan, and proceed down an alternative T/T route, having satisfied his curiosity regarding the Technics, and not be too much out of pocket! :)
Marco.
The MA Platimum speakers are pretty power hungry - MA recommend a minimum of 100 watts - just thinking that although CD with it's high output level might sound fine the AT with a low output compared to CD or the Stanton 500 may be requiring the amplifier to give more than it can into the speakers in order to get satisfactory bass reproduction. In other words more power is required for vinyl replay.
As I say, just a thought...
Audioman
17-04-2012, 12:03
Mmm... Our views of the Audio Technica are a little different. I wouldn't describe its bass as "dry and extended", but rather 'dry and lacking in proper extension', and therefore, by definition, 'anaemic'. In my experience, ALL Audio Technica cartridges, regardless of price, possess that signature to a more or less degree: it is simply their 'house signature' - and all makes of cartridges have one.
While not everybody's cup of tea I think better results are obtainable depending on arm. AT's probably better suit Rega and SME arms.
Therefore, given David's taste in music (and we must not lose sight of this very important consideration), and his desire for better bass (and more overall refinement), I'm convinced that his turntable (and system) would be best served by a Nagaoka or Denon cartridge.
I'm not disagreeing with this. He obviously wants big meaty bass.
The problem is, I don't believe (and considerable experience confirms this) that simply changing the cartridge will be enough for him to properly assess "the Technics sound", certainly in terms of accurately ascertaining his 1210's potential to become a truly high-end turntable, and also most importantly taking into consideration the revealing nature of David's system, which will continue to show up the T/Ts deficiencies, in its relative stock form, until he effectively addresses them.
Therefore, more must be done than a simple cartridge change before he can come to any meaningful conclusion on "the Technics sound".
I would suggest that the minimum level of modification required for the above to be realised is David's SL-1210 to be fitted with a new mat, feet, external PSU, arm and cartridge. Only then will he be able to judge in any meaningful way what the Technics is capable of.
Yes if he goes as far as changing the arm he should go for the other inexpensive mods and a good MC cartridge. I still think before he does anything he should audition a moded Techy and some good quality alternative turntables to get an idea of the possibilities.
Sure, Paul. I've no problem there with anything you've written. The key is in achieving synergy.
I still think before he does anything he should audition a moded Techy and some good quality alternative turntables to get an idea of the possibilities.
Agreed, but will he manage to do that? I'd pop down to London and let him hear my Techy (as I always enjoy hearing other people's systems and music collections), but I'm not sure that's going to tell him much other than if you spend £5k+ on the Techy, you end up with a world-class T/T! ;)
So who, in the London area, with a lightly-modded Techy (at least as far as I've suggested is necessary) is willing to let David listen to it in his system? Come on, chaps, he needs your help :)
Marco.
Canetoad
17-04-2012, 12:15
My Techie has had the mat and feet (Isanoes) replaced, along with a MN bearing. I'm using a Nagaoka MP150 (mounted in Sumiko headshell) on the standard Techie arm. It certainly doesn't lack any in the bass dept in my setup. I find the cartridge to be very dynamic. VTA wasn't a problem with setup either. I did have to add the extra weight to the end of the arm to balance the cartridge though.
I'd say give the Nagaoka MP200 a try. You can always sell it on if you're not satisfied with it's performance without losing much on the deal. I bought my 150 for £70 2nd hand. It was definitely a bargain for me. They're now about £230 new. :eyebrows:
The MA Platimum speakers are pretty power hungry - MA recommend a minimum of 100 watts - just thinking that although CD with it's high output level might sound fine the AT with a low output compared to CD or the Stanton 500 may be requiring the amplifier to give more than it can into the speakers in order to get satisfactory bass reproduction. In other words more power is required for vinyl replay.
That's an interesting one, Martin, and probably valid, in some ways. However, is the output of the Stanton that much more than that of the AT? I'm not sure that David has any issues with a lack of gain.
Bernie, I'm glad that you're pleased with the MP150. The Nagaoka MMs deserve much more widespread recognition and publicity, to perhaps help wean people off of the more 'obvious' (and, IMO, boring) MM choices of ATs, Ortofons and Goldrings!
Marco.
That's an interesting one, Martin, and probably in some ways, valid. However, is the output of the Stanton that much more than that of the AT? I'm not sure that David has any issues with a lack of gain.
Marco.
The Stanton 500 has very high output compared to most other cartridges (and the more expensive Stantons) I am at work so cannot look up the exact specs right now. Just my experience but vinyl bass seems to be more demanding of amplifier power than CD bass. If that makes any sense on an electrical/engineering level I don't know.
Stratmangler
17-04-2012, 12:44
The Stanton 500 has very high output compared to most other cartridges (and the more expensive Stantons) I am at work so cannot look up the exact specs right now. Just my experience but vinyl bass seems to be more demanding of amplifier power than CD bass. If that makes any sense on an electrical/engineering level I don't know.
It's quoted at 4.6mV at maximum output.
Which isn't as high as a Goldring 1042.
Can't say as I've noticed any power demand differences between vinyl and digital sources though, unless you're talking about a need to turn it up a bit more with vinyl.
That's got everything to do with gain, but not necessarily amplifier power.
No not talking gain I am aware that that is a different thing altogether.
Canetoad
17-04-2012, 12:59
Bernie, I'm glad that you're pleased with the MP150. The Nagaoka MMs deserve much more widespread recognition and publicity, to perhaps help wean people off of the more 'obvious' (and, IMO, boring) MM choices of ATs, Ortofons and Goldrings!
I won't be getting rid of it any time soon Marco. :)
I'd like to try it on my PL-71 as well.
My Techie has had the mat and feet (Isanoes) replaced, along with a MN bearing. I'm using a Nagaoka MP150 (mounted in Sumiko headshell) on the standard Techie arm. It certainly doesn't lack any in the bass dept in my setup. I find the cartridge to be very dynamic. VTA wasn't a problem with setup either. I did have to add the extra weight to the end of the arm to balance the cartridge though.
I'd say give the Nagaoka MP200 a try. You can always sell it on if you're not satisfied with it's performance without losing much on the deal. I bought my 150 for £70 2nd hand. It was definitely a bargain for me. They're now about £230 new. :eyebrows:
I don't understand why I have a problem with vta then:scratch:
Is there any chance you might post a pic of your cart in situ?
Thanks
Sorry I haven't replied guys.
I've taken all your comments on board and we'll agree to differ on room correction.
So I've reset everything up. I've discovered that whilst I've been moving the speakers to gain access to the back of the cabinets to change wires, find space for the Whest etc they have moved massively from where they were.
Speaker positioning is important for everybody and as you know can make a massive difference to the sound. It is even more important if you are employing room correction due to everything being calibrated from those set points.
Anyway, when I've fired everything up again there is definitely no lack of bass and it does not sound anaemic in anyway. The bass slam is definitely there. The AT is definitely capable of producing bass, it was not the culprit
From all this I can only assume that the whole thing is down to speaker positioning. I did go around and recheck all the connections, and if you saw the rats nest behind my cabinet you'd know this is quite a job. So there may have been something there that was fixed as well.
I haven't had time to go back and compare the AT to the Stanton now that everything has been recalibrated.
So the deck is sounding better but obviously still not very refined. But I think I've heard a bit more of a hint of what the deck may be capable of. I think I will proceed with the mods as soon as funds allow
I've taken up quite a lot of everybody's time and am very grateful, I'll stop hassling all of you with my stupid questions/problems now. Well until I need to choose a new arm, psu, bearing etc;)
And just to prove that when analogue and digital meet the Universe does not implode, here is a pic;)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-17180353.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-17180406.jpg
So I've reset everything up. I've discovered that whilst I've been moving the speakers to gain access to the back of the cabinets to change wires, find space for the Whest etc they have moved massively from where they were.
Well, that does rather explain a lot, ya daftee! :doh: :eyebrows:
At least you've sorted it now!
I haven't had time to go back and compare the AT to the Stanton now that everything has been recalibrated.
I'd be interested in your thoughts on that, when you get a chance. The difference that you could hear between the two cartridges before, when your speakers were sub-optimally positioned, should now be magnified tenfold, now that your speakers are in the right place! ;)
Nice set-up, by the way! :cool:
Marco.
P.S You must get that hideous writing removed from your T/T, ASAP, as otherwise I'll imagine that you drive a blinged-up Ford Fiesta, with blacked out-windows, playing 'Gangsta Rap', and have a penchant for wearing 'hoodies' and 'joggers' and slapping 'yo bitch'! :D
Reid Malenfant
17-04-2012, 17:58
What's that dead jellyfish doing stuck to the front panel of the Lyngdorf? :scratch:
:rfl:
You must get that hideous writing removed from your T/T, ASAP
Indeed :spew:
RobbieGong
17-04-2012, 18:08
Hi David, Your questions are not stupid and as you can see the guys here only want to try and help, sometimes that means some interogation which is just our way of getting to the bottom of any issue the Op may have. Anyway, I would suggest as someone else has that you take time now getting used to your Techie before chucking loads of money at it. They are a lovely, solid and very user friendly deck which actually sound pretty good straight from the box. I enjoyed mine form stock then went on the upgrade path slowly. ie: better cart(s) until I was really happy with the one I have now. KAB, fluid damper, then Mike New bearing and Timesep external psu. Not shed loads of money and she sounds really good indeed. I dont think you necessarily need to change the arm, then again it depends on what type of cart or carts you are going to settle with. If it's a cart or carts that work best with a heavy arm (genrally lot of mc's) then maybe look at an arm change otherwise if like me you are happy with an exceptional mm (2M Black, not cheap but damn good) that is happy with the stock arm then leave well alone. I've always said that the on the fly vta is a gem. Either way enjoy and take your time getting to know her, You will upgrade, just dont let it take you over so that you stop enjoying the music - all the best :)
Since you live in London, Robert, why not pop round to David's and let him hear your Techy? I'm sure that you'd both find the exercise rather beneficial! :)
Marco.
Hey Mark, looking at the piccies of David's cabinets he would seem to have a 'double oven' to go with your 'fridge'. Before long the two of you will have a whole kitchen between you... :lol: My apologies David, its an in joke and all will be explained in time... ;)
Reid Malenfant
17-04-2012, 18:18
Hey Mark, looking at the piccies of David's cabinets he would seem to have a 'double oven' to go with your 'fridge'. Before long the two of you will have a whole kitchen between you... :lol: My apologies David, its an in joke and all will be explained in time... ;)
:lol: Yep, just spotted what you were refering to :eyebrows:
RobbieGong
17-04-2012, 18:18
Since you live in London, Robert, why not pop round to David's and let him hear your Techy? I'm sure that you'd both find the exercise rather beneficial! :)
Marco.
Good point Marco, I'll pm David when I have a suitable few hours free on a Saturday treat him to a combination of his tunes and mine, then let David report back. I think it would be good for those guys at the early stages of the upgrade path to hear from a 'witness' just how good a Techy can sound even at the mid point of the upgrade path in terms of spend. :) BTW, just realised I'd need to be careful in transit as any spillage from the fluid damper all over my baby would be a complete 'mare lol (actually NOT lol - lol !!) but yeah, we'll get it on David.
Hey Mark, looking at the piccies of David's cabinets he would seem to have a 'double oven' to go with your 'fridge'. Before long the two of you will have a whole kitchen between you... My apologies David, its an in joke and all will be explained in time...
:lolsign:
Aye, a double oven and a spare panty-liner stuck to his Lyngdorf... Handy, I guess, if you get a little too 'over-excited' listening to Tiesto! :lol: ;)
Marco
Don't diss the toons bruv, I liek a bit of Trance myself from time to time, or mebe its my state of mind after too many sherberts??? :D
Audioman
17-04-2012, 19:57
I'd be interested in your thoughts on that, when you get a chance. The difference that you could hear between the two cartridges before, when your speakers were sub-optimally positioned, should now be magnified tenfold, now that your speakers are in the right place! ;)
Well that at least poves AT's do bass. Having both a Dynavector and AT my view it is the midrange that is more the weak point of the AT. The top end is generaly not a problem with correct loading and a good few hours bedding in.
Thanks.
Yes Rob it would be good to try and meet up, and I take your point about spending some time getting to know the deck as it is as present.
Marco, I will definitely back to back test the Stanton tomorrow.
Deck has been 'gentrified' as requested. However, after removing the decals I feel the bass has become lighter again and the soundstage has shrunk. Is that to be expected?;)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/deepsingh_photos/2012-04-17195535.jpg
Btw, what's the oven/fridge joke?
Just a quick update.
When I wrote some of the previous posts I was getting myself into a bit of a muddle as I was experimenting with vinyl for the first time.
I've now had time to have a really good listen. Most importantly I've played the exact same tracks on vinyl and CD back to back to do a comparison.
My vinyl set up definitely lacks bass as compared to my CDP. Not just the in your face slam but whole basslines that are barely audible on vinyl but are beautifully reproduced on CD.
This is a real issue and is something I need to address.
The question is whether this is actually something that can be addressed or whether it's just an inherent quality of vinyl and/or the techie
Thanks
Beechwoods
02-05-2012, 21:25
My Techie has better bass than my CDP and DAC! I think the answer lies elsewhere.
Someone local with Techie experience really needs to swing by and help you out!
Get rid of that bloody awful Audio Technica cartridge and fit something with some balls... That's where your inherent problem lies!!
Marco.
My vinyl set up definitely lacks bass as compared to my CDP. Not just the in your face slam but whole basslines that are barely audible on vinyl but are beautifully reproduced on CD.
I'm just not recognising this statement, David. Marco is right about the AT, but even so there should not be the large gap that you are hearing. In no way does the Technics deck lack bass and slam! Something is wrong, somewhere.
Audioman
02-05-2012, 22:44
Get rid of that bloody awful Audio Technica cartridge and fit something with some balls... That's where your inherent problem lies!!
Marco.
The AT has plenty low end balls especialy with a TT that is supposed to have very good bass extension.
Thanks.
The CDP is a Quad CDP2. In other words a decent/good CDP but not really high end. But there is a vast difference between the Tech and the CDP in terms of bass reproduction.
And it is really just the bass that is an issue, nothing else about the sound seems 'broken'. Voices come out well, mids and highs all have authority etc, it just can't seem to reproduce the bass.
And it's not just the boom boom of my dance music that lacks 'slam' but some more subtle underlying bass lines are barely audible when they sound well balanced on CD
It could be the cart, or perhaps the set up of the cart. I never managed to get the cart level using a spirit level. To me it seemed impossible with the Sumiko head without adding a spacer etc.
Anyway, I have a Jelco arm sitting here waiting to be fitted which means I'll then have other options in terms of carts. But it seems some members here feel the cart may not really explain what is going on here!
Thanks for your help
From your description; If the cartridge is tilting forward IE not sat down slightly at the back then you could well end up with light bass.
Try lowering the arm pillar so the cart sits back a little, if you cant alter it add another platter mat to raise the record. Also check the tracking weight and set it to the upper limit of the cartridge. If none of that changes the presentation than do as Marco suggested and change the cartridge.
Any chance of a photo of the arm side on while playing the middle of a record? It may help us to see how far out of level the headshell is.....
David - from all the clues you've given us, I don't think the lack of bass you're getting can be solely attributed to the AT, although that does tilt in that direction sound-wise. I think you have a fundamental alignment error.
The Jelco is likely to give you more adjustment room and I'm sure will sound an awful lot better than the stock arm anyway.
If you could get yourself to Basingstoke I'm sure we could sort it in an afternoon/evening, but I've no idea where in London you are. Otherwise, perhaps one of the other London-based members could help?
David - from all the clues you've given us, I don't think the lack of bass you're getting can be solely attributed to the AT, although that does tilt in that direction sound-wise. I think you have a fundamental alignment error.
Weedy sounding cartridge aside (and from experience, I *know* that this is part of the problem), the above is also what I suspect.
I think it'll take Richard visiting, when fitting the Jelco, to sort it out, or David taking his T/T to someone here, to check it out - or better still, someone going along to his place, with their Techy, in order to get to the bottom of this persistent and annoying problem.
No way, should an SL-1210, in any incarnation, lack bass!
Marco.
Audioman
03-05-2012, 10:03
I agree with Martin that set up is likely to be a major part of the problem. With the AT I would suggest experimenting with cartridge loading on the pre-amp as well. The leaner (not weedy) bass of the AT compared with the cartridges favoured by Marco should be more in line with the reproduction of a mid market CD player. I would not expect bass to be inferior.
Agreed, Paul, what bass there is with AT cartridges is usually tight and tuneful. I don't know the MMs very well, but my spare AT33PTG doesn't lack bass.
Agreed, Paul, what bass there is with AT cartridges is usually tight and tuneful.
Indeed - I couldn't have put it better myself! ;)
Marco.
Thanks to all. Martin, thank you very much for your kind offer. My plan is to let Richard (vantage audio) to have a look when he comes to fit the psu and arm.
Somebody asked for some pics of the arm/cart, I posted some earlier in this thread. Sorry I can't link to it as I'm on my mobile.
It seems that though the at might not be the best at bass what I'm hearing can't be fully explained by that.
Alignment seems to be potentially the culprit. Basically to recap my cart end is still facing down from the horizontal despite the vta being set to zero.
Somebody suggested adding another mat to see if this helps, which seems like a good idea.
I have a flimsy aftermarket mat that came with the deck and I'll pop that on tonight to see if that makes a difference.
Thanks again, it's reassuring to know this issue can be resolved
.....
Somebody asked for some pics of the arm/cart, I posted some earlier in this thread. Sorry I can't link to it as I'm on my mobile.
.....Somebody suggested adding another mat to see if this helps, which seems like a good idea.
I have a flimsy aftermarket mat that came with the deck and I'll pop that on tonight to see if that makes a difference.
Thanks again, it's reassuring to know this issue can be resolved
That was me ;) found your pics, try a thicker mat as it seem the arm is tail high at the moment, also check the tracking weight upping it will alter the SRA and may change the presentation.
Spot on advice, although do bear in mind that adding a second mat will dilute the sonic effect of the Achromat, therefore you're liable to get a negative result from that, as well as a positive one, from levelling the arm.
Marco.
Achromat? Maybe thats part of the problem. David, do you have the original rubber mat? If so I'd try that first! :eyebrows:
Yes, if he wants to go backwards! ;)
Marco.
You don't know that, in combination with the Achromat it may work, he wont know until he tries it. I found the Achromat to be a backward step on the SP10 and Lenco, the standard rubber mats where better on both especially when used with a second mat of either cork or the no slip draw liner material. :ner:
I guess anything's possible, Neal.
However, the SL-1210 is a different beast, in that respect, from an SP10. There are simply too many Techy users here, with Achromats, enjoying fabulous sounding music, for that mat to be a so-called 'hindrance'....
On an SL-1210, the stock rubber mat kills the music - plain and simple. The Achromat is only one effective solution (there are many), but an effective solution, in that application, it most certainly is.
None of that, of course, devalues what you experienced with your SP10 :)
Marco.
Thanks.
Neal the deck never came with the standard rubber mat.
Anyway, popped the extra mat on and that has brought the arm far more closer to horizontal. The result is the bass seems to sound better. Only had time for a quick play, will have more listening time over the weekend.
Thanks again
Good test, David. Now that you know part of the issue is alignment, you can work on it. Rather than use two mats, I'd try a cartridge spacer in the headshell.
On the subject of the Achromat, for me it sounds very much better than the rubber mat. The latter sounds thick and slow, which may give the impression of more bass but it's really just more ill defined.
Thanks.
Neal the deck never came with the standard rubber mat.
Anyway, popped the extra mat on and that has brought the arm far more closer to horizontal. The result is the bass seems to sound better. Only had time for a quick play, will have more listening time over the weekend.
Thanks again
Ah, good. Let us know how you get on and maybe think of a spacer as Martin suggests.
Regarding the Achromat; it just shows how subjective audio is and that synergy is key. I found it offered no improvement over the standard rubber mats + a.n.other one on any of my decks including the PL-71 which perhaps is the closest I have to an SL1200...hey ho! :)
Stratmangler
04-05-2012, 07:35
Thanks.
Neal the deck never came with the standard rubber mat.
Anyway, popped the extra mat on and that has brought the arm far more closer to horizontal. The result is the bass seems to sound better. Only had time for a quick play, will have more listening time over the weekend.
Thanks again
Pleased to find that you've finally found a way of following the advice you were given a few weeks ago - I thought your arm was running tail up from the photos you posted weeks ago.
I may be wrong, but didn't someone suggest that you try a cartridge spacer at the time?
I can't be bothered backtracking through the thread to find out.
Anyway, you now know how important VTA can be to arm/cartridge setup, which is what matters.
On the subject of the Achromat, for me it sounds very much better than the rubber mat. The latter sounds thick and slow, which may give the impression of more bass but it's really just more ill defined.
That's *exactly* what I always hear when I try it, and we're certainly not alone in hearing the effect...
If you like a ponderous, 'heavy' and bloated sound - keep the stock rubber mat on a Techy!
Regarding the Achromat; it just shows how subjective audio is and that synergy is key.
Absolutely, Neal! :)
Now all David has to do is use a spacer instead, between the top of the cartridge and headshell, to do the job of the spare mat - something like this (although not as high mass):
http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/6081/stabiliser.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/803/stabiliser.jpg/)
...and he'll get the best of both worlds!
Marco.
Borrow another cartridge and then at least it might help you make your mind up one way or the other.
Thanks.
Rather than start messing around with spacers I'll wait until my new Jelco arm is fitted and then see where I am.
Thanks again
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/7519/mp200g.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/mp200g.jpg/)
Marco.
Marco, I wonder if you can answer me this....what is the lifetime of a cart such as this?
Diamond stylii are often quoted with 2-3000 hours life. It partly depends on the shape. See here for more info:
http://www.audioinvest.no/tt_vinyl/ttv_styl.htm
RobbieGong
19-05-2012, 10:03
I too have to say like Neal that i didn't find the Achromat an improvement over the stock mat (I have 3.7mm Techy mat). There wasn't a big difference but I definately found the stock mat better in my system. I did read loads about the Achromat before purchasing and found that many liked it but others, like Neal and I prefered the stock mat or another mat over the Achro. I certainly dont experience bloating in the bass and most definately no ponderous delivery of music or the stock mat would have been literally binned if that was the case. The Achromat wasn't awful it just wasn't better for me. I have a very good ear that is sensitive to all things music to the point where if something is even the lightest bit wrong in my system I will not rest til it is sorted (ask my kids and wife who sometimes cannot tell what I'm going on about until I fix it and then they always agree that the music just sounds more right and better) I've been obsessed about music since childhood and recorded one album and four singles in the British reggae charts in the late 80's early nineties) I decided to move on from the label we were signed to simply because i did not like the stiffness of the drum machine programming favoured by the label and wanted to use more live drums, live horns etc - Organic and natural. Anyway... Back to the Achro - When I sold it on the 'bay and I kid you not, the guy who bought it raised a complaint because the difference he decerned was so small he accused me of selling him a counterfeit :steam: - Caused me a lot of frustration and annoyance but such is the nature of these things. :rolleyes:
To work properly, the Achromat must be bonded to the platter surface, otherwise you won't hear what it can do. Whether you use the provided double-sided sticky tape or do as I do and use a thin layer of petroleum jelly, it's the sandwich of Achro and platter that creates the magic.
RobbieGong
19-05-2012, 10:27
Hi Martin, you could well be right. I just didn't want to go down that road of sticking down or smoothing vaseline on. I also really dont like the stock platter to be honest which I have, due to that horrible ringing when you tap the thing so mine will go at some point, probably for the Mike New Composite platter whenever i can get my hands on £600ish, heaven knows when :(. One of the 'reviewers' of Mike's Composite platter commented that he did try a number of mats and at that point the stock Techy mat was best. I would never say I wont try the Achro again or that it is rubbish cause I aint that ignorant but it wouldn't be on the stock platter. :)
I guess I can only give my experience which is that the Achromat was best of the ones I tried (stock, Herbies, Rega felt, Blue Horizon, no mat) with both the Mike New metal platter and my current Funk platter.
Glad I'm not the only one! Surely vaseline is going a bit too far! :lol: I used some double sided sticky tape...
Stratmangler
19-05-2012, 17:09
I also really dont like the stock platter to be honest which I have, due to that horrible ringing when you tap the thing
Remove the magnet boss, stuff Blutack into the area underneath, replace magnet boss, tap platter, ringing almost non existant.
Simples :)
chris@panteg
19-05-2012, 20:09
Remove the magnet boss, stuff Blutack into the area underneath, replace magnet boss, tap platter, ringing almost non existant.
Simples :)
Or some bubble wrap , bit heath Robinson lol .
My VA bonded platter is absolutely fine with no mat required and it sounds excellent .
RobbieGong
19-05-2012, 20:32
Remove the magnet boss, stuff Blutack into the area underneath, replace magnet boss, tap platter, ringing almost non existant.
Simples :)
Loads of us tried this, some liked it some didn't. It was agreed that too much blue tac ie: in all the holes in and around the magnet over cooked the pudding. Some liked the effect in some of the holes ie: a bit less application of blue tac. I tried it in some of the holes and all the holes, prefered the sound without any blue tac. I think blue tac will work for some but as Marco would put it, untimately it's a sticking plaster. If you can, funds permitting of course, go with a Funk or one of Mike New's platters. I've only heard good things about any of these over the stock platter and it's where I'll definately be going in due course :)
I guess I can only give my experience which is that the Achromat was best of the ones I tried (stock, Herbies, Rega felt, Blue Horizon, no mat) with both the Mike New metal platter and my current Funk platter.
Martin, why did you change from the MN platter to FF platter?
Thanks
Martin, why did you change from the MN platter to FF platter?
I evaluated it and it sounded better.
RobbieGong
19-05-2012, 22:49
Please note David that Martin is talking about the Mike New solid alluminium platter I believe which is said to be very good. I've had feedback form someone who has Mikes new Composite Platter which I guess is closer to the FF platter as in made of a type of plastic rather than metal. His feedback rated it very highly and stated 'quote' that platter being the icing on the cake with regard to the upgrades he had done to his Techie. It's likely the one I'll go for too :)
Stratmangler
20-05-2012, 08:47
Loads of us tried this, some liked it some didn't. It was agreed that too much blue tac ie: in all the holes in and around the magnet over cooked the pudding. Some liked the effect in some of the holes ie: a bit less application of blue tac. I tried it in some of the holes and all the holes, prefered the sound without any blue tac. I think blue tac will work for some but as Marco would put it, untimately it's a sticking plaster. If you can, funds permitting of course, go with a Funk or one of Mike New's platters. I've only heard good things about any of these over the stock platter and it's where I'll definately be going in due course :)
It ain't happening fellah.
Records played on my SL-1210 sound great as it is.
I'm not going to drop over a grand to make the sound just a little bit better :eyebrows:
Cost for it so far...
Deck (armless, but with OL Rega armboard) - £100
Mat - £25 of Ebay
External case and connectors (I rehoused the PSU) - Less than £20
Blutack - £2 for a couple of packs
Molex connector (I disabled the pitch control - I had one on an old PC motherboard
Sorbethane feet - came with it
Tweaked up RB250 (Incognito rewire/OL stub and counterweight) - already had this lying around unused
DNM Reson Reca - moved over from a Thorens TD125/SME 3009 improved
Band Aids - nothing, as I haven't applied any :eyebrows:
chris@panteg
20-05-2012, 08:55
It ain't happening fellah.
Records played on my SL-1210 sound great as it is.
I'm not going to drop over a grand to make the sound just a little bit better :eyebrows:
Cost for it so far...
Deck (armless, but with OL Rega armboard) - £100
Mat - £25 of Ebay
External case and connectors (I rehoused the PSU) - Less than £20
Blutack - £2 for a couple of packs
Molex connector (I disabled the pitch control - I had one on an old PC motherboard
Sorbethane feet - came with it
Tweaked up RB250 (Incognito rewire/OL stub and counterweight) - already had this lying around unused
DNM Reson Reca - moved over from a Thorens TD125/SME 3009 improved
Band Aids - nothing, as I haven't applied any :eyebrows:
Well done Chris :)
RobbieGong
20-05-2012, 09:10
Hey Chris, I aint knocking your tweeks so dont take it personal. I'm not loaded myself trust me hence I currently have been without vinyl for weeks because I'm struggling to raise the balance on an upgrade psu. The upgrade platter is a dream for me because i dont have £600.00 end of. My point re: the bluetac was that like a lot of things it works for some and not for others, I gave it a good try myself cause like you and others cost effective is important, afterall a 'fellah' aint flush mate :) As for Band Aids ? no comment !
I evaluated it and it sounded better.
Can't argue with that! Thanks
Stratmangler
20-05-2012, 09:24
Hey Chris, I aint knocking your tweeks so dont take it personal. I'm not loaded myself trust me hence I currently have been without vinyl for weeks because I'm struggling to raise the balance on an upgrade psu. The upgrade platter is a dream for me because i dont have £600.00 end of. My point re: the bluetac was that like a lot of things it works for some and not for others, I gave it a good try myself cause like you and others cost effective is important, afterall a 'fellah' aint flush mate :)
None of it was taken personally Robbie - it was just that you mentioned a couple of very expensive components in the same sentence.
I'm quite accepting of the fact that what suits me may not suit others ;)
Have you tried removing the stock PSU from under the platter and sticking it in an external box?
It's a very worthwhile exercise.
It ain't happening fellah.
Records played on my SL-1210 sound great as it is.
I'm not going to drop over a grand to make the sound just a little bit better :eyebrows:
Ha - bring your T/T with you next time you pop over, Chris, and we'll fit my Funk platter to it.
Then once you've heard the difference it makes, we'll see if you can say the above with a straight face! :D
;)
Marco.
Stratmangler
20-05-2012, 09:37
Ha - bring your T/T with you next time you pop over, Chris, and we'll fit my Funk platter to it.
Then once you've heard the difference it makes, we'll see if you can say the above with a straight face! :D
;)
Marco.
Now that sounds like a gauntlet thrown down :eyebrows:
chris@panteg
20-05-2012, 09:43
Now that sounds like a gauntlet thrown down :eyebrows:
Great idea , are you going to take Marco up on that Chris ? I think you should .
Stratmangler
20-05-2012, 09:59
Great idea , are you going to take Marco up on that Chris ? I think you should .
Yes :)
One thing I need to know Marco.
Is the height of platter taller than the stock unit?
I'll need to get a VTA adjuster if it is.
RobbieGong
20-05-2012, 12:53
None of it was taken personally Robbie - it was just that you mentioned a couple of very expensive components in the same sentence.
I'm quite accepting of the fact that what suits me may not suit others ;)
Have you tried removing the stock PSU from under the platter and sticking it in an external box?
It's a very worthwhile exercise.
Hi Chris no worries at all, I think I just really dont like the stock platter. By the way, I really admire your approach which takes in to consideration that money is an issue for a fair few of us and I'm one of those :( :lol: I did have the base Timestep psu but really felt I could do better hence the psu upgrade I'm three quarters of the way to paying off. Will probably take me a few more years to get the upgrade platter at this rate :eek: :lol:
Now that sounds like a gauntlet thrown down :eyebrows:
Consider it my duty, sir, to challenge your assertion with facts, rather than allowing it to remain as merely your wishful thinking! ;)
One thing I need to know Marco. Is the height of platter taller than the stock unit?
Yesh it is, baby, by a significant margin.
It'll also be interesting comparing both T/Ts, in their respective stages of modification, which will allow you to realise just how far, sonically, you can take this rather remarkable little turntable.
Marco.
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