View Full Version : Enhanced Digital Output App for Squeezebox Touch
magiccarpetride
11-04-2012, 17:26
There is a 3rd party app, "Enhanced Digital Output" (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?94512-Announce-Enhanced-Digital-Output-app-USB-Dac-and-192k-Digital-Ouput) available for the Squeezebox Touch player. It is brain dead easy to install this app, so in case you're using the Touch with an outboard DAC, I seriously recommend you try this (free) upgrade.
The stated purpose of the app is to offer enhanced digital output capabilities, such as feeding the USB DACs as well as turbo charging the Touch to play 192 kHz high resolution format. But the unintended side effect is that, according to my listening tests, it also improves the sound quality of any other format (be it 24/96 or 16/44.1). After installing this app, the sound became noticeably more full bodied, much more pleasant to listen to, with much reduced listening fatigue that so often plagues digital listening sessions.
Stratmangler
12-04-2012, 00:36
It is a good applet, isn't it?
I like what it does to the sound of my digital setup (Squeezebox Touch/Caiman DAC).
There seems to be a general improvement is sound quality across the board.
The only thing I can't experience is 24/192 files, as the Caiman doesn't handle them over S/PDIF. I do get clicking, and the appearance of playing, which usually means that the file is actually playing.
morris_minor
12-04-2012, 11:04
Thanks for the heads-up on this MCR :thumbsup:.
Dead easy to install, too. :)
magiccarpetride
12-04-2012, 17:13
It is a good applet, isn't it?
I like what it does to the sound of my digital setup (Squeezebox Touch/Caiman DAC).
There seems to be a general improvement is sound quality across the board.
The only thing I can't experience is 24/192 files, as the Caiman doesn't handle them over S/PDIF. I do get clicking, and the appearance of playing, which usually means that the file is actually playing.
I downloaded the modified kernel; seems like he has removed a layer of code in there. That may explain the sound improvements (my rule of thumb is: less bloat => more clarity).
Can't wait for Stan's Bushmaster so that I can compare the 192k files with 96k (I have a few from the 2l.no site). A buddy of mine who has a more advanced DAC did the comparison and says that to his ears 192k sounds more 'musical'. We'll see/hear;)
StanleyB
12-04-2012, 17:50
Would that be via optical or coax ;)?
magiccarpetride
12-04-2012, 17:59
Would that be via optical or coax ;)?
Coax.
pete_mac
13-04-2012, 00:03
I've applied this app to my SB Touch last night. All I need now is some time to have a listen to the darn thing!
My DAC isn't 192khz capable but some people are reporting a slight improvement in quality for all playback, so it will be interesting to see if I can hear a difference.
Also applied it yesterday over the top of the Soundcheck TT 3.0 mods. Still pretty simple:
Restart required because I had the tt -k option applied, which prevents ssh access
Enable the display (tt -d)
Follow Triode's instructions to install the new kernel
Reset the buffer back to a lower value (tt -b 3200)
Kill the display (tt -d)
Kill surplus processes (tt -k)
And listen
Didn't get much of a chance to see what SQ differences there were, but I would say no more than modest. I'll have a better listen over the w/e but don't think I'll have time to A-B.
Chris
electric beach
13-04-2012, 11:59
Another thanks to MCR for the heads up. Installed the app without issue in a few minutes last night, checked this morning and an unequivical thumbs up from me. :thumbsup:
It's really easy to make a switched comparison although it took the time to re-read the hard drive after reboot, but this is only for verification as the improvement is easily discernable. I'm only using standard red book, not high res and the author seems at great pains to express that this app is to enable high res dacs and claims no benefits to standard, but they are definately there in my system.
All the tweaks I've tried with the Touch have exaggerated the digital sheen, including my recent acquisition of the Nick Gorham/ Mains-R-Us power supply. I like the Squeezebox S-Booster from Mark Grant for the analogue presentation it brings, but it narrows the soundstage and sits on the dynamics a bit in the way that filters on a power amp do - not to the extent that it's a problem with many systems but it's noticeable on a bigger room filling set up.
Where the power supply has given an extended, huge soundstage and enhanced dynamics, this app has given improvement in areas that I all too rarely see quoted, namely tonal presentation, instrument timbre and the resulting musical and emotional connection - without any negative compromise effects.
If you use the Squeezebox Touch with any external Dac, I'd say it's an essential thing to try and is just what's needed to allow the full potential of the Touch. Thanks to Triode, the designer, for a very impressive piece of work.
magiccarpetride
13-04-2012, 17:14
Also applied it yesterday over the top of the Soundcheck TT 3.0 mods. Still pretty simple:
Restart required because I had the tt -k option applied, which prevents ssh access
Enable the display (tt -d)
Follow Triode's instructions to install the new kernel
Reset the buffer back to a lower value (tt -b 3200)
Kill the display (tt -d)
Kill surplus processes (tt -k)
And listen
Didn't get much of a chance to see what SQ differences there were, but I would say no more than modest. I'll have a better listen over the w/e but don't think I'll have time to A-B.
Chris
For some reason, after installing the Triode applet, and then adding TT3.0 on top of it, you cannot change the alsa buffer size. Yes, you can still go tt -b 3200, and the system will pretend to take it and it will reboot, but if you then go tt -s, you'll see that the buffer is stuck at 20000.
There is a workaround for that, but it's a bit too technical, so I won't bore you here...
magiccarpetride
13-04-2012, 17:26
If you use the Squeezebox Touch with any external Dac, I'd say it's an essential thing to try and is just what's needed to allow the full potential of the Touch. Thanks to Triode, the designer, for a very impressive piece of work.
As with any mod, the important part of the equation is the time needed to spend with the change, in order to evaluate it. I fell in love with this mod immediately, but later on wanted to make sure I'm not merely nursing the much dreaded 'expectation bias'. So I borrowed a friend's 'vanilla' Touch, and set it up as a parallel transport in my system. Now I was ready to do the side-by-side comparison.
Much to my surprise, I found that initially I tended to prefer the 'vanilla' Touch. I felt that the modded Touch somehow lacked something. The good news, to me at least, was that the two transports definitely sounded different, beyond any trace of a doubt. At least I don't think all that effort was in vain. But the problem was why was I prone to favor the plain vanilla box?
So I did some more comparative test listening. To cut the long story short, turned out that I was gravitating toward my crusty old habits, formed over the decades of listening to distorted, jittery digital music. Old habits die hard, and my ears have been accustomed to hearing that special 'digital nervousness' in the sound, which tends to introduce certain exaggerated presentation of the reproduced music.
With the modded Touch, this digital nervousness seems to have been somewhat tamed, and those digital artifacts that were responsible for creating the exaggerated effects have vanished. Because of that, the music now sounds less exaggerated, more natural, and I'm becoming aware of the need to adjust my expectations while going over the familiar old passages.
For some reason, after installing the Triode applet, and then adding TT3.0 on top of it, you cannot change the alsa buffer size. Yes, you can still go tt -b 3200, and the system will pretend to take it and it will reboot, but if you then go tt -s, you'll see that the buffer is stuck at 20000.
MCR, you're right. Just checked and it leaves it at 20000.
To add to the debate, I did some tests a while ago on CPU usage within the SBT (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=291108&postcount=79). A less thorough test (on the Pergolesi track) just now suggests lower CPU usage meaning more idle time. This fits in with what I think I read about Triode's approach of removing complexity.
Chris
magiccarpetride
13-04-2012, 21:27
MCR, you're right. Just checked and it leaves it at 20000.
To add to the debate, I did some tests a while ago on CPU usage within the SBT (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=291108&postcount=79). A less thorough test (on the Pergolesi track) just now suggests lower CPU usage meaning more idle time. This fits in with what I think I read about Triode's approach of removing complexity.
Chris
Interesting findings. Kind of speaks in support of Soundcheck's TT3.0 approach -- remove complexity by getting rid of any and all unnecessary processing. That's why I went all the way with his mods: I've disabled the screen, disabled the wi fi, disabled the analog outs, disabled the digital volume control, and killed all the daemon jobs. Now that SBT is running in the bare bones mode, the noise floor dropped and I'm getting a more transparent sound.
Didn't get much of a chance to see what SQ differences there were, but I would say no more than modest. I'll have a better listen over the w/e but don't think I'll have time to A-B.
First, please note I have the soundcheck TT 3 mods applied.
Listening to some well recorded classical, both red book and hi res and I must say that there is an improvement and it's more than modest on both formats. I can hear distinctly improved resolution and stronger tonal colours to give instruments a more accurate and natural sound. Playing Mozart Divertimenti and the standout improvements are to bass and tympani. Lovely. I would say the level of benefit is in the order of a cable upgrade (sticking my neck out here, I know).
I would have happily paid good money for this improvement, more than a SBT costs. As it is, it's free and is simple to apply with soundcheck TT 3 mods (or trivial without them).
Many thanks to Triode.
had gone back to my MHZs CD player but this mod is pretty impressive I might be changing my mind - many thanks for the heads up.
This mod certainly seems to change the sound of the SBT. It has altered the bass of my unit making complex rhythms pacier. It has also made the sound a bit smoother - not sure if this a good thing yet.
Very happy with this as it enables me to use my HRT Music Streamer II+ which is usb input only.
Now I have no need to use the mac (for my hifi stuff anyway) except to run the Squeezebox server. The SBT outputs into the HRT, and then into the pre. Wonderful!
Theadmans
17-04-2012, 17:54
My DAC is an old 1990s vintage Dacmagic so doesn't do 192 or even 96 bitrates.
However, I am still interested in this mod if it improves the SQ at lower bitrates.
My only question is - I have my SBT connected via it's analogue outputs to my integrated amp (for higher bitrate stuff) and via it's digital outputs to the Dacmagic (for lower bitrates). If I apply this mod does it disable the analogue outputs (meaning I will not be able to listen to high bitrate music) ?
Brynclarke
17-04-2012, 19:20
For some reason, after installing the Triode applet, and then adding TT3.0 on top of it, you cannot change the alsa buffer size. Yes, you can still go tt -b 3200, and the system will pretend to take it and it will reboot, but if you then go tt -s, you'll see that the buffer is stuck at 20000.
There is a workaround for that, but it's a bit too technical, so I won't bore you here...
Any views on whether it's best to install Soundcheck TT3.0 first, then the Triode applet, or the TT3.0 on top of the applet?
Hi Brynly,
Welcome to AoS :)
Please see this thread, and do the necessary, ASAP: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17333
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
magiccarpetride
17-04-2012, 20:39
Any views on whether it's best to install Soundcheck TT3.0 first, then the Triode applet, or the TT3.0 on top of the applet?
I would go with triode applet first.
Hi Guys,
Just out of interest are you all using the stock wall wart PSU with your touch's? Not trying to sell you one I am genuinely interested as to what improvements can be done to the touch in total for a technical paper I am writing for someone.
Hi Guys,
Just out of interest are you all using the stock wall wart PSU with your touch's? Not trying to sell you one I am genuinely interested as to what improvements can be done to the touch in total for a technical paper I am writing for someone.
David, I'm using your latest PSU and very pleased with it I am.:)
Chris
magiccarpetride
20-04-2012, 19:53
Hi Guys,
Just out of interest are you all using the stock wall wart PSU with your touch's? Not trying to sell you one I am genuinely interested as to what improvements can be done to the touch in total for a technical paper I am writing for someone.
Stock wall wart PSU that comes with the Touch is terrible. It's not possible to get the Touch to sound acceptable until you replace its PSU decent linear PSU.
I've just installed the Triode app and the improvement is impressive, especially in bass weight and timing. I can hear it quite clearly with Spotify streams in hi-bitrate, running into my modified Caiman.
Stock wall wart PSU that comes with the Touch is terrible. It's not possible to get the Touch to sound acceptable until you replace its PSU decent linear PSU.
My touch sounds freakin' great with the standard power supply. I'm really skeptical about getting a substantial upgrade by changing the supply.
magiccarpetride
20-04-2012, 22:36
My touch sounds freakin' great with the standard power supply. I'm really skeptical about getting a substantial upgrade by changing the supply.
I was of the exact same opinion before I've tried the upgrade. I couldn't believe how much difference a PSU makes for the Touch.
Ali Tait
20-04-2012, 22:51
Yep, it's a worthwhile improvement IMHO.
Yep, it's a worthwhile improvement IMHO.
+1
I been using the following
http://www.squeeze-upgrade.com/logitech-linear-power-supply-squeezebox-touch-p-1572.html
a worthwhile improvement IMHO
electric beach
23-04-2012, 08:54
Hi David
I've initially used the standard PSU but with a Vertex Jaya power conditioner next to it, but both via Squeezebox server on the laptop and directly with a powered HD (still my preference), the sound remained too obviously digital to me. I bought the S-Booster from Mark Grant to try and it really made a fundamental difference; the claim for a more anolgue sound is not a bad way to describe it, the soundstage and presentation cleans up but reduces in size and the bass becomes more authorative. However, the tiring digital sheen disappears and it's a much easier and accessable listen. A wider range of recording qualities are enjoyable but there is a reduction in the dynamics.
Recently I bought the power supply from you. Initially I wasn't so sure, I expected the effect of the S-Booster and more of it, but if anything the sound was even more obviously digital through the outputs to a dac, but the soundstage became huge. I added the S-Booster in the power chain and got something of a halfway house.
I've just build the Frugalhorn Mk3 speakers for a colleague and demonstrated them with a Touch and your power supply, no S-Booster and used the internal dac, powered by the Amptastic Mini-T. This sounded far better than I expected, the whole thing sounded in balance and matched, a really impressive and credible system. You're right to claim the performance increase concerning the internal dac.
Then the all powerful AOS struck again with a heads up on the Triode app. With this applied the digital outputs, which appeared to be shown up by adding your power supply, seemed to realise their potential. The digital glare was tamed but the increase in information and soundstage remained. I would consider this app essential if using your power supply with an external dac.
To put my comments and experiences in context, I have a pet drum to beat about the way "improvements" are too readily and easily judged on the basis of increased leading edges and more apparent "detail", resulting in a path towards a digital and tiring sound. Personally I found the Soundscheck mods and the remote processing on computer via Squeezebox Server to be in this camp.
Hope this helps your cause David.
magiccarpetride
23-04-2012, 16:49
To put my comments and experiences in context, I have a pet drum to beat about the way "improvements" are too readily and easily judged on the basis of increased leading edges and more apparent "detail", resulting in a path towards a digital and tiring sound. Personally I found the Soundscheck mods and the remote processing on computer via Squeezebox Server to be in this camp.
You bring up an interesting point (apologies if this is off topic): there seems to be the edge case where increasing the digital noise gets to be interpreted as sharpening of the details in the soundstage. I've certainly experienced this phenomenon on more than one occasion. However, initial excitement quickly gives way to fatigue, even headache. Dialling back the settings removes the sharp edge, resets the sound to a more pleasant, analog-like quality, but at the expense of losing some vivid details. Then, after a while, this arrangement becomes a bit too tame and boring, and then it's back to dialling up a little bit of digital harshness, to liven up the playback.
Seems like a veritable chasing the dragon situation.
electric beach
23-04-2012, 18:47
I saw your comments regarding the Triode app MCR. My current thinking is that if you can lower the noise floor then the details swim to the surface without being forced. It's another reason I use a sub; I find that reproducing the lowest frequencies (if they are kept in check) can throw the high frequencies out.
icehockeyboy
24-04-2012, 12:20
So, given that I can't do both, cos the wife is giving all my money to Laura Ashley's homeware dept, which gives the most "bang for my bucks"? A dac, with the triode "enhanced digital output" app on the Touch, or one of Dave's PSU's?
electric beach
24-04-2012, 15:26
Best Bang - the power supply.
Potentially Best Sound - the Dac and App, depending on the Dac.
icehockeyboy
24-04-2012, 16:28
Best Bang - the power supply.
Potentially Best Sound - the Dac and App, depending on the Dac.
Perhaps I ought to re phrase my question, cos in my way of thinking, "best bang for buck" actually translates as "potentially best sound" ! :scratch:
So, which of the two devices mentioned, either the PSU, or a dac and the App, ( assuming the cost will be approximately the same) will give me the best sound on my Touch?
I had a similar quandary when I owned a Beresford years back, when teamed with a cdp of 14 or so times the cost, it made no difference whatsoever to the sound, so it went in favour of the Theta, but as my OP says, oddly the Theta seemingly made no difference to the SQ of the Touch........
Steve & Valerie, lets assume a Beresford for the sake of argument.........
My Touch into my heavily modified Caiman sounds pretty good already. I can't comment on a better PSU yet, but watch this space :eyebrows:
electric beach
24-04-2012, 18:30
I'm watchin' :)
I have a spare touch PSU if anyone wants to borrow one (actually I have two spare), first come first served. Another satisfied customer commented today about his....
Hi,
I have now received the power supply from you and first impressions are very good. Radiohead's "Exit Music" is a track I often use when auditioning components as it has a lot of space around Thom York's vocal at the beginning of the track but becomes very complex and can sound muddled. It has always sounded very good through my CD DAC combination (Cyrus cd8x and DAC-XP), but the squeezebox, while enjoyable, used to sound a little flat in comparison. Your power supply seems to have remedied this and the squeezebox is now much much clearer and compares very well to the CD player. Playing The Eagles Hotel California in 24/96 (from HD Tracks) is an even better experience. I have this album on vinyl and it has always sounded better than the 24/96 download. I'm not sure I can say that anymore. The download sounds much more focused than it has on previous occasions. Is it better than the vinyl? Well, that's a difficult one. Let's just say I won't be so tempted to dig out the the black disc in future.
Of course, this could all be down to confirmation bias on my part (we Hi-Fi people do like to justify our purchases) but I'm inclined to think not. Especially as I heard some things on the Eagles album that I'd never heard before (and I've owned it on vinyl since it was first released).
Now excuse me while I go off and crank up Nirvana's Nevermind.
Oh, and thanks for a very nicely engineered product.
icehockeyboy
24-04-2012, 19:19
Go on then David, at this moment my lappy battery is dieing, so I will pm you in an hour or so with my details, thanks! :)
Here is the HiFi Choice review if anyone wants a read.
MCRU Squeezebox Power Supply (http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/siteuploads/touchreview.pdf)
BTW we have been working on a new PSU for the R-Dac, works a treat.
Mark Grant
24-04-2012, 19:34
That review says the price is £165, bit of a price increase to £195 by the looks of it.
Mark Grant
24-04-2012, 19:45
I been using the following
http://www.squeeze-upgrade.com/logitech-linear-power-supply-squeezebox-touch-p-1572.html
a worthwhile improvement IMHO
Thanks Dennis :)
Also on my site and costs a bit less than in Europe and with my 30 days returns policy, 100's have been bought by happy customers.
Linear power supply for Squeezebox Touch (http://markgrantcables.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76_77&products_id=267)
-
I brought mine before you became the UK distributor, very pleased with it.
That review says the price is £165, bit of a price increase to £195 by the looks of it.
There is a perfectly valid explanation for the price increase on the product page of my website Mark.:)
All the customers who bought it after the price went up have still said how good it is, to be honest I liken it to Tellurium Q cables, they cost a lot but when you listen to them the price is the last thing on your mind when your system is sounding so good.
icehockeyboy
25-04-2012, 10:11
Just had a chat with David from MCRU, what a nice helpful guy! :)
Canetoad
25-04-2012, 11:59
I made up my own PSU using a good quality toroidal transformer, hexfred diodes, Panasonic caps and an spower discrete regulator (from AudioUpgrades). I took it to Ali Tait's place to compare it to his MCRU PSU and, as much as I hate to admit it, the MCRU PSU definitely sounded better than my home brewed version. :doh:
So, if you're thinking fo getting one, I'd say go for it. It definitely makes the Touch sound a lot better! :)
Yup, its a good'un.
See my write up here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13588
Heard great things too about the one Mark G sells as well.
Got a problem with my Touch and would appreciate any pointers. I've removed the Enhanced sound plug-in and done several factory resets - everything goes as you'd expect it to go, no warning messages or anything odd, I choose the track I want to play, it appears on the screen as if it is playing, but it ain't - no sound, no nothing - and the progress bar along the bottom stays stuck at the left hand end. If I click on the progrss bar anywhere along it's length the progress marker immediately moves to that position but stays there. If I click on the double arrow 'next track' icon the track changes but the thing still refuses to play.
As an aside, Rescanning the memory usually immediately abhorts but sometimes continues for over an hour with no visible signs of progress.
What have I done? any ideas? :doh:
Dave.
Hi Dave,
sounds like the server softwares getting stuck?
Take it you restarted the server on your computer?
Was always the first thing I tried when things got stuck.
Worth restarting your PC if this doesn't do the trick.
icehockeyboy
25-04-2012, 19:32
I have often encountered this, or at least a very similar problem, and usually removing the power from the Touch, or pressing the reset button for at least 10 seconds sorts it>
Touch experts ( Gaz!) what causes this? It's most annoying!
Yep, FWIW I've had the problem a few times and either because of or despite my best efforts managed to get it back up again but this time it seems to have gone permanently on strike. The only thing (I think) I haven't tried is a complete deletion and reinstall of the Media Server program - that's next.
Pretty sure its software related Dave rather than your Touch.
Getting that to work (even if you need to reinstall) should do the trick.
Craig?
the software's not perfect - its the one thing about the Squeezebox way of doing things that i DONT miss :)
magiccarpetride
26-04-2012, 04:32
This mod certainly seems to change the sound of the SBT. It has altered the bass of my unit making complex rhythms pacier. It has also made the sound a bit smoother - not sure if this a good thing yet.
Newsflash: Triode (the guy who created this enhancement) has quietly released an upgrade to his app. I STRONGLY urge everyone to download it from this url:
http://code.google.com/p/triodeapplets/downloads/list
Once you download the upgrade (basically a folder containing 6 files), copy all six files to this location in your Touch:
/usr/share/jive/applets/EnhancedDigitalOutput/
Make sure you download the latest version (v0.5); in my system, the change is not at all subtle. I'd best describe it as enhanced precision and accuracy of the reproduced instruments/vocals. I've never heard anything like that on any other hi fi. The resolution and the clarity of tiny little musical details is something else!
I'd be curious to hear about other members' impressions. Those of you who have already tried this app and discovered that it does improve the quality of sound reproduction, you'll be even more pleased after this latest upgrade:)
pete_mac
26-04-2012, 05:02
Thanks for the update! I had a look at my third party apps via the Squeezebox and it told me that there was an update for the Enhanced Digital Output App (V 0.5) so updating it was a piece of cake :)
Thanks - I'll get that loaded tonight.
Just had a look on the Touch settings/ advanced/ Applet Installer and it had the update to 05 already to run. So done it and had a listen and it's absolutely fantastic. Very clear and enjoyable sound and I think an improvement over the previous version.
Regards
Chris
Theadmans
26-04-2012, 15:26
My DAC is an old 1990s vintage Dacmagic so doesn't do 192 or even 96 bitrates.
However, I am still interested in this mod if it improves the SQ at lower bitrates.
My only question is - I have my SBT connected via it's analogue outputs to my integrated amp (for higher bitrate stuff) and via it's digital outputs to the Dacmagic (for lower bitrates). If I apply this mod does it disable the analogue outputs (meaning I will not be able to listen to high bitrate music) ?
bump - can anyone tell me if this mod disables the analogue outputs of the Touch ?
morris_minor
26-04-2012, 16:21
bump - can anyone tell me if this mod disables the analogue outputs of the Touch ?
Triode's first post on the Squeezebox forum states:
4) Only one output can be selected at once, this means when a USB dac or the Digital Output are selected there will be no sound on the analog outputs.
Thanks for the update! I had a look at my third party apps via the Squeezebox and it told me that there was an update for the Enhanced Digital Output App (V 0.5) so updating it was a piece of cake :)
Being a bit of a numpty at times, I spent ages trying to get my web browser to open the Touch IP address - after several factory resets, updates etc I suddenly remember I should be using WinSCP - finally get into the Touch but the resets etc have lost the Enhanced Digital Output so I re-install it then I too discover the update files and the download are the same.
I should have read your post first it would have saved me a couple of hours of faffing
The update sounds good on initial listening.
I have also removed TT3.0 and installed EDO - what a difference! The glare (slight) has been removed, but more than that my feet have started tapping again.
A very worthwhile upgrade for so little work (and money of course).
This is with the standard wallwart supply, so when I get round to building John Swenson's psu it should get even better.
Just to put the above in context I have all my music stored on its own drive in AIFF format -so very little work for the SBTouch. This is attached to a Mac Mini and thence to a wired network which also reduces the work the SBT has to perform.
I am using the Digital Out (coax) to a Perpetual Technologies P3A dac.
I use my Touch with a wired interface outputting to my passive modded Caiman DAC via coax. I thought I'd share my experiences with EDO, Dynobot and Soundcheck's TT3.0 mods.
I first tried Triode's EDO 0.3 after reading this thread. I don't have 192 KHz content (or a DAC to handle it) but it still made a noticeable improvement to the sound - more clarity, detail and space.
Intrigued, I tried TT3.0 on top of EDO. Despite trying various buffer settings, I found the sound harsh and rather too veiled for my liking. Turning off the IR & screen and using the tt -k command seemed to make little difference in my system while compromising usability. Perhaps worst of all, it significantly slowed the performance of the Touch user interface especially accessing my largish music library. It got uninstalled.
I then tried Dynabot's patch to modify the process priorities, which at first listening made a difference (again with EDO 0.3). To experiment, I modified these interactively using the chrt command but, like some others have reported, I could not discern any difference at all. Interestingly, when I tried to hard-code new priorities in the etc/init.d/rcS file the priorities did not change even after a reboot. My guess is Triode has adopted Dynobot's priorities and these then override those in Dynobot's script.
Finally, the release of EDO 0.5 (somehow I missed 0.4) it is the best yet and just as easy to install (using the latest firmware). For those who want to tweak, you can still alter the buffer size and probably other settings by editing the EnhancedDigitalOutput.lua file in the /etc/squeezeplay/userpath/settings folder. I had found this worked with TT3.0 and also works with EDO alone. This appears to change the buffer size used by the jiva_alsa process. The smallest buffer size I could get is 4000, below that there is simply no sound. Apart from that, I honestly cannot hear any real difference in my system by changing the buffer size.
Thanks to Triode for his great work and everyone else for sharing their experimentation and suggestions in this thread.
electric beach
07-06-2012, 18:12
Anyone tried and have an opinion of V7? I liked the tone of V5 the best, but I'm staying on V6 for now.
magiccarpetride
07-06-2012, 18:44
Anyone tried and have an opinion of V7? I liked the tone of V5 the best, but I'm staying on V6 for now.
There's been a lot of complaints regarding the sound quality of V7, so I gave it a miss. Oddly enough, EDO creator (Triode) vehemently denies any possibility that there could be a difference in the sound quality between the two releases, but then again he also went on record claiming that his mod cannot possibly make any difference in sound quality, period. Later on, he started discussing those same 'phantom' differences.
Some people are weird...
Has anyone seen Triode's latest app for the Touch? Display Off is a screensaver that disables the screen drive electronics, turns off the backlight and eliminates the CPU effort in creating the scrolling display while listening to music. As soon as you command the Touch the display comes back on again.
Nice, and gets rid of the visual distraction, too.
I don't find the display at all distracting so can I ask if disabling it does anything to the SQ? If not, I think I'll give it a miss.
Dave.
The combined effect of the Display Off and EDO apps, Dave, definitely seem to lower the noise floor and enhanced definition. I wouldn't like to say that I can hear what Display Off on its own is doing, but I like the fact that the Touch is doing its streaming with minimum extraneous processes demanding CPU attention, and I don't need the display while I'm listening. The moment I use the remote, it lights up again anyway.
I don't find the display at all distracting so can I ask if disabling it does anything to the SQ? If not, I think I'll give it a miss.
Dave.
Your Touch up and running now Dave?
Your Touch up and running now Dave?
Sadly no, Gaz but I live in hope that one day it will be. I supect the problem may be that on my network I have the newest PC running Win7 but the others are running XP and when I set up the Win7 PC I managed to choose a network name that did not match the one the XP PCs and Touch are on. Consequently there does not seem to be much communication between the two networks.
The IP address of the XPs and Touch is 192.168.0.xxx and the HTPC (Win7) PC is 192.168.1.xxx
Don't know whether that makes sense or not :scratch: but if it does I've no idea how to change it. I have a friend, currently on holiday, who has offered to try and sort it out for me using TeanViewer.
Cheers,
Dave.
PS @ Martin:
Yes I've tried the EDO mods and agree that tey improve the SQ but I'll leave the Display as is for the moment.
Thanks.
You need the IP addresses to be in the same range and the workgroup name to be the same for all the PCs. Change the W7 PC to be 192.168.0.xxx and set the workgroup name (usually defaults to WORKGROUP) the same and all the machines will be able to see each other.
To change IP address, click on the network icon bottom-right and go to Open Network and Sharing Center | Change Adapter Settings, right-click on the LAN and Properties, Internet Protocol Version 4 | Properties and change the IP address, using one that is not already in use. Then you'll be laughing. ...or crying.
electric beach
18-08-2012, 21:19
Has anyone seen Triode's latest app for the Touch? Display Off is a screensaver that disables the screen drive electronics, turns off the backlight and eliminates the CPU effort in creating the scrolling display while listening to music. As soon as you command the Touch the display comes back on again.
Nice, and gets rid of the visual distraction, too.
Damn Martin, I wish I hadn't read this! :doh:
I had - note, had V6 installed. I couldn't see the Screensaver App and made the mistake of clicking Update Apps (thinking I was heading for a sub menu) and the bugger rebooted and installed V7. Now I see the new App option, which I probably don't need anyway because I already had it set that way from the original Touch display settings options.
V7 sounds bloody terrible in comparison, all sizzling treble and 2 dimensional digital hash. Where's the tone gone?! Where have the dynamics gone?! Where's the music!!
I'll play with the buffer settings and the new app but does anyone know how and if I can get V5 or V6 installed again?
:steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam::steam:
Oops, sorry Steve! I set mine for small buffers a while ago and I can't say that mine with v7 exhibits those problems. It sounds pretty smooth and detailed. I have no idea if you can go back a version level but I doubt it.
electric beach
18-08-2012, 21:43
Oops, sorry Steve! I set mine for small buffers a while ago and I can't say that mine with v7 exhibits those problems. It sounds pretty smooth and detailed. I have no idea if you can go back a version level but I doubt it.
:lol: No your fault Martin, I shouldn't have done it in such a hurry. It may be because it's only just booted up again. I'll try the small buffer and the new app, give it a chance but I did think that V5 was tonally superior to V6 even. Note that I'm 'only' using the SPDif out at standard frequency so any improvement I'm getting is all in my mind anyway apparently ;)
Has anyone seen Triode's latest app for the Touch? Display Off is a screensaver that disables the screen drive electronics, turns off the backlight and eliminates the CPU effort in creating the scrolling display while listening to music. As soon as you command the Touch the display comes back on again.
Nice, and gets rid of the visual distraction, too.
Hi Martin, I take it your referring to to 'Screen Off' screensaver option that's part of EDO v7...or are you referring to another applet? :)
Hi Martin, I take it your referring to to 'Screen Off' screensaver option that's part of EDO v7...or are you referring to another applet? :)
No, it's another applet called Display Off and installed separately from EDO in my Touch.
Just been playing around with EDO on the Touch into my Rega DAC.
First impressions are that running the Triode EDO applet is like lifting a veil from the Touch. Immediately it has elevated performance nearer to my custom built sever - its not exceeding it, but the differences are no longer night and day, in fact its much closer than I would have expected.
I firstly tried coax into the Rega, using one of Mark Grants Belden 1694A Digital Coax with Canare 75 ohm RCA connectors. As stated, it was like a veil had been lifted, very detailed presentation but after listening for a while I found it a little too detailed and forward, still much preferable to the Touch in 'stock' form, but a tad brighter than I am used to, which could possibly become fatiguing. However, switching to USB output into the Rega has smoothed this out and the sound is now more refined and full bodied with less graininess. It sounds very grown up indeed from USB and for £167.00 its nothing short of remarkable TBH :scratch:
So my Touch will be staying and as I intend using the USB for output as opposed to coax, I'm not concerned that it doesn't function as an input connection.
I just need a 'grown up' PSU now :eyebrows:
Just been playing around with EDO on the Touch into my Rega DAC.
First impressions are that running the Triode EDO applet is like lifting a veil from the Touch. Immediately it has elevated performance nearer to my custom built sever - its not exceeding it, but the differences are no longer night and day, in fact its much closer than I would have expected.
I firstly tried coax into the Rega, using one of Mark Grants Belden 1694A Digital Coax with Canare 75 ohm RCA connectors. As stated, it was like a veil had been lifted, very detailed presentation but after listening for a while I found it a little too detailed and forward, still much preferable to the Touch in 'stock' form, but a tad brighter than I am used to, which could possibly become fatiguing. However, switching to USB output into the Rega has smoothed this out and the sound is now more refined and full bodied with less graininess. It sounds very grown up indeed from USB and for £167.00 its nothing short of remarkable TBH :scratch:
So my Touch will be staying and as I intend using the USB for output as opposed to coax, I'm not concerned that it doesn't function as an input connection.
I just need a 'grown up' PSU now :eyebrows:
Hi Tim, I got mine for £139 in an amazon 'lightning sale', now have the SBooster PSU from MG, upgraded to triode's EDO v 7, currently running it into an M-Dac (A0.8 @ 180) via USB with a Belkin HUB & a 1/2 meter kimber USB...and jolly nice it sounds too ;)
My final OCD piece should be arriving this week, a USB galvanic isolator, I'm sure there'll be no difference...apart from in my brain :)
I've also used it with a Belkin Pure/White coax, and I think my findings were similar to yours, whilst very good I'm sticking with the USB option.
P.S. Martin, It looks like 'Screen Off' comes bundled within EDO 7
Ah ok, thanks guys. Tim - glad you've heard better from it now.
Ah ok, thanks guys. Tim - glad you've heard better from it now.
Yes its shaping up well at the moment, lots of tweaking and testing to go though by shutting stuff down - I know many folk think this is pointless, but it made a difference on my server, so the principle is the same here, after all its still only a computer. I firmly believe in less is more - I have the display off now too ;)
Oddly I wasn't expecting the USB output into the Rega to better the coax, but it certainly does to my ears, a fuller and more rounded sound with a more cohesive soundstage. Via coax it was jumping out too much.
Nice one. I can't use USB out as I switched from Caiman to the Bushmaster. However, I too have shut down everything non-essential and the sound is really excellent and all that I need for streaming.
I'm still experimenting with SoX for best file format. So far, upsampled 24/96 files sound rather good.
P.S. Martin, It looks like 'Screen Off' comes bundled within EDO 7
Sorry Martin, I'm talking through my posterior...you are correct the 'Display Off' is indeed another applet, and completely turns off the screen when you have set 'Screen Off' as your screen saver...sorry for the confusion
And thanks for getting me set up correctly...eventually :)
Good to know, Will. I'm running EDO 7 and Display Off and it goes to sleep rather nicely, with a low noise floor and high level of detail. I don't want for the display when I'm listening and usually set all my equipment to suppress their displays while playing.
Good to know, Will. I'm running EDO 7 and Display Off and it goes to sleep rather nicely, with a low noise floor and high level of detail. I don't want for the display when I'm listening and usually set all my equipment to suppress their displays while playing.
Ditto, and as I've set 'screen off' for the Play, Pause, and Off screensavers, and I control everything via SqueezeCommander on my phone it should never come on :cool:
Just done setting up a Touch and Edo mod.
Now running USB out from the Touch into my Caiman usb - sounds great.
Not playing 96k tracks though...?
Works great up to 44k but shows 96k tracks as "Unsupported Sample Rate"
Looking at the EDO settings Digital Output > USB > Rates:
shows as 32000,44100,48,000....but no 96000.
The Caiman definately does 96k so colour me confused?
I really like the sound improvement using EDO via USB, but how can I get my 96k files to play!!!
Anyone running 96k files from Touch into Caiman?
Any ideas?
thanks. :)
Stratmangler
08-09-2012, 21:30
Try using the SPDIF.
The Caiman via USB is the limiting factor at play here.
no problems playing 96k by spdif Chris its just that the Touch sounds a fair bit better playing through its Usb/Edo app.
Been a while since I dabbled with the Touch, I remember there's a way to get it to automatically upsample/downsample flacs using a config file...using sox I think.
custom.convert.conf I think it is?
That's my mission, get 96k files (and the few 192k albums I have) to play through the Touch's USB into the Caiman!
Sounds better than spdif...just spent 20 mins comparing!
Ali Tait
08-09-2012, 21:43
Still not as good as the server though?
no, quite a bit away from the server actually..
Been playing around with some new software tweaks and hardware stuff inside the server, cleaner power for the USB feeding the Vlink...making some good progress actually...just tinkering with some ideas.
The Touch is for the bedroom system.
Ali Tait
08-09-2012, 23:53
Cool, good to know.
Covenant
09-09-2012, 12:25
The Touch is for the bedroom system? Does that mean you won't be talking to the likes of me an' Dave any more Gaz?:(
making some good progress actually...just tinkering with some ideas.
Interesting :eyebrows:
The Touch is for the bedroom system? Does that mean you won't be talking to the likes of me an' Dave any more Gaz?:(
Whit you on about man..?
Been emailing Dave a lot, where you been? :ner:
So I'm back to Caiman dac and SB Touch..
having problems with the EDO mod playing 24/96 into the Dac (it only does 16/44 thru USB) so need help!
..just like old times..:)
Interesting :eyebrows:
indeed.
Stratmangler
09-09-2012, 12:48
Whit you on about man..?
Been emailing Dave a lot, where you been? :ner:
So I'm back to Caiman dac and SB Touch..
having problems with the EDO mod playing 24/96 into the Dac (it only does 16/44 thru USB) so need help!
..just like old times..:)
The limiting factor is the DAC.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=360315&postcount=4
I know Chris, bit of a bummer as the Touch sounds better played through its USB (no 24/96) than its SPDIF (24/96)
Trying to get the Touch to automatically downsample to 16/44 before sending to USB (custom.config.conf file) but so far no luck.
Asked over on the SB forums, see what happens.
Dont really want to go back to the SPDIF to be honest, music is flatter with not as much immediacy and detail.
Might end up just making a copy of the hires stuff in a seperate folder and downsampling it in Jriver and playing those.
Less faffing about.
Stratmangler
09-09-2012, 13:12
I know Chris, bit of a bummer as the Touch sounds better played through its USB (no 24/96) than its SPDIF (24/96)
Trying to get the Touch to automatically downsample to 16/44 before sending to USB (custom.config.conf file) but so far no luck.
Asked over on the SB forums, see what happens.
Dont really want to go back to the SPDIF to be honest, music is flatter with not as much immediacy and detail.
Might end up just making a copy of the hires stuff in a seperate folder and downsampling it in Jriver and playing those.
If the USB sounds better than the SPDIF then there's something else at play.
I can't hear any difference between using the HiFace2 via the USB (which is asynchronous) and the Touch's own SPDIF.
There's nowt wrong with the Touch hardware.
Are you running LMS on a separate server?
If so try removing the EDO, and you should find all files being transcoded on the fly down to something that the interface can cope with.
yeah, running LMS on separate server.
Transcoding done on server not native on the Touch.
Spent about half hour last night AB'ing them, USB via EDO sounded better than spdif to me.
No question.
The Touch is for the bedroom system? Does that mean you won't be talking to the likes of me an' Dave any more Gaz?:(
It was Dave that put a shout out on another forum for anyone selling a Touch at a reasonable price.
Got a 6 month old one for £80, still under warranty.
bargain. :)
Thats why I'm looking into the EDO mods.
Covenant
09-09-2012, 13:43
It was Dave that put a shout out on another forum for anyone selling a Touch at a reasonable price.
Got a 6 month old one for £80, still under warranty.
bargain. :)
Thats why I'm looking into the EDO mods.
Brilliant! I still love mine but have never tried the USB connection. Getting the SPDIF cable to it was hard enough.
Lets hope LMS will operate for long enough so that a viable alternative to the Touch comes along.
yeah, hope so.
I think all the music stored on your server will still be ok, its just the online stuff I guess that will go down the swanee.
There's such a huge open source following for the squeezebox stuff, I cant see it fading away quietly....
The EDO/USB mods are worth trying Jerry, 16/44 sounds better to me than Spdif.
No hires stuff using a Caiman, I'm looking into a solution for that though.
well worth a punt in my book.
Spent about half hour last night AB'ing them, USB via EDO sounded better than spdif to me.
No question.
That's exactly what I found as well Gary as I reported in post #78;
I firstly tried coax into the Rega, using one of Mark Grants Belden 1694A Digital Coax with Canare 75 ohm RCA connectors. As stated, it was like a veil had been lifted, very detailed presentation but after listening for a while I found it a little too detailed and forward, still much preferable to the Touch in 'stock' form, but a tad brighter than I am used to, which could possibly become fatiguing. However, switching to USB output into the Rega has smoothed this out and the sound is now more refined and full bodied with less graininess. It sounds very grown up indeed from USB and for £167.00 its nothing short of remarkable TBH
There was no question that the EDO USB output was far superior than the coax output. But as it couldn't get anywhere near my server on performance and because of the faulty USB input, it went back to Amazon and has been refunded now. Shame really, as I really wanted it to work for me, but there were too many areas it lacked in for my usage. Still a great bit of kit mind you, but nowhere near as proficient as a custom built server.
I'm hopeful Logitech under the UE product line will introduce an improved version as there is no doubt the Touch has huge potential if they can iron out its minor shortcomings, it wouldn't take much at all and it could I reckon take on and beat most home built servers, it just needs the right software as the user interface together with the third party Android apps to control it are already well sorted.
personally I reckon the Touch has been tweaked about as much as it can..192k output via usb????
fantastic.
That said, it doesn't get close to my server either, but hey ho.
My last Touch had a linear PSU and all that jazz, great but not as good.
I tried getting around the 24/96 limitation of the Caiman by plugging the Touch USB into the Vlink2, thinking I could use the coax from the Vlink into the Caiman.
Unfortunately no dice, I think EDO mod needs a direct link with the USB of a dac.
In the settings you can see the useable sample rates..this has to come direct from the dac I guess.
Covenant
09-09-2012, 14:35
Have you used a high quality USB cable Gaz? I ask because my Mike Homar SPDIF cable is superb and it would be a shame to buy a sonically inferior cable.
Have you used a high quality USB cable Gaz? I ask because my Mike Homar SPDIF cable is superb and it would be a shame to buy a sonically inferior cable.
Tried it with a chiepie usb that came with my printer and a better quality one...both better.
The coax I was using was a Supra Trico with silver wbt plugs.
just try it man, see what you think! :)
Covenant
09-09-2012, 15:05
Will do boss! :)
Tried it with a chiepie usb that came with my printer and a better quality one...both better.
The coax I was using was a Supra Trico with silver wbt plugs.
just try it man, see what you think! :)
Hi Gaz, are you connecting via a USB hub, or directly to the Touch's USB out, I'm running mine via a hub, into my M-Dac...without the hub I had drop-out issues
Direct connection Will between Touch USB and Caiman.
I read that the Mdac needs a usb hub (summit to do with USB1 vs USB2 dacs) to play 24/96.
Dont know about the dropouts, I know a lot of niggles have been ironed out with the latest MDAC firmware?
Direct connection Will between Touch USB and Caiman.
I read that the Mdac needs a usb hub (summit to do with USB1 vs USB2 dacs) to play 24/96.
That's the fellow...works fine with a USB powered hub :)
That's exactly what I found as well Gary as I reported in post #78;
There was no question that the EDO USB output was far superior than the coax output. But as it couldn't get anywhere near my server on performance and because of the faulty USB input, it went back to Amazon and has been refunded now. Shame really, as I really wanted it to work for me, but there were too many areas it lacked in for my usage. Still a great bit of kit mind you, but nowhere near as proficient as a custom built server.
I'm hopeful Logitech under the UE product line will introduce an improved version as there is no doubt the Touch has huge potential if they can iron out its minor shortcomings, it wouldn't take much at all and it could I reckon take on and beat most home built servers, it just needs the right software as the user interface together with the third party Android apps to control it are already well sorted.
Doubtful from what I'm reading on SB forums...
Think Squeezebox is end of line.
Which is a shame. :rolleyes:
Covenant
09-09-2012, 17:39
Tried a USB cable.
At first I was not at all impressed and was about to rip the cable out when I noticed there was a variety of options in Triode's menu. When I switched to USB 1 workaround and default buffer settings I got a huge improvement in clarity. Top notes-cymbals etc sound lovely and shimmery.
What settings are you using?
Hi Jerry
Had a look at my settings, and tried some different ones.
This is what works best for me...
USB No1 Workaround - NO, sounds more shut in than off.
Kernel Idle - NO, subtle loss of detail with it on. (expected the opposite)
BUFFER TUNING
I used the default settings and compared the others to it.
Turns out I prefer the Defaulty to the rest of them.
Clearer more 3d sound with a bit more drive and clarity in the bass than the rest.
Well that was a fun half hour! :)
Covenant
09-09-2012, 20:50
Hmmm :mental: I will have another play with the settings tomorrow night. I have to admit Gaz, you are right about USB/EDO. A step up in quality. Have to get a better USB cable though!
Hmmm :mental: I will have another play with the settings tomorrow night. I have to admit Gaz, you are right about USB/EDO. A step up in quality. Have to get a better USB cable though!
Glad I insisted you try Jerry. :)
Worth looking at the EDO mod thread on Squeezebox forum to see what they think over there.
In fact, I'm off to do just that...
Look no further than one of these...
http://www.furutech.com/a2008/product2.asp?prodNo=380
This one saw off a Wireworld cable at £100+
This one about £45 for 0.6m.
Well worth it.
Ali Tait
09-09-2012, 21:05
The TQ USB is even better, albeit at a cost.
Bluedroog
09-09-2012, 22:52
Not sure why I haven't tried this before, just listening now and there is an improvement. Certainly at the top end there is a touch more transparency, as described by described by others sounds such as cymbles have that extra bit of shimmer, I'm impressed. Great free upgrade!
Not sure why I haven't tried this before, just listening now and there is an improvement. Certainly at the top end there is a touch more transparency, as described by described by others sounds such as cymbles have that extra bit of shimmer, I'm impressed. Great free upgrade!
That's my findings too, a more relaxed effortless sound but with more detail, particularly at the top end.
Bass bounces along better too.
Better than it was, but not as good as the server though.
squeezethatbuffalo
09-12-2012, 03:06
Curiouser and curiouser!
Gaz, do you mind sharing a bit more about your music server? I find my tweaked SBT to be a great transport, and it bettered my pc server that used a pricey RME soundcard for its digital output.
I knew that the pc server has plenty of untapped potential, but I had neither the technical skills or talent to realize that.
Please, let me pick your brains about taming the beast ;)
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